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Thread: Karma Automotive LLC sues Reimagined Automotive LLC

  1. #51
    Senior Member DMC-81's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malevy View Post
    If we were having a discussion about quality of customer experience, then it would make sense for you to defend them with your experiences, but that is not the case. We are discussing issues related to intellectual property. Do you have any experience with DMCH, or DMCFL that relates to intellectual property? Why do you defend all aspects of DMCH/DMCFL without knowledge of the specific topic we are discussing? To me, that sounds like a fan boy mindset. Not meant to be insulting, just calling it like I see it. Consider the possibility that your positive experience dealing with DMCFL has zero impact on the unrelated IP discussion, for that matter I see Tony as a franchise owner and not really part of the IP discussion. Even if you are signing your posts with you real name, that does not change the possibility of a bit of transference going on as you seem to be aligned with DMCFL and therefore (may) have an ulterior motive.

    Again, I don't understand why so many people have issues separating unrelated topics. The DMCH guys could solve peace in the middle east, and I will still call them out on what they have done with respect to the DeLorean intellectual property.

    Burger King whopper is great! But, I really don't like their french fires... So, am a fan of BK? or am I "likely slanted against the company"?

    The DML is a great source for information, including some of the history (I find it hard to believe you have read all of it), but there is more information that has not been made public. If/When it is, I think it will make the situation more clear BUT I doubt it will change any minds but will hopefully correct the history. It is like Trump supporters watching the January 6 hearing and changing their minds, it will never happen. Too many people have a problem admitting they are (or, were) wrong.
    Marc,
    I am not conflating topics. My responses to the IP topic stand on their own. Yes, I do have experience with DMC on IP. They have registered trademarks and are running a business using them, so I ask permission for any use of them in the club.

    It has nothing to do with fandom. Thats your accusation. I already explained the why a couple times, and I have been transparent. I don't care if you don't like my responses.

    Look, you do you as they say, and we can agree to disagree. I'm not here to change your mind or make it personal.
    Dana

    1981 DeLorean DMC-12 (5 Speed, Gas Flap, Black Interior, Windshield Antenna, Dark Gray)
    Restored as "mostly correct, but with flaws corrected". Pictures and comments of my restoration are in the albums section on my profile.
    1985 Chevrolet Corvette, Z51, 4+3 manual
    2006 Dodge Magnum R/T (D/D)
    2010 Camaro SS (Transformers Edition)

  2. #52
    Administrator Ron's Avatar
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    And On The Lighter Side...

    Quote Originally Posted by DMC-81 View Post
    I have a very good idea of who these unnamed posters are, and why they are not signing their name, but I'll leave it at that. That's their choice.;
    Quote Originally Posted by gullwingD View Post
    I'll give you 3 guesses, go ahead...
    (See my avatar).

    Quote Originally Posted by MrChocky View Post
    My car runs.
    Sounds like...Steve Rice?

    ================

    To all- While I don't see where anyone has really crossed "the line", it seems like a lot of toes are lining up on it.
    Please keep things 'impersonal'...

    Thanks!

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron View Post

    Sounds like...Steve Rice?
    Perhaps; but don't forget, IWACD.

  4. #54
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    Thanks for inspiring my latest blog entry.

    https://malevy-dmc.blogspot.com/2022...-delorean.html
    __________________________________________________ ____________________
    Got any new Purflux oil filters? I may want to buy them.
    Learn about Vin 01860 with a Legend Industries engine: https://malevy-dmc.blogspot.com/2022...oDeLorean.html
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  5. #55
    Senior Member Rich's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BladeBronson View Post
    Oh come on! I think they've made some mistakes in the last 25 years and given your username, there's one in particular that we both agree was a shit move. But a blight? Ordering parts from DMC is a straight-up pleasure. The website is easy to use, the parts diagrams are excellent, the products are shipped fast and packaged well.
    Additional to these positive comments I'm impressed with DMCH's commitment to reproducing formerly-NLA parts for the owner community.
    Just a few such examples:

    - Windshield (in 2 flavors, even)
    - Rear finisher screen (made in black ABS to factory specs)
    - Door seals, improved
    - Steering rack

    Yes, other D vendors source repro parts, too.
    We're lucky to have them all (ask an owner of an early 80s Lotus how the parts supply is for their car).
    March '81, 5-speed, black interior

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rich View Post
    Additional to these positive comments I'm impressed with DMCH's commitment to reproducing formerly-NLA parts for the owner community.
    Just a few such examples:

    Which of those examples required that they use the name "DeLorean Motor Company"??
    __________________________________________________ ____________________
    Got any new Purflux oil filters? I may want to buy them.
    Learn about Vin 01860 with a Legend Industries engine: https://malevy-dmc.blogspot.com/2022...oDeLorean.html
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  7. #57
    Senior Member Drive Stainless's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malevy View Post
    Which of those examples required that they use the name "DeLorean Motor Company"??
    None. But if they don't use the name for their business, another entity will, and that entity may have a competitive advantage by using that name and all of the nostalgic 80s feels that come with it. The name is advantageous because it makes it easier for consumers to find DeLorean parts and services. Marketplace efficiency is improved by DMCH's use of this name versus using the name, such as, "The Marc Levy Motorboating Company" to find DeLorean parts and services.

    The law supports the proposition that one shouldn't be able to use a name in the marketplace that will cause confusion as to the source of goods or services with other marketplace participants. Marc Levy Motor Company selling mopeds shouldn't be able to participate in the marketplace with Marc Levy Motors selling mopeds. Reasonable?

    You don't seem confused that DMCH is the original DMC. Is anyone confused? The story how Wynne bought Kapac's inventory is widespread. But even if it wasn't, there is no other DeLorean Motor Company participating in the marketplace. There is only one. So for this additional reason, there is no confusion as to the source of goods or services.

    Should Volvo be allowed to use the name Volvo, even though Volvo is really Geely, which was really Ford before that? These are completely different entities, as here, where DMCH and the original DMC are also completely different entities. Same name, though.

  8. #58
    Daily Driver ssdelorean's Avatar
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    A related article originally from San Antonio Express News:
    https://www.expressnews.com/sa-inc/a...y-17393564.php

    Text below for when above link does not work.



    Taylor: The competition over the DeLorean’s legacy heats up


    August was a big month for the DeLorean car company’s legacy. Aug. 18 was a particularly big day on both ends of the country. On the West Coast, San Antonio-based DeLorean Motors Reimagined hosted a public launch of its Alpha5 concept car at the 70th Annual Pebble Beach Concours d’Elegance auto show.

    Also that day, in New Hampshire, Kathryn DeLorean, daughter of original founder John Z. DeLorean, proposed a separate and unaffiliated addition to the DeLorean lore. She is behind the DeLorean Legacy Project, an educational engineering center with plans to build a signature tribute car, the Model JZD, initially designed in 2020.

    The former is a for-profit business, while the latter is a historical tribute and nonprofit educational project. Both are attempts to define what this car brand meant in the past and will mean in the future. What is DeLorean’s legacy?

    Ever since its prominent role in the iconic Michael J. Fox-led “Back to the Future” movie franchise, the DeLorean brand has operated in a space between the past and future. Any DeLorean-related project must reckon with the seemingly incongruent notion that a car bearing that name is a 40-year-old throwback marketing itself as a blast into the future.

    The DeLorean of our imagination embodies this paradox — a retro-futuristic manifestation.

    The folks at DeLorean Motors Reimagined know this. The “5” in Alpha5, the prototype they debuted last week at Pebble Beach, builds on a fictitious history that the company devised of having imagined prior models — Alphas 2, 3 and 4 — in prior decades. It’s a cool made-up retconned legacy.

    Their signature tagline — “The Future Was Never Promised” — to me sounds somewhat apologetic, as if anticipating and responding to a disappointed fan who objects to their vision of the future for DeLorean.

    Unfortunately, or maybe inevitably, it’s proving hard to satisfy hardcore fans who want both retro and futuristic styling. So far, it’s gone over about as well as did Hayden Christiansen’s portrayal of Anakin Skywalker in the Star Wars prequels.

    Delorean Motors Reimagined’s Instagram page contains relentless complaints and accusations about the Alpha5: that it’s not a real DeLorean, that it clearly reused a 2019 design for a concept car called the DaVinci, that it looks like a Tesla, and that it doesn’t honor the DeLorean’s design legacy. To satisfy your own schadenfreude, visit their social media.



    At odds over IP

    The most immediate challenge to Delorean Motors Reimagined’s business goals hit it a week before Pebble Beach. Southern California-based electric carmaker Karma Automotive sued the San Antonio company and its top executives, accusing them of stealing intellectual property and breaching nondisclosure agreements they signed as Karma employees in 2021. To have a future, they will need to address this past in court.

    As one dives deeper into the obsessions of DeLorean fans online, questions of intellectual property rights and legitimacy get even more convoluted. By the time it publicly launched in 2022, DeLorean Motors Reimagined had become part of a joint venture with Delorean Motor Company of Texas, based in Humble. That company, led by Stephen Wynne, years ago staked its claim as the successor to John DeLorean’s bankrupted firm by buying DeLorean car parts and then acquiring rights to the name, logo and design through litigation.

    Sally Baldwin DeLorean, John DeLorean’s fourth wife at the time of his death in 2005 and administrator of his estate, sued DeLorean Motor Company in 2014 alleging improper use of intellectual property and again in 2018. A settlement in 2018 — for an undisclosed amount — left DeLorean Motor Company in a strong position to claim rights to the DeLorean name, brand, imagery and logo, which it has shared as part of its joint venture with DeLorean Motors Reimagined.



    The daughter and designer

    Kathryn DeLorean, who believes her father’s widow cheated her out of proceeds from John DeLorean’s estate, has embarked on her own attempt to establish a DeLorean legacy by working with a fan-friendly designer.

    In November and December 2020, freelance automobile designer Angel Guerra of Spain launched a COVID-era fantasy idea: A 2021 DeLorean tribute to the car’s 40th anniversary.

    Guerra’s designs caught fire among DeLorean online superfans. As Guerra tells it, he shared his vision with Delorean Motor Company, as well as business plans for building a prototype within a year. When DeLorean Motor Company declined to pursue the idea, Guerra returned to his regular job working on European auto designs.

    So Guerra was surprised to hear a few months later that the Humble-based company was pursuing a new futuristic electric car joint venture with DeLorean Motors Reimagined. Guerra said to me about the venture, formed a few months after he pitched to Wynne: “what a coincidence.”

    Guerra subsequently joined forces with Kathryn DeLorean to offer a different chapter to the vehicle’s legacy. They hope students of design and engineering will learn from building his concept car, the Model JZD.

    Guerra and Kathryn DeLorean have noted that the DeLorean Legacy Project is not affiliated with the two Texas companies bearing the DeLorean name — an acknowledgment that the joint venture has the rights to the relevant trademarks and is trying to build a new electric car company.

    In launching her legacy project, Kathryn DeLorean stresses that she’s not competing commercially with the fledgling automakers: “I am a DeLorean. I’m making engineers, not engines.”

    But while they won’t be competing in the automobile market, they seem to be squaring off in the marketplace of ideas to determine which will become part of the DeLorean’s legacy. Time and those who are emotionally invested in that legacy will tell whether either prevails.
    Shannon Y
    www.ohiodeloreans.com
    www.facebook.com/ohiodeloreans
    ---
    1st angle drive - 58,027 miles (20 years) -- original
    2nd angle drive - 48,489 miles (21 years) -- original from donor
    3rd angle drive - 26,572 miles (2 years 3 months) -- DMCH
    4th angle drive - 21,988 miles (1 year 11 months) -- DMCH
    5th angle drive - 7,137 miles (10 months 2 days) -- DMCH
    6th angle drive - OVER 113,704 miles and counting (OVER 13 yr 1 month & counting) -- new Martin Gutkowski unit
    over 245K miles

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drive Stainless View Post
    None. But if they don't use the name for their business, another entity will, and that entity may have a competitive advantage by using that name and all of the nostalgic 80s feels that come with it. The name is advantageous because it makes it easier for consumers to find DeLorean parts and services. Marketplace efficiency is improved by DMCH's use of this name versus using the name, such as, "The Marc Levy Motorboating Company" to find DeLorean parts and services.
    Owners had no problem finding parts and services prior to 1995. DeLoreanOne, DeLorean Motor Center both are clearly DeLorean vendors, but not trying to look like the original company. How the heck has PJ Grady survived all these years (an original dealer!) without the word "DeLorean" in their company name?

    Marketplace efficiency is improved by use of the name BECAUSE most people think they are the same company from 1981. What other possible reason would there be?

    Quote Originally Posted by Drive Stainless View Post
    The law supports the proposition that one shouldn't be able to use a name in the marketplace that will cause confusion as to the source of goods or services with other marketplace participants. Marc Levy Motor Company selling mopeds shouldn't be able to participate in the marketplace with Marc Levy Motors selling mopeds. Reasonable?
    As I said already, it does cause confusion. No idea how in 1995 they got away with registering a company name that already existed simply by adding "Texas" to the end of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Drive Stainless View Post
    You don't seem confused that DMCH is the original DMC. Is anyone confused? The story how Wynne bought Kapac's inventory is widespread. But even if it wasn't, there is no other DeLorean Motor Company participating in the marketplace. There is only one. So for this additional reason, there is no confusion as to the source of goods or services.
    I disagree. I am not confused because I lived through it. Most people are confused, and do not know the history of how the current DMCH came to be. You can read all about it in my blog.
    https://malevy-dmc.blogspot.com/

    Quote Originally Posted by Drive Stainless View Post
    Should Volvo be allowed to use the name Volvo, even though Volvo is really Geely, which was really Ford before that? These are completely different entities, as here, where DMCH and the original DMC are also completely different entities. Same name, though.
    Not familiar with the Volvo story, but did some new entity just show up one day and say "I am Volvo now"? Or was there a transaction such that the name was transferred to a new entity?
    __________________________________________________ ____________________
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  10. #60
    Senior Member DMC-81's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malevy View Post
    Owners had no problem finding parts and services prior to 1995. DeLoreanOne, DeLorean Motor Center both are clearly DeLorean vendors, but not trying to look like the original company. How the heck has PJ Grady survived all these years (an original dealer!) without the word "DeLorean" in their company name?

    Marketplace efficiency is improved by use of the name BECAUSE most people think they are the same company from 1981. What other possible reason would there be?



    As I said already, it does cause confusion. No idea how in 1995 they got away with registering a company name that already existed simply by adding "Texas" to the end of it.



    I disagree. I am not confused because I lived through it. Most people are confused, and do not know the history of how the current DMCH came to be. You can read all about it in my blog.


    Not familiar with the Volvo story, but did some new entity just show up one day and say "I am Volvo now"? Or was there a transaction such that the name was transferred to a new entity?
    Marc,

    In all my experience in the community, even with new owners, no one is confused about DMC. That's utterly ridiculous. You may want to stop promoting this mantra, because is starting to sound purposefully defamatory/ libelous.

    Following the logic and writing style of your "blog"...What's in a name? :

    Does the family have a claim against DeLorean (Performance) Industries for using the DeLorean name?

    On clarity in the marketplace: Why did Josh Bengston change the name of his business from "McFly Motorsports" to the current name which has DeLorean as the first word?

    Speaking of confusion, the only confusion that I heard from the community is with Josh naming his performance levels "Spec 1,2,3" versus DMC's Stage 1,2,3. The opinion is that it is just a rip off of DMC's naming convention. Maybe that was the goal?

    I totally agree with what Matt said above, and I'll remind you that he is an IP attorney. What is your qualification again?
    Last edited by DMC-81; 08-26-2022 at 03:34 AM.
    Dana

    1981 DeLorean DMC-12 (5 Speed, Gas Flap, Black Interior, Windshield Antenna, Dark Gray)
    Restored as "mostly correct, but with flaws corrected". Pictures and comments of my restoration are in the albums section on my profile.
    1985 Chevrolet Corvette, Z51, 4+3 manual
    2006 Dodge Magnum R/T (D/D)
    2010 Camaro SS (Transformers Edition)

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