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Thread: Software & Tuning

  1. #21
    Not a DeLorean Guru
    Join Date:  May 2011

    Location:  Rochester, NY

    Posts:    1,717

    My VIN:    01049

    Since the cams would have the biggest effect on KPa, I would be very interested in knowing what the actual specs are on each of the different vendor cams. Drives me nuts that they don't publish those numbers.

    Oh, I should mention that for the tunes I have uploaded, that on top of the heads/cams/exhaust, the timing has also been advanced to 18 degrees.
    -Mike
    1981 DeLorean, heads/cams/exhaust, EFI
    1999 Corvette, heads/cam/exhaust, 440 BHP
    2005 Elise, stock
    2016 Chevy Cruze

  2. #22
    Back to the Omnipresent! Spittybug's Avatar
    Join Date:  Jun 2011

    Location:  Hot and bloody humid Houston

    Posts:    1,416

    My VIN:    2329

    IIRC, Ian's is idling at about 60-65 kPa, but we may be able to lower that a bit once the sync loss issue is behind us. I've got mine down to around 34 and the MAP lag set to 90, so as soon as I hit the gas I get response. I run my idle in the ~850 or so range where it is nice and smoooooooohth.
    Owen
    Tour the country and visit breweries through the eyes of our two puppy dogs. http://www.twobrewdogs.com
    Help us spread the word! @twobrewdogs on Twitter, twobrewdogs on Facebook.

  3. #23
    Not a DeLorean Guru
    Join Date:  May 2011

    Location:  Rochester, NY

    Posts:    1,717

    My VIN:    01049

    Mine fluctuates between 52 and 58, and my cams are much more aggressive than Houston's. While I had my base ignition timing set to 15 degrees, I was up a few points higher. I advanced my base timing to 19 degrees, and perfected my idle, and I am now down to 52-58.

    Keep in mind that unless you bump up the idle quite a bit, big cams are going to be less vacuum and rougher idle. My idle kPA won't hit 40 unless I idle at ~1,300 RPM. No thanks! (Plus, then I lose the bad-ass lope!)
    -Mike
    1981 DeLorean, heads/cams/exhaust, EFI
    1999 Corvette, heads/cam/exhaust, 440 BHP
    2005 Elise, stock
    2016 Chevy Cruze

  4. #24
    Back to the Omnipresent! Spittybug's Avatar
    Join Date:  Jun 2011

    Location:  Hot and bloody humid Houston

    Posts:    1,416

    My VIN:    2329

    MAP lag factor

    I shared this somewhere else, but it probably belongs here in this section. Under BASIC, General Lags, find the MAP averaging lag factor. The closer you get this to 100 the more responsive the RPM climb will be to opening the butterflies. Default is something like 50 which makes the car boggy when starting from a stop. I've got mine at 90 and it makes a world of difference. Just one of those things that isn't particularly well documented in the manuals I'm afraid.
    Owen
    Tour the country and visit breweries through the eyes of our two puppy dogs. http://www.twobrewdogs.com
    Help us spread the word! @twobrewdogs on Twitter, twobrewdogs on Facebook.

  5. #25
    Back to the Omnipresent! Spittybug's Avatar
    Join Date:  Jun 2011

    Location:  Hot and bloody humid Houston

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    MS Code Variant

    I've been doing even more tinkering to get the most I can out of my car. It is pretty cool to just do it with a laptop and not even pop open the engine compartment.

    I got my VE (fueling table), AFR target and spark advance tables to the point where I was running really, really nice. Checking logs I would see that there were times (hard accel or decel) where the resulting AFRs (air/fuel ratios) would go rich or lean by a few % for very short periods. The optional EAE (enhanced acceleration enrichment) algorithms in MSIIe try to eliminate these transitional events by modeling the fuel stuck or or sucked from the walls of the manifold that results in an actual amount of fueling that is different from what has been commanded. Carburetors have similar issues. I tried using those curves and while I found I could get the AFR variation to virtually disappear in steady state and most transition states, I was having a hard time with a super lean spike when lifting off the gas (like gear shift or coming to a stop light). I tried and tried to modify the curves, but all I seemed to be doing was introducing oscillation (PW going up a bit, down a bit as the "puddle" equalized). I basically gave up, at least for a while.

    Enter the code variant by gslender. He has added some nice features to the already impressive set. One of them is an TPS (throttle position sensor) smoothing window. It gets rid of a lot of sensor noise by oversampling. I loaded it up and have now gone to using the traditional AE (acceleration enhancement) based 100% on TPS. No herky jerky unintended AE kicking in because of TPSdot (rate of change of throttle position) noise. I have the lower threshold at 50 and a nice shallow curve adding PW (pulse width) from 50 to 300 %/sec rates. I think the most I add is only like 2ms of PW, but this has made the car run really, really nicely. Combined with the MAP (manifold air pressure) lag of 85 -90 or so and I have no hesitation off idle and when I put my foot down I get a nice little kick. Looking at my resulting log files shows me that while I sometimes run a little rich in those transitions (better for power), I don't go lean (knock or engine damage). His code also has some closed loop idle improvements I'm going to start playing with to make it even more solid than it already is. Once warm I'm rock solid at idle, but during warmup I do still get some oscillation as the VE values, idle air valve closing, temperature rising and timing all equalize to run state. Apparently he's got the means to wire your A/C compressor circuit into the MS unit so that it immediately signals that load is about to increase and the idle therefore changes at the same time; no lag. THAT would be cool. The code has improved battery voltage correction and other niceties that I'm exploring.

    There is also some good new writeups that have pointed out that some of the wiring diagrams previously released by vendors like DIY can be improved upon to reduce sensor noise. I haven't yet done this to my install, but will be doing so immediately. Whereas it was previously recommended to ground the sensors to the same spot on the engine as MS grounds to, it has been found that doing so introduces noise to them. The intake air, coolant and TPS sensors should all have their grounds go back directly to the MS unit which in turn is grounded to the engine. Apparently the 5v reference voltage that drives the sensors varies up and down to be a constant 5v over the MS ground plane. If your sensors go straight to engine ground, that changing 5v is introducing noise! The way to check if you are correct or not is to unplug your 37 pin connector from MS. If your sensors are still common to engine ground, you have it wrong and are introducing noise on your sensor wires. I've seen before/after graphics of the noise and it is significant enough to reduce/eliminate the little PW changes that make the RPM and AFRs jiggle.

    Hope the above is helpful to those of us already enjoying the benefits of EFI and to those thinking about it. We EFI guys sometimes get smacked for "look at all the problems they have" or "look how long it takes" or "they're always having to play with it"...... Let's set the record straight; we get TONS of diagnostic data from our systems that lets us optimize conditions, continuously improve performance, minimize emissions and most importantly, UNDERSTAND AND CONTROL exactly what our engines are doing and what they could be doing better. It's like chess; a minute to learn but a lifetime to master.

    I don't recommend EFI if you are content with the status quo, not interested in improvements or are looking for a drop in solution of someone else's making. Drilling out broken studs or hunting down electrical problems sucks, but this stuff is fun!
    Last edited by Spittybug; 05-20-2012 at 11:19 AM.
    Owen
    Tour the country and visit breweries through the eyes of our two puppy dogs. http://www.twobrewdogs.com
    Help us spread the word! @twobrewdogs on Twitter, twobrewdogs on Facebook.

  6. #26
    Not a DeLorean Guru
    Join Date:  May 2011

    Location:  Rochester, NY

    Posts:    1,717

    My VIN:    01049

    Agreed Owen. I'm often tinkering in some way with my EFI, but it is constantly improving, and I enjoy the process. It is definitely for the tinkering type, or the type that likes to learn. So glad I did my conversion!
    -Mike
    1981 DeLorean, heads/cams/exhaust, EFI
    1999 Corvette, heads/cam/exhaust, 440 BHP
    2005 Elise, stock
    2016 Chevy Cruze

  7. #27
    Back to the Omnipresent! Spittybug's Avatar
    Join Date:  Jun 2011

    Location:  Hot and bloody humid Houston

    Posts:    1,416

    My VIN:    2329

    NEWSFLASH....

    Tuner Studio has a new version out. It has a new feature, WUE auto tuning! WOOOO HOOOOOO!!!!! So, just like you can tune the VE table by letting the VE auto tune do it, now too can you dial in your Warm Up Enrichment.

    I've used it twice and in each case the base temp was only 70*, so I'm waiting for a cold morning to go further back up the curve, but already I'm seeing a big improvement. I've all but eliminated the dreaded idle hunt or surging that is common until warm. It's easy to use and fun to watch it dynamically play with your WUE values as the car warms up. The key seems to be in making sure your VE table is is good shape to begin with (not too hard, right?) and then on your first start up, try to keep the RPMs fairly steady by using the gas pedal. Then on the second warm up run you won't need to do that and he improves it even more. I'll update this thread with more passes.

    Remember, the actual RPM level during idle is set by the idle control valve settings; how far open and how steep the curve to close it with increasing temperature. I think my IAC settings are pretty good, so with this WUE tuning I should end up with a nice, smooth warm up. At temperature mine is already rock solid.

    I also ordered the bluetooth transmitter so that I won't need my cable to connect my laptop anymore. $59 from the EFIanalytics site. Yup, sit in the lounge chair and tune the car.... ah, technology.
    Owen
    Tour the country and visit breweries through the eyes of our two puppy dogs. http://www.twobrewdogs.com
    Help us spread the word! @twobrewdogs on Twitter, twobrewdogs on Facebook.

  8. #28
    Not a DeLorean Guru
    Join Date:  May 2011

    Location:  Rochester, NY

    Posts:    1,717

    My VIN:    01049

    I just downloaded that beta last night, with my main interest being the same as yours - the WUE auto-tune. Mine is decent right now, but won't argue with getting it better. It is in the 40s up here right now, so I should be able to go through the whole range over the next few days.
    -Mike
    1981 DeLorean, heads/cams/exhaust, EFI
    1999 Corvette, heads/cam/exhaust, 440 BHP
    2005 Elise, stock
    2016 Chevy Cruze

  9. #29
    Back to the Omnipresent! Spittybug's Avatar
    Join Date:  Jun 2011

    Location:  Hot and bloody humid Houston

    Posts:    1,416

    My VIN:    2329

    Should have posted this earlier....I got the closed loop idle function working nicely and have also modified the timing to pull out the 20* of vacuum advance when the throttle is closed (like stock). When the A/C kicks on the idle recovers nearly instantly.

    The *CODE* you have to break with Megasquirt is beginning to become clear;


    1. AIR - you must get your idle air right first. This controls your idle speed. All else comes after. The goal is to be able to totally close the throttle plates at idle and let the valve do all of the air control at idle.
    2. SPARK - get the timing close. The exact shape of the curve is negotiable, but this is second in importance only to air.
    3. FUEL - the VE table can be autotuned, but then smooth it. Especially around the idle area, keeping the values constant or very close is key to a smooth idle. Let the AFR bounce a bit in idle area, but it will keep the RPMs more constant and you'll get a nicer idle. The autotune goal seeks to whatever you have entered in your AFR table, so make sure it is reasonable. A little rich at idle and WOT, a little lean at cruise.
    4. WARM UP - once all of the above is working, use the new warm up tuner. It will get you really close.
    5. AE - this is ripe for a new autotune feature. Right now it is trial and error to get the acceleration enhancement dialed it. No particular hints or shortcuts.
    Owen
    Tour the country and visit breweries through the eyes of our two puppy dogs. http://www.twobrewdogs.com
    Help us spread the word! @twobrewdogs on Twitter, twobrewdogs on Facebook.

  10. #30
    EFI'd Member dn010's Avatar
    Join Date:  Jul 2011

    Location:  Florida: Pinellas County

    Posts:    1,084

    My VIN:    5003

    Club(s):   (DCF)

    Is anyone running a B280F that could post an msq? I'd like to compare some values particularly VE table...
    -----Dan B.

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