Insurance Monitoring Systems

[Dangermouse]

I have seen an upswing in Progressive Ins here in GA promoting their Snapshot device, claimed to save you money on your insurance.

http://www.progressive.com/auto/snapshot-discount.aspx

Basically a recording device that plugs into your OBDII port and records your driving habits. Drive like a little old lady and your premiums go down.

While that part of it seems attractive, I am pretty sure the insurance companies are in business to make more money year after year. So if the little old lady's insurance goes down, someone else's goes up.

What do you think - is this the thin end of the wedge where we will pay , in real time, insurance based on how we drive. And is this a good thing?

Anyone on here actually signed up for it? Any comments ?

[Renee_1632]

I'm seeing a lot of those commercials in CA too.

Maybe it's because of my job, maybe it's because I just finished 1984, or maybe it's because I'm a naturally suspicious person, but those things make me uncomfortable. I'm not a nut job conspiracy theorist, but I can't help but feeling one day those things will be required, for God-knows-why, and that this is a way to sweeten the pill.

But in response to your points, in Georgia, IN GENERAL, drivers there may not be better, but they are more polite and less erratic, than, say, CA. Seeing the drivers here somehow gives me the feeling that if they had one, the insurance co.'s would more than recoup what you're saving.

[DMCVegas]

I've heard of this, and I know that some politicians have been in favor of it not just for insurance purposes but for Road Taxes if Hybrid and Alternative Fuel vehicles hit the road as a way to may up for lost Fuel Tax Revenue. Will it become more commonplace? Probably not. There are serious privacy concerns, as well as I really doubt that insurance companies know what they're dealing with. It's a new concept and they're looking at it from one angle, but there are probably ways that they haven't even thought of yet to game this system that could make it cost prohibitive. People will ALWAYS find a way.

Along the lines of Privacy Concerns, I believe that most people have those and would reject this idea because of them. Without getting too political, I would cite the theory of Mario Savio's Bodies upon the Gears political speech in action by way of the recent rescinding of ATM fees by most major financial institutions. If enough people say "No" to something, it's usually not going to happen. Granted this hasn't stopped people from protesting the use of Event Data Recorders, although some states do currently have laws on the books restricting the use of Data Recorders and defining ownership of the data contained therein. http://www.harristechnical.com/cdr7.htm But along those lines you can still plead the Fifth Amendment and prevent the information from being used. With Progressive's Data Collector, it's their properly, and I would imagine there is probably paperwork involved which forces arbitration.

Besides that, speeding isn't the only danger. Passive-aggressive drivers who participate in road rage by pacing other cars as well as trying to force them to slow down by some misguided sense of justice are just as, if not more dangerous than your average speed demon on the highway. How do they propose to weed those people out?

I also loved these little quotes regarding information collected:
"Time of day and vehicle speed, which helps determine how many miles you drive and how often you make sudden stops. "

"The Snapshot device doesn't contain GPS technology or track vehicle location. It also doesn't track whether you're exceeding the speed limit."

Great legal wording there. They're not lying about what the device can do, but they certainly aren't admitting to what THEY can do. No, without a specific point of reference the device would not be able to independently determine if you were exceeding the speed limit. However it still records your speed, as well as deceleration. So while the device doesn't use GPS itself to track you, it wouldn't be hard at all to record start/stop times, as well as the length of time of said vehicle's operation. Calculate that against a map that lists your residence, job site, and the speed limits on each road, and yes they could very easily tell if you exceed the speed limit.

Sure Progressive says that the device doesn't collect location data. But it also doesn't say that the data *CAN'T* be used to calculate a location.

In any case, I wouldn't bother signing up for it. I don't need more gadgets in my car, and as someone who likes to pleasure drive, I wouldn't want leisure miles being callously calculated against me as a way to increase my rates. On top of that, I don't like Progressive, but regardless I wouldn't sign up for this with any insurance provider.

[Renee_1632]

I also loved these little quotes regarding information collected:
"Time of day and vehicle speed, which helps determine how many miles you drive and how often you make sudden stops. "

"The Snapshot device doesn't contain GPS technology or track vehicle location. It also doesn't track whether you're exceeding the speed limit."

Great legal wording there. They're not lying about what the device can do, but they certainly aren't admitting to what THEY can do. No, without a specific point of reference the device would not be able to independently determine if you were exceeding the speed limit. However it still records your speed, as well as deceleration. So while the device doesn't use GPS itself to track you, it wouldn't be hard at all to record start/stop times, as well as the length of time of said vehicle's operation. Calculate that against a map that lists your residence, job site, and the speed limits on each road, and yes they could very easily tell if you exceed the speed limit.

Sure Progressive says that the device doesn't collect location data. But it also doesn't say that the data *CAN'T* be used to calculate a location.

Exactly. Also, take the acceleration/deceleration patterns and overlay that on a map. Knowing your zip code, I can guarantee I could figure out the route you took, barring the running of red lights/stop signs etc.

I don't know this specific device. But I DO know enough about similar doohickeys to make decent guesses about its capabilities. Just because it can't "track" a location doesn't mean they can't "detect" it. Also, how does it detect the time of day? If it's based off your car clock, it's too easy for it to be cheated, which means that it has to be receiving some sort of signal unless they installed their own cesium atoms inside.

Sorry. I'm not a paranoid freak, I swear!

[Farrar]

I'm not a paranoid freak, I swear!

...says the Marine sharpshooter.

*hides*

Farrar

[DMCVegas]

Exactly. Also, take the acceleration/deceleration patterns and overlay that on a map. Knowing your zip code, I can guarantee I could figure out the route you took, barring the running of red lights/stop signs etc.

I don't know this specific device. But I DO know enough about similar doohickeys to make decent guesses about its capabilities. Just because it can't "track" a location doesn't mean they can't "detect" it. Also, how does it detect the time of day? If it's based off your car clock, it's too easy for it to be cheated, which means that it has to be receiving some sort of signal unless they installed their own cesium atoms inside.

Sorry. I'm not a paranoid freak, I swear!

Nah, it's not paranoia at all. It's honestly about just trying to figure out another way that companies are planning to separate you from your money, and how you can stop that from happening.

More great quotes from Progressive's Terms and Conditions:

With Snapshot, Progressive’s Pay As You Drive® (PAYD) program, you can turn your good driving into huge savings on car insurance. Your Snapshot Discount could be as much as 30 percent!*
"Pay as You Drive"? Makes it sound like you only pay for your time on the road. Once again, cleaver wording that legally misleads people. "As You Drive" isn't a reference to prorating time on the road. It's meant to reflect your driving style. As in "As You Drive like an asshole, we're gonna make you Pay rates like one."


In addition, a technology expense may be applied to your rate in some states, which includes the cost of the device and the amount we pay to have the data sent to us.
Oh look, the first hidden fees...


Please note: in Alabama only, after ending your participation in the program, up to 12 months of Snapshot data may be used for renewal pricing purposes,
So there is the first state where they can legally use the data against you in order to raise rates. But note that all it says is Alabama can use this info for 12 months, but doesn't specifically state that other states are either restricted nor enabled in any way. So maybe it's the other way around, and Alabama is the only state that forces them to rate you for a maximum of 12 months, and every other state is unlimited...


And finally, here is the statement that confirmed my suspicions:

Acknowledgement/Vehicle Owner Consent
By participating in Snapshot, you represent that you have the consent of the registered owner of each vehicle in which a device will be installed to (a) install the device, (b) provide information collected by the device to us, and (c) permit us to retain and use the information as described in these terms and conditions. Once the vehicle information is sent to us, the recorded information will be erased from the device. Progressive will retain information collected or derived from the device indefinitely.

Snapshot data may be useful in determining the cause of an automobile accident. If you're in an accident, you may have a legal obligation to preserve the information on the device. This information may be sought by opposing parties in a civil lawsuit or by police when investigating the cause of an accident, or we may be legally obligated to provide such information in response to a subpoena or as otherwise required by law. In the event that you have an insurance claim with us, we will not use the data to resolve the claim without first obtaining your permission or (if not you) the registered vehicle owner's permission. There may also be instances where we're required to provide driving information to a state department of insurance in order to support renewal rates.

First off as you've seen, some states outright ban the use of data from Event Data Recorders. They cite Privacy stating that since the electronics are owned by you, it's personal information that cannot be obtained without consent. However with Progressive's legal contract you forfeit your Privacy Rights by way of their electronic device, and your consent for it's use, to circumvent the law. Legally in some states, and I suspect eventually most if not all, these Privacy Rights exist. But with Progressive, THEY retain legal ownership of the device, and you are consenting to allow it to collect data from your vehicle. Once data leaves your car by way of the ODB-II port and their device obtains said data, it no longer belongs to you. You have absolutely no legal right to it whatsoever. You car's history now belongs to them. And who knows how else this data could be used against you?

The "Legal Obligation" to maintain the data however sounds like more jargon to scare people. The only possible obligation would be in their policy itself, and not any actual law that is on any books out there. If there was, they'd be citing it right now. Granted this is only a quick legal disclaimer, and not the final contract you would sign as a policy holder, but this whole thing smells mighty fishy to me. I get to be very suspicious when a company can't be forthright and has to use consistantly misleading representation in order to sell me on a product.

[sean]

Basically a recording device that plugs into your OBDII port and records your driving habits. Drive like a little old lady and your premiums go down.

While that part of it seems attractive, I am pretty sure the insurance companies are in business to make more money year after year. So if the little old lady's insurance goes down, someone else's goes up.

What do you think - is this the thin end of the wedge where we will pay , in real time, insurance based on how we drive. And is this a good thing?

I would be game for it since I would assume it would help my premiums go down but I would wonder how much Id have to pay for the equipment and to be a part of the program then wonder if Im really saving? It would make driving to Florida more expensive though since I hardly go below, well lets just say I go fast, during that trek, makes me wonder what kind of increase id see just for that day of driving. I suppose in theory it sounds good but I'd imagine the insurance company would nickle and dime you for every offense making it more hassle than its worth and end up not really saving you.

[Dangermouse]

Part of me is admittedly curious to see what would happen to my premiums, in essence how good a driver am I. Naturally, I believe I am an excellent driver, unlike the rest of you bums, but it is just possible that I am not. Dammit, my inner voice says, why should I pay the same as that really crappy driver next to me, eating a bagel, txtg, and shaving all at the same time.!! As DMCVegas says "As You Drive like an asshole, we're gonna make you Pay rates like one." Who couldn’t get behind that philosophy??

I would have to assume that for the first year or two, everybody’s premium would go down, no matter how they drive, in an attempt to build acceptance for the system. (At the moment they state that “no-one’s premium will increase”.mmmmm). However, Progressive didn’t invest in this system just to lower my premiums and therefore their income. Not the long term business plan they are after.

Soon, you would start seeing more widespread “fees” for supply and installation, followed by some justification of making them GPS equipped (“wouldn’t you like to know where your children are, good parents? Or a Progressive/Lojack rival” or some such thing). A simple step to comparing speed to speed-limit based on location and your account would start accumulating “points” . Only in this case “points” don’t mean “prizes”. Amass 10 points and your premiums rise by 5%, perhaps. Or maybe they would start sending out “insurance tickets” add-on fees for speeding (all in the name of safety, of course).

Finally, of course, you would be required to use one of these devices, just to get competitive rates, or even any insurance at all.

Maybe we will all end up with an “insurance score”, similar to your credit score, based on residency, car type, where you usually drive, and how you usually drive.

EDIT: I just checked the “How it works” part, trying to find out how they get the data from the recorder:

Plug the device into your car.
We’ll mail your Snapshot device to you, along with details on where to plug it into your car.
Drive as you normally do.
For the next 30 days, you’ll keep track of your good driving habits with the Snapshot device. You can log in to your Progressive policy anytime to see your projected Snapshot DiscountSM.
Enjoying your savings
On day 31, your initial Snapshot savings—which can be anywhere from 0 to 30 percent— kicks in. After six months, you’ll send back the device, we’ll finalize your driving snapshot, and you can keep saving for as long as you’re insured by Progressive.

Still not really clear. I assume when you send the device back, they plug it in and download, but how do they get it at day 31? Is it wireless? Do they send a PC adaptor to upload to their website? Or maybe they just use the assumption, perhaps, that the driver will drive better over those 30 days, knowing he is being “watched”?
It kind of implies that you could connect the device for 2 months, drive like a little old lady every time you are out, and artificially drive down your premiums.

[DMCVegas]

All those factors are currently at play to determine our insurance premiums. But I agree that they'll definitely try and find a way to raise your rates and increase profitability. If insurance companies truly wanted to create safer drivers, they'd would instead force drivers to get certified by these guys:



Take a look at their basic principals.

Also too in regards to speeding, in Nevada they have laws on the books regarding speed limits, as in the posted limit is NOT always the rule of law. The true rule of law is the "Flow of Traffic". If you are by yourself, then you ARE the flow traffic and as such have to conform to speed limits, weather conditions, etc. However when for instance you are together apart of traffic with multiple other cars, you have a duty to keep up with the flow of traffic. Not only do you need to slow down with everyone else in times of congestion, but you also are required to keep pace with everyone else. That's not just for perpetually slow drivers who insist upon going slower than traffic (which is illegal of course), but that you also need to both accelerate in a timely manner and maintain you speed as the flow of traffic dictates. Even if it is traveling faster than the posted limit. Progressive also makes no implication here as to how they will adapt to local laws such as these to judge driving habits.

[DMCVegas]

EDIT: I just checked the “How it works” part, trying to find out how they get the data from the recorder:

Plug the device into your car.
We’ll mail your Snapshot device to you, along with details on where to plug it into your car.
Drive as you normally do.
For the next 30 days, you’ll keep track of your good driving habits with the Snapshot device. You can log in to your Progressive policy anytime to see your projected Snapshot DiscountSM.
Enjoying your savings
On day 31, your initial Snapshot savings—which can be anywhere from 0 to 30 percent— kicks in. After six months, you’ll send back the device, we’ll finalize your driving snapshot, and you can keep saving for as long as you’re insured by Progressive.

Still not really clear. I assume when you send the device back, they plug it in and download, but how do they get it at day 31? Is it wireless? Do they send a PC adaptor to upload to their website? Or maybe they just use the assumption, perhaps, that the driver will drive better over those 30 days, knowing he is being “watched”?
It kind of implies that you could connect the device for 2 months, drive like a little old lady every time you are out, and artificially drive down your premiums.

They say it's a wireless communication device, and if it doesn't work for some reason, they'll refund your the service fees on it. Communicates just like your wireless phone. Which also explains how they could keep time stamps on the unit to tell WHEN you're driving in traffic.

So far I have not seen an up-to-date actual contract from Progressive on this with specifics and actual legal terms. My biggest guess as to how this is going to help raise rates isn't how you drive, but how much you drive. Most people are probably under-reporting their yearly averages for distance driven. The more you drive, the more you're exposed to risk, thus the higher your rates are. That's probably the biggest chunk of data they're after, and the last metric that until now they've never been able to monitor. As such it's not yet fully monetized, and they're going after this untapped revenue source. Sure, now you've got this thing on your car, you know you're being watched, so you're gonna drive slower. Good for you. But like Magician 101, slight of hand is the key principal. They've got you monitoring how you're driving, but not how MUCH you're driving. And that's the big question, isn't it? How accurate is anyone on here with their yearly mileage estimates? How many people report they drive 8-10K miles, and are actually clocking 12-15K a year? How many actually drive LESS than what they report to their insurance company?