Number of DeLoreans Left: Time for Some "Expert" Opinions

[SoCalDMC12]

My entire problem with that phrase is that it seems to me that someone pulled it out of the air and it stuck because I could never find any backing, but it's quoted as part of the dogma of the DeLorean community.

Sure, but I just wanted to replace the "KNOWN" in your post with something a bit softer, to reflect the fuzzy nature of that number.

I feel confident enough to say that over 7,500 DeLoreans still exist today.

I suppose that number is fine as well, but it is also derived from one person's estimates/assumptions, not on hard data.

I wonder if the loss rate was higher in the '80's when these cars were still fairly new. Back then, more people may have been using them as "regular cars", exposing them to more dangers. Also, it was probably harder to get a wreck back on the road back then (after the demise of the dealer network, but before a strong vendor network and forum support was established).

[Renee_1632]

I'm in an opinionated mood today. So, my thoughts:

As for existing, If I can physically hold the intact VIN plate in my hands, that DeLorean exists, as far as I am concerned. I am confident there are enough parts (yes, even LFFs) to completely rebuild at least a few DeLoreans--even if all the parts (starters, headers, etc) aren't exactly all stock. Title gone? That doesn't magically make a car vanish. Screw the government's paperwork. By my "logic", there are a lot left. I think a better, more telling count is how many are "in use"--they are weekend cars, daily drivers, even cars like Sean's...in four pieces, yes, but accounted for by its owner as a project. By this, random VIN hiding in the woods in Vermont does not count.

When you say "exist" I take it literally. As in, not a charred pile in a junkyard.

[Dracula]

I'm in an opinionated mood today. So, my thoughts:

As for existing, If I can physically hold the intact VIN plate in my hands, that DeLorean exists, as far as I am concerned. I am confident there are enough parts (yes, even LFFs) to completely rebuild at least a few DeLoreans--even if all the parts (starters, headers, etc) aren't exactly all stock. Title gone? That doesn't magically make a car vanish. Screw the government's paperwork. By my "logic", there are a lot left. I think a better, more telling count is how many are "in use"--they are weekend cars, daily drivers, even cars like Sean's...in four pieces, yes, but accounted for by its owner as a project. By this, random VIN hiding in the woods in Vermont does not count.

When you say "exist" I take it literally. As in, not a charred pile in a junkyard.

This is what I've been saying and the distinction I've been pushing for since I started this thread.

[SoCalDMC12]

I think a better, more telling count is how many are "in use"--they are weekend cars, daily drivers, even cars like Sean's...in four pieces, yes, but accounted for by its owner as a project. By this, random VIN hiding in the woods in Vermont does not count.

Agreed, but this is a figure that's no easier to create accurately. 6500, 7500... still just estimates not based on hard data. (Which is fine... at this point, after ~30 years of being on the road, I doubt that anything better than an estimate can be made.)

I wonder if anyone has tried to get this number for any other extinct marque... perhaps a process to get to an accurate number exists out there.

[Renee_1632]

Agreed, but this is a figure that's no easier to create accurately. 6500, 7500... still just estimates not based on hard data. (Which is fine... at this point, after ~30 years of being on the road, I doubt that anything better than an estimate can be made.)

I wonder if anyone has tried to get this number for any other extinct marque... perhaps a process to get to an accurate number exists out there.

I know Tuckers have been counted. But when there were only 50 to begin with, it's a bit easier.

[SoCalDMC12]

I know Tuckers have been counted. But when there were only 50 to begin with, it's a bit easier.

LOL. You could fit the entire production run in a McDonalds parking lot! I was thinking more of the Pontiac Historic Society... I think they have a registry for GTO's.

[Dracula]

LOL. You could fit the entire production run in a McDonalds parking lot! I was thinking more of the Pontiac Historic Society... I think they have a registry for GTO's.

They have the major advantage of documentation and factory records. Still, unless every single car is accounted for, it's always going to involve some level of intuitive guesswork.

[Dangermouse]

fwiw I see the 6500 number, most often in articles involving DMCH (aka the "expert" in these interview situations). I have to assume that the interviewer/journo talking to Steve or James must ask basic questions "When and where were they made? How many were made? How many are left?"

Personally I like Shannon's logic of 8987 cars built.

And, frankly, who is better to estimate the number of cars left, that the supplier of parts to those cars.

At some point, probably in the late 90s, I assume that DMCH went through their customer list (data-mined old-school, so-to-speak) and came up with the 6500, but whether they had 6500 VINs on file, or a smaller number that they pro-rated isn't known. Perhaps they haven't done it again recently.

As a side bar, do you think it is in DMCH's best interest to over- or under-estimate the numbers of cars left? Is it in their interests to keep the 6500 number out there, even if they know it is incorrect?

[Dracula]

As a side bar, do you think it is in DMCH's best interest to over- or under-estimate the numbers of cars left? Is it in their interests to keep the 6500 number out there, even if they know it is incorrect?

I would say that it's definitely in their best interest to keep the number smaller. It makes the cars seem rarer and people are always willing to pay more for when there are fewer of something in the world; it's supply and demand. There are exceptions, like things that should never have been made, but my point stands.

The 6,500 number has been around longer than DMCH and is always thrown out there when people are questioned about how many remain. I don't hold anyone responsible for perpetuating it; I just don't believe it to be accurate.

[DMCVegas]

The 6,500 number has been around longer than DMCH and is always thrown out there when people are questioned about how many remain. I don't hold anyone responsible for perpetuating it; I just don't believe it to be accurate.

The "6,500" number came from the DOA quite a few years ago, back in the mid 1990's if I remember correctly. It was supposed to represent the number of D's that were physically roadworthy and able to drive under their own power with no problems. The remainder of which would be counted as either destroyed, or derelict requiring a restoration of some sort to get on the road again.

For example my car is sitting with a blown engine and I haven't gotten around to dropping the replacement lump in yet. As such the DOA considered that a detractor, and that it did not count as one of the "6,500" cars. Regardless of completeness, or eligibility, let alone intent, if it couldn't move under it's own power, it was considered as though it were destroyed.

Something else to consider is the radical impact that the DML itself had on the DeLorean community, and how that number, even if it was "correct" at one time is no longer valid because of the DML. Because we have such information hubs like this, some of the once common problems with DeLoreans have now been reduced to trivial items that we almost take for granted like "Hot Start" and cooling system issues. So in the late 90's as the cars approached the 20 year mark, the market started to get flooded with ones for sale. Luckily for the marque as well as the new owners, the DML had appeared. Like I say, common issues we now take for granted were big concerns back then because before the DML you were pretty much stuck with the DOA for help. You had a quarterly magazine that you could write into for help, and otherwise had to pour through articles in Delorean World magazine that spanned years. Plus you had to hope that your issue was even in there.

Because of the lack of information readily available to anyone needing to repair a DMC-12, many cars became hopelessly abandoned. As such this "6,500" number came about. However if you considered the amount of people here who are brought back cars and made them roadworthy, then you know that number was easily invalidated about a decade ago.

Another number is "8,583" which is supposed to represent the total number of DMC-12s built in Dunmurry. This number came from Sir Kenneth Cork's assessment of the DMCL's paperwork. It too is of course an inaccurate number. Knut Grimsrud's project from the mid to late 1990's was proving this as well, showing the actual number of produced vehicles quite possibly being closer to 10,000. Here too it's hard, if not impossible to predict just how many cars were made. Chassis numbers don't always, if ever tie into VINs, and like my car, it's doors when made on that assembly line were destined for another car that was 2 digits lower. Was it a synchronization problem or someone installing the wrong locks into the wrong car? We'll never know. Just like these numbers.

In both cases though, these numbers have just been repeated over and over again so many times that many people have just accepted them as fact. But whenever you see an article that quotes "6,500" or "8,583", you can tell that the author of the material only skimmed over a couple of sites in the internet that parroted these numbers instead of doing any actual in-depth research on anything.

I agree though that a new classification system should be implemented such as the one created in one of the online polls here regarding condition, in order to obtain true numbers. However I doubt that those numbers are truly attainable. Aside from people who may not be at liberty to discuss a private matter such as their car's condition, there are also hundreds more, if not thousands of other people who don't regularly, if at all, communicate with the community using modern electronic means.