What do you guys mean by different freons need different oils? I have to add oil to the system too? I just figured I could check the pressure and if it is low add some Freeze 12.
Have any of you used Freeze 12 before?
Location: Texas
Posts: 397
My VIN: 4159
What do you guys mean by different freons need different oils? I have to add oil to the system too? I just figured I could check the pressure and if it is low add some Freeze 12.
Have any of you used Freeze 12 before?
Location: North GA
Posts: 6,177
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You can top off R-12 with Freeze 12 and not worry about the oil. Freeze 12 fittings are a whole different animal though.
You could buy a can tap that pierces if the Freeze 12 didn't come in a kit with fittings. (I thought that stuff was about gone long ago...worked ok.)
Location: Sunfield, Michigan, USA
Posts: 2,444
My VIN: 1798
Originally Posted by Ron
HC-12a, FrostyCool 12a, RedTek 12a, etc are essentially all the same product - you can verify this by looking at the MSDS of the various 12a products. BTW - the 'HC' merely stands for 'hydrocarbon,' while 'CFC' stands for chlorofluorocarbon. 12a products are basically a blended mix of highly refined butane and propane. It is a hydrocarbon based product, as opposed to a fluorocarbon based product such as R-134a is.
Personally, I believe the concerns about potential explosive flammability from the use of such a refrigerant is highly/greatly exaggerated.
First off, gasoline vapors are way more explosive than any 12a product is. Second, various tests performed have essentially confirmed that a perfect storm of conditions is required in order to cause the ignition of a 12a product that has escaped from an a/c system. You actually have a greater chance of being struck by lightning or being involved in a plane crash in your lifetime than such a perfect storm occurrence happening. Keep in mind that there have been no reported explosions having been caused by the use of a 12a product. Third, if you're concerned about refrigerant leaking into the cabin of the car, then perhaps you should consider the fact that R-134a is a known carcinogen, while 12a is wholly benign, not to mention that R-134a is also flammable (just not as much). Fourth, several users of this very forum have reported using 12a products with great success - try searching the term 'redtek' for a few examples. Fifth, because hydrocarbons are more efficient at cooling than flurocarbons, you actually need less refrigerant to obtain the same degree of cooling, 14.4oz of 12a vs 36oz of R-134a, and at lower pressures, which means less compressor cycling. Sixth, hydrocarbon refrigerants have been used in commercial/industrial applications for over half a century and have an excellent performance and safety record.
Finally, it's important to keep in mind that 12a refrigerants are not proprietary, nor are they at all patented.
R-12/Freon was a patent/trademark of DuPont until 1995 when their patent expired. Curiously enough, 1995 is the same year that R-12 was outlawed in all new build vehicles sold in the US. R-134a is also patented by DuPont.
So, before blindly accepting either state law or the EPA's ban on the use of 12a products in automotive a/c systems, you have to ask yourself why did they really do this. After all, it's still legal to sell, just not legal to use. Thus, if it was really that bad, and the government was truly concerned about our safety, then wouldn't they prevent the sale of it as well? Remember that DuPont spends more than the GDP of several small and medium nations lobbying the federal and state governments annually.
I'm just saying...
Last edited by NightFlyer; 07-24-2013 at 02:54 AM.
Location: Yardley, PA
Posts: 245
My VIN: 16795
There is this http://www.imcool.com/articles/airco...erant_Fire.php
That said I pretty much agree with NightFlyer.
Badly written laws are the reason 12a isn't used more often. Even though its completely harmless to the environment to release 12a to the atmosphere, legally you're still required to use a dedicated 12a refrigerant recovery system when emptying a system that has 12a. So if you have 12a in your AC system no shop is going to want to touch it.
Also, the law requires that the EPA explicitly approve any replacements for R12. There is no such requirement for R134a. So while it's legal to use 12a in R134a systems (in states where it hasn't been banned), its not legal to use it in R12 systems. It's also illegal to convert from R12 to R134a with the intent of using 12a.
Location: North GA
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While the first link indicates HC-12a is a drop in for R-12 systems, the second link indicates FrostyCool 12a is for retrofitted R-12 systems (twice). So either one of the links are wrong, or, they are not to be used for the same purpose. "Drop in" V/S "Retrofit".
See?
+1 I'm with you on all of this. (I'm not on either band wagon there ;-)
I will say comparisons between the explosiveness of fuel and refrigerants would have to consider the refrigerant (any type) is under relatively extreme heat AND pressure (max 75 V/S 300psi in a D) when the system is operating.
Doesn't seem to matter in the first place to me. We don't have a lot of reasonable choices for fuel... No sense in asking for it over a few bucks when it comes to refrigerants.
Location: Northern NJ
Posts: 8,582
My VIN: 10757 1st place Concourse 1998
There is a lot of confusion out there about "drop-in" replacements for R-12. Basically there are two kinds of drop in replacements, blended refrigerants (using different types of freon mixed together) and HC based refrigerants using Propane and Butane. As noted it is illegal to use HC based refrigerants in a mobile application (cars). In fact, it became so common in California for people to go to Mexico for A/C work on their car (it was a lot cheaper) where they would use HC refrigerants, that when you go to trade your car in the dealers would actually check what kind of refrigerant was in the A/C! There is a small device that makes it easy to do. Drop-in replacements usually means you do not have to change the oil, service fittings or switches. R-134 is NOT a drop-in replacement but can be used. You have to change the oil, service fittings and you can lose up to 10% of the system capacity. Blended refrigerants can be used as drop-in replacements but as they leak you lose the proper proportions (different components of the mix leak at different rates) and that limits you to the # of "top-offs" you can do. You also do lose some capacity depending on what you are actually using. I use R-414. Seems to work OK, like using R-12. There is no good reason to not use R-12. You do not need a lot and it is not THAT expensive. You can still get it at places like E-Bay.
David Teitelbaum
Location: Taylors SC
Posts: 5,326
My VIN: (former)05429
Club(s): (DMWC) (DCUK)
[QUOTE=NightFlyer;113426]
Personally, I believe the concerns about potential explosive flammability from the use of such a refrigerant is highly/greatly exaggerated.
QUOTE]
I agree. I don't use them for all the other reasons mentioned (compatibility etc.) but I've heard that running straight HC (aka Propane) is/was pretty common by people running older RVs. When asked about the danger of the flammability, they just point at the two 30-lb cans strapped to the back bumper for the stove and heater.
There is also the issue of 10 gallons of gasoline in the car, which is immensely more dangerous than a few ounces of propane, but it doesn't bother anyone.
Dave S
DMC Midwest - retired but helping
Greenville SC
Location: Sunfield, Michigan, USA
Posts: 2,444
My VIN: 1798
Again, HC-12a is a generic term, with the 'HC' simply meaning hydrocarbon. It's just an identifier, and doesn't signify anything more. Basically, the reason for the discrepancy in FrostyCool's advertising of their 12a cans is that the cans are designed for use with R-134a can taps and fittings, thus why they proclaim it as being for a "retrofit" system. But the actual refrigerant in the can is essentially the same as any other 12a hydrocarbon refrigerant.
Also, due to federal and state laws prohibiting the use of hydrocarbon refrigerants in automotive a/c systems, I don't believe that they can openly advertise it as a drop in replacement for r-12 systems. Thus, the discrepancy allows them to get around the utterly pointless/stupid nanny state laws against their product so that they're at least able to sell it, placing the burden of liability for illegal use of the product on the end user / consumer.
Those using 12a and other hydrocarbon based refrigerants properly report great success. Usually, those bad mouthing the products as not being as effective as a DuPont patented product have overfilled their system or have too many different kinds of refrigerants in their system causing their problems. Remember, if you're completely evacuating the system and refilling with 12a, you want to use the proper amount as recommended by the manufacturer of the product. So, if your system takes 36oz of R-134a, be certain that you're only using around 14.4oz of 12a for maximum system efficiency. Overfilling with 12a will lower efficiency and be hard on the compressor.
Location: Sunfield, Michigan, USA
Posts: 2,444
My VIN: 1798
You're right about using R-12, R-414, or whatever else will work. However, even many eBay seller's won't sell R-12 to you anymore unless you can provide proof of having an EPA handling certificate. And while the EPA certificate test is online, open book, and fairly inexpensive, it still poses a major PITA just to be able to buy a product. It's little more than a money maker for the EPA and a deterrent against R-12 usage. It's not like the EPA goes around busting individual/personal users of R-12 that install it in their cars without a certificate.
Nothing more than yet another example of our federal government run amok!
Location: Sunfield, Michigan, USA
Posts: 2,444
My VIN: 1798
Interesting article. That 928 sounds like it was a disaster anyway, irregardless of the refrigerant igniting and causing an engine fire.
"However, a DuPont technical representative was quite specific when he said that pure (no oil or air) Suva® R-134a was nonflammable under these conditions; a spark from fan motor brushes would not ignite it. This was not necessarily the case with an oil-134a or air-134a mixture."
So, basically what they're saying here, is that R-134a also would have combusted, as when it escapes the system, it mixes with air, unless I'm missing something.
I've notice that CoolProfit$ Magazine often takes a biased anti auto HC refrigerant stance, and is constantly praising DuPont products to high heaven. Leads me to believe that they might be funded in part by DuPont.
If 12a and similar products didn't exist, I wonder how much more expensive R-134a would be...
One thing for certain is that our governments needs to quit trying to give DuPont a monopoly on the automotive refrigerant business!
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