Front brake ugrade kit

[refugeefromcalif]

And a Delorean is a commercial vehicle, too bad reading is not rocket science.

Happy motoring
Louie

I've had a U.S. Class A CDL, (Commercial Drivers License), for almost 25 years. I haven't read anywhere on this forum that ANY DeLorean owners need one too drive their car. No matter what part of the world they live in.
Where did you *Read* that a DeLorean is a commercial vehicle?

I started on Wikipedia Here The way I read it, a DeLorean doesn't qualify.
I even went Here. The Examples list doesn't include DeLoreans.
I then tried *Reading* around the Internet. I couldn't find anything that substantiated what you're saying.?
Please post a link and prove me wrong.

George

[NightFlyer]

Hmmm... dare I do this? Oh, you know it...

[DCUK Martin]

Attachment 25935

I know whatever I say will just be feeding the troll, but I would like to help people not waste their money. This isn't an opinion-based "debate" this is provable, measurable fact. That you aren't capable to wrapping your brain around them isn't my problem, all I can do is post the facts and hopefully give you enough rope to hang yourself.

To answer James' question, this isn't just about brake force and the ease of application (push hard enough and you can lock up any brakes), it's the ability to control that force on the edge of traction.

You seemed intent on the "more is better" with regards to numbers of pots, and referenced many high performance cars with multi-pot callipers. This is because if you start with a space envelope (the wheel) and are designing callipers from scratch, you will always be able to apply more pot area with multiple pots than single ones. Just picking an off-the-shelf 4-pot and claiming it will be an improvement over a twin pot system is entirely missing the point.

Any conventional brake system trades pedal movement for force. Assuming you've kept the servo unchanged and the vacuum applied to it is also constant, the more movement in the pedal, the less pedal force required for the same braking effort. More movement and less force (within reason) gives the driver greater control. On the DeLorean, it also helps to shunt some bias rearwards.

Your system as described will be worse in terms of brake feel and pedal force when compared to a properly functioning original system. Vented rotors will help heating and pad area will provide a small improvement (although in theory friction is independent of area).

I urge anyone considering this kit to go for the larger pot area on the front callipers and fit a saab 50/50 master cylinder. This will provide a noticeable improvement and keep the bias basically original.

[DCUK Martin]

PS Engineering guy once told me that a bumble bee can't fly! Impossible!!!!!

No he didn't. Guess what, you can *read* this on the internet too (so it must be true).

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Bumblebee_argument

Unfortunately (for the pseudoscientists), the laws of physics do not in any way forbid bumblebee flight; there are no papers that deny bumblebee flight, and no scientist has done so ...

[DrJeff]

Again,

I have installed ( I guess I didn't mention that I designed, as well !!) numerous brake upgrades for over 25 years, not on a calculator.

My original intent was to help guys with their brakes. And sadly, the I was degraded by a professional mechanical engineer and other people whom obviously know him.
...

This argument isn't about physics or engineering - if anything we owe a lot to an engineer (John DeLorean a graduate in Industrial and Automotive Engineering) in providing us with the DMC-12 platform to mess around with. The engineering of brakes is well understood and the performance is highly predictable based on established and tested engineering science.

What is conflicting here is practical experience with engineering - and the trust that we personally build up in each as we work through our careers. When done right engineering very rarely leads us astray - and even when we do see a bad outcome we can quickly come to understand why and take corrective action. Practical experience is also informative, but it can be subject to trial-and-error and (without objective tests) subject to perceptions of improvement (even when they don't exist). When something goes wrong in practice based mechanics, we try something else. Practice-based mechanics leads us to establish rules-of-thumb that provide some guidance about the behavior of mechanical systems, but seldom provide definitive answers or useful predictions.

The challenge here is that we're dealing with brakes - and that means the potential of someone's DeLorean potentially crashing into a wall, hitting another car, and hurting or fatally injuring drivers, passengers, other motorists, or pedestrians. This is not an area for public road experimentation - even if it is informed by a long career. As an objective observer I would pay a lot of attention to the engineer as regards the design of the system and predictions of its effectiveness. I would also pay a lot of attention to the practitioner as regards the ability to build and maintain the system. Of course someone can be both an engineer and a practitioner.

There are times when we need something done (say the A/C system on our house fixed, or our home computer repaired), if it is not a topic you are completely familiar with (and if the cost of failure is high) then when seeking advice we base our confidence in the solution more on whether or not we trust the person doing the fixing rather than trying to understand what they are going to do. In many cases this works out fine - we don't have to understand the solution and the thing gets fixed - life goes on.

In this particular case, Martin has shared with us the engineering basics of brakes. There are paper and calculators - provided by both performance car companies and engineering schools - that discuss the same topic. Admittedly this is a very complex area of engineering for an amateur to dip into because of the number of variables involved, which leads us to want to 'trust' the adviser. We trust Louie's experience with building brake systems and we trust Martin's understanding of the engineering principles.

If I were interest in getting upgraded brakes (which I'm not, yet) I would first and foremost pay a lot of attention to Martin's guidance on brake engineering. If the engineering is right, then second comes the question - can the brakes be built and maintained sensibly and cost effectively. If you modify your car and take it on to public roads the onus is on you (as the modifier) to ensure that they understood that what you did is going to be safe and effective not just for themselves and their car, but for other motorists and pedestrians.

[Bitsyncmaster]

I don't think anyone would have a catastrophic brake failure using vendor supplied parts for the design. As long as the brake lines and hoses and the bolts holding the caliper on are what was there you should be safe. Now you can test that on any road (no traffic) by locking up the brakes at a few high speeds.

You need an upgrade if you do road racing or a lot of mountain driving. For normal driving you should not be overheating your brakes. If you have a standard, you don't even have problems mountain driving by just down shifting.

[DCUK Martin]

I would suggest that "normal driving" must consider, say, a rapid stop from motorway speeds to a standstill. That's enough to bring standard delorean rotors and regular pads to their temperature limit. (Of course this comment relates to solid versus vented rotors, not the hydraulics).

[TTait]

I urge anyone considering this kit to go for the larger pot area on the front callipers and fit a saab 50/50 master cylinder.

Perhaps the "Secret 17" want to step out of the shadows and share their thoughts for what they plan on doing with the kit, so we can have some real discussions about how these kits might be used.

I'm not sure who all the "secret" buyers are - but I can guess at 5 of them...

images.jpg

I'm kinda hoping Chief Tyrol will share his thoughts, he's an engineer and a mechanic. And lord knows Tigh needs good brakes now that his depth perception is shot...

Seriously - If anyone is buying the kits, why not step forward and share how you intend to implement it? Louie only wants to bait others and mock science (its worth pointing out that Martin is not just a theorhetical engineer - he's a fine mechanic too) so maybe someone else would like to add something meaningful in favor of this new option.

[Kane]

Seriously - If anyone is buying the kits, why not step forward and share how you intend to implement it?

They all died because their brakes failed.

[Farrar]

I urge anyone considering this kit to go for the larger pot area on the front callipers and fit a saab 50/50 master cylinder. This will provide a noticeable improvement and keep the bias basically original.

Martin,

A quick question for you since you're expert in this regard. My car's brakes are 100% stock excepting pads and fluid changes. My car is an automatic and I don't drive very hard, so although I don't see much need to upgrade, I like the thought of not overheating the system upon a panic stop. Do you think the Saab master cylinder would help in this regard? If so, does the Saab part have a stateside cross-reference?

Thanks!