Reminder to check your ball joints

[Kevin]

I finally dropped a ball joint today.

Luckily, I was in a parking lot. I was going to the dentist. When I pulled into the spot, I heard a couple loud pops, the parking lot was gravely so I dismissed it to maybe running over some big rocks. Then when I go to leave, I back out, go a few feet, then immediately start dragging my front-end through the gravel. I thought I bottomed out on something, tried to backup, couldn't, got out and saw this.

It seems the nut has completely backed off. I had just replaced it with a new nyloc nut about a month ago because the old one was backing off. I just checked it a few days ago, it was a little loose but not much, but I retightened it (maybe should have replaced it again). Today, it decided to come all the way off. So, I took advantage of my Allstate Motor Club for the first time and got a flatbed tow home.

I don't know whose ball joints I have, but they don't have a hole for a cotter pin. The ball joint otherwise seems fine, but since I don't know the history of my ball joints, I'll probably end up replacing them with the UK ones, maybe along with a new set of LCAs, mine is pretty dinged up.

Question for you all: do you think insurance would pay for something like this? I've never had to file a claim before.

[David T]

I finally dropped a ball joint today.

Luckily, I was in a parking lot. I was going to the dentist. When I pulled into the spot, I heard a couple loud pops, the parking lot was gravely so I dismissed it to maybe running over some big rocks. Then when I go to leave, I back out, go a few feet, then immediately start dragging my front-end through the gravel. I thought I bottomed out on something, tried to backup, couldn't, got out and saw this.

It seems the nut has completely backed off. I had just replaced it with a new nyloc nut about a month ago because the old one was backing off. I just checked it a few days ago, it was a little loose but not much, but I retightened it (maybe should have replaced it again). Today, it decided to come all the way off. So, I took advantage of my Allstate Motor Club for the first time and got a flatbed tow home.

I don't know whose ball joints I have, but they don't have a hole for a cotter pin. The ball joint otherwise seems fine, but since I don't know the history of my ball joints, I'll probably end up replacing them with the UK ones, maybe along with a new set of LCAs, mine is pretty dinged up.

Question for you all: do you think insurance would pay for something like this? I've never had to file a claim before.


This is not a common occurrence in the fleet at large. My suspicions are it is something specific to how your car was cared for. If the ball joint was not torqued properly this can happen. Also that nut is supposed to be cotter-pinned. If there is no hole you just have to drill one. You can check with your insurance company to see if you have any coverage. Depends on the fine print in your policy. Could be covered under collision.

[Nicholas R]

Are those original lower control arms? They seem different to me... Also, yea, if for some reason you dont have a cotter pin and a castellated nut, then in addition to the nylock, I would definitely use a strong threadlocker. Like, one that you need a heat gun to remove. Best of luck!! :thumbup:

[DMCMW Dave]

Generally the insurance company will NOT cover the failure itself, i.e. the ball joint nut.

The will usually cover the collateral damage as "comprehensive", i.e. bent fenders, cut tire, bent wheel, damage from anything you ran into, etc. within your deductible.If this bent up the control arms or ripped one, that may actually be covered as damage. Depends on how friendly you are with the adjuster.

Towing would be covered if you had towing insurance (like your AAA).

If your overall damage is pretty minor, and you have a high deductible, you may want to avoid a claim rather than getting a couple hundred dollars and the added insurance points.
------------------------------------------

FYI This is what the front end recall was supposed to avoid, i.e. by changing the ball joint nuts to castle nuts with cotter pins. I believe that the new ball joints still show up with nylocks. I'd change them to castle nuts.

http://www.dmcnews.com/bulletins/SC-01-11.81.html


PS - looking at the photos closer, you have Henninger's control arms which come with his own (sourced) ball joints.

[valdez]

I check my balls regularly. Still no joints. All is good. Didn't know that was possible.
FYI I highly recommend NOT dragging your front end thru gravel. That can't be good. Clearly a doctor is needed rather than a dentist.

PS the car looks rough too. Hope it is an easy fix.

[Kevin]

PS - looking at the photos closer, you have Henninger's control arms which come with his own (sourced) ball joints.

Yep I have Henninger's arms, probably his ball joints then too. I appear to have the rest of the front-end recall, but swapping out the ball joints must have negated that specific bit.

Thanks all for the insurance info, sounds like it might not be worth it, the damage does seem pretty minor and I could get it back on the road pretty easily if I re-perform the recall.

[NightFlyer]

Yep I have Henninger's arms, probably his ball joints then too. I appear to have the rest of the front-end recall, but swapping out the ball joints must have negated that specific bit.

Thanks all for the insurance info, sounds like it might not be worth it, the damage does seem pretty minor and I could get it back on the road pretty easily if I re-perform the recall.

Yeah, definitely no need to replace a Henninger LCA just because it was dragged through the gravel a little - you could detonate a thermonuclear explosive on one and it would still be completely usable :biggrin:

[Josh]

If i were you I would get ball joints with a cotter pin hole in them and install them, or drill a hole for a cotter pin in the existing balljoint. Do the same with the passenger side! Install a castle nut and a cotter pin, skip the nylocs.

[Kevin]

Yeah, definitely no need to replace a Henninger LCA just because it was dragged through the gravel a little - you could detonate a thermonuclear explosive on one and it would still be completely usable :biggrin:

True! I guess I just get excited at getting shiny new DeLorean parts, especially if my insurance would cover a good chunk.


If i were you I would get ball joints with a cotter pin hole in them and install them, or drill a hole for a cotter pin in the existing balljoint. Do the same with the passenger side! Install a castle nut and a cotter pin, skip the nylocs.

I think that's the plan, I'll do both sides properly and stop worrying about nyloc nuts.

[Tillsy]

I believe that the new ball joints still show up with nylocks.

That's highly concerning - DMCH's prior ball joints were directly responsible for some major failures, now they still supply a fail prone setup? :(

Do your awesome new aluminium LCAs come with the correct nut?



I check my balls regularly.

Good move, regularly checking balls and breasts for lumps is quite important :)

[Chris4099]

About 8 years ago I performed the recall on my factory original setup. Drilling holes in the ball joints sounds difficult, but it isn't. Install the castle nut first. This then gives you a guide to place the drill bit. I drilled half way through and then started on the other side. Only takes a few minutes of drilling if you take your time.

[Kevin]

About 8 years ago I performed the recall on my factory original setup. Drilling holes in the ball joints sounds difficult, but it isn't. Install the castle nut first. This then gives you a guide to place the drill bit. I drilled half way through and then started on the other side. Only takes a few minutes of drilling if you take your time.

Thanks! Yes I was wondering about this, I've got a drill and plenty of bits, but never tried to drill through something like this. I might be trying it this weekend, so we'll see how it goes.

[Josh]

Nice! Should be a relatively easy fix despite how catastrophic it looks at first glance.

[Chris 16409]

Kevin, I also have Henninger's lower control arms. He included nyloc nuts as well as jam nuts for safety precautions. When I installed mine, I used some Loctite on the jam nuts so they wouldn't back off. However, using castle nuts and cotter pins is probably a better choice.

[Kevin]

Nice! Should be a relatively easy fix despite how catastrophic it looks at first glance.

Yeah I figured I had total ball joint failure and a ruined control arm at first glance. Now that it's in my garage, it's not as dire, I think I can get it back on the road pretty easily this weekend. Though I was looking for an excuse to get some shiny new control arms, I'm not really ready to drop a grand or more in cash on them.


Kevin, I also have Henninger's lower control arms. He included nyloc nuts as well as jam nuts for safety precautions. When I installed mine, I used some Loctite on the jam nuts so they wouldn't back off. However, using castle nuts and cotter pins is probably a better choice.

Interesting! No jam nuts on mine, PO installed the LCAs though so I'm not sure what the situation was. Yeah I'll feel much better with cotter pins after this experience.

[vps3922]

I check my balls regularly.

Good move, regularly checking balls and breasts for lumps is quite important :)

My wife always has an issue with that when I do this in public. :angry_whip:

I also crackd up reading this but stayed calm and continued to read the next posts to see if it is fine to drop a comment. Thanks for doing this for me!!! :biggrin:

[LordFly]

Yikes! A ball joint without a cotter pin!? I don't think I've EVER seen that before.

[Tillsy]

Yikes! A ball joint without a cotter pin!? I don't think I've EVER seen that before.

Steering rack tie rod ends?

[Ryan King]

Looks ALL too familiar...except mine actually snapped (John Hervey Special.) Ended up buying a new set of the UK ball joints. Now I actually feel safe.

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[Kevin]

Looks ALL too familiar...except mine actually snapped (John Hervey Special.) Ended up buying a new set of the UK ball joints. Now I actually feel safe.

287092871028711

Yikes! That's what I expected to find on mine when I first got out of the car, luckily it was still salvageable. How can we tell if a ball joint is about to shear off like that? Or is it just a surprise?

An update, since this thread is still going: last weekend I was able to drill through my ball joints and install castle nuts and cotter pins, feeling much better now. Also noticed my tie rod end boots were torn and replaced both of those.

[robvanderveer]

The ball joint boot looks torn too. This might have caused the balljoint to dry out. But i'm no expert.

[Ryan King]

The ball joint boot looks torn too. This might have caused the balljoint to dry out. But i'm no expert.

It's most likely because John Hervey uses VW Beetle Bsll Joints, the torn boot happened from the snap. I know this has happened to other forum members, and John had on his page that he has "Never had one fail"

28715

[NightFlyer]

I know this has happened to other forum members, and John had on his page that he has "Never had one fail"

And this should be the appropriate response from anyone in the know...

http://dmctalk.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=28717&d=1404683676

[jawn101]

And this should be the appropriate response from anyone in the know...

http://dmctalk.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=28717&d=1404683676

Great movie and of course the perfect JH response. Sold almost 100,000 of them last week alone and haven't heard one complaint.

[Kevin]

I have to revive this thread because IT HAPPENED AGAIN! Yes, even with cotter pins and castle nuts in place

Some how, the nut sheared through the cotter pin, and wiggled all the way loose again. Here you can see the drilled hole with sheared cotter pin still inside:

29805

And the other side is fine, just like last time:

29806

Like last time, I had just checked the ball joints about a week ago. They looked fine at a glance, I didn't worry too much because I thought I had the permanent solution in place. But in between then and now, it was not only able to back off, but also get through the cotter pin, and I get a surprise while I'm out driving. Now I don't know what to do.

What could be going on here? Is some steering or braking condition forcing this nut to back off on just this side of the car? Something with the threads on the ball joint? Again, the other side has been fine the whole time.

[NightFlyer]

I have to revive this thread because IT HAPPENED AGAIN! Yes, even with cotter pins and castle nuts in place

Some how, the nut sheared through the cotter pin, and wiggled all the way loose again. Here you can see the drilled hole with sheared cotter pin still inside:

29805

And the other side is fine, just like last time:

29806

Like last time, I had just checked the ball joints about a week ago. They looked fine at a glance, I didn't worry too much because I thought I had the permanent solution in place. But in between then and now, it was not only able to back off, but also get through the cotter pin, and I get a surprise while I'm out driving. Now I don't know what to do.

What could be going on here? Is some steering or braking condition forcing this nut to back off on just this side of the car? Something with the threads on the ball joint? Again, the other side has been fine the whole time.

Only thing I can think of is that you didn't get the lower hub hole fully seated onto the ball joint stud's knuckle before tightening down the nut. Remember that to get the nut on as tight as is required to prevent the problem you're having, you have to do something to prevent the joint's stud from spinning - I personally use vice grips. I wouldn't worry about torque specs here, but instead use a 'tight as shit' standard.

You might also try using some loctite on the threads.

Best luck :thumbup:

[Bitsyncmaster]

That cotter pin looks small in the photo. Is it an 1/8 inch pin?

[Kevin]

Only thing I can think of is that you didn't get the lower hub hole fully seated onto the ball joint stud's knuckle before tightening down the nut. Remember that to get the nut on as tight as is required to prevent the problem you're having, you have to do something to prevent the joint's stud from spinning - I personally use vice grips. I wouldn't worry about torque specs here, but instead use a 'tight as shit' standard.

You might also try using some loctite on the threads.

Best luck :thumbup:

Thanks! I didn't have the problem of the stud spinning...well I did, so I used a nut that was on the car before to seat the taper, it had looser threads, then I backed it off and put the castle nut on what I thought was very tight and had no spinning problems. But maybe it still wasn't seated all the way? Seems to be the only way to cause the damage that it did is if it broke the taper and was able to move around, and maybe explains why it keeps happening to this side, maybe this side is more difficult to seat. I remember the boot was all the way up against the knuckle, at least.

I may try again and try extra hard to make sure it's tight and seated, and do frequent inspections afterwards checking for play of a broken taper.


That cotter pin looks small in the photo. Is it an 1/8 inch pin?

Yes I suppose it is a little smaller, the service bulletin recommends a 3mm pin but mine is 3/32" (~2.4mm).

[David T]

That cotter pin looks small in the photo. Is it an 1/8 inch pin?

Maybe something is wrong or damaged with the taper and when you tighten the joint the taper is not locking both parts together as it should. It really doesn't matter how tight you get the nut, if you are not getting the parts locked together by that taper, the nut, by itself, won't hold it together. Neither will the cotter pin. At this point I would get a reamer and make sure that taper is OK before reassembling it again. Maybe you are bottoming the nut on the threads before it tightens up. Check the threads and if necessary add some washers so you don't run out of threads. Don't think that by tightening it as hard as you can will solve the problem. Something is wrong and you have to find and fix it or it will happen again. BTW you torque the nut and then rotate it till you can get the cotter pin in. More than that and you risk ripping the threads out of the nut.

[Kevin]

Maybe something is wrong or damaged with the taper and when you tighten the joint the taper is not locking both parts together as it should.

I was actually wondering this too, maybe something is physically wrong with the steering knuckle? I wouldn't know where to start in repairing that.

[David T]

Maybe something is wrong or damaged with the taper and when you tighten the joint the taper is not locking both parts together as it should. It really doesn't matter how tight you get the nut, if you are not getting the parts locked together by that taper, the nut, by itself, won't hold it together. Neither will the cotter pin. At this point I would get a reamer and make sure that taper is OK before reassembling it again. Maybe you are bottoming the nut on the threads before it tightens up. Check the threads and if necessary add some washers so you don't run out of threads. Don't think that by tightening it as hard as you can will solve the problem. Something is wrong and you have to find and fix it or it will happen again. BTW you torque the nut and then rotate it till you can get the cotter pin in. More than that and you risk ripping the threads out of the nut.

Reread this post paying special attention to the bolded and italiced sentence. You need to buy or borrow a reamer. I think it is a #2 morse taper.

[Kevin]

Reread this post paying special attention to the bolded and italiced sentence. You need to buy or borrow a reamer. I think it is a #2 morse taper.

Thanks, yeah I saw that part, just have never used a reamer

[Bitsyncmaster]

Thanks, yeah I saw that part, just have never used a reamer

Always use very slow speed with reamers. For what you want to do is just clean up the existing seating so don't remove much metal if any. I just did my ball joints this summer and noted they really don't seat that far into the knuckle. My new ball joints already had the holes for the carter pins and it just made that hole to the bottom of the castle nut cutouts. One hole I had to enlarge just a little to get the 1/8" carter pin installed.

[David T]

Always use very slow speed with reamers. For what you want to do is just clean up the existing seating so don't remove much metal if any. I just did my ball joints this summer and noted they really don't seat that far into the knuckle. My new ball joints already had the holes for the carter pins and it just made that hole to the bottom of the castle nut cutouts. One hole I had to enlarge just a little to get the 1/8" carter pin installed.

Actually you should use a tap handle on the reamer and you clean up the hole until you see the entire hole shiny, that way you know you have the proper taper over the length of the hole. It should not take much effort or removal of metal to achieve that. I do not consider this a general problem for the whole fleet. This is a problem specific to this particular car.

[Kevin]

Thanks, Dave and David. I'll look into doing this or getting this done, and maybe weigh it against just getting a NOS knuckle from DMC.