3.0l bottom end/2.8 heads and valvetrain question

[Barney10186]

Hey all got a question here. was thinkin bout sandwiching a 3.0 bottom end in the D, but retaining the stock heads while doing so. with the 3.0 even fire bottom end, what type of valvetrain gear issues will i be up against? can i use the odd cams? the even 3.0s? Idk you all tell me....lol. someone school me here

[BABIS]

Hey all got a question here. was thinkin bout sandwiching a 3.0 bottom end in the D, but retaining the stock heads while doing so. with the 3.0 even fire bottom end, what type of valvetrain gear issues will i be up against? can i use the odd cams? the even 3.0s? Idk you all tell me....lol. someone school me here

if you use the 2.8 heads you have to use even the 2.8 liners (and pistons) ..

[DMCVegas]

Crank also has to be matched to cams since 3.0 is even-fire, and 2.8 is odd. 3.0 also does not have a provision for an adjustable distributor on it's cams.

[Barney10186]

http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?7737-Common-parts-list-for-premier-prv

[Josh]

it is my understanding if you want to make it even fire (complete 3.0 bottom end) you need to install the 3.0 cams in the 2.8 heads. However the drives side cam does not have a gear for the distributor. I have heard of a guy grafting this gear to a 3.0 crank and he had a k jet 3.0! Another way you can go is just drop in the entire 3.0 as is and drill out the head and graft the cam gear on the cam and install the 2.8 distributor. If you want to use your carb maniforld it needs intake spacers (1/2" I think) in the head intake ports. EIther way some work is involved. the 3.0 is a "dumb" distributor as it has no rpm output or vacuum advance. Another thing you could do is leave everything as is and run an ignition computer. You could run coil pack ignition and install a ford edis unit for spark management. Then plunk your carb on top. Would be a weird setup but I think it could work.

edit: edis will run at 10btdc all the time without any computer. So it will start but run like shit. and drive like shit. It needs a computer to tell it to advance the spark. Still i think this method would be cool, never done before.

[Barney10186]

it is my understanding if you want to make it even fire (complete 3.0 bottom end) you need to install the 3.0 cams in the 2.8 heads. However the drives side cam does not have a gear for the distributor. I have heard of a guy grafting this gear to a 3.0 crank and he had a k jet 3.0! Another way you can go is just drop in the entire 3.0 as is and drill out the head and graft the cam gear on the cam and install the 2.8 distributor. If you want to use your carb maniforld it needs intake spacers (1/2" I think) in the head intake ports. EIther way some work is involved. the 3.0 is a "dumb" distributor as it has no rpm output or vacuum advance. Another thing you could do is leave everything as is and run an ignition computer. You could run coil pack ignition and install a ford edis unit for spark management. Then plunk your carb on top. Would be a weird setup but I think it could work.

edit: edis will run at 10btdc all the time without any computer. So it will start but run like shit. and drive like shit. It needs a computer to tell it to advance the spark. Still i think this method would be cool, never done before.

Interesting, wonder if the odd fire crank will work with the 3.0 crankcase? Anyone done that one? although josh i like the idea of just running the new ignition side like you said to avoid all the cam gear nonsense. im trying to find the most practicle combination of parts that jive together. i feel like mix-n-matching.

[Rich W]

Interesting, wonder if the odd fire crank will work with the 3.0 crankcase? Anyone done that one?

Yep, I have one of those ... but I have not tried firing it up yet. Maybe later this year?

I purchased the 3.0L/2.8L "hybrid" engine from Marty Maier a few years ago. Marty built the engine based on a new crate 3.0L engine.

[Barney10186]

Yep, I have one of those ... but I have not tried firing it up yet. Maybe later this year?

I purchased the 3.0L/2.8L "hybrid" engine from Marty Maier a few years ago. Marty built the engine based on a new crate 3.0L engine.
awesome rich! you know what specific internals etc your hybrid consists of?

[Rich W]

awesome rich! you know what specific internals etc your hybrid consists of?

I need to check with Marty on the specifics. The engine was purchased as part of a package deal from Marty Maier.

[DMCVegas]

I have seen that conversion of moving the distributor gear over to a 3.0 cam. that is tons, and tons of work and not really worth it.

Now the one thing that I am honestly not sure of, and this is what I would ask someone who has a cracked one of these open would be the following:


Are 3.0L Cylinders compatible with 2.8L Heads.
Are 3.0L Connecting Rods Compatible with the 2.8L Crankshaft?
Is the 2.8L Crankshaft compatible with the 3.0L Upper Crankcase?



I don't see what the problem with the pistons and cylinder heads would be. The displacement is marginal, but it's there. The real question would be if you had to swap those connecting rods out, and if the crank is a direct swap.

If the cranks cannot be swapped between blocks, that's no big deal. What you would do is use the 2.8L block in it's entirety. Then just swap over the 3.0L Pistons, Sleeves, and Crankshafts. From there you just have to see if the Connecting Rods on the 3.0L Pistons will connect to the 2.8L Crank. If not, you're gonna have to swap them out. If yes, no big deal.

You should still be able to get a Carb Conversion kit from over in the UK which includes the manifold and everything. It's meant for the 2.8L Alpine engine.

Off the top of my head, I don't know what the rod lengths, pistons sizes, or even the displacement of the cylinder heads are between the engines. So when swapping heads, I'm not sure what the final displacement or compression ratios will be though. Such a conversion should be around $2,000 or so to complete. That however is just the start. Really it should be a bit higher because you're going to want to port and polish those heads up and install some performance cams to extract even more power. Which depending would probably be another $3,000 or so. That still doesn't even figure in a proper exhaust either. But in the end I don't know what the gains would be to tell you if it would even be worth it compared to the cost. When you start looking at the work that has to be done, and the price of parts, DMCH's Stage II engine upgrade really does show itself as an honest price. The only difference in between is the labor.

The 3.0L engines have been around for about 26-17 years or so. I would think that if there were such an easy conversion to build the engine, someone would have figured it out by now and we'd probably all have it in our cars. Not that I'm trying to discourage you, but hey, I'd say to explore it more and see what you can do.

[Barney10186]

any information you can provide me will be priceless! really looking forward to getting a gameplan for hybrid build

[Delorean Industries]

Our twin turbo uses a 3.0 bottom end, 2.8 pistons, 2.8 heads, 3.0 cams, 2.7 rockers.

[Barney10186]

any information you can provide me will be priceless! really looking forward to getting a gameplan for hybrid build

ive been asking myself all these same questions! and yeah if i can do somethin crazy like keep the odd cams/crank ill just shave 1mm off the heads, throw flat tops in it and get eds fast cams made with the retard for the shaved head so valve timing stays sane. i want more displacement, compression, and air in/out. no preference of odd or even fire, but massive head proting and valve work will be done by me, plus ill be fabbing headers and exhaust as well. oh and fyi 10186 is running a Peugeot 604 intake with motorcraft 2100 like a boss.

[Barney10186]

ive been asking myself all these same questions! and yeah if i can do somethin crazy like keep the odd cams/crank ill just shave 1mm off the heads, throw flat tops in it and get eds fast cams made with the retard for the shaved head so valve timing stays sane. i want more displacement, compression, and air in/out. no preference of odd or even fire, but massive head proting and valve work will be done by me, plus ill be fabbing headers and exhaust as well. oh and fyi 10186 is running a Peugeot 604 intake with motorcraft 2100 like a boss.

was wondering when Josh would come across this one! lol. its joshs fault he had that oh so tempting display of wonderful delorean performance parts laid out at dcs. cams caught my eye josh! actually id much rather source my parts from dpi. stuffs amazing

[DMCVegas]

ive been asking myself all these same questions! and yeah if i can do somethin crazy like keep the odd cams/crank ill just shave 1mm off the heads...

Double-check on that one, but I don't believe you'll be able to. At least not from what I've heard. The problem is that the cams are mounted in the heads, not the block, connected with lifters to the valves. As such when you pull the head closer to the block, you lengthen the amount of slack in the timing chain. To get rid of that slack the chain gets pulled down by the tensioner, and the gear's timing will be off. By the same token I've also heard of at least one owner who did this and said they had no problems, but again, it's not optimal.

Now if you have cams that are cut specifically for this, that would be great. But what we really need is an adjustable pulley.

[dmc6960]

Double-check on that one, but I don't believe you'll be able to. At least not from what I've heard. The problem is that the cams are mounted in the heads, not the block, connected with lifters to the valves. As such when you pull the head closer to the block, you lengthen the amount of slack in the timing chain. To get rid of that slack the chain gets pulled down by the tensioner, and the gear's timing will be off. By the same token I've also heard of at least one owner who did this and said they had no problems, but again, it's not optimal.

Now if you have cams that are cut specifically for this, that would be great. But what we really need is an adjustable pulley.

Yes you can do it with a caveat. Read the whole post again and you'll see mention of using Ed's cams, which are reground with the timing adjusted for a 1mm shave. I have this in my engine and to my knowledge so does someone in NJ. I'm sure there is more by now, I did mine in 2009. 35k+ miles later engine is still running strong.

[DMCVegas]

Yes you can do it with a caveat. Read the whole post again and you'll see mention of using Ed's cams, which are reground with the timing adjusted for a 1mm shave. I have this in my engine and to my knowledge so does someone in NJ. I'm sure there is more by now, I did mine in 2009. 35k+ miles later engine is still running strong.

28684

[Barney10186]

Now thats what i like to hear! here we go...........

[outatym2001]

Hey all got a question here. was thinkin bout sandwiching a 3.0 bottom end in the D, but retaining the stock heads while doing so. with the 3.0 even fire bottom end, what type of valvetrain gear issues will i be up against? can i use the odd cams? the even 3.0s? Idk you all tell me....lol. someone school me here
I highly DO NOT recommend it but if you are doing all the work yourself then all you have to lose is your time and money.
I have been driving the set-up you describe (3.0 liter bottom end with the original DeLorean 2.8 liter heads and intake) for thirteen (13) years. Yes, thirteen years. I mentioned the engine transformation and the name of the shop that did the combining of two engines into one thirteen years ago on the DML (DeLorean Mailing List) but the links I had were no longer of any good.
I have put on about 100,000 miles on this modified engine in the past thirteen years.

The camshafts are a higher lift cam and who made them or where they came from before being installed in my Frankenstein engine I have no idea. The camshaft for cylinders 4,5,6 had to have a special gear ground onto it to make it work for this even fire engine set-up.
I have to use a MAHLE OC 142 oil filter.
My fuel injectors are Bosch 0437502013.
My fuel distributor is from some thing? It’s a Bosch unit and has the numbers on the exterior label 0 438 100 105.
My electrical distributor cap and the rotor, which is for an even fire engine, came from somewhere? I lost that information but there is a number on the exterior of the cap. The cap is not at all easy to get to so I don’t know If I will ever look for that number. The base of the cap has to be grounded off to expose the single tab that sticks downward. That tab sits in the slot of the metal housing on top of the electrical distributor. A steel hose clamp holds the base of the cap so it remains centered on top of the distributor or the cap will not stay exactly where it should since the base of the cap has been ground off.
The starter motor came from somewhere and I know not where. My starter motor makes a sound unlike any other DeLoreans with the original equipment.
A small steel sleeve was added around the crankshaft because the front main seal wasn’t making a perfect seal and oil was slowly escaping and being thrown around by the main pulley wheel.
The spark plug wires and spark plugs with the single electrode are the same that everyone uses in their original equipment 2.8 liter engine.
The v-shaped timing chain cover is from the original DeLorean 2.8 liter engine and it was leaking oil many years after the transformation so my friends at DMC Northwest removed it and resealed it.
I always, ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS had premature detonation, pinging, knocking especially during the hottest days of summer. And I ALWAYS used 92-octane fuel from either Chevron, Texaco, 76, Shell. An additive from Red Line called Complete Fuel System Cleaner always helped a little. The approximate compression ratio is now 10.1 to 1 thus requiring premium unleaded all day every day.

Fast forward to September 2013.
After all those years I finally had an engine overheat condition and continued to add coolant while I drove the DeLorean to work. I made an appointment with DMC Northwest and limped there early in the morning of course while overheating in traffic. I would pull over rest a while then add more coolant then keep on driving.
It was found the head gasket was allowing coolant into cylinder number 3 and washing the cylinder out real good!!! The top of the piston inside cylinder number 3 was like brand new. DMC Northwest had to remove both heads and have them checked by another shop for any warping or cracking. Fortunately for me there was no warping or cracking found.
Then they found that the sprocket on the end of the camshaft for cylinders 1,2,3 was incorrect.
It was impossible to properly time the engine when both the left and right banks of valves were not opening and closing at the proper time!!!
No wonder I ALWAYS had premature detonation, pinging, knocking especially during the hottest days of summer.
DMC Northwest did some research and came up with a better sprocket for the camshaft over cylinders 1,2,3. And, now the pinging is virtually gone.

Fast forward to October 2013.
OOPS THE ENGINE OVERHEATED AGAIN and I limped into DMC Northwest and paid the bill for their service on November 4, 2013.
This time it was coolant found in the oil pan.
The engine had to be raised slightly to remove the oil pan to locate the leaking source.
The source confirmed to be leaking cylinder liner base seals, particularly #3, but #1 and #2 to a lesser extent.
Next the head for cylinders 1,2,3 had to be removed again. And, the pistons, connecting rods and cylinder liners 1,2,3 had to be removed from the engine block to install brand new cylinder liner base seals. The original base seals were pitted and corroded so no wonder they couldn’t provide a good seal. The base seals are steel by the way.

I got so sick of these very expensive engine repairs that I finally bought another vehicle as a daily driver in January 2014. I still have the D though and it runs just fine.

[Barney10186]

28742wow what an interesting combo of stuff eh? welp i picked up a 1991 dodge monaco today with 123k for 375$. runs great! drove it home. so im gonna get into it one day here. kinda hate to dismantle it cuz the car actually is a good car. ac works n all! has anyone tried to use the oddfire 2.8 crank with the odd setup on a 3.0 block?

[NightFlyer]

kinda hate to dismantle it cuz the car actually is a good car.

They were really nice cars for what they were.

And that's a really solid/good looking Monaco for $375!

[Barney10186]

2875328754best part is its purple!!!! lol. im cursed

[NightFlyer]

2875328754best part is its purple!!!! lol. im cursed

:shock:

[Barney10186]

after reviewing some wiring diagrams on the monacos oem ecm, it appears to me that simply retaining the wiring and computer from the monaco would be fairly simple to just wire up what i need to get it live. or am i one of the lucky people who just happens to have an entire running donor car?

[NightFlyer]

after reviewing some wiring diagrams on the monacos oem ecm, it appears to me that simply retaining the wiring and computer from the monaco would be fairly simple to just wire up what i need to get it live. or am i one of the lucky people who just happens to have an entire running donor car?

This is a question I posed a while back, and never did get a straight answer from anyone.

Personally, I don't see why you couldn't use the donor ECU and fuel management system. This is something that Farrah was always interested in pursuing as a long term project.

[Josh]

Ill just relay the PM to this thread for future reference:

This is basically as everyone assumes going into a 3.0 swap haha. There is one issue and its is a big one... The crankshaft position sensor. It reads off a large ring mounted to the flexplate and is mounted to the eagle bellhousing. You will be removing both. Steve S (protodelorean) tried to weld this trigger wheel to his flywheel and cut a hole in the delorean bellhousing and mounted the CPS and he could not get it to fire. I asked him about this at DCS, as it is documented in his blog and he said he never measured so many times or double triple quadroople checked anything so much... like he went all out trying to line this sensor and trigger wheel up. And still no dice. So I didnt even bother. He had a full car as well.

If you did get it running you would be limited with upgrades. You could not tune for cams, porting, exhaust, intake, etc... Upgrading these things would probably lose you power as the computer would try to compensate and without remapping the spark and fuel maps it would run pretty bad. There would be no way to do any tuning to the eagle computer.

[NightFlyer]

Ill just relay the PM to this thread for future reference:

This is basically as everyone assumes going into a 3.0 swap haha. There is one issue and its is a big one... The crankshaft position sensor. It reads off a large ring mounted to the flexplate and is mounted to the eagle bellhousing. You will be removing both. Steve S (protodelorean) tried to weld this trigger wheel to his flywheel and cut a hole in the delorean bellhousing and mounted the CPS and he could not get it to fire. I asked him about this at DCS, as it is documented in his blog and he said he never measured so many times or double triple quadroople checked anything so much... like he went all out trying to line this sensor and trigger wheel up. And still no dice. So I didnt even bother. He had a full car as well.

If you did get it running you would be limited with upgrades. You could not tune for cams, porting, exhaust, intake, etc... Upgrading these things would probably lose you power as the computer would try to compensate and without remapping the spark and fuel maps it would run pretty bad. There would be no way to do any tuning to the eagle computer.

That's pretty much what other responses said - there's no practical way of doing it easily (relatively speaking of course, as no swap is truly plug and play easy) and that it doesn't make much sense to do it the hard way because of the inherent limitations.

Makes sense, unless you're one those types who likes doing things the hard way for minimum gain (something that I've been accused of being a few times here and over on Today) :wink:

[Barney10186]

dang. gotta be another way to get that crank sensor/signal issue resolved. hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

[Barney10186]

so did anyone answer the will the odd fire crank just plop right into a 3.0 crankcase? bill seemed fairly opposed to this but im curious if the option is there.

[DMC-81]

I can understand the desire to do the 3.0 swap, based on my surprising first encounter with an Eagle Premier. It was 1992, and I was driving my beloved 1987 black Scirocco 16V, on a deserted road. An Eagle passed me, but I was not going to let a four door sedan get the best of me. Well, to summarize a 30 minute drive..... I couldn't catch him.
:headscratch:
Oh well, on another note, now I understand my attraction to the Delorean, as I found out that the original Scirocco was also designed by Giugiaro.

Good luck with the swap!

[Andrew]

Sorry to bring life back to an old thread, but I'm in the process of researching a 3.0 build with 2.8 heads as a long-term project. While both of my 2.8s are running well at the moment, since the supply of reasonably used 2.8's has pretty much dried up, I am looking into options for a 3.0 build down the road. The plan is as follows:

* 3.0 Block, Crank and Pistons

* 2.8 heads and cams retimed for the even-fire of the 3.0. (This will be a good opportunity to upgrade to performance cams)

* Custom distributor likely built by combining a early 80's BMW even-fire 6 cylinder distributor with a stock DMC unit. (In the alternative, Farrar's car is using a modified AMC/Jeep 4.2 distributor)

* Peugeot 604 Intake and Carb

* Mechanical Fuel Pump


Based upon the posts of others in the thread, the 2.8 and 2.7 heads can be mated to the 3.0 block. Furthermore, as evidenced by Farrar's recent 3.0 swap, the 2.8/2.7 cams can be utilized in the 3.0. So why not run the stock 3.0 bottom end with the stock 2.8 heads retimed for even-fire operation? I'm trying to avoid drilling holes in 3.0 heads, making intake adapter plates and dealing with alternator / AC compressor fitment issues that go along with using the 3.0 heads.

My question is how would I go about setting-up the timing chains on the above referenced design? According to my research, the 2.8 and 3.0 use the exact same timing chains. While I wasn't able to verify the timing gear part numbers for the 3.0 vs the 2.8, it is interesting to note that the even fire Volvo B280F uses the same cam and crank timing gears as the odd-fire B28F.

If anyone has a set of 3.0 and 2.8 timing gears laying around could you post a comparison picture?

Also what head gaskets does one use when installing 2.8 heads on a 3.0? The 3.0 head gaskets appear to be a 3.0 exclusive.

Any thoughts would be appreciated!

Andrew
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[Farrar]

Deleted earlier post because I misread something. Never mind. Sorry.

So are you trying to build an even-firing 2.8L by using the 3.0L timing sprockets?

[Farrar]

Timing chain info from Monaco/Premier workbook. Maybe this will be helpful?

5585055849558515585255853

[dn010]

The timing "gears" should be the same across the board between PRV odd, even, 3.0 as far as having 38 teeth on the cam sprocket. All it's doing is getting the 1:2 ratio between crank and camshafts so if you go messing around with different size sprockets you'll lose that ratio and your engine won't run. The difference is with the camshafts as far as valve timing, and the crankshaft as far as the split journals.

I read you want to retain the 2.8 heads - just note that you'll get better flow and performance from the 3.0 heads, if that matters to you. Also, from past conversations, if you have 2.8 even-fire camshafts, you can send them to Josh/DPI to have a performance grind done. I have not done this yet, but it is an option.

[Andrew]

Thanks for the replies. Basically, my idea is to build a even fire 3.0 engine with 2.8 heads and 2.8 cams. Essentially, the only difference between this build and Farrar's engine would be the use of 2.8 heads on my 3.0 engine. I would have never thought that the odd fire 2.8 cams would work in an even fire 3.0 engine, but Bill and Farrar have proven otherwise.

While I agree that the 3.0 heads have better flow, I would like to avoid having to drill the distributor and mechanical fuel pump holes in the 3.0 heads and I would also like to avoid using adapter plates for the intake manifold.

I watched the video that Bill made in which he explained why the odd fire cams will work in the even fire engine. However, I would presume that at least the passenger side camshaft would have to be set in a different position on the 3.0 vs the 2.8. Otherwise, the valve timing would be out of sequence with the even fire engine.

Perhaps I'm using the wrong term, but is the alignment reference tab on the 3.0 passenger timing gear in a different positon than the 2.8?

Farrar, could you ask Bill if he set up the timing chains and gears on the 3.0 per the Eagle shop manual? (thank you for the pictures the pages). Also, did Bill have a reason for not using the 2.8 heads on the 3.0 block?

Thank you!

Andrew
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[Farrar]

In the world of the PRV engine, there's no such thing as an "odd-fire camshaft" or an "even-fire camshaft." Chains and sprockets, yes - camshafts, no.

I will send your question to Bill since I don't have the information you require.

Edit: Forgot to address your other question. I think the reason for not using the 2.8L heads on the 3.0L block was a combination of the rot holes in the 2.8L heads (also possibly failed head gaskets and/or cylinder liners) and the fact that fitting a distributor and fuel pump was easier than swapping heads.

[Farrar]

Bill says he's sure that the indexing marks on 3.0L chains are in different locations than those on 2.8L chains; otherwise, valves would be opening and closing at the wrong times. Chains themselves are likely the same length, since the timing chain covers are the same size, heads are in the same location, etc.

Bill also says that a user named "Admiral Senn" built a hybrid 2.8L/3.0L engine. Try looking up that user name here on DMCTalk and send him a message. He could probably give you all the information you need for this project.

[Andrew]

Bill says he's sure that the indexing marks on 3.0L chains are in different locations than those on 2.8L chains; otherwise, valves would be opening and closing at the wrong times. Chains themselves are likely the same length, since the timing chain covers are the same size, heads are in the same location, etc.

Bill also says that a user named "Admiral Senn" built a hybrid 2.8L/3.0L engine. Try looking up that user name here on DMCTalk and send him a message. He could probably give you all the information you need for this project.


Farrar: Thank you to you and Bill for the information. I greatly appreciate it! I compared the Eagle shop manual pages that you provided with the DMC shop manual and confirmed that the method for installing / setting the timing chains is identical for the 2.8 and the 3.0. Thus, I figured that the sprockets had to have different timing marks.

I've currently got a Oldsmobile 403 that has taken up residence on my engine stand pending its installation in my 1985 Toronado, but once that project is complete (hopefully later this spring) I will start my 3.0 build.

I'll get a hold of Admiral Senn and see if he has any further information / input regarding this build.

Thanks again!

Andrew
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[AdmiralSenn]

Farrar: Thank you to you and Bill for the information. I greatly appreciate it! I compared the Eagle shop manual pages that you provided with the DMC shop manual and confirmed that the method for installing / setting the timing chains is identical for the 2.8 and the 3.0. Thus, I figured that the sprockets had to have different timing marks.

I've currently got a Oldsmobile 403 that has taken up residence on my engine stand pending its installation in my 1985 Toronado, but once that project is complete (hopefully later this spring) I will start my 3.0 build.

I'll get a hold of Admiral Senn and see if he has any further information / input regarding this build.

Thanks again!

Andrew
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I have been summoned.....

Just to clarify, I did NOT create the frankenmotor described in this thread. I inherited it already-finished from a DPO (Dreaded Previous Owner).

The motor uses a stock 2.8 crankcase and crankshaft, with rods and pistons from a 3.0 Premier engine. The 2.8 block was fly cut to accept the larger diameter piston liners from the 3.0 engine. As far as I have been able to tell, everything else was OEM 2.8 (timing components, cams, heads, etc).

The engine performed pretty well, the PO estimated it was worth in the neighborhood of 50hp at the crank, but he also was quick to point out that for the price of the machine work you could do literally almost anything else to get better results. He claimed to have dyno'd the car at ~200 rwhp with the addition of custom headers and exhaust and a freer flowing intake - lots of people have been quick to dump all over this number though and I never got to dyno it for myself. Unfortunately this motor is dead and the car has sat for 6+ years as I ran into some difficult life situations and have only recently gotten to the point where I can start contemplating resurrecting the car again.

If you have a serious interest in the short block let me know, I'd be very willing to let it go for very little - mostly I would just want to cover the cost to ship it. In its current state you would definitely want to have the entire thing disassembled and professionally evaluated, I believe there is some damage to the crankshaft bearing surfaces and the assembly needs to be rebalanced at a minimum. It's just taking up space in my garage right now, I was planning to convert it to a coffee table as a trophy of sorts. But it would be cheaper to fix it up than to duplicate the work.

[Farrar]

the car has sat for 6+ years as I ran into some difficult life situations and have only recently gotten to the point where I can start contemplating resurrecting the car again.

Off topic, but I have to jump in here and say I sympathize. My car sat for over two years because of a bunch of unplanned life events (it's now running thanks to a replacement engine, but it's still a work in progress). I'm glad that you, too, are able to look at getting yours back on the road, however long it has taken. Hang in there! :)

[Andrew]

Now that I have finally completed the 403 swap on my 1985 Toronado, I have an empty engine stand which will soon be fitted with a 3.0 sourced from a 1989 Eagle Premier. With the helpful information from Bill and Farrar and a little additional research, I have confirmed that the valve timing difference between the odd-fire 2.8 PRV and the even-fire 3.0 PRV is the result of the timing chain that runs the fuel pump side cylinder head. (For the sake of simplicity of left / right references between rear engine Delorean as opposed to front engine Eagle, I will simply refer to the sides of the engine in terms of distributor side and mechanical fuel pump side.) Specifically, the Eagle engine uses the same timing chain as every odd fire PRV for the distributor side cylinder head. In contrast, the Eagle uses an Eagle specific chain for the fuel pump side! The reference points on the gears and the cams are the same. Even the procedure for setting the timing chains is the same between the Eagle shop manual and the DeLorean shop manual, the difference comes down to the reference timing links on the Eagle's center timing chain which runs the cam on the fuel pump side of the engine.

With regard to spark, I have opted to borrow Bill and Farrar's use of a cut-down AMC 4.2 distributor with a timing gear grafted from a stock DeLorean distributor.

In regard to fuel, I'm planning to utilize a fuel delivery system that has been successfully used by Alpine A310 tuners which consists of a Peugeot / Renault Alpine manifold modified to accept a Holley 390 4bbl carb.

However, since the 2.8 and the 3.0 use different head gaskets, this begs the question of what head gaskets to use when mating the 2.8 heads to the 3.0 block???

Any insight would be greatly appreciated!

Andrew
4194
5052

[vwdmc16]

The cylinders are larger inside diameter on the 3.0. Smaller on the 2.85. Id say use the headgasket that corresponds with what CYLINDERS you are using.

[Andrew]

The cylinders are larger inside diameter on the 3.0. Smaller on the 2.85. Id say use the headgasket that corresponds with what CYLINDERS you are using.

Thanks! That's what I was thinking!

[dn010]

Best I can suggest absent any other advice is to take the gasket, set it on the block and see if there are any holes that need to be enlarged etc. If you get a block with some good 3.0 heads, let me know, I'd buy them off you.

[Ken Hudson]

Ill just relay the PM to this thread for future reference:

This is basically as everyone assumes going into a 3.0 swap haha. There is one issue and its is a big one... The crankshaft position sensor. It reads off a large ring mounted to the flexplate and is mounted to the eagle bellhousing. You will be removing both. Steve S (protodelorean) tried to weld this trigger wheel to his flywheel and cut a hole in the delorean bellhousing and mounted the CPS and he could not get it to fire. I asked him about this at DCS, as it is documented in his blog and he said he never measured so many times or double triple quadroople checked anything so much... like he went all out trying to line this sensor and trigger wheel up. And still no dice. So I didnt even bother. He had a full car as well.

If you did get it running you would be limited with upgrades. You could not tune for cams, porting, exhaust, intake, etc... Upgrading these things would probably lose you power as the computer would try to compensate and without remapping the spark and fuel maps it would run pretty bad. There would be no way to do any tuning to the eagle computer.

I posted a couple days ago " CA smog legal 3.0 motor swap" I was required to use the premier computer to drive the fuel injection, spark, EGR etc. I built a wheel out of an old cam timing disc I had laying around and welded it to the back of the crank pulley. Mounted the trigger on a small aluminum plate below it. Runs great. Important: wrap a bare wire around57970 the trigger wire the full length and ground it, use it as a drain, it fixed a slight random missfire

[dn010]

Andrew is planning to go carb with his 3.0.

As far as your trigger wire, if you use a shielded wire you'll have 0 problems.

https://www.diyautotune.com/product/wire-single-core-shielded-20-gauge-10-39/

[FABombjoy]

Important: wrap a bare wire around57970 the trigger wire the full length and ground it, use it as a drain, it fixed a slight random missfire
That must have been fun to track down! :)

I had a similar issue (misfire/sync error due to false crank tooth detection). Used this stuff:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01BIBQ940/

Since it's woven, you can expand it out (like a finger trap) to pass over connectors without disassembly, then cinch it back tight, tape the ends, and tie to ground.

[Ken Hudson]

That must have been fun to track down! :)

I had a similar issue (misfire/sync error due to false crank tooth detection). Used this stuff:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01BIBQ940/

Since it's woven, you can expand it out (like a finger trap) to pass over connectors without disassembly, then cinch it back tight, tape the ends, and tie to ground.

I used the stock premier trigger wire and trigger which I assume is shielded, i didn't cut it open to see. I don't believe the shield as it was was completing a circuit so I wrapped 18 ga solid bare wire around the entire length and grounded both ends so it could drain any cross signals conflicting with the trigger. the only other thing I did at the time was align the reluctor tabs so they hit dead center of the trigger. I have to admit that either one could have been my salvation, I hate misses.