R134a heads up

[lindbergh]

in 2017 all car models will be using a new refrigerant R1234yf to replace the current standard R134a. Just a heads up, while R134a will NOT be banned (like R-12), it will be HEAVILY taxed to make it cost ineffective for consumers to add a can or 2 per year on a leaking system. It is expected that some car mfrs. will beat the 2017 model year deadline. It is unknown if R1234yf will be available to end consumers (in small cans), as it does have flammable properties. Just an FYI to let you know R134a will eventually get very expensive.

[Bitsyncmaster]

It will just mean people will use propane since the correct refrigerant is also flammable.

[NightFlyer]

It will just mean people will use propane since the correct refrigerant is also flammable.

FBI will bust yo ass, remember - after all, government has to protect DuPont's monopoly on A/C refrigerants ;)


http://news.yahoo.com/fbi-issues-warning-air-conditioner-coolant-213226642.html

[DMCMW Dave]

Just to make things more interesting, R1234yf runs at extremely high pressure, so the equipment to service it is frightfully expensive, and it will never be a DIY item. It's not something that will be retrofitable to older cars either.

I've heard (didn't look it up just now) that the 2017 timetable will likely move out since the conversion in within the industry isn't going well. The real push for it is within the EU.

Just google R1234yf - there's tons to read about it.

Here's a good start:

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/tag/r1234yf/

PS this time it's Honeywell. . . ..

[David T]

Just to make things more interesting, R1234yf runs at extremely high pressure, so the equipment to service it is frightfully expensive, and it will never be a DIY item. It's not something that will be retrofitable to older cars either.

I've heard (didn't look it up just now) that the 2017 timetable will likely move out since the conversion in within the industry isn't going well. The real push for it is within the EU.

Just google R1234yf - there's tons to read about it.

Here's a good start:

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/tag/r1234yf/

PS this time it's Honeywell. . . ..

As they introduce refrigerants requiring higher and higher operating pressures the efficiency goes down while the equipment gets more and more costly. The higher pressure equipment also tends to leak more requiring more service. In my house I had to go with 410A and the evap coils are being recalled because they all leak. Can't handle the pressure. And as this high pressure equipment ages it will only leak worse. This is government protecting us from ourselves and we have to pay for it.

[Spittybug]

Lest there be any doubters out there.... you do know that a single volcanic eruption emits more ozone depleting chemicals into the atmosphere that man has since the dawn of time, right?

The whole global warming, er rather global climate change agenda, is so steeped in bogus science it isn't funny. Totally a political agenda. Al Gore.

Before anyone accuses me of not caring, how about this as a solution; let's address all the pollution issues that are IRREFUTABLE first, such as dumping in the oceans, poisonous runoff, and harmful stuff like that? After all, if the forests and oceans are in good shape, all the CO2 we produce will be consumed by the plants and turned right back into oxygen if they are healthy. And the increase in temperature all fear? This will create more cloud cover as water evaporates, blanketing more of the earth and reflecting more sunlight, thus cycling back to cooling (the normal cycle we have experienced for eons). We puny humans are no match for mother nature.

[David T]

Lest there be any doubters out there.... you do know that a single volcanic eruption emits more ozone depleting chemicals into the atmosphere that man has since the dawn of time, right?

The whole global warming, er rather global climate change agenda, is so steeped in bogus science it isn't funny. Totally a political agenda. Al Gore.

Before anyone accuses me of not caring, how about this as a solution; let's address all the pollution issues that are IRREFUTABLE first, such as dumping in the oceans, poisonous runoff, and harmful stuff like that? After all, if the forests and oceans are in good shape, all the CO2 we produce will be consumed by the plants and turned right back into oxygen if they are healthy. And the increase in temperature all fear? This will create more cloud cover as water evaporates, blanketing more of the earth and reflecting more sunlight, thus cycling back to cooling (the normal cycle we have experienced for eons). We puny humans are no match for mother nature.


Responding to this can be seen as a political argument. I agree this whole climate change issue is being overdone. One volcano burping can undo all of our human efforts for the next 100 years. Even the "new" refrigerants will have an environmental impact. Maybe even worse than what we have now when they realize something they were not aware of like when Freon was first introduced as the new class of "Safety" refrigerants. It WAS safer than Ammonia until you passed it through a flame and created Phosgene gas!

[vwdmc16]

From what I've read it does Not run at significantly higher pressures, and it is pretty much a "drop in" gas. However it isn't quiet as efficent as r134a. Also yes its more flammable.

[NightFlyer]

PS this time it's Honeywell. . . ..

I do so stand corrected :)

But DuPont isn't sitting this inning out. While Honeywell may have the patent, it's a Honeywell/DuPont joint venture that will be manufacturing the new refrigerant together. And DuPont is the only one that Honeywell is currently letting in on the deal:

"The patent holder, Honeywell, is under a multipronged legal assault on its patents, because it has not granted a FRAND (fair, reasonable and nondiscriminatory) license to other refrigerant producers (aside from its joint venture with DuPont)."

http://www.motor.com/article.asp?article_ID=2039

[mluder]

The whole global warming, er rather global climate change agenda, is so steeped in bogus science it isn't funny. Totally a political agenda. Al Gore.


Oh yeah... I forgot you're a climatologist... and you must be one of the 3% of scientists who don't believe that global climate change exists and is most likely man-made.
Good luck with that...

You know even if only 50% of scientists beloved it I'd still err on the side of caution. If someone told me that if I walked down a certain street their was a 50% chance I'd be it on the head with a falling piano that be enough to make me rethink my route. Now if it was a 97% chance is be an idiot to do nothing.

[hmcelraft]

Oh yeah... I forgot you're a climatologist... and you must be one of the 3% of scientists who don't believe that global climate change exists and is most likely man-made.
Good luck with that...

You know even if only 50% of scientists beloved it I'd still err on the side of caution. If someone told me that if I walked down a certain street their was a 50% chance I'd be it on the head with a falling piano that be enough to make me rethink my route. Now if it was a 97% chance is be an idiot to do nothing.

Climate change, if any, is not the issue that is going to ruin your day. It is the yahoo that is trying his best to kill you because - well, you're you!

[lindbergh]

The EU is going to CO2 and that runs at exceptionally high pressures and requires complete redesign (no shortage worry of CO2 though). R1234yf does not require abnormally high pressures.

[Chris 16409]

Has anybody used this stuff called RedTek 12A? Seems like a better option than 134a. It's made in the USA.

30007

[Chris4099]

Lest there be any doubters out there.... you do know that a single volcanic eruption emits more ozone depleting chemicals into the atmosphere that man has since the dawn of time, right?

The whole global warming, er rather global climate change agenda, is so steeped in bogus science it isn't funny. Totally a political agenda. Al Gore.

I take it you don't know that most HCIs release from volcanoes never reaches the stratosphere and are therefor no threat to the ozone layer. Not that I'm sure what you have to say really matters in this conversation since it was originally about R-134a and alternatives that are not ozone depleting. As for your last comment, you should really understand that environmental science != political science. Scientific issues like global warming are non-partisan. The only time these two areas should meet are when it comes to how to address matters or concerns through political means such as policies and regulations. So while not being happy with the way the issue is being addressed is one thing, pretending the issue doesn't exist all is rather unfortunate and misleading.


Just to make things more interesting, R1234yf runs at extremely high pressure, so the equipment to service it is frightfully expensive, and it will never be a DIY item. It's not something that will be retrofitable to older cars either.


I'm not finding this anywhere. R1234yf appears to run at almost the exact same operating pressures as R134a does. I can see equipment being a bit more expensive at first but wouldn't that simply be due to demand? No reason it would be any different then R134a equipment other then the connections as far as I can tell. Admittedly I haven't done too much research on this yet as I'm still years away from owning a car with R1234yf and even longer before needing to service it.

Now CO2 based systems are another matter. They are much higher pressures and I can totally see that being out of the hands of a home mechanic. It will be interesting to see if the German auto makers continue to proceed down this route while everybody else will be switching to R1234yf.

As for R1234yf not being retrofitable for existing R-134a systems, that is my understanding as well. I'm not too worried about that though as R-134a is still available. If the OP is concerned, they should make sure their system is properly converted using new non-NOS hoses. I'm running R-134a in my system and I haven't needed a recharge in nearly 4 years (since I last filled it). Only a poorly done conversion will require constant recharges.

Edit: I should point out != means "does not equal". Habit of mine since I got my computer science degree. LOL

[Bitsyncmaster]

Has anybody used this stuff called RedTek 12A? Seems like a better option than 134a. It's made in the USA.

30007

Pretty sure 12A and 22A are just propane.

[Chris4099]

I think you are right. The RedTek 12a MSDS lists Alkanes as being a hazardous ingredient. Alkanes are hydrocarbons such as propane.

[DMCMW Dave]

A - I take it you don't know that most HCIs release from volcanoes never reaches the stratosphere and are therefor no threat to the ozone layer.

----

B - I'm not finding this anywhere. R1234yf appears to run at almost the exact same operating pressures as R134a does. LOL

A - I'm just curious about that one, why not? Different HCI formula/weight?

B - The pressure thing sounds right now. I was running from memory and probably confused CO2 systems with R1234yf systems in some earlier reading. After re-looking I agree with you. But they do state pretty clearly that it won't be a retrofit product, not sure why.

[mluder]

I take it you don't know that most HCIs release from volcanoes never reaches the stratosphere and are therefor no threat to the ozone layer. Not that I'm sure what you have to say really matters in this conversation since it was originally about R-134a and alternatives that are not ozone depleting. As for your last comment, you should really understand that environmental science != political science. Scientific issues like global warming are non-partisan. The only time these two areas should meet are when it comes to how to address matters or concerns through political means such as policies and regulations. So while not being happy with the way the issue is being addressed is one thing, pretending the issue doesn't exist all is rather unfortunate and misleading.



That's what I meant to say... Chris is much more eloquent than I am.

[Chris4099]

A - I'm just curious about that one, why not? Different HCI formula/weight?


It has to do with HCI being removed by water. From: http://www.epa.gov/ozone/science/myths/volcano.html


The vast majority of volcanic eruptions are too weak to reach the stratosphere, around 10 km above the surface. Thus, any HCl emitted in the eruption begins in the troposphere. Sea salt from the oceans is also released very low in the atmosphere. These compounds would have to remain airborne for 2-5 years to be carried to the stratosphere. However, both sea salt and HCl are extremely soluble in water, as opposed to CFCs which do not dissolve in water. Rain effectively scrubs the troposphere, removing both of these forms of chlorine. Steam in volcanic plumes can act the same way, removing HCl long before it reaches the ozone layer.



B - The pressure thing sounds right now. I was running from memory and probably confused CO2 systems with R1234yf systems in some earlier reading. After re-looking I agree with you. But they do state pretty clearly that it won't be a retrofit product, not sure why.

My guess would be the oil. Admittedly I'm too lazy to really look into why retrofitting isn't possible as I just don't see a need for it at this time. :smile:

[NightFlyer]

I'd jump in and have some fun with the political/ideological discussion taking place in the thread, but the last time I did that on this forum, it resulted in my banning from this forum.... :nervous:

[NightFlyer]

While there's plenty of suppliers/retailers/wholesalers already selling R1234yf service port fittings/adapters, I can't find a single source of the actual refrigerant anywhere online.

[NightFlyer]

Has anybody used this stuff called RedTek 12A? Seems like a better option than 134a. It's made in the USA.

30007

12a products are typically composed of some type of propane/butane/methane/ethane blend. And yes, they do work very well. However, thanks to big daddy government, it's not as easy to find as it once was, unfortunately.

Originally, I was going to convert my system to run on a 12a product, however, I instead opted to convert my system to run on R-152a (aka Dust-Off/Ultra-Duster/ any difluroethane based 'compressed air in a can' product). Working great so far :thumbup:

[lindbergh]

While there's plenty of suppliers/retailers/wholesalers already selling R1234yf service port fittings/adapters, I can't find a single source of the actual refrigerant anywhere online.

Honeywell is building a plant in China to produce it.