Uh oh.... look what I found.

[Morpheus]

Well, now that the frame is out in the open I have been able to better examine it. Tonight, I saw something that has me a bit worried...

http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa5/morpheus34711/Daphne%20VIN%204363/Body%20and%20Frame%20Separation/IMG_1729.jpg
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa5/morpheus34711/Daphne%20VIN%204363/Body%20and%20Frame%20Separation/IMG_1730.jpg
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa5/morpheus34711/Daphne%20VIN%204363/Body%20and%20Frame%20Separation/IMG_1731.jpg
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa5/morpheus34711/Daphne%20VIN%204363/Body%20and%20Frame%20Separation/IMG_1732.jpg

It appears that the front end of my frame has been cut off and replaced just south of the front suspension at some point, and the person(s) responsible attempted to cover the weld with some sort of bondo-type covering. I was able to chip some of it away, and as you can see the weld is quite messy; it looks like a 4 year old did it.

You know, there was always something about the frame that didn't look right to me but until now I couldn't quite put my finger on it.

My question to you all is this: Should I be afraid of this? I had planned on stripping, blasting, and powder coating this frame... but now I'm wondering if I should just start looking for a new one (or, at the very least, a frame in better condition).

What say you, my DMC brethren?

[sean]

Looks rough. You need to clean up those weld areas and inspect. Looks like a bunch of rust around the weld.

[sdg3205]

Unless you're concerned with resale, why not get a reputable welder to repair it after it's properly stripped and prepped?

More than anything I think it's just peace of mind for you knowing the front of your car isn't going to fall off.

[Morpheus]

Resale is a concern, but not as much as wondering if the car was involved in some front end collision that somehow didn't show up on the Autocheck.

[content22207]

Looks like the weld was done without shielding gas -- either a stick welder or flux core MIG.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[Nicholas R]

First rule of welding inspection: "if a weld looks bad it is bad, if it looks good, it might be good"

[DMC3165]

Grady has at least one bare frame I know of that might be available. If it was me I'd contact him about picking that up before putting any money into the current one.

[Morpheus]

All I can do right now is finish stripping down this frame, as I'm unemployed at the moment.

I don't even know what a new(er) frame would cost vs. having this one stripped and assessed.

[DMC3165]

I don't want to quote prices for anyone. But I believe a number around 4 or $4500 was tossed around. Not sure if that was as is or blasted and recoated.

[Kenny_Z]

I wouldn't worry about a repaired frame as long as it was repaired correctly but that frame looks awful. Why would someone cover a weld with bondo on a frame unless they wanted to hide something?

I'd clean up and grind down those blobs to see how good the welding was done. Then I'd reinforce it with extra plates if I thought it was a good weld. If not it would be cut back apart, one side at a time, rewelded, and reinforced.

[David T]

As bad as it looks, it can be cleaned up and look nice. The welds may (should) be ground out and rewelded and maybe even add doubler plates over them for added strength. More important than appearance, the frame should be checked for alignment. If it is not straight then it may be worth investigating reframing the car. As you can see you CANNOT depend on any service to accurately depict any particular car's history. I have seen welds that looked like someone dripped grapes all of the seam and I have seen pretty welds with no penetration. Even bad looking welds can be adequate and pretty ones can be weak. Since the front hasn't fallen off yet, as bad as the welding looks, it is holding the frame together! If you do fix up the frame you should also attend to the rusty spots. I would remove all of the bondo and undercoating and try to do a through inspection. A proper repair should not have a big affect on resale unless a prospective buyer insists on buying a car with no previous accident history or major repairs. The front could have been replaced because the crumple zone rotted away. Further inspection of the fiberglass underbody might hint at why the frame was repaired.
David Teitelbaum

[Morpheus]

The body shows absolutely no signs of being repaired, which is why this is such a stumper. I will note, however, that the front end recall is not present. I would suppose that perhaps the original rotted away or was damaged by not installing the recall, then bondo'd and undercoated (this explains why there is undercoating inside the fuel tank area of the frame), and even after all that they STILL didn't put the damn front end recall on it.:angry_whip:

This also explains the helicoil we found on the left front body bolt, the idiots probably stripped it out when removing the body last time. All the pieces are starting to come together now...

I'm still wondering what a freshly blasted/powdercoated frame would cost vs. repairing this one would be.

[Evildeli]

The more I look at it, it reminds me of a pic I took while at DMCH a few years ago. The frames were cut in almost the same spot as yours.

http://johncapozza.com/wp-content/gallery/dmch/framestack1.jpg?1018414930

[Morpheus]

Wow, John... that is odd. I wonder if a DMC vendor can shed some light on if this is a common practice or not?

[DeLorean]

I wouldn't worry about a repaired frame as long as it was repaired correctly but that frame looks awful. Why would someone cover a weld with bondo on a frame unless they wanted to hide something?




It looks like roofing tar to me, this was a typical old timers "fix" when you needed some extra thick undercoat. Trouble is that stuff holds water IN and promotes rust... kind of like the original epoxy they covered the entire frame with :lol:



I'd clean up and grind down those blobs to see how good the welding was done. Then I'd reinforce it with extra plates if I thought it was a good weld. If not it would be cut back apart, one side at a time, re-welded, and reinforced.

Yep, grind those welds down, touch em up and toss in some mending plated on top of those "welds" Seesh, and you thought the car had poor torsional rigidity to begin with?! I bet this thing really drove like a dream like this... :confused0:

[Evildeli]

Wow, John... that is odd. I wonder if a DMC vendor can shed some light on if this is a common practice or not?

James Espey can probably fill you in better, but from what I remember him telling me, those cut frames were left overs from QAC. A certain number of cars sat in port when money troubles first started. When the money freed up the cars were allowed to move on, but a number of them suffered rusting from sitting near the sea air, so some frames were cut and graphed. This might be one of them.

[content22207]

Those blobs are just filler. Grind them off. That's what angle grinders are made for.

It is extremely difficult to pull a pretty puddle with a flux arc, especially on thin gauge metal. If you try to pull it, you generally end up just vaporizing the base metal. A flux arc is *MUCH* hotter than a shielded arc. You have to move the electrode much quicker than you do with gas.

Of course if you are welding DeLorean frames on a windy dock, shielded arc isn't really an option.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[jmrydholm]

Reminds me of the "good welds vs. bad welds" chart with samples hung on the wall when I used to guard a TRW Automotive plant. They had examples of too much current being used, low voltage, splattered welds, too fast and slow speeds, etc. I'm no engineer, but it was pretty interesting.

[content22207]

When you're dealing with flux wire (or sticks), all bets are off. It's a totally different world. Gas welders like to look down their noses at us, but I recently helped a fellow (who teaches industrial arts at the local high school) weld some patches on the deck of his riding mower, and he was a helpless as a babe in the woods. He kept trying to pull a puddle, but just ended up burning holes in the deck. I kept telling him "you're going too slow." With flux core and thin metal, you simply can not tarry.

Flux welding does have one advantage over gas: the metal does not have to be clean. The flux will vaporize everything it touches: paint, rust, grease & grime, etc. All you need is one little clean spot to start the arc.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[DeLorean]

The flux will vaporize everything it touches: paint, rust, grease & grime, etc. All you need is one little clean spot to start the arc.

Bill Robertson
#5939


It smells fantastic when you do that too, a nice thick cloud of carcinogens gets generated :lol: Count on a head ache the next day...

[content22207]

That's what they make wind for.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[Kenny_Z]

I've done both the flux and gas welding before. The flux is so much more difficult in my opinion but I'm glad I learned with it before moving to gas. I won't do flux on anything I want a clean weld on (like my Nova's sheetmetal) but flux is great on things that just need patching like my mower's exhaust.

[Morpheus]

The only type of welding that I have personally ever done is a little Arc welding in shop class back in high school. It's pretty much a given that I will be sending this work out to a competent shop to handle.

So is the consensus that I should look into having it fixed instead of looking for a replacement?

[content22207]

Let's not mince words: flux welds are ugly. But they do work.

I think flux welding is every bit as much an art as gas welding (kind of like those guys who carve statues with chain saws).

Bill Robertson
#5939

[David T]

I don't know why this has degenerated into what type of welding. Obviously it is the quality that is lacking, no matter what type of welding, it needs to be done well. The best type of welding is what the repairman is most experienced with as long as it is compatible with making a good repair. The frame appears to be repairable but before proceeding you need to know the frame is in proper alignment. If it isn't, it would need to be cut and rewelded so everything is in it's proper position. There are many different ways you can weld thin gauge mild steel. From gas welding to TIG, MIG, and variations of each. Worst case you would need to remove the body and some front end components to do a good repair but the frame should be repairable.
David Teitelbaum

[Kenny_Z]

So is the consensus that I should look into having it fixed instead of looking for a replacement?

Going from what David T said, get the frame inspected or inspect it yourself to check for alignment. If the frame is true then I believe it would be better to get it repaired at a trusted welding shop. Make sure you request they add strength plates to the repairs and that frame will be stronger than any replacement frame you could buy.