Angle Drive Gear Reduction Ratio?

[LordFly]

Does anyone happen to know what the gear reduction ratio of the angle drive is? I'm kinda bored and having fun drawing planetary hear systems in SolidWorks. Thought maybe I'd try and draw something moderately useful :) I also want to see how much abuse 3D printed gears can take ;)

[LordFly]

That should say "planetary GEAR systems". Apparently I can't edit the first post :(

[Nicholas R]

I'm pretty sure there is no reduction, just change In direction. At the height of angle drive unavailability, someone plugged their speedo cable directly into the hub of the wheel and it worked ok.

[LordFly]

Oh..... Well so much for making something useful. I suppose I could make a 1:1 planetary gear, but that seems rather pointless.

I guess I could still do an angle drive just to see how plastic holds up. I don't have high expectations, just curious more than anything.

[Nicholas R]

Oh..... Well so much for making something useful. I suppose I could make a 1:1 planetary gear, but that seems rather pointless.

I guess I could still do an angle drive just to see how plastic holds up. I don't have high expectations, just curious more than anything.

Lol, a 1:1 planetary gear set wouldn't have any moving parts within the planetary gear set. You'd either be locking the planets to the sun, the sun to the ring, or the ring to the planets (depending on how your inputs and outs are setup). Planetary gear set transmissions typically work because you have several gear sets stacked, and the ratios compound. To decrease in ratio, you lock the gear sets to be 1:1, one at a time.

[Shep]

I'm fairly certain the OEM ratio is NOT 1:1 -- Hervey units are 1:1 and mamy users (like former DMCTalker Steve) report it being about 12% slower than stock, and having to do the math in their head. I don't recall the exact ratio offhand, but I believe both DMCH and DPI replacements have the OEM ratio built-in. :)

For what it's worth, I'm honestly not sure how durable the plastic gears would be, particularly if you're going for extruded plastic (instead of powdered plastic), which may not hold up to the high speeds and suspension. There's a reason most long-range automotive gears are metal ;) That being said, 3d printed metal gears may actually work here. That is, if you can find a 3D printer suitable for metal! :)

[Nicholas R]

I can't really speak to that then. I was under the impression that the reduction that people saw when deleting the angle drive was due to the binding of the cable within the sleeve and not rotating at a constant rate. Someone will have to take theirs apart and count the teeth to know for sure.

As for printing metal, there are plenty of sites that will print in SS, bronze, even silver and gold. Typically it's laser sintered, however some use powered metal and a binder. I don't think the latter is nearly as strong. I've used imaterialise.com and shapeways.com both with good success. I prefer imaterialise because they have a better method of pricing the parts, but they're also sending the parts from Belgium so delivery is usually 2-3 weeks unless you pay for priority.

[Tomcio]

Since I have my angle drive apart I thought I could help you out a bit...

The gearing is definitely NOT 1:1. The input gear coming from the wheel has 18 teeth and the output connected to the cable has 16. This makes a ratio of 1:1.125 exactly. This means that the output shaft and cable turns faster than the input shaft. For one complete revolution of the wheel the cable will turn 1.125 times. Or for 1000 revolutions of the wheel the cable will turn 1125 times.
If you'd like to count the teeth yourself here are pictures of both gears:
Input:
30928

Output:
30929

And here's a picture of both. Notice the wear on the teeth. Oh, BTW, to all those who still believe that the gears are made of plastic - they are made of metal but this setup is made to destroy itself. The forces are huge and whoever designed this setup with the angle drive and two cables with two counters was a complete idiot.
30927

[chris williams]

I'm fairly certain the OEM ratio is NOT 1:1 -- Hervey units are 1:1 and mamy users (like former DMCTalker Steve) report it being about 12% slower than stock, and having to do the math in their head. I don't recall the exact ratio offhand, but I believe both DMCH and DPI replacements have the OEM ratio built-in.

Correct, just done a 400 mile round trip in mine and it does read slow 55mph reading is about 60mph in reality, I found on average about 10% slow across the range.
Chris

[Tomcio]

Correct, just done a 400 mile round trip in mine and it does read slow 55mph reading is about 60mph in reality, I found on average about 10% slow across the range.
Chris

According to the calculation the speedometer and the odometer is 12.5% slower when connected directly to the wheel.

[Nicholas R]

Thanks for this info!!:thumbup: Definitely all makes sense now (all except why the Hervey ones are 1:1).

I suppose that since the rate of rotation is liner compared to the position of the needle about the center of the gauge, if you bought a Hervey one, you could simply remove your needle and reposition it the amount that it is off.

[Bitsyncmaster]

Thanks for this info!!:thumbup: Definitely all makes sense now (all except why the Hervey ones are 1:1).

I suppose that since the rate of rotation is liner compared to the position of the needle about the center of the gauge, if you bought a Hervey one, you could simply remove your needle and reposition it the amount that it is off.

That may work for MPH but your mileage counter would stay off 12.5%.

[Nicholas R]

That may work for MPH but your mileage counter would stay off 12.5%.

That is indeed a very good point; I had not thought of that.

[Shep]

To be honest, I'm kind of surprised no one's gone after Hervey legally for using the wrong ratio. There's quite a few D's out there whose mileage is seriously understated. 12.5% may not seem like much, but on a 200,000 mile car, that's 225,000 miles -- quite different considering the number of high-mileage DeLoreans out there! :) Some of us have managed to keep accurate mileage on our titles, and that kind of difference not being disclosed leaves a seller vulnerable to legal recourse from the buyer. It's essentially a form of active odometer rollback, which is not good all things considered. Food for thought I suppose. :)

[Mark D]

Man that's surprising and kinda not surprising at the same time that Hervey's angle drives have been wrong all these years.

[LordFly]

And here's a picture of both. Notice the wear on the teeth. Oh, BTW, to all those who still believe that the gears are made of plastic - they are made of metal but this setup is made to destroy itself. The forces are huge and whoever designed this setup with the angle drive and two cables with two counters was a complete idiot.
30927

Awesome, thanks! Well, I'm no certified engineer or anything, but why wouldn't they have used a bevel gear? The forces on a helical setup like that look like they'd be really bad!


I suppose that since the rate of rotation is liner compared to the position of the needle about the center of the gauge, if you bought a Hervey one, you could simply remove your needle and reposition it the amount that it is off.

No, that won't work, it's a ratio. If it's off 12.5%, at 100mph it's off by 12.5mph, but at 10mph, it's off by 1.25mph. Moving the needle won't work. Unless of course you only ever drive one speed.....

[DMCVegas]

To be honest, I'm kind of surprised no one's gone after Hervey legally for using the wrong ratio.

What could you possibly get him on? Most cars are exempt from milage once they hit 10 years anyhow, and if wrong ratios opened a person up for a lawsuit, I'm sure that tire shops would only sell OEM sizes or combinations thereof.

Even if you had a car that actually made it 100,000 miles and you got shorted on the milage, how would you prove a loss on the depreciation? Just something to think about.

[Shep]

What could you possibly get him on? Most cars are exempt from milage once they hit 10 years anyhow, and if wrong ratios opened a person up for a lawsuit, I'm sure that tire shops would only sell OEM sizes or combinations thereof.

Even if you had a car that actually made it 100,000 miles and you got shorted on the milage, how would you prove a loss on the depreciation? Just something to think about.

True, hadn't considered that aspect of it. :)

[LordFly]

For what it's worth, I'm honestly not sure how durable the plastic gears would be, particularly if you're going for extruded plastic

Oh I totally don't expect them to hold up. But then again, my angle drive lasted 9km the last time I hooked it up. Mostly I'm just curious if I can make something that fits and kinda works. A way to test my skills in SolidWorks :)

[Tomcio]

Awesome, thanks! Well, I'm no certified engineer or anything, but why wouldn't they have used a bevel gear? The forces on a helical setup like that look like they'd be really bad!
Even if you're not an engineer your thinking is much better than that of the engineer who designed this setup. Bevel gears would be a much better choice in this case as the forces are now just huge. Bevel gears with angled teeth would be quiet and would last the life of the car. No wonder those angle drives keep failing.


What could you possibly get him on? Most cars are exempt from milage once they hit 10 years anyhow, and if wrong ratios opened a person up for a lawsuit, I'm sure that tire shops would only sell OEM sizes or combinations thereof..
Well, I can think of one possibility here and that is speed. If the speed limit is say 75 MPH and your needle is exactly at 75 then your actual speed would be 75 + 12.5% = 84.375 MPH and that could get you a nice ticket. I would definitely like the person responsible for my ticket to pay up.

When it comes to tires there is a limit of how far they can go with different sizes before they have to tell you that your speedometer will be off. The new tire size should be within + or - 3% of the original size. In case of the angle drive we're talking about 12.5% difference and the customer apparently isn't informed about this.


Oh I totally don't expect them to hold up. But then again, my angle drive lasted 9km the last time I hooked it up. Mostly I'm just curious if I can make something that fits and kinda works. A way to test my skills in SolidWorks :)

I don't think plastic gears from a 3D printer would last more than 9 turns let alone kilometers. The forces are really great in this setup even without the cables and two counters. Try building one using bevel gears with the same ratio and they might last for a few kms. Or better yet go back to your original idea of a complex transmission that provides the same ratio. That might actually work... if you use a planetary gear set the forces would be divided among all those teeth working together. That's a cool idea :thumbup:

[LordFly]

Or better yet go back to your original idea of a complex transmission that provides the same ratio. That might actually work... if you use a planetary gear set the forces would be divided among all those teeth working together. That's a cool idea :thumbup:

That actually was my original thinking, spreading the load across extra teeth. It's going to be overly complex to be such a low ratio. Do-able, but complex. The only problem is that it won't have a 90° turn...

[Nicholas R]

Even if you're not an engineer your thinking is much better than that of the engineer who designed this setup. Bevel gears would be a much better choice in this case as the forces are now just huge. Bevel gears with angled teeth would be quiet and would last the life of the car. No wonder those angle drives keep failing.

I don't think plastic gears from a 3D printer would last more than 9 turns let alone kilometers. The forces are really great in this setup even without the cables and two counters. Try building one using bevel gears with the same ratio and they might last for a few kms. Or better yet go back to your original idea of a complex transmission that provides the same ratio. That might actually work... if you use a planetary gear set the forces would be divided among all those teeth working together. That's a cool idea :thumbup:

Helical gear teeth distribute the load better across a larger tooth (even multiple teeth depending on the cut) than straight cut or bevel gears. In addition straight and bevel gears have very high transverse loads because the gears are always trying to push each other apart. Helical gears instead have much more axial loading, which is much easier to manage, and won't cause the teeth to strip anywhere near as easily. They also operate much quieter because the teeth are sliding. These are the same reasons why every car differential uses curved hypoid gears, not beveled gears (differentials also have other reasons for using hypoid gears too but these are some of them).

EDIT: I'm not saying that a planetary or bevel gear design wouldn't work, I'm just saying that these were most likely the things the engineer that designed this was thinking about. Plus, for production, rolling gears like this would be very cost effective. Also I've never heard of the teeth of an angle drive being the part that fails. I've always seen it being the rod that goes to the wheel hub.

[LordFly]

A planetary gear system can have helical gears as well https://d2t1xqejof9utc.cloudfront.net/screenshots/pics/e8bc2705dabb10698abe6f41e63a99cb/medium.png And so could a bevel system, although at that point you basically have a hypoid anyways. I didn't want to get to technical on the types of gears when I was just looking for the ratio ;) The original design could have been better if they'd tapered the center of the output gear, instead of basically just making a worm gear. It's not spreading the load well at all, which is why it's wearing so bad right in the middle. I might try a few things :)

[Shep]

You know what LordFly? Go for it. :) Seriously, take your 3D printer and make some gear systems. When you think about it, plastic has such a low durability in automotive use, it'll let you see right away what systems would last and what systems wouldn't based on simple testing with a drill or some such. Plastic is so inexpensive nowadays, you can easily make every single gear system known to man that would be even halfway suitable and try them all out. Multiple times even. Based on how they wear, break, and how long they last, I'm sure you'll gather a huge, HUGE amount of useful information that may even lead you to design a gear type that would be even better suited for the task ;)

I for one am rooting for you, and sincerely hope that this will lead to better things. Who knows, maybe you'll discover a system that'll work better than what anyone else has tried so far! Obviously the end result would be metal, but this is the true heart of "Rapid Prototyping" at its finest -- try out a bunch of prototypes and see what works best. Looks like 3D printing has finally come full-circle in the DeLorean world, in a very good way! Best of luck to you, and keep us posted on the results! :thumbup:

[chris williams]

According to the calculation the speedometer and the odometer is 12.5% slower when connected directly to the wheel.
probably correct I was looking at the speedo and GPS at the same time so would vary a little, either way it reads slow so people need to watch out for this with all the speed traps/cameras around.
Chris

[LordFly]

You know what LordFly? Go for it. :) Seriously, take your 3D printer and make some gear systems. When you think about it, plastic has such a low durability in automotive use, it'll let you see right away what systems would last and what systems wouldn't based on simple testing with a drill or some such. Plastic is so inexpensive nowadays, you can easily make every single gear system known to man that would be even halfway suitable and try them all out. Multiple times even. Based on how they wear, break, and how long they last, I'm sure you'll gather a huge, HUGE amount of useful information that may even lead you to design a gear type that would be even better suited for the task ;)

I for one am rooting for you, and sincerely hope that this will lead to better things. Who knows, maybe you'll discover a system that'll work better than what anyone else has tried so far! Obviously the end result would be metal, but this is the true heart of "Rapid Prototyping" at its finest -- try out a bunch of prototypes and see what works best. Looks like 3D printing has finally come full-circle in the DeLorean world, in a very good way! Best of luck to you, and keep us posted on the results! :thumbup:

Yup, absolutely right. The plastic is next to worthless. I'm in no way worried about wasting it. And should something work really well, I can always have shapeways.com print it in metal (they even have stainless ;)). The biggest problem right now is that when you get right down to it, the math behind drawing a proper involute gear is pretty damn complicated! And SolidWorks doesn't seem to have an internal helical gear for my planetary setup in their drag and drop menu. Also, they seem to cheat a little on their drag and drop gears. I don't think their involutes are quite right, because they don't seem to mesh like they should. And I'm kinda picky about stuff like that.

[Nicholas R]

A planetary gear system can have helical gears as well https://d2t1xqejof9utc.cloudfront.net/screenshots/pics/e8bc2705dabb10698abe6f41e63a99cb/medium.png And so could a bevel system, although at that point you basically have a hypoid anyways. I didn't want to get to technical on the types of gears when I was just looking for the ratio ;) The original design could have been better if they'd tapered the center of the output gear, instead of basically just making a worm gear. It's not spreading the load well at all, which is why it's wearing so bad right in the middle. I might try a few things :)

Helical gears allow you to distribute the load over a larger tooth face; even multiple teeth depending on the specs. You wouldn't end up with hypoid gears; (properly machined) helical gears are still involute gears.

I still disagree with trading axial loads for transverse loads because that's how you strip gear teeth. I believe the wear you see now would be small compared to what you'd see after the equivalent number of miles with straight cut beveled gears. We can just agree to disagree. I certainly don't want this to stop you from experimenting. I'd love to see what you come up with :thumbup:

[Nicholas R]

By the way, given the size if your parts and teeth, is the printing resolution going to be fine enough for you to need to detail your tooth profiles to a true involute?

[Shep]

SolidWorks doesn't seem to have an internal helical gear for my planetary setup in their drag and drop menu.Have you thought about using a different program for the gear part of it? Think of it as using a claw hammer as a bottle opener. It'll work if you do it right, but it's not really meant for that. Different tools for different jobs, although an attachment for the claw might work better.

Tried a Google search for "3d gear generator", and came across a few links of interest:
http://woodgears.ca/gear/index.html
http://discourse.mcneel.com/t/a-new-involute-gear-generator/4923
http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:8077

That last one uses SolidWorks, hence the "attachment" metaphor. Maybe it'll work after all ;)

[LordFly]

By the way, given the size if your parts and teeth, is the printing resolution going to be fine enough for you to need to detail your tooth profiles to a true involute?

Hard to say. X and Y resolution is approximately 0.015mm, but Z can only reliably go down to about 0.1mm, so tiny helical gears may have minor issues, but they should be pretty good. I was thinking of scaling up to see how it works out first.

I printed some gears for a motorized projector screen I built about 6 months ago. It's got a fair bit of load on it and last time I looked it showed no signs of wear. But they were moderately large teeth.

Ultimately I won't know until I try it. I might try first just with some basic straight gears, or bevels or something, just to start somewhere and see how much room I have to play with.

[LordFly]

Have you thought about using a different program for the gear part of it? Think of it as using a claw hammer as a bottle opener. It'll work if you do it right, but it's not really meant for that. Different tools for different jobs, although an attachment for the claw might work better.

Tried a Google search for "3d gear generator", and came across a few links of interest:
http://woodgears.ca/gear/index.html
http://discourse.mcneel.com/t/a-new-involute-gear-generator/4923
http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:8077

That last one uses SolidWorks, hence the "attachment" metaphor. Maybe it'll work after all ;)

That's not a bad idea. I might give some of those a go tonight. Or look up some other ones maybe. Gears are impressive pieces of mathematics, so I wouldn't be totally surprised to find out there is a piece of software specifically for gear design.

[LordFly]

Does anyone know how accurate the stock speedometer is? I'm just wondering if it would be worth while to tweak the ratio a little. I'm guessing it must be almost bang on if the 1:1 reads about 12% to high. Just a thought, while I'm playing with things.

[Bitsyncmaster]

Does anyone know how accurate the stock speedometer is? I'm just wondering if it would be worth while to tweak the ratio a little. I'm guessing it must be almost bang on if the 1:1 reads about 12% to high. Just a thought, while I'm playing with things.

Mine shows about 2 MPH lower than what my GPS shows at highway speeds.

[PJ Grady Inc.]

This is an older post but I like the pictures because they clearly show the wear on the gearset that causes most angle drive failures. When the wear is great enough the gears temporarily bind together causing the flexible cable in the axle to break.

Years age I made a few hundred sets of hardened gears and rebuilt a slew of angle drives selling them as one of my "hardcore rebuilt" series of parts. They sold fairly well and proved to be far more durable than stock units. I've recently received some requests to make these gears again but I'm wondering if there is sufficient need and demand to justify the expense.

For the last few years I've seen fewer failures with the DMCH unit than when they first came out and I assumed they made some changes to increase the durability. I don't know this for sure so I'm asking everyone who has bought one of their more recent units (say in the last 4 or 5 years or so) to chime in about their experience with it.

I'd like to get some consensus from people if there is still a need for a better angle drive or not and whether a better (also read more expensive!) unit would be well recieved by the Delorean community and if there is still a need for it. Any and all opinions would be welcomed.

Rob Grady
P.J.Grady Inc.





Since I have my angle drive apart I thought I could help you out a bit...

The gearing is definitely NOT 1:1. The input gear coming from the wheel has 18 teeth and the output connected to the cable has 16. This makes a ratio of 1:1.125 exactly. This means that the output shaft and cable turns faster than the input shaft. For one complete revolution of the wheel the cable will turn 1.125 times. Or for 1000 revolutions of the wheel the cable will turn 1125 times.
If you'd like to count the teeth yourself here are pictures of both gears:
Input:
30928

Output:
30929

And here's a picture of both. Notice the wear on the teeth. Oh, BTW, to all those who still believe that the gears are made of plastic - they are made of metal but this setup is made to destroy itself. The forces are huge and whoever designed this setup with the angle drive and two cables with two counters was a complete idiot.
30927

[Jonathan]

This is an older post but I like the pictures because they clearly show the wear on the gearset that causes most angle drive failures. When the wear is great enough the gears temporarily bind together causing the flexible cable in the axle to break.

Years age I made a few hundred sets of hardened gears and rebuilt a slew of angle drives selling them as one of my "hardcore rebuilt" series of parts. They sold fairly well and proved to be far more durable than stock units. I've recently received some requests to make these gears again but I'm wondering if there is sufficient need and demand to justify the expense.

For the last few years I've seen fewer failures with the DMCH unit than when they first came out and I assumed they made some changes to increase the durability. I don't know this for sure so I'm asking everyone who has bought one of their more recent units (say in the last 4 or 5 years or so) to chime in about their experience with it.

I'd like to get some consensus from people if there is still a need for a better angle drive or not and whether a better (also read more expensive!) unit would be well recieved by the Delorean community and if there is still a need for it. Any and all opinions would be welcomed.

Rob Grady
P.J.Grady Inc.

Hi Rob,

I have had my car (3937) since 2007. The speedo did not work when I bought it. I have replaced the following components since then: angle drive (x2), lower speedo cable (x2), dust cap (x3), 32 mm nut on the back (x2) (mostly because of not having the finger dexterity to get that snap ring off the old angle drive) and I've bought replacement lower cable clips as well as the extended bracket for the cable that links in with the brake line. I've also taken apart, greased and fumbled with the inards of the lambda counter to no avail.

My speedo still does not work.

This past season I never even considered playing with it as I gave up and use my GPS or engine RPM for speed and gas receipts/fuel gauge for mileage. Previous attempts to get it working have lasted almost to the end of my street. Sometimes as long as three or four hundred metres.

I would love to get it working again as I'll be honest, it pisses me off to no end that it doesn't work worth a crap.

I would be very interested in a product that would make my unit work whether that is a hardened set of angle drive gears or some other improvement on the chain of parts that all need to be working properly to see your speedo and odo function.

Let me know what ya got.

[PJ Grady Inc.]

Hi Rob,

I have had my car (3937) since 2007. The speedo did not work when I bought it. I have replaced the following components since then: angle drive (x2), lower speedo cable (x2), dust cap (x3), 32 mm nut on the back (x2) (mostly because of not having the finger dexterity to get that snap ring off the old angle drive) and I've bought replacement lower cable clips as well as the extended bracket for the cable that links in with the brake line. I've also taken apart, greased and fumbled with the inards of the lambda counter to no avail.

My speedo still does not work.

This past season I never even considered playing with it as I gave up and use my GPS or engine RPM for speed and gas receipts/fuel gauge for mileage. Previous attempts to get it working have lasted almost to the end of my street. Sometimes as long as three or four hundred metres.

I would love to get it working again as I'll be honest, it pisses me off to no end that it doesn't work worth a crap.

I would be very interested in a product that would make my unit work whether that is a hardened set of angle drive gears or some other improvement on the chain of parts that all need to be working properly to see your speedo and odo function.

Let me know what ya got.

Hi Jonathan,
Could you say when you bought each angle drive, from whom, and how many miles each one lasted? I don't currently have any more hardened gears but am trying to figure if a better unit is required than is currently available. In the meantime I am rather proficient at rebuilding them and could likely tweak your existing unit to last longer if you're interested. But first you must answer my questions ;)
Rob Grady

[Jonathan]

Hi Jonathan,
Could you say when you bought each angle drive, from whom, and how many miles each one lasted? I don't currently have any more hardened gears but am trying to figure if a better unit is required than is currently available. In the meantime I am rather proficient at rebuilding them and could likely tweak your existing unit to last longer if you're interested. But first you must answer my questions ;)
Rob Grady

No problem. Let me check for specifics on dates and mileage and get back to you. Everything is from DMCX, ultimately through the Houston inventory. I believe one of the angle drives was "improved" in some way, but I'm not sure about that as I don't know specifically what may or may not have changed with it's design.

Another round of the current replacements might work, hard to say. I have questioned whether one or more of my lower cables was too long and then interfered with the gears turning freely. With the number of different ideas of how it can fail or parts to replace, I don't doubt that it was doomed to fail trying to fix it this way as one of the components kept in the chain while others were changed out may have led to new components failing and then you really don't know which end is up.

Add to that the inconsistent advice we all give each other on lubrication, how tight to get the cable connections, alignment techniques for those cables hanging off the back of the rotor, some manufacturing inconsistencies and it's like trying to solve a Rubix Cube with your eyes closed. You'd think with how nice the fuel pump and sender combo came out, the community would dream up a better, more inclusive solution to the speedo design.

My next approach may be to swap out the entire system from A to B, or at least all the way up to the bottom side of the lambda counter just to rule out sketchy components. I had heard Houston was designing a better replacement and to wait for that, but I don't know really what I am waiting for.

My car showed about 16,900 miles when I got it and now shows about 19,900. That's 3,000 miles on the odo when my best guess fuel mileage based miles driven would be closer to 8,000 since 2007. I have gotten used to running without it, but like I said, that's a crappy way to do things just because you don't know how to fix something. I'm the sort to try to do things by the book and having an odo that doesn't even come close to approximating how far the car has actually driven bothers me for resale or plate stickers or whatever. I think future prospective buyers that are educated on the car know to judge condition more than odo reading, but that still is baloney in my view when you think of just about any other car you would look at it to consider buying, if you saw a dead odo and speedo, it's a red flag at the very least and probably a deal breaker.

(If you haven't noticed, this is probably the number one irritation I have with these cars. I can deal with poor idles and hitting your head on the door, but the dead speedo to me is a real pisser).

[Tomcio]

Rob,

If you make new gears I'll take 5 sets right now. The pictures are from my car 6149. The interesting thing is that this angle drive still worked! It was fine until I took the gears out and noticed just how badly worn they are. It's too worn to just put it back together. I would prefer to get just the gears I have the means to do the rebuild myself. I will also need one lower cable and that bracket with a coat hanger looking cable guide.

Thanks.

[PJ Grady Inc.]

No problem. Let me check for specifics on dates and mileage and get back to you. Everything is from DMCX, ultimately through the Houston inventory. I believe one of the angle drives was "improved" in some way, but I'm not sure about that as I don't know specifically what may or may not have changed with it's design.

Another round of the current replacements might work, hard to say. I have questioned whether one or more of my lower cables was too long and then interfered with the gears turning freely. With the number of different ideas of how it can fail or parts to replace, I don't doubt that it was doomed to fail trying to fix it this way as one of the components kept in the chain while others were changed out may have led to new components failing and then you really don't know which end is up.

Add to that the inconsistent advice we all give each other on lubrication, how tight to get the cable connections, alignment techniques for those cables hanging off the back of the rotor, some manufacturing inconsistencies and it's like trying to solve a Rubix Cube with your eyes closed. You'd think with how nice the fuel pump and sender combo came out, the community would dream up a better, more inclusive solution to the speedo design.

My next approach may be to swap out the entire system from A to B, or at least all the way up to the bottom side of the lambda counter just to rule out sketchy components. I had heard Houston was designing a better replacement and to wait for that, but I don't know really what I am waiting for.

My car showed about 16,900 miles when I got it and now shows about 19,900. That's 3,000 miles on the odo when my best guess fuel mileage based miles driven would be closer to 8,000 since 2007. I have gotten used to running without it, but like I said, that's a crappy way to do things just because you don't know how to fix something. I'm the sort to try to do things by the book and having an odo that doesn't even come close to approximating how far the car has actually driven bothers me for resale or plate stickers or whatever. I think future prospective buyers that are educated on the car know to judge condition more than odo reading, but that still is baloney in my view when you think of just about any other car you would look at it to consider buying, if you saw a dead odo and speedo, it's a red flag at the very least and probably a deal breaker.

(If you haven't noticed, this is probably the number one irritation I have with these cars. I can deal with poor idles and hitting your head on the door, but the dead speedo to me is a real pisser).

Wow I think I hit a nerve! Ok so it seems you've gone through two angle drives to travel 3000 of your total guesstimated mileage of 8000? That is not very good indeed. I'd be miffed too. I'd suggest a proper rebuild, an original speedo adapter cup, and a one piece cable assembly (thus eliminating the extra drag of the lambda couunter). I'm confident your angle drive blues (as I said in an old ad) will be over with those parts in place. Anyone else interested in better gears? (Besides 5 set Tom:)
Rob Grady

[PJ Grady Inc.]

Rob,

If you make new gears I'll take 5 sets right now. The pictures are from my car 6149. The interesting thing is that this angle drive still worked! It was fine until I took the gears out and noticed just how badly worn they are. It's too worn to just put it back together. I would prefer to get just the gears I have the means to do the rebuild myself. I will also need one lower cable and that bracket with a coat hanger looking cable guide.

Thanks.

Tom,
If I get enough responses like yours I think I'll run, not walk, down to my favorite machine shop and get crackin on it!
Rob Grady

[Shep]

Tom,
If I get enough responses like yours I think I'll run, not walk, down to my favorite machine shop and get crackin on it!
Rob GradyI've got an OEM one still in mine. DPI Josh has told me it's better than the current offerings (of course, this was quite a while ago, so it may not still apply!), but count me in on one of your angle drives for sure :thumbup: I believe the Hervey ones have a very low failure ratio, but come with one glaring flaw that I mentioned earlier in this thread -- it's the wrong ratio! So obviously making an angle drive that isn't so failure-prone is more than doable, but no one has yet combined this with the correct ratio to result in an accurate speed (and, for that matter, mileage!)

[Patrick C]

I'm still running a Grady "Hardcore" unit that I installed 10 years ago. I've never lubricated it over the course of 50,000 miles and its still going strong!

[Tomcio]

On closer inspection it turns out that my angle drive housing has a crack and I need to replace the whole unit. Gears alone won't do any good in my case.

[SS Spoiler]

150,000 miles on original angle drive.......

[Tomcio]

Lucky! ;)

[Jonathan]

150,000 miles on original angle drive.......

May I ask you which type of lower speedo cable bracket you have on your car?

This one:

http://store.delorean.com/p-7327-pipe-and-cable-brkt.aspx

Or this one:

http://store.delorean.com/p-7328-pipe-and-cable-brkt.aspx

Or some other combination of clips or zip ties?

[SS Spoiler]

Funny you ask, I went out and looked and discovered I have neither one. It is just wire tied to hold it in place.
Did the early cars brackets have problems?

[Jonathan]

Funny you ask, I went out and looked and discovered I have neither one. It is just wire tied to hold it in place.
Did the early cars brackets have problems?

Ok, interesting. I didn't expect you to say that.

I'm not 100% sure what made them change bracket designs honestly. The one with the extended coat hanger looking arm on it might have been harder or more expensive to make maybe? Or they snapped off?

I just was thinking there has to be some sort of aspect that's more consistent to whether they fail early and often or last for 150,000 miles like yours did, than purely based on getting lucky. I thought maybe it was one type of bracket versus another, but yours being wire tied in place doesn't help that theory!

Is there anything else about your angle drive history or the car's history that stands out to you? Any lubrication being done regularly on it (or not done regularly)? What state(s), climate, environment has your car been in for it's lifetime? Anywhere with salt on the roads and driven in the winter?

I've seen ABS sensors go on newer cars from winter road grime, salt and dirt getting in and messing up the connections. Maybe it's something along those lines with the angle drive gears or cables? They seem very particular to being well aligned and free from any form of resistance or foreign matter so road grime getting inside might be something to consider?

Not the easiest thing to get good data points on, but yours at 150,000 miles could be at the extreme end of our scale if I had to guess. Could be one to learn from at the very least.

[SS Spoiler]

Ok, mine was a downtown Minnesota car. Original owner lived 3 blocks from the bridge that fell. I had to replace the frame six
months after I bought it [1988] Drive was wire tied when I got it. I'm guessing it's been lubed a dozen times, 30 weight oil or
a squirt of chassis grease. Still have original speedometer cables, never lubed, lambda counter, never greased. Plastic drive cup
repaired with a piece of square brass tubing. Oh, first owner drove it year round, I parked it every winter. I've probably stirred
up the sleeping gremlins, "hey we missed one!", watch my speedometer quit.......


Paul Cerny #2691
Kalispell, MT

[Jonathan]

Wow, ok, that's a lot of variables. Nothing jumps out as obvious to me. I haven't heard of the square brass tubing fix for the dust cap. Is that somehow in place in the centre of the plastic cap because the hole got rounded?

How about your trip meter? Does it work? Reset shaft been snapped and replaced before?

Maybe there's something getting over torqued or tightened like when working on the brakes or front bearings or similar that reduces the ability for things to rotate? Or maybe car's that had such work done got them loosened more to allow it to rotate more freely?

Yea, I hope we didn't jinx the "no hitter" either. Knock on your parcel shelf wood the next time you get the chance.

[PJ Grady Inc.]

150,000 miles on original angle drive.......

That is pretty amazing. Did you happen to lub them with kryptonite?
Rob Grady

[LordFly]

Ok, interesting.I'm not 100% sure what made them change bracket designs honestly. The one with the extended coat hanger looking arm on it might have been harder or more expensive to make maybe? Or they snapped off?

Mine snapped off while I was changing springs recently. Planning to weld a new coat hanger on later.


How about your trip meter? Does it work? Reset shaft been snapped and replaced before?

Don't know if there's any relation there, but mine hasn't worked since I got the car 2 years ago, and the trip meter reset was snapped off when I got it. Have the replacement parts, just haven't bother to install them yet. Doesn't seem worth it considering there is nothing to reset at this point.

[Jonathan]

Don't know if there's any relation there, but mine hasn't worked since I got the car 2 years ago, and the trip meter reset was snapped off when I got it. Have the replacement parts, just haven't bother to install them yet. Doesn't seem worth it considering there is nothing to reset at this point.

Agreed on not knowing if there's any relation there. I mention it only because there might be.

Not directly of course, not like a broken trip reset shaft in and of itself will jam your angle drive, but I heard of people having tiny bits of the plastic that broke off getting jammed in the speedo or odo and causing problems.

Personally, my trip reset shaft was broken since the day I got the car (or before that technically). I bought the replacement parts years ago and like you, never got to installing them, partly because of not having anything to reset like you said, but also having never been into the binnacle and dreading it being difficult. After getting in there for some light bulbs, I realized it was not hard and put the shaft back together with some good DMCH instructions.

It might still be a luck of the draw with all of this or some completely untrackable consistency that will forever hide itself. Interesting though if some theme emerges form any of this.

Ironically, I got fumbling around in my boxes of old parts in the garage taking inventory of what the crap was and what could be reused or sold. I stumble upon a used lower speedo cable as well as an angle drive that hadn't been butchered trying to get the nut off, and when I connected the two, they seemed to spin ok. I put these two in the footwell and connected to the lower side of the lambda counter and I'll be damned if it didn't appear to be working!

I'll give credit to that exploda image someone posted of the two gear pieces inside the angle drive as it gave me a better visual for when I was playing with my own. It seems mine is very sensitive to the lower cable protruding too far WITHIN the cable sheath. If I assemble it without it working itself too far in the direction of the lambda counter, it seems to rotate ok. We'll see when I get it all installed and tightened actually in the front wheel. That's waiting until the Spring though so I can do a test drive on dry ground after putting the hub nuts back on.

[SS Spoiler]

My car had 29,000 on it when i Bought it. It's possible first owner replaced it.
Broke trip odometer cleaning dash. I keep the broken stub on the dash to reset
odometer every time I gas up.