Are these cars ever going to be worth anything???

[John U]

I have been watching the market for 80s cars for quite some time and I have noticed a definite (and sometimes crazy!) price increase in certain types. The porsche 911, 930 and countach have skyrocketed in value followed by cars like the ferrari 308 and 328.
Deloreans however seem to be pretty stable. Is it the density of these cars to remain an underappreciated classic? They sure draw crowds at car shows and there is a very interesting history both on the silver screen and in real life, but I wonder if the pathetic lack of power and the popular view that the car is prone to mechanical problems will keep the value low while other cars appreciate.
Feel free to discuss....

John

[vps3922]

I have been watching the market for 80s cars for quite some time and I have noticed a definite (and sometimes crazy!) price increase in certain types. The porsche 911, 930 and countach have skyrocketed in value followed by cars like the ferrari 308 and 328.
Deloreans however seem to be pretty stable. Is it the density of these cars to remain an underappreciated classic? They sure draw crowds at car shows and there is a very interesting history both on the silver screen and in real life, but I wonder if the pathetic lack of power and the popular view that the car is prone to mechanical problems will keep the value low while other cars appreciate.
Feel free to discuss....

John

Good question, John. There is either a movement that owners are discrediting the buzz this car makes on every road and seem to settle for less; or that there are still enough "projects" out there that go for less and people are not wiling to spend that much because they can get a "cheaper one" somewhere else.

It is either a sellers or buyers driven market. I think we have a mixture of both: the sellers do not increase the prices and there are not that many buyers out there that would pay a higher price. Or is it a perception of current sellers and there are more buyers out there willing to spend more?

I think that we should all just think of a price we would sell it for, if we ever consider that, and then add $10k. Or even more.
Underpowered or not. We should not compare it to the power of other sportscars or sportscars of that era. It is a classic. Yes, an underpowered classic, but still a classic.

I think that prices should increase. 4500-6500 still on the road (this number seems to fluctuate) is not that many as compared to other cars of that age.

My opinion is that the DeLorean owners should value the incredible classic and eye catching car they have and slowly start to increase the selling prices.

I have to admit, though, that I can say that now that I scored my DeLorean and fulfilled my dream. I feel a bit bad saying this now when I think of all the people that wish to get one of these cars one day and would then have to rake up more money.

What I am also wondering is why these prices do not even increase by the standard inflation. The car was sold for $25k at the time and it is now selling for $25k on average. What is wrong? $25k 1981 are not the same in 2014 anymore. It should be significantly higher.

Volker

[chrome sentinel]

I don't own a Delorean yet, but hope to soon. I have often wondered if these cars will ever start bringing big money. However, I am actually glad the cars are affordable. I know that some people have probably horded these cars waiting for the price to go up, and are probably wondering why it has not happened yet. I just think its cool that my favorite car is not that expensive, all things considered.

I guess most people don't want a car that was built with drug money, (:smashfreak::tongue::tongue::giddy::angry0:)

What does everyone else think ?

[? ? ? ?]

I think part of it has to do with the fact that the DeLorean is an "orphaned" car, and therefore no "official" company still exists to support these cars, which can scare some buyers off.

Porsche and Ferrari still exist, so a buyer of one of those still has a parent company with dealerships to take the car to if they need to. Yes there are venders out there, but most of the general public does not know about them, and if you don't happen to live near a vender, it can be troublesome at times to send your car off to one if need be.

[Denverdelorean]

I think part of it has to do with the fact that the DeLorean is an "orphaned" car, and therefore no "official" company still exists to support these cars, which can scare some buyers off.

Porsche and Ferrari still exist, so a buyer of one of those still has a parent company with dealerships to take the car to if they need to. Yes there are venders out there, but most of the general public does not know about them, and if you don't happen to live near a vender, it can be troublesome at times to send your car off to one if need be.

while this may be true. it is a HUGE misconception. I have a 49 ford hotrod, and the ford dealership looks at it like a flying saucer. they have no expertise or interest in servicing it.

[David T]

Prices are moving up, but slowly. That is for the cars in good shape. For the ones that need a lot their value will decline as the cost of fixing them goes up as the price of parts and labor increases. IMHO one reason the value of Deloreans is low is because even though it is an "Orphan" marque and there was limited production, they made a LOT of them compared to the quantities of other orphan cars. Other reasons are it just isn't as fast as it looks and has an undeserved reputation for a lot of problems. The good side of the problem is you can get one cheap! Just don't buy it thinking you can fix it up and make a lot of money!

[Rich]

I have been watching the market for 80s cars for quite some time and I have noticed a definite (and sometimes crazy!) price increase in certain types. The porsche 911, 930 and countach have skyrocketed in value followed by cars like the ferrari 308 and 328.

Let's check the facts on this.

The NADA Online Guide shows '81 308 GTBi's now sell at average retail for $33,700 and are indeed going up. And, yes, certain collectible, exotic and rare cars are getting good auction prices.

The same NADA guide shows '81 911SC's going at just over $25K and '81 DMC-12's at $29K. http://www.nadaguides.com/Classic-Cars/Manufacturers

Since a 911 sold for more than a DeLorean back then and since a Ferrari stickered at nearly twice the price of a D. the question isn't why other cars are doing better than D's in resale the question is why DeLoreans have held their value so much better than other cars of that same era in the same market niche.

This thread has 2012 and 2013 value-retention data for DeLoreans and 7 competing sports cars offered at the time:
LINK: http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?3444 (http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?3444)

Even with the most recent values Ferrari hasn't nearly caught up to a D in terms of % of original price retained.

If we are going to compare DeLoreans to exotic cars (Lambos and 930s) then that's another matter. Lots and lots of classic sports car collectors (those with MG's, Jensens, Lotuses, Bimmers other than M1's, most streetable Porsches) wonder when their special cars will skyrocket in value like a MBZ 300SL or a Ferrari 330GTC.

[John U]

I'm not talking about value since the cars were new. I am talking about cars of the 80s (ones from the posters on the bedroom wall) that have had a jump in value over the past five years or so. The Delorean seems very stagnant despite being so much a part of pop culture (numerous recent tv commercials and music videos etc.)
it seems to me that such an icon of the 80s should be appreciating along side other 80s exotics.

[dmcjohn]

Is it the density of these cars to remain an underappreciated classic?

Intentional BTTF pun?

I hope they don't increase too much - I want to buy a few more!

John

[rileydawgg]

I had a 1987 Buick Grand National, and even though a semi-rare care, I believe the value of these were most hampered by the reputation of the build quality. Ironically, in its own way it was similar to the DeLorean -- basically only built for 2-3 years, essentially one style, few options, a very particular look that people either love or hate, questionable build quality in places, specifically tied to the 80s, and essentially killed by GM brass (they were getting complaints from Corvette owners that their flagship car was being beaten up at the track by a Buick of all things!). I bought mine from the original owner, it was in good condition, and I both restored and improved it to be a reliable and fun daily driver. As a result of there being so few cars that weren't beaten up or modified for the track, I got a good price for mine when I sold it. I thought the value of those cars would have grown even more by now, but they have pretty much leveled out. The special edition version, the GNX, is a different story... and I think that car will go up in value as the years progress. I think the value of DeLoreans will grow as more get restored and driven to counter the reputations of its quality, and the misinformation about its history and JZD get chipped away by the actual truth.

By the way, here's my GN, and I do miss her...30971

[John U]

Intentional BTTF pun?

I hope they don't increase too much - I want to buy a few more!

John

Hahahahha finally someone picked up on it!

[dustybarn]

This thread from a couple of years ago is relevant:

http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?3444

In terms of retention of original value, the D is right up there with Porsche 911s and Corvettes. I think cars like 930s should be considered outliers.

928's and Esprits are at the bottom (and I would love to have one of either, or both!)

[Jonathan]

How much is an exotic or supercar from the 80s worth? Like $100,000? Or $60,000? Is that what a Countach goes for or one of the Ferrari's mentioned?

One thing that came to mind reading John's original comments and the ones that followed would be whether an owner of a classic with a supercar price would do their own work?

I would be inclined to think the answer is no. Not saying every supercar owner is just a person with lots of money and hands it over to their mechanic or shop to get it worked on, but as the price of ownership goes up, the type of owner changes.

I see the thoughts on our cars being orphans and how that compares to other orphan cars, but like it or not, there is a bad reputation out there for our cars and it's likely contributing to keeping the prices down. We know how much misinformation there is on our car, the history or maintenance of and you can find it with Joe Public at a car show as well as Bob the Mechanic that has the sign out front saying he won't work on DeLoreans. You can find it in this thread actually too.

Add to that how there isn't a DeLorean specific shop near most owners and I would think many prospective owners wouldn't consider buying the car. We have all seen owners locally or on the forum that have come and gone because it can be a shock to someone new that you can't just get in these cars and drive like you can some others.

If someone has Countach money and the circle of friends that goes with that lifestyle, I doubt they are going to be thrilled to be embarrassed in front of these friends when their car isn't working. My guess is they will buy whatever car they can pay someone else to deal with relatively easily in order to avoid the break down embarrassment and it won't end up being the DeLorean.

On the other hand, I don't see a lot of old Countach's driving around every day and I do see DeLoreans. Maybe the prices will eventually go up when most of our cars only ever sit in the garage on display? Sometimes things are expensive only because they are rare and not because they are great.

[OverlandMan]

I look at it like this:


The Porsche 911 just had its 50th anniverary this year. Prices are super-inflated on those right now.
Ferrari 308s and 328s were handbuilt cars; plus it's a FERRARI. No other car can say that.
Look at the 928s and the Lotus Esprits. They aren't bringing huge $ right now.
Heck look at the Lamorghini Jalpa! They only made 410 of those and you can get one for $30-$40k. And it has a V8 in it!
Give this market segment another 10-20 yrs and you should see improvement.
The DeLorean has lots of negative press around it and that *might* eternally cap its value unless you have a gold car.


I didn't buy the DeLorean as an investment vehicle. That's what the 308 is for. Looking for a Testarossa (non red exterior) next! Those are really starting to take off.

[OverlandMan]

How much is an exotic or supercar from the 80s worth? Like $100,000? Or $60,000? Is that what a Countach goes for or one of the Ferrari's mentioned?


Countaches have taken off in the past couple of years. IIR they only made around 2,000 between 1974 and 1990. Values are all over the board. Very early cars can bring 7 figures, while the 25th anniversary edition (1989-90) fetches upwards of $200k

The 308 and 328 Ferraris as of this month are bringing $45k up to $100k depending on a few variables. Assuming excellent driver cars BTW.

The 288 GTO Ferrari is approaching the $2 million mark, with only 272 produced.

The Dino's from the early-mid 70s are fetching $400k+ today. That was a $90k car 5-6 years ago. The 512 BB and BBi seem to be headed in the same direction. It's amazing to see.

[Rich_NYS]

I hope they don't increase too much - I want to buy a few more!

John


Roger that....

[DMCVegas]

Whose ready for a good read?


...there are still enough "projects" out there that go for less and people are not wiling to spend that much because they can get a "cheaper one" somewhere else.

http://i.imgur.com/edBQBeJ.gif

In order for a car to become valuable, you need a few factors to figure in on it. Along with that there is also a bell curve too, but we'll talk more about that later. The factors that a car needs to become valuable are:


Desirability. This usually manifests itself by way of nostalgia of some sort. Pop-Culture figures into this a great deal by the car either being apart of some sort of Entertainment Property, or use used to sell nostagia to the older crowd.
Rarity: Just as importantly we need rarity. This comes in either the form of low-production numbers, or project cars that are finally running out of supply for those who wish to buy-in to the marque.
Lack of Parts availability. This is a HUGE one! You need parts to keep a vehicle on the road, and you also need a parts constraint to keep other owner's cars OFF of the road so that your's becomes rarer by way of proper functionality.



So first off, yes, we have BTTF. It's a great property to have for us to boost the marque via Pop-Culture. The allure is two-fold of both nostalgia and second an easily accessible movie car that can be readily purchased and actually driven. The Batmobile for instance doesn't exist. You can't buy one. But you know what you can do? You can buy a DeLorean. Hell, you can even fully convert it to a BTTF time machine even. Another prime example of this phenomenon? Yellow Chevy Camaros. How many of those do you see running around? Lots. Why? Because of the movie, Transformers, and I'll bet most have Autobot stickers on them somewhere. Same situation.

Second is the rarity aspect of it all. Now with most cars of the past, these were pretty much just regular cars at the time and were disposable. They were sold, junked, or just abandoned. Slowly over time they were rediscovered. The DMC-12 has a bit of a different history however. Before there was Back to the Future, there was October 20th, 1982. This was the day that JZD was arrested. When that happened, the marque was of course changed forever. But most people don't actually know what happened the same night as well as in the following months. Once news hit the club in California (pre-DOA) went into overdrive trying to network together with dealers and anyone out there who had parts supplies to keep them available. No one knew of the cache in Dunmurry let alone what the future held. At the same time, tons of buyers smelled blood in the water and sensing an opportunity started buying up DMC-12s for investments. Many, MANY cars were purchased only to be driven someplace and parked in the hopes of the owner one day cashing in. As the former Sales Manager at the Las Vegas dealership told me, they couldn't give DMC-12s away once bad news about the company both in the press, as well as among owners and dealerships stopped being paid for warranty service spread. Likewise the lack of dealer financing also played a role. They sat on cars for the last few months of the company's existence. Then suddenly after the arrest, BAM! Cash buyers were showing up in droves and the inventory disappeared.

Something to tie into the Pop-Culture aspect is the Tucker '48. Tucker has a very interesting symbiosis with DeLorean. Just as BTTF helped catapult the DMC-12 into the public eye, so did the film Tucker: The Man and His Dream for the '48. Tucker was there to capture the interest of a failed car company and it's underdog champion whose name was on the grilles of his cars as the public had been with JZD. In the economy of the 1980's, there was actually a ton of unexpected public sympathy towards JZD as a hero that tried to save his company and his worker's jobs since most American corporations were merely downsizing and selling out their employees. The negativity only came later on. But when Tucker came out, and values of the '48 started rising again, it only emboldened the investors who bought these cars to hang onto them longer because a payday was just around the corner.

Another factor about rareness is this: DMC-12s don't really have the rust problems that other cars do. Yes, because of the lower values, it is indeed more profitable sometimes to part a car out rather than restore it. But thanks to Stainless Steel body panels skinned over a cab & chassis design where the cab is fiberglass that doesn't rust, the majority of the car survives. Park a DMC-12 on a damp dirt patch for 30 years under a tarp, you'll waste the chassis, but it can be replaced. Do the same with a Mustang or any other traditionally built car, and it'll have a whole lot more damage.

So yes, there are still many, MANY DMC-12s out there in garages just waiting. Some are unmolested originals, others are derelicts. But they survive, and there will almost always be one to restore. Unless you have someone willing to part out a car, OR it's been absolutely destroyed in an accident, the number of cars we have doesn't go down like other marques because we have a whole other set of factors than they do.

Finally we have the parts. Like I said, with rare parts come rarely running cars and that just drives up the value. We however do not have that problem here. After the company folded, most dealerships sent their parts back to DMC's trustee for liquidation. So what you see in Houston didn't all come from the factory. In fact, if you ever have been in their warehouse and see the rack of defective NCTs replaced under warranty, that's proof enough for you there why "factory" parts have dealer warranty tags. But the parts were never organized by KAPAC. So back in the 90's, we had a dwindling parts supply. Best example: Left front fender. People will HOARD those things. The demand for them has always been present of course, but now that DMCH and others have been able to better advertise the fact that not only can they repair the fenders but also have emergency stock the demand for them has gone way down. And with that has been the price. Same thing with Houston after they opened up and started discovering "new" NOS parts that were long thought exhausted, and started making new ones.

A old nickname for the DeLorean has been "The Poor man's Ferrari". Undoubtedly so, and when it comes to parts very understandable. Even now, parts for a DMC-12 compared to a "normal" car are in many cases still cheaper than others. Compare that with Ferrari where just on name alone they significantly jack up the prices on both parts and tools. Not to mention as well that with the DeLorean, you've have a much larger "DIY" rather than "Pay-to-Play" mentality, and that too keeps prices down.

All in all, the DMC-12 just isn't as "exclusive" of a car as others due to the fact that it's far more accessible than other marques. Granted though that's helped many more people enjoy them than other marques too. There's probably more pictures of other exotics in people's homes than there garages, but the opposite is most likely true of the DeLorean.

Now nostalgia does have a bell curve. When the nostalgia is tied to a specific generation, when that generation dies off so does the desirability of their cars. Like the Pierce-Arrows and Dusenbergs of yesteryear, the only thing maintaining their "values" are insurance values. The sales prices which determine true salable price go right on down. And we see this a great deal too with other cars of the same vintage as the DeLorean. The DeLorean has not only a timeless design, but the marque has kept on reinventing itself across pop-culture. This is why prices while not skyrocketing the same as more rarer cars, have stabilized and even increased far more than other vehicles.

[Denverdelorean]

I think one thing that is 'hindering' the value of the DeLorean is the increasing number of 'barn finds' coming out of the woodwork. Mine was previously not driven since 97 or 98. I only know that because the torsion pars were adjusted in 98. The car has not been registered since 96. A few of the cars I have seen for sale are non runners. These cars are going to be bought up and restored, and the stock of inexpensive restoration candidates will deplete. This will lead the car in general to increase in value over the next 20 to 30 years as we all approach our 60's and beyond.

I didn't buy my car as an investment. But I was attracted to the fact that stripping the paint and getting it running would nearly double the value I paid and beyond. Will they ever be countache prices? No. But they never were to begin with. The 1982 Countache LP5000 stickered at $118,000. Almost 5 times what our cars stickered for. As of april this year, they were trending at just about that - much like our cars. If you factor in inflation, both have retained similar value. The countache is EXTREMELY hot right at this moment. Maybe the D will hit a similar spike, but then everyone will cash out and the spike will level off.

Countache http://www.hagerty.com/valuationtools/HVT/VehicleSearch/Report?vc=1332146

Delorean http://www.hagerty.com/valuationtools/HVT/VehicleSearch/Report?vc=919041

[lindbergh]

Maybe one day, but no time soon. Remember, this is NOT a car that peaks the interest of most collectors, it is an enthusiasts car not a collectors car.

[David T]

Maybe one day, but no time soon. Remember, this is NOT a car that peaks the interest of most collectors, it is an enthusiasts car not a collectors car.


Just the other day, a non-runner in need of everything just sold at auction for $26,000. Maybe things are looking up?

[DMCMW Dave]

I agree there is an interesting "disturbance in the force" going on at the moment, maybe an influx of un-educated buyers, but I've seen some pretty marginal cars, even parts cars, go for (apparently) ridiculous prices. You never really know, I've also seen some of those "apparent" sales not be real. The auction business strikes me as pretty squirrelly at times.

[Rich]

I didn't buy my car as an investment. But I was attracted to the fact that stripping the paint and getting it running would nearly double the value I paid and beyond. Will they ever be countache prices? No. But they never were to begin with. The 1982 Countache LP5000 stickered at $118,000. Almost 5 times what our cars stickered for. As of april this year, they were trending at just about that - much like our cars. If you factor in inflation, both have retained similar value. The countache is EXTREMELY hot right at this moment. Maybe the D will hit a similar spike, but then everyone will cash out and the spike will level off.


Some others have pointed to the rarity factor relative to collector car price trends. The price report points to the Countach LP400S. Also mentioned is the '82 LP5000S, aka LP500S.

Production figures for:

The entire 3-year run of the Countach LP400S: 237 cars
The entire run of the Countach LP5000S/LP500S: 321 cars
All the Countachs ever made over a 16-year period: 2042 cars
The entire run of the DeLorean DMC-12: ~8500 cars

With 4x more DeLoreans produced its value is unlikely to peak like any of the Countachs' value has peaked any time soon.

[SIMid]

I agree there is an interesting "disturbance in the force" going on at the moment, maybe an influx of un-educated buyers, but I've seen some pretty marginal cars, even parts cars, go for (apparently) ridiculous prices.

We can't argue if it's happening. It would be satisfying for any current owner (me as well), that our cars are going to be worth more than what we paid for. To retire on, porbably not, but at least to get most of our investment back would be satisfying.

Plus the US dollar is becoming stronger, the value of these cars overseas will also increase gradually.

[Jonathan]

I stopped in the other day to the mechanic I originally had working on my car when I lived in the city. I mostly wanted to say hi and tell him how I drove the car to Ohio in June because I knew he'd appreciate what that means.

We chatted about a few things and one of the things he said he was always amazed at was how the DeLorean parts prices were not very expensive.

I tend to agree with him. Not every single part on the car is this way, but many are. I mentioned how my 2009 Pontiac G8 cost me $93 for a pair of replacement windshield wipers (parts only, self install) and the replacement pair on the DeLorean is $10.

I saw it mentioned earlier about how cars get rare and exclusive and expensive not just when the cars themselves are all of those three things, but when the replacement parts are too. That's not the case with our cars for the most part (like was pointed out with the Countach numbers). And I like it that way.

[louielouie2000]

Something which people also seem to be leaving out of the equation is the fact the DeLorean has absolutely zero motorsports credentials. Every single marque mentioned in this thread, sans the Tucker, has storied racing histories. The DeLorean might have been able to overcome this lack of racing pedigree had it been a true sports car, but it wasn't. It's firmly in the Grand Touring category. Even grand touring cars from the storied marques don't appreciate like their sports/supercar counterparts; especially of that era. Look at the depressed values of the Ferrari 400i & Porsche 928, for instance. Compared to the DeLorean, those cars values are in the gutter.

I really have to wonder what will happen to DeLorean values in the future. Those who were young and aspired to own the car when it was new are now all in their 40s, 50s, and beyond. Those of us who grew up in the BTTF generation are now into our 30s & beyond. This means values for these cars should be in their prime right now, because all of us who lusted after these vehicles in our youths are now fully grown & into our established careers. So what happens when us Gen X & Gen Y folks start aging out of the game- will the slack be picked up by a younger generation? I recently read an article on the Jensen Interceptor, and how it was starting to encounter that exact fate. It's enthusiast base was aging out, and seemingly no one is coming in behind them. I'm not saying the DeLorean's future is that bleak, but the DeLorean marque does face some very real challenges in the coming decades.

[DMCMW Dave]

I'm not saying the DeLorean's future is that bleak, but the DeLorean marque does face some very real challenges in the coming decades.

This is a pretty common value curve (i.e. the hot spot when the car is 30 years old, because that's when you have the money to buy what you wanted in high school) in the collector car business, but the DeLorean actually has a wider curve than most due to the "second generation" of BTTF fans. If that had not happened, the current fan base for DeLoreans would now all be close to 60 years old. Look at who shows up at Corvette meets with cars from the late 70s-mid 80s.

You need to watch for the time when the average owner is 60-ish and be careful 10 years out. I don't think we're there yet, as we have a huge number of owners in the 30-ish range, and that's also where all the energy doing mods and upgrades is.

[Parzval]

I hope they don't increase too much - I want to buy a few more!

John

I sweat my ass off every time a BTTF anniversary rolls by thinking: "This will be the one that drives them out of my price range." I'm finally almost there, and hoping to get one before the 30th anniversary "surge". Let me get just one. Just onee is all I need (haha, yeah right), well, one for a start and I'll be happy! :D

[Alan]

I sweat my ass off every time a BTTF anniversary rolls by thinking: "This will be the one that drives them out of my price range." I'm finally almost there, and hoping to get one before the 30th anniversary "surge". Let me get just one. Just onee is all I need (haha, yeah right), well, one for a start and I'll be happy! :D

This.

I've wanted a DeLorean for over a decade. I am almost certain I'll be able to start my search in earnest this coming spring if not sooner. A dramatic increase in value could easily change all that.

[John U]

This.

I've wanted a DeLorean for over a decade. I am almost certain I'll be able to start my search in earnest this coming spring if not sooner. A dramatic increase in value could easily change all that.

Thats what happened to my dream of owning a porsche 930!
Oh well, a 928 with a supercharger is faster! (And waaaay cheaper!)

[AugustneverEnds]

Even grand touring cars from the storied marques don't appreciate like their sports/supercar counterparts; especially of that era. Look at the depressed values of the Ferrari 400i & Porsche 928, for instance. Compared to the DeLorean, those cars values are in the gutter.


Early Porsche 928s can be had on the cheap but later S4s(1987-1990) GTs (1991-1992) and, especially, the GTS (1993-1995) fetch a decent price of the excellent condition cars. Ferrari 365, 400, and 400i might be selling for a fraction of their original stickers but still aren't chump change. Good condition 412s (1985-1989) seem to hover between 40-45K.

I do agree that the less practical and more sporty a model is, the greater the prices tend to be. Even when the more GT oriented one is the better car. The BMW 3.0cs and Bavaria are nearly identical except in two crucial ways: the 3.0cs has 2 fewer doors and the Bavaria doesn't instantly turn to rust when exposed to moisture like the 3.0cs. And, naturally, the Bavaria can be had for a pittance while 3.0cs are 30k+. The old car market is weird :thinkin:

[Sidaries]

For me, my car's value had increased quite a lot in the past 6 years. I bought it for the price of 14800$, shipped to Europe, payed the taxes and the final price was around 24000$ that time (4,3M Ft.).

Now the Deloreans in Europe are 25000 euro minimum, but usually 30-35000 euro, which means that the price had been doubled (~10M Ft.). So for me the question is not relevant. :)

[delornut]

Something which people also seem to be leaving out of the equation is the fact the DeLorean has absolutely zero motorsports credentials. Every single marque mentioned in this thread, sans the Tucker, has storied racing histories. The DeLorean might have been able to overcome this lack of racing pedigree had it been a true sports car, but it wasn't. It's firmly in the Grand Touring category. Even grand touring cars from the storied marques don't appreciate like their sports/supercar counterparts; especially of that era. Look at the depressed values of the Ferrari 400i & Porsche 928, for instance. Compared to the DeLorean, those cars values are in the gutter.

I really have to wonder what will happen to DeLorean values in the future. Those who were young and aspired to own the car when it was new are now all in their 40s, 50s, and beyond. Those of us who grew up in the BTTF generation are now into our 30s & beyond. This means values for these cars should be in their prime right now, because all of us who lusted after these vehicles in our youths are now fully grown & into our established careers. So what happens when us Gen X & Gen Y folks start aging out of the game- will the slack be picked up by a younger generation? I recently read an article on the Jensen Interceptor, and how it was starting to encounter that exact fate. It's enthusiast base was aging out, and seemingly no one is coming in behind them. I'm not saying the DeLorean's future is that bleak, but the DeLorean marque does face some very real challenges in the coming decades.

I think the DeLorean falls victim to a two edged sword. On one hand the car is unique and relatively rare. It's styling currently offers the most exotica for the buck in the automotive world. On the other side of the sword much of it's following comes from it's role in the Back to the Future films. That tends to color the car as a cartoon character which currently seems to play the dominate interest among newer owners. I think that needs to be down played and interest has to be revived in the car itself before values rise in any significant amount and that's going to take a lot of time.

Bruce Benson

[OverlandMan]

Recent Hagerty valuations were published showing our car on the rise. Is this a real takeoff or just another spot to plateau? The naysayers would point to the BTTF anniversary and claim this is temporary and they could be right. The optimist would say values will continue to go up or at least follow the general collector market.

I'm split on this. I still think the car will never bring "big bucks" for reasons previously cited; however, as the whole collector market moves up it is fun to watch the correlation. When/If the bubble bursts, it will be interesting to see how the market responds.

34220

[ccurzio]

I think the DeLorean falls victim to a two edged sword. On one hand the car is unique and relatively rare. It's styling currently offers the most exotica for the buck in the automotive world. On the other side of the sword much of it's following comes from it's role in the Back to the Future films. That tends to color the car as a cartoon character which currently seems to play the dominate interest among newer owners. I think that needs to be down played and interest has to be revived in the car itself before values rise in any significant amount and that's going to take a lot of time.

Bruce Benson

Except BTTF is the reason the car is as well known as it is. If those movies used any other car, the DMC-12 would have been just another automotive blip known only to a tiny amount of people, like the Bricklin.

[David T]

Except BTTF is the reason the car is as well known as it is. If those movies used any other car, the DMC-12 would have been just another automotive blip known only to a tiny amount of people, like the Bricklin.

It is a function of "A rising tide lifts all boats" effect. Prices tend to go up a little every year. But the other side of the coin is as cars get older they tend to go down in value because they need work. The rising prices are for the ones in better shape. The "beaters" won't go up much if at all.

[Rich_NYS]

I think for prices to fall significantly after BTTF 2015, there would need to either be a selloff or equivalent lack of interest in the usual market (to affect the metrics of supply/demand.)

I used to think it's a bubble that will pop after 2015, but now I'm thinking there will be continued interested/no selloff due to people finding out how much they really enjoy owning the car. A dude buys a "bucket-list D" and enjoys it so much, the honeymoon never ends so he keeps it. (I bought one in December 2013, then another 14 months later.)

Also, it appears the attraction transcends all age groups so the teens that lost their shit when first seeing one a few years ago will soon become potential owners. Looks to me like there could be a fresh crop of DeLorean owners on deck right behind the youngest of us. (I recently met a college-age owner.) Plus, take a look at the younger dudes and the badass stuff they're doing (Nick, Josh from Canada, Pat C...etc.) It looks to me like the interest is trending upward, not downward.

Some things never go out of style, and I think the DeLorean is one of those things.


(Now if someone can explain WTH those last two cars at BHCC sold for 15K-16K, I'd really be interested in the answer to that one!)

[Rich_NYS]

The rising prices are for the ones in better shape. The "beaters" won't go up much if at all.

The near opposite has been true over the past 12 months....."project car" prices have been though the roof.

[OverlandMan]

It is a function of "A rising tide lifts all boats" effect. Prices tend to go up a little every year. But the other side of the coin is as cars get older they tend to go down in value because they need work. The rising prices are for the ones in better shape. The "beaters" won't go up much if at all.

The Hagerty graph I posted would refute this. It breaks down vehicles into 4 categories based-off condition. If you look at condition 3-4 cars, or your so called "beaters", they still trend slightly upwards, again following the car and market in general.

Furthermore, the DeLorean has been relatively flat for the past few years. Only this past quarter shows a significant increase over prior trends. It's nothing HUGE but its cool to see as an owner.



(Now if someone can explain WTH those last two cars at BHCC sold for 15K-16K, I'd really be interested in the answer to that one!)

Anything coming from BHCC is a red-flag to me. Most of their stuff I've seen online would fall into condition 3-4 cars.

[David T]

The Hagerty graph I posted would refute this. It breaks down vehicles into 4 categories based-off condition. If you look at condition 3-4 cars, or your so called "beaters", they still trend slightly upwards, again following the car and market in general.

Furthermore, the DeLorean has been relatively flat for the past few years. Only this past quarter shows a significant increase over prior trends. It's nothing HUGE but its cool to see as an owner.


Anything coming from BHCC is a red-flag to me. Most of their stuff I've seen online would fall into condition 3-4 cars.

When you see parts prices from the Delorean venders go up it will cause the price of #1-2 condition cars to go up and #3-4 to go down. If it starts costing a lot to make a #3-4 into a #1-2 things will change. The other factor is for an orphan Marque, there are a lot of Deloreans comparitivley speaking. Many more than for other orphan Marques. For instance look at Tucker, there are only 50 of them. Because so many Deloreans were produced and many still exist, in the world of car collecting, it is as if it was mass produced. It is also an under-appreciated Marque, not unlike Lotus.

[Hokie]

Thought you guys would be interested. I know a guy that had a real beater of a D; totally shot interior, doors barely closed, barely ran, etc. He ""tentatively" sold the car and on the way to deliver it a bidding war erupted online for his car. Long story short, he sold it for $25,000. This was about 4 weeks ago.

[DMCVegas]

When I first started lurking around the DeLorean community back in late 1996, basket case cars could be had for a song. Now? Not so much. Prices are increasing across the board, but the better condition the car is in, the higher the price difference from way back when.

DeLorean prices have gone up though thanks to the internet. Before the first USENET group that started this online community, you pretty much only had either experienced mechanics, local clubs, and the DOA's magazine, DeLorean World to rely upon for technical help. For the mechanics, it was going to be an expensive repair because of the labor charges. If they were to give you advice, you'd have to be well out of driving distance so that they wouldn't lose a sale. Local clubs did indeed help make things better, but that was still a limited range for most folks. And if you had a technical question to be submitted to DW, it was going to be a 3-month minimum before you got an answer. Assuming that it would even get printed in the next issue, if at all.

When the online presence came about, answers were much more instantaneous. The DML had lots of stories about people who purchased used DMC-12s from lots or private sellers, and were able to quickly sort out common problems thanks to the abundance of easily accessible information. Turn around time went from months, to hours to get a solution for a problem. And that is when the project cars began to all be snatched up. The interest has always been in those cars, because it's an inexpensive way to get into the hobby. Until those started disappearing, we didn't really get to see the increase in the higher-quality cars since now they're becoming the ones that are easier to find versus the project cars. Now of course we still have the Daily Drivers. Which for a brief while were almost neck-and-neck against the concourse cars back in the late 90's.

The big thing has been building the community to support the marque and one another. Which with the DeLorean is a much more supportive one than most.


I think for prices to fall significantly after BTTF 2015, there would need to either be a selloff or equivalent lack of interest in the usual market (to affect the metrics of supply/demand.)

Very true, and it's happened before. The last big sell-off was around Y2K. The most cars I ever saw for sale at once on CCTOL was 81 cars. It depressed the prices for a while after, but they started climbing again.

My big guess though is that we're going to see a large sell-off not in 2016 once BTTF's anniversary is over, but because we're going to see the car collectors that hoarded vehicles as investments after DMC failed, start to liquidate them for retirement. The first wave of baby boomers will hit 70 next year, and the final ones are in their 50's. I don't think it will be as prolific as the late 1990's, but I absolutely think that within the next 5 or so years, we're going to see a rise in project cars that come out of storage after their owners either get desperate, or their surviving family sells the vehicles off.



Some things never go out of style, and I think the DeLorean is one of those things.

Totally agreed. It's a very unique design that for the average person, isn't very dated at all. Sure, we can talk about the 70's wedges, and the quad headlights of the 80's, and for those that remember, or know the design cues, yes, we can pin those down to certain dates. But the contemporaries of the DMC-12's day are mostly gone, and most people don't make that connection at all. Other vehicles may look dated since their manufacturers kept specific design cues to help identify them, but there isn't anything that compares to a DeLorean. It doesn't matter how old or young you are, most people absolutely lose it when they see one. It's going to be one of those vehicles that just soldiers on because it will always find a younger enthusiast to make into an owner to keep it going.

[lindbergh]

Right now there is not an interest from most collectors. Whether it ever will be is the question. As long as it is an enthusiasts car and not a collectors car the value will always be less due to demand. Now when there are only a few left, yes it will have value. That will not happen in my lifetime or probably the next generation either.

[sdg3205]

Here's something that came to mind.

The overwhelming support for our cars these days from all our fabulous vendors also may be creating a glass ceiling of sorts. I can't think of any other short run production car with more NOS, reproduction parts and technical support than the DMC. They've enabled us to drive our cars with confidence.

Collectors collect rare items. Some collectors may look at the abundance of support and decide it detracts from the overall rarity and value of the DMC. Now, given the support network has allowed us to drive the crap out of our cars, the general population of DMCs is racking up more miles than they would be otherwise so now we have fewer functional low mileage DMCs and whether we like it or agree with it or not, collectors want low mile examples.

Down the road when we're out of doors and other NOS stainless panels, the PRV/K-jet components have dried up, interior pieces have been decimated we'll see what happens to value.

[Mark D]

Here's something that came to mind.

The overwhelming support for our cars these days from all our fabulous vendors also may be creating a glass ceiling of sorts. I can't think of any other short run production car with more NOS, reproduction parts and technical support than the DMC. They've enabled us to drive our cars with confidence.

Collectors collect rare items. Some collectors may look at the abundance of support and decide it detracts from the overall rarity and value of the DMC. Now, given the support network has allowed us to drive the crap out of our cars, the general population of DMCs is racking up more miles than they would be otherwise so now we have fewer functional low mileage DMCs and whether we like it or agree with it or not, collectors want low mile examples.

Down the road when we're out of doors and other NOS stainless panels, the PRV/K-jet components have dried up, interior pieces have been decimated we'll see what happens to value.

I've had similar thoughts on how the vendors play a role in the overall value. On the one hand they reduce the value as you've explained, but on the other hand the fully rebuilt/restoration/new build whatever you want to call it cars set the top of the market price. I would say these high-end fully rebuilt cars tend tend to pull the rest of the market up along with them. It basically give someone a point of comparison for the best possible DeLorean you could buy, and a price to work down from to determine a value of a different car.

When i was looking to get my car appraised I think it was Dave at DMCMW who described this approach in valuation. Basically they figure out what your car would need from a maintenance/repair standpoint to be on par with a fully rebuilt "perfect" car, then subtract the cost for the amount of work needed from the top dollar price to determine the appraisal value of the car.

DMCH also has the unique ability to set the price of NOS parts basically at will. A couple years ago they did a blanket price increase on NOS parts:
http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?5906-Whats-up-with-the-price-increase

If tomorrow they were to increase the price of every part by 20% I would think that would have some effect on the value of all cars. Individual parts and running cars are still worth only what someone is willing to pay, but if your only other option besides a used part off a parts car is NOS (and suddenly that price has jumped) you'd be more willing to pay more for a similar good used part. Parts car prices would eventually see an increase, as would the value of good running, driving cars.

[DMCVegas]

Down the road when we're out of doors and other NOS stainless panels, the PRV/K-jet components have dried up, interior pieces have been decimated we'll see what happens to value.

Body panels are not functional, and can be repaired. It's the mechanical bits that count. But I wouldn't count on that either. Granted from what I've heard, BOSCH has wanted to get out of the K-Jetronic business for a while, but DeLoreans and Porches have kept that going. The biggest problem though is the support base for the DMC-12. We've had parts shortfalls in the past, and they've been overcome. The thing is that we have enough people to crowd fund parts development.

And if we suddenly run out of engine parts, I don't think it's going to increase values by making running DeLoreans rarer. The DIY groups here will just be like Cuba and figure a way to transplant cheaper engines to keep the cars going. We'll end up writing "how-to" guides, and like may modifications of the past, it'll all just become commonly acceptable. It won't be, "Oh, you swapped in a V8?" It'll be more like "Did you do the standard V8 upgrade, or is it the original V6?"

Standardized upgrades ALWAYS increase the value of the car. Extend that to engines, and we'll probably see the DD's once again catch up to the Concourse cars. Otherwise the rarity will just be from people not willing to sell, rather than a hard to find parts supply, as well as just regular inflation.

[Rich_NYS]

So collectors drive the market? I wouldn't have guessed that.

I'd be interested in a numbers comparison of how many owners (and/or potential owners) are collectors versus the rest of us.

[DMCVegas]

It depends though IMO. I remember back when they first started televising the Barett-Jackson auctions, and the full-on numbers matching cars were the big money makers. But then the clone cars overtook them in value. The reason was simple: You can fully enjoy a clone car without any guilt. Collectors are obsessive about milage and perfection. Now if you're into the whole restoration process, and the hunt for rare and obscure parts, concourse cars can be very rewarding. But otherwise, they're just no fun. And that's the key thing: Enjoying your car.

I honestly think that the next big jump in DeLorean values is going to be engine swaps. We start dropping higher performance engines into DMC-12s, it's really going to gain people's attention, help the image, and drive prices through the roof. Yeah, it's also a rear-engined car that needs matching brake and suspension upgrades to match the power, so we'll see an uptick in accidents. But once we get a standardized swap procedure underway, that'll be the next big thing.

[Timebender]

Okay, so here's what I see. I see the value starting to go up eventually. Hopefully sooner than later, but that's based on us as owners driving the asking price up vs. selling them cheap to get them sold.
As an example, my son's 1970 RS Camaro was bought for $2650 (the were asking way more but we negotiated them down as they wanted to just unload it). Didn't run, transmission was shot, needed body and paint, and interior but it was a good project car we could look at and know we could get to DD status without a lot of money.
There are tons of aftermarket parts available from Rick's Camaros and Camaro Central to restore his car. We replaced the tranny, got body and paint, put in a new gas tank and got it running pretty good - good enough for DD status but we have a long way from it being "restored". And that's okay. So far with the purchase and parts, and some labor, he's put in about $7500. Other 1970 RS Camaro's out there, that are sitting rusted in some guy's field, or just a shell in a garage, etc. are listed at $10,000 up. Why? Because when everyone asks crazy prices for those, people eventually will say "Okay" thinking they're getting something special (and they are).
Let's talk VW Busses, 1967 and earlier. I bought my 1963 23 window, rolling project for $6500 10 years ago, did a lot of restoration to about 75%, which I was happy with as I could drive it all the time and not be worried about it being a trailer queen. I sold it about 7 years ago in the $20's. Had I held onto it, I could now get $150,000.
Why? Because of two things: Demand, and buyers willing to pay that (originally from Japan). Sellers figured "if they want it I'm going to ask some crazy ridiculous price NO one in their right mind would pay!" And well, the rest is history. I can't even get a rolling shell for less then $15,000 for a 23 window, with no glass, engine, and mostly rusted out.
Owners drive the price. Period. Because once one guy does it, the others follow suit. And then there's demand for our cars, and people willing to pay the price. The saying of "It's only worth what someone is willing to pay" is true. We have to ask more as a group to get more, and then people will eventually be willing to pay that. People already think the DeLorean is worth way more than we typically see or even have bought ours for. So why not control the price? One favor: If it's a fellow DeLorean owner or past one looking to get another, then we give them the Brotherhood of the DeLorean price, aka $15-25k.

If something that was considered a hippie van, cheap piece of junk in the 70's (note, that the 23 Window Type 2 Transporter or Microbus originally sold for $3500 in 1963, something low-income families and pre-hippies couldn't afford) can go for $150,000 up, then our DeLoreans can get a lot more when we list and sell them.

One more thing: If you own a pre-68 air-cooled VW, there are plenty of NOS and aftermarket parts available to keep them running for the next few decades at least, and that only has been driving their value up. Makes them seem easier to fix up (and thus more cost-friendly as you can restore it and enjoy it for as long as you want), and adds more implied value.

[DMCVegas]

The asking price always drives the market. Look what happened with the Amphicar. You used to be able to pick one up for around $15K-$30K depending upon condition. Then out of no where one of them arrived at a Barrett-Jackson auction, and it sold for over $70K. It was just insane money, but it permanently drove the price up.

Even Brickin SV-1's used to range from about $6K-$23K or so until one was featured on the show Cut, Chop, Rebuild. Now unless it's a basket case, you can't buy one under $20K, and pristine examples routinely go for more.

Other cars like the examples you gave, Camaros, and VW's, those marques have their own histories. Comparatively the history of the DMC-12 hasn't been as popular of one as those others. Whereas they have been romanticized with either red-blooded American cruising and street racing, or the bohemian lifestyle of freedom, the DMC-12 hasn't exactly had that same reputation. Part of that has been the media, and a large part has been the pre-internet community that was beyond cliquish.

Whereas other cars have variable customization options, the DMC-12 does not. We had precisely 2 factory build options to choose from: Transmission type, and interior color. Everything else, was either a production change that no buyer ever had a say so in (paint codes, hood types, etc.), or was merely an add-on accessory (side stripes, luggage rack, etc). Now while I personally love the almost oxymoronic idea of an exotic car being "standard issue" for a sense of normalcy, it does hinder uniqueness, and salability to a point.

What we need to do to increase value is public perception. Thanks to the Internet and the media, the past 20 years have been a boon for the marque in terms of awareness. We've got awareness down. Now all we need is a change in perception. Why perception? Because we ain't got nostalgia on our side.

I still believe that a standardized engine swap procedure is the absolute way to go. We have plenty of parts. Hell, other marques have even had to buy DeLorean parts we have so damn many. But thanks to both the obscurity of the PRV in North America, and the lack of performance parts (let alone cheap ones) for this engine, it's just never going to offer a proper customization opportunity. That would at least be something that we could get with a whole new power plant. Don't get me wrong, I love the PRV to death, but it's time has really passed. We couldn't have made it this far without it, but we just can't go on with it.

From 2JZs to LS1s, and even 20b rotarys, people all over go absolutely nuts for these engine swaps when they're put into DMC-12s. The rest of the car doesn't matter. It is a complete game changer in terms of perception. And it's also cheaper than modifying a PRV, and nets more power. Plus there would be tons more options for those that want to massage more power. And looking at everything, it's going to be much, much easier than most people think.

It's just an opinion, of course. But I really think that this is where the next big jump is going to come from.

[Rich_NYS]

The asking price always drives the market.

+1

That's what I was thinking, except I think it's the selling price that matters. Everything is worth whatever someone is willing to pay for it. I saw a "bidding war" on the last 5 cars I looked at before buying 4728.


My .02:

-If people continue to want a DeLorean, the prices will continue to rise.

-If owners don't sell their cars, the prices won't fall.

-If the market gets flooded with barn-finds, the market will dip, then rise again.





I still believe that a standardized engine swap procedure is the absolute way to go.

+1

[OverlandMan]

The asking price always drives the market. Look what happened with the Amphicar. You used to be able to pick one up for around $15K-$30K depending upon condition. Then out of no where one of them arrived at a Barrett-Jackson auction, and it sold for over $70K. It was just insane money, but it permanently drove the price up.


Yea, the auctions seem to really dictate current valuations at any point in time.



I still believe that a standardized engine swap procedure is the absolute way to go. We have plenty of parts. Hell, other marques have even had to buy DeLorean parts we have so damn many. But thanks to both the obscurity of the PRV in North America, and the lack of performance parts (let alone cheap ones) for this engine, it's just never going to offer a proper customization opportunity. That would at least be something that we could get with a whole new power plant. Don't get me wrong, I love the PRV to death, but it's time has really passed. We couldn't have made it this far without it, but we just can't go on with it.

From 2JZs to LS1s, and even 20b rotarys, people all over go absolutely nuts for these engine swaps when they're put into DMC-12s. The rest of the car doesn't matter. It is a complete game changer in terms of perception. And it's also cheaper than modifying a PRV, and nets more power. Plus there would be tons more options for those that want to massage more power. And looking at everything, it's going to be much, much easier than most people think.

It's just an opinion, of course. But I really think that this is where the next big jump is going to come from.

I'll toss my opinion out there respectfully just to give another perspective.

I'm more of a purist. I like to stick as close to original as possible to maintain the factory appeal that originally sold any given car. This doesn't just apply to DeLoreans. Typically, 100% concours examples are unicorns and typically bring top dollar if we're still talking about values.

Now don't get me wrong; I'm not bashing resto-mod or hot-rod guys. Some of those folks are extremely talented. In the balance between left-brained artistry and right-brained engineering, I have nothing but respect; however, it's just usually not my cup of tea.

Getting back to our cars... I didn't buy my car to make loud V8 grumbles or spin the tires. As long as I can get parts for my stock setup *at a reasonable cost*, that's the way I intend to keep it.

[DMCVegas]

That's what I was thinking, except I think it's the selling price that matters. Everything is worth whatever someone is willing to pay for it. I saw a "bidding war" on the last 5 cars I looked at before buying 4728.


My .02:

-If people continue to want a DeLorean, the prices will continue to rise.

-If owners don't sell their cars, the prices won't fall.

-If the market gets flooded with barn-finds, the market will dip, then rise again.

Agreed across the board. The barn-finds causing the market to dip is absolutely true, and something that we've seen before at the end of the 90's and early 2000's. Not only as a cheaper purchasing alternative to get into the marquee, but they can be more desirable for someone that wants to customize a car. We're also past a good amount of the financial crisis as well with things starting to really stabilize. Granted there are a few pockets here and there still recovering, but when people don't need money as bad, they tend not to sell their things to get that cash.

Plus, I agree that we're getting more and more owners who seem to appreciate the car more than those of the past. Mainly because the DeLorean buyer of today has done their research enough to not only want the car, but knows how to maintain it. Whereas in the past, it was less mechanically inclined people who tended to purchase more for investment than pleasure. That's two different mentalities in relation to long-term ownership. One doesn't plan on selling, and the other wants to, but only at the right time. The latter of the two, the investors, those dried up long ago, and buyers now are in it for the long haul and won't be reselling anytime soon.



Yea, the auctions seem to really dictate current valuations at any point in time.

It's amazing, isn't it? That does lead me to one more thing about increasing values. A few years ago (when I still had cable) there was a show on Velocity I think that consisted of three "experts" that would look over a vehicle before it headed to auction, give some commentary, and then give their estimates about what they thought it was sell for. They had a DMC-12 on the show, and the guys were just raging on it, and gave it a low selling price. The car though went to auction also sold for thousands of dollars more than these guys thought. They were thinking mid to high teens, and this thing hit high 20's. The guys were blown away, offered excuses auto why they were wrong (blaming the buyer), the whole nine yards.

But the thing is, there was one thing they overlooked: What the seller had in is trunk. Unlike having just a car for sale, he actually had a memorabilia collection, and a portfolio too if I'm not mistaken. And that's the thing that everyone can do, but no one does to increase the asking price for a car: include goodies.

At bare minimum, every car should have a portfolio. It would be awesome if your car already came with service records. But if not, start building them now. It's never too late. Talk to the DMV and order copies of the registration materials from the time the car was first bought, until now. If someone has a collection of old magazines, buy them. Get your hands onto some memorabilia and keep it with the car. Because it will help with both a speedy sale, as well as an increased sale price. I mean, if you were going to buy a DeLorean right now, or, even think back to when you purchased your current car. If you had 2 cars that were perfectly equal across the board. I mean other than VIN plates they were completely indistinguishable. The cosmetics and mechanicals were the exact same, as is the asking price, which would you choose? It's impossible. But imagine that one of the cars comes with some memorabilia thrown in. You're going to go for that car. And if you're the seller, you know you're going to ask for more money when those items go with the car. And chances are that when you've spent some time and have those rare pieces, people will overpay just to get them.

That alone can help drive up selling prices. It's not something we take into consideration with *why* the cars sold for what they did, but it does help prices overall.



I'll toss my opinion out there respectfully just to give another perspective.

I'm more of a purist. I like to stick as close to original as possible to maintain the factory appeal that originally sold any given car. This doesn't just apply to DeLoreans. Typically, 100% concours examples are unicorns and typically bring top dollar if we're still talking about values.

Now don't get me wrong; I'm not bashing resto-mod or hot-rod guys. Some of those folks are extremely talented. In the balance between left-brained artistry and right-brained engineering, I have nothing but respect; however, it's just usually not my cup of tea.

Getting back to our cars... I didn't buy my car to make loud V8 grumbles or spin the tires. As long as I can get parts for my stock setup *at a reasonable cost*, that's the way I intend to keep it.

That's perfectly fine. Some engine swaps are pretty gnarly though, I'll give you that. But the engine swaps are going to be the last untouched area for customization. And it's customization that helps set cars apart. Plus it's not something the tinkers with the cosmetics, which like art, the beauty of which is in the eye of the beholder. But for myself, allow me to share my thoughts on it.

For years I've been quite happy with my PRV. Granted now I lived in Nevada, the most mountainous state in all of the US. Lots of steep grades, and turns. It's the perfect place for a DeLorean for handling, and the engine since the PRV has gobs of low-end torque. Other cars may beat you off the line, but when you hit a hill the PRV will just keep pulling as though nothing happened, but those other cars slow WAY down. But I blew my engine, and decided it was time for another. So I have a spare PRV I picked up.

But one day I'm filling up my truck, and I hear this LOUD engine rumble, and see a late model GTO go flying by. Now I loved the GTO. I thought it was a nice car, and very nondescript when I test drove one at a GM event. And I thought that maybe I should buy one. Last time I saw they were going for about $20K or so at the time, and I thought about what it would take to buy one. Because it would be nice to have a car that I could just stop on the gas pedal and go. Then I thought about what it would cost to completely redo the entire K-Jet system on my PRV, as well as the other work I'd have to do, and then it just hit me.

Why waste money buying and insuring a second muscle car when I could instead just spend that cash on an engine swap to make the DeLorean into the car that I really want? I mean, I have no plans on ever selling it. I doubt I'm ever going to have a massive bard to store a collection, and I always compare every other car to my D, so why not take the plunge and do the swap? There is some fabrication involved, sure. But I seriously doubt that with what I have in mind, it's going to be as difficult as everyone thinks. Because of that, I think that we can standardize the whole thing and make it a commonly accepted swap.

I don't think that it'll take away from the value of other vehicles. There are still plenty of stock examples, and buyers will still want those I'm sure. Granted if anything takes a hit because of the engine swaps, I think it'll be more of the average cars than anything else. To increase their values, they'll need to step up their games to be either Concourse or Custom.

The whole reasonable price thing like you pointed out was a key factor for me too. A cylinder head from DMCH is almost $1,500. Warp two of them, and that's $3K worth of damage. For that kind of money, I can just buy a whole new engine from a junkyard. A Stage III engine was estimated to be somewhere around $16K, and twin turbo setups are even more. I think that Josh quoted something like over $20K. Worst of all is that DeLorean vendors won't sell you this stuff as a kit. It all has to be installed by them which increases the amount even more.

I think we can do an engine swap with minimal fabrication for about $20K. And that would include upgraded cooling and brakes with a brand-new crate engine. Chop a few thousand off if we go with a junkyard engine.

[OverlandMan]

The whole reasonable price thing like you pointed out was a key factor for me too. A cylinder head from DMCH is almost $1,500. Warp two of them, and that's $3K worth of damage. For that kind of money, I can just buy a whole new engine from a junkyard. A Stage III engine was estimated to be somewhere around $16K, and twin turbo setups are even more. I think that Josh quoted something like over $20K. Worst of all is that DeLorean vendors won't sell you this stuff as a kit. It all has to be installed by them which increases the amount even more.


Yep. If I were going to move away from stock by upgrading the engine performance, I wouldn't want to fork over $10k-$20k for PRV mods. At that point, you're probably better off going the path you describe.

Heck, you'd be better off putting that $20k towards picking up a decent Porsche 993 and haul-ass all day long. That would fit my tastes more than American muscle stuff.

[DMCVegas]

Yep. If I were going to move away from stock by upgrading the engine performance, I wouldn't want to fork over $10k-$20k for PRV mods. At that point, you're probably better off going the path you describe.

Heck, you'd be better off putting that $20k towards picking up a decent Porsche 993 and haul-ass all day long. That would fit my tastes more than American muscle stuff.

Exactly. I love the engine, but it's time has really come to an end. It's been out of production for 17 years now, and it's just not worth it.

I'm honestly looking at the Ford 3.5L EcoBoost. It's a compact 60° V6 with 365hp and 420ft-lb. of torque in stock form. It uses the Coyote V8 bolt pattern, so you just need a bell housing adaptor from a GT-40 kit car. There are aftermarket engine controllers, but Ford will be coming out with a Control Pack soon. Meaning there is no screwing around with MegaSquirt, patching together sensors, or worst of all consistently tuning the engine. It's all plug & play because it's a true factory tune with a factory harness.

Other than the intake, intercoolers, & exhaust, all you need to fabricate are motor mounts, and possibly modify the oil pan. But the block's mounting points are in almost the same location as the PRV, and the oil pan may actually fit fine since the engine doesn't need to be moved forward to accommodate length like we've seen with longer engines (3 sequential pistons with the V6 unlike 4 on a V8, or 6 on the I6 2JZ). No chopping of the frame so we remain safe in a crash. No modifying transmission mounts or shifter linkage, it all remains stock meaning less work to do. The only internal work we need done is the Input Shaft on the UN-369. And if that's not enough, there are people on YouTube tuning this same engine with no internal modifications, and they're knocking on 600hp. Even in stock form, the new Raptor version is estimated to be between 450-500hp on this same little V6. Best of all, Ford has designated this same engine for use in the new Ford GT, which is headed for endurance racing, and allegedly the 24 Hours of Le Mans with a variation that engine.

A simple, clean installation of a new engine with almost 3x as much power as stock. The renowned engine already comes with a racing pedigree we can borrow, and there are hundreds of thousands of these engines produced that will be available in junkyards cheaply. What's not to love?

[Mark D]

Exactly. I love the engine, but it's time has really come to an end. It's been out of production for 17 years now, and it's just not worth it.

I'm honestly looking at the Ford 3.5L EcoBoost. It's a compact 60° V6 with 365hp and 420ft-lb. of torque in stock form. It uses the Coyote V8 bolt pattern, so you just need a bell housing adaptor from a GT-40 kit car. There are aftermarket engine controllers, but Ford will be coming out with a Control Pack soon. Meaning there is no screwing around with MegaSquirt, patching together sensors, or worst of all consistently tuning the engine. It's all plug & play because it's a true factory tune with a factory harness.

Other than the intake, intercoolers, & exhaust, all you need to fabricate are motor mounts, and possibly modify the oil pan. But the block's mounting points are in almost the same location as the PRV, and the oil pan may actually fit fine since the engine doesn't need to be moved forward to accommodate length like we've seen with longer engines (3 sequential pistons with the V6 unlike 4 on a V8, or 6 on the I6 2JZ). No chopping of the frame so we remain safe in a crash. No modifying transmission mounts or shifter linkage, it all remains stock meaning less work to do. The only internal work we need done is the Input Shaft on the UN-369. And if that's not enough, there are people on YouTube tuning this same engine with no internal modifications, and they're knocking on 600hp. Even in stock form, the new Raptor version is estimated to be between 450-500hp on this same little V6. Best of all, Ford has designated this same engine for use in the new Ford GT, which is headed for endurance racing, and allegedly the 24 Hours of Le Mans with a variation that engine.

A simple, clean installation of a new engine with almost 3x as much power as stock. The renowned engine already comes with a racing pedigree we can borrow, and there are hundreds of thousands of these engines produced that will be available in junkyards cheaply. What's not to love?

http://dmctalk.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=34257&d=1431026885

[Kane]

It doesn't help increase prices on this car when every time one of the DMC franchises list one at $45,000 everyone around here scoffs at how they are asking for way too much.

[refugeefromcalif]

It doesn't help increase prices on this car when every time one of the DMC franchises list one at $45,000 everyone around here scoffs at how they are asking for way too much.

$45K is definitely not a high price compared to some that they have for sale... (http://delorean.com/car/16870/)

And DMCFlorida stopped advertising thier prices.

George

[Hokie]

It doesn't help increase prices on this car when every time one of the DMC franchises list one at $45,000 everyone around here scoffs at how they are asking for way too much.

+1 on that. Owners don't set the value of a D. Buyers do that. But D owners are very opinionated on the subject. That's why I never discuss what I paid for the car, and only tell non-owners what it would take to buy it from me. When asked. And the price is high. Cause the car is not for sale. I need to get one of those signs I once saw in a classic car museum: "Not for Sale, Ask for Details."

[drdelorean]

http://www.classiccarsforsale.co.uk/news/classic-car-news/1505/values-of-80s-classic-car-icons-triple-since-2010/

Interesting read, wonder what made those cars triple and some not...

[John U]

Its a Ferrari. Even the lowly 308 is worth way more than it should be!
I was looking at testarossas a couple years ago. You could get them for under $50,000 but it was the cost of the parts that scared me off....that was stupid :(

[drdelorean]

I totally agree on the testarossa, but I thought it was interesting to read how cars like the Lancia Integrales, Ford Escort RS2000 and Peugeot 205GTI also tripled in value. Either way seems like the trend right now may be that 80's poster wall cars are rising...

[OverlandMan]

Its a Ferrari. Even the lowly 308 is worth way more than it should be!
I was looking at testarossas a couple years ago. You could get them for under $50,000 but it was the cost of the parts that scared me off....that was stupid :(

Tread lightly there re the 308 8). As an owner I'm hoping it becomes a 6-figure car in the next few years.

I could have purchased a couple of different TRs last fall for under $80k. The same cars now are $125-140k. :wow:

[John U]

Hey hey now....I have always loved the 308 and 328....but like many cars I think they are overpriced.
There are many cars that I missed the boat on from the 80s. 911, M3 are a couple...look at the price of those!

[OverlandMan]

Hey hey now....I have always loved the 308 and 328....but like many cars I think they are overpriced.
There are many cars that I missed the boat on from the 80s. 911, M3 are a couple...look at the price of those!

You could say that about so many vehicles on the collector market right now. Sans a few exceptions, anything with a Ferrari badge on it is going to bring top dollar. F-cars are like blue chip stocks on steroids.

The v-8 mid-engine F-car to get in right now is the 348 & 355. Service can be on the expensive side. Plastic delamination on interior components can also be a problem. I'm looking for a non-red 348tb with a recent engine-out full service. Bottom line is these cars can be had from $35-$60k depending on the car.

The 360s and 430s really marked the beginning of "mass-produced" Ferraris (if there is such a thing). They just aren't as special (ie: like a Lamborghini Gallardo).

[drdelorean]

Another interesting article about the DMC and its market value (at the bottom) Not everything is relevant, but a nice read in the british point of view.

[drdelorean]

Another interesting article about the DMC and its market value (at the bottom) Not everything is relevant, but a nice read in the british point of view.

Aaaaand heres the link :P

http://www.classicandperformancecar.com/dmc/delorean/4607/delorean-dmc-12-market-watch

[andyd]

This is not at all accurate, in my opinion.

>> Generally cars above £20,000 are lower-mileage timewarp examples,

Not so. Timewarp examples are here-->

http://www.deloreanclub.uk/delorean-for-sale-vin-7199.html

Sold for £57,120. I make that $89k


>>with decent roadable examples from £10,000 and up.


Absolutely not!! There has not been a roadworth D at £10,000 for many years!


>> But the rarest DMC-12 of all would be a high-mileage example – no-one’s ever seen one…

And I think we here all know that that is simply not the case. Some may even say that the best ones tend to be the higher milage cars, which have been used and maintained.

I think the British perspective is that over the last 5 years, DeLoreans have been little bettered in terms of their increase in market values. Agreed, not going up at the rate of a 911, but certainly much better than most.

Have a look here -->
http://www.deloreanclub.uk/deloreans-for-sale.html

I now think you would struggle to get a roadworthy MOT'd car for less than £25k. A good one will be rather more.

And if you click the link in the article for examples, the BHCC cars listed rather illustrate my point and contradict the article!! Add on to that price (which we see in GBP) shipping to the UK, and sorting out these usually rather rough cars, and getting them registered and legal, and UK tax paid...

Just my opinion, of course... Seems like pretty poorly researched article tho.

Andy

[drdelorean]

I agree with you, I was hesitant to say anything as I know little to nothing about the DMC market in the UK, the numbers looked a little off to me as well. But on the bright side the article showed that the market and value for the car is going in a positive direction :thumbup2: