Rear lights question

[robvanderveer]

As i was fixing a dead brake light, i noticed the rear lights dim with the brakes applied. Is this normal? i can't figure out the schematic on the tail boards. The stop lights seem to have three connections to it. Perhaps somebody can explain this to me.

[PJ Grady Inc.]

As i was fixing a dead brake light, i noticed the rear lights dim with the brakes applied. Is this normal? i can't figure out the schematic on the tail boards. The stop lights seem to have three connections to it. Perhaps somebody can explain this to me.

Yes as delivered from the factory the tail light boards were prone to various malfunctions which have only gotten worse with time and exposure to he elements. Twenty four years ago we introduced all new design boards and have sold over a thousand of them since with less than a one percent failure rate. We have actually improved them three times since then as production techniques and technologies have evolved so they're even better now!

That is why our board remains the only one with a lifetime warranty to the original purchaser. Although recently another cheaper board option has surfaced my examination leads me to conclude they do not carry the same warranty! You can check out our boards improved features at pjgrady.com if you want to know more. BTW our website has changed and we will be adding info on many more unique and improved products as time permits.

[robvanderveer]

Yes as delivered from the factory the tail light boards were prone to various malfunctions which have only gotten worse with time and exposure to he elements. Twenty four years ago we introduced all new design boards and have sold over a thousand of them since with less than a one percent failure rate. We have actually improved them three times since then as production techniques and technologies have evolved so they're even better now!

That is why our board remains the only one with a lifetime warranty to the original purchaser. Although recently another cheaper board option has surfaced my examination leads me to conclude they do not carry the same warranty! You can check out our boards improved features at pjgrady.com if you want to know more. BTW our website has changed and we will be adding info on many more unique and improved products as time permits.

That is a great sales pitch but doesn't really answer my question. Clearly the board was designed to 'mute' the back light when the stop lights are engaged. My question is how this is supposed to work.

[DMCMW Dave]

That is a great sales pitch but doesn't really answer my question. Clearly the board was designed to 'mute' the back light when the stop lights are engaged. My question is how this is supposed to work.

No, it wasn't. They are 4 separate circuits with a common ground. The real oddity is that one of the grounds is carried via the two rivets to the socket of a bulb which means that you can lose ground to only part of the board.

[robvanderveer]

Ok, thanks.

Still, i find it very strange that both the left and right rear lights dim when i press the brakes (engine not running)

[DMCMW Dave]

Ok, thanks.

Still, i find it very strange that both the left and right rear lights dim when i press the brakes (engine not running)

Clean your grounds. And fix or replace the boards.

[robvanderveer]

I was already planning on a cleanup. That why i asked how it is supposed to work. I'm perfectly aware that replacement boards are available. No need to push it in my face when asking a perfectly normal question about the workings.

[Tillsy]

Rob I'm confused what you mean by the "back" light being muted/dimmed?

There are three brake lights on each side:

1. The centre one is nothing more than a park light, it is on at all times along with the marker lights (sides and front) when the headlight switch is in its first position. They don't dim, mute, flash, or do anything other than be on at all times.

2. The two brake lights either side are your actual brake lights - illuminating when the brakes are on.

Unlike modern cars, there are no 1157 dual filament bulbs or fancy circuitry doing any kind of dimming/brightening - each bulb has a specific purpose and is either on or off - centre on at all times (when light circuit is active that is) and the two either side when the brakes are on.

If what you are saying is the centre brake/park/marker light on each side dims when the two brake lights either side of it come on then I'm guessing flat battery or bad grounds as Dave has already suggested?

There was a change dictating whether the two brake lights each side work when the engine is off - not sure which VIN that started with. We all have a spare connector hanging on a green wire in our footwell that still provides the original functionality (no brake light when not running).

Let me know if I'm completely off track as I'm not sure I properly understand what you're saying?

[robvanderveer]

Yes, with back lights i mean the middle filament between the 2 stop lights. i notice no differences in the head lights or side markers. tricky to check though if on your own.

Thank you very much for your detailed explanation, i will investigate ground issues in the car (most likely near the fuse box) as i've completely measured, cleaned and isolated the boards and connectors.

[PJ Grady Inc.]

That is a great sales pitch but doesn't really answer my question. Clearly the board was designed to 'mute' the back light when the stop lights are engaged. My question is how this is supposed to work.

Actually I answered the question! The problem is the design of the board not the wiring. The tail lights are powered by one green/purple wire per board that happens to go to two (one unused) connectors.
My guess is the engineers intended to utilize a duel filament circuit originally but there was a production change in the harness but not the board hence the extra terminal contact.
If you'll notice the extra terminal has no wire but thanks for reminding me how easy it would be for us to offer a dual filament option. The common ground combined with poor contacts in the design is why the running lights (as well as other lighting maladies) experience a voltage drop and therefore dim when the brakes are applied.
The problem is not by design but rather by poor design. I'm simply saying the the problem would not exist if you used a better board. The other option is the one you're pursuing by attempting to solder or screw your way back to a functional board.
My experience after 33 years in the business is that your repair's will be temporary and inferior to a new replacement board at best. The other possibility is corroded connections at the harness connector on either end...particularly the ground connection.
Sorry for the sales pitch! If you would like a more technical explanation the engineer who designed the newer boards happens to be here at the moment working on another project.

[robvanderveer]

Sorry for snapping at you, PJG. Thanks for your response. i'm very happy with the providers, you do great work for the community. but as i'm Dutch, i get most of my stuff at DMCEu.

[PJ Grady Inc.]

[QUOTE=PJ Grady Inc.;158405]Actually I answered the question! The problem is the design of the board not the wiring. The tail lights are powered by one green/purple wire per board that happens to go to two (one unused) connectors.
My guess is the engineers intended to utilize a duel filament circuit originally but there was a production change in the harness but not the board hence the extra terminal contact.
If you'll notice the extra terminal has no wire but thanks for reminding me how easy it would be for us to offer a dual filament option. The common ground combined with poor contacts in the design is why the running lights (as well as other lighting maladies) experience a voltage drop and therefore dim when the brakes are applied.
The problem is not by design but rather by poor design. I'm simply saying the the problem would not exist if you used a better board. The other option is the one you're pursuing by attempting to solder or screw your way back to a functional board.
My experience after 33 years in the business is that your repair's will be temporary and inferior to a new replacement board at best. The other possibility is corroded connections at the harness connector on either end...particularly the ground connection.
Sorry for the sales pitch! If you would like a more technical explanation the engineer who designed the newer boards happens to be here at the moment working on another project.

[Tillsy]

Good point about the headlights, rules out power source.

Bear in mind when you head back to the fuses there are two separate ones for those lights - fuse 2 for all the markers, parks, etc on the left side of the car and everything for the right side goes through fuse 8 (could be the other way around, going from memory). The other side of those fuses is joined together and pulls its feed directly from the headlight switch (hence the melting that occurs there is not corrected), so that's where the commonality forms in that circuit.

That being said, if the problem was external to the tail light circuit boards I would have expected you to see issues with your side marker lights too...?

[Tillsy]

Ooooooh, interesting point... I have Grady boards, so sounds like I am immune to this issue and hence my results being a little skewed.

That at least entirely narrows down your problem to the circuit boards, which is what I was getting at in my last post anyway otherwise you'd be seeing this effect elsewhere such as side markers :)

[David T]

The OEM boards were not designed to last 30 years. Probably not even 10. A little moisture and the connections corrode. A little shrinkage and the rivets loosen. The original boards can be fixed up with a lot of work. The new boards are a nice upgrade. The answer to the OP's question, NO the lights are not supposed to dim. Because of all of the connections there are a lot of ways the boards can fail. You may also find bulbs were replaced with the wrong type or forced in the wrong way which adds to the problems.

[PJ Grady Inc.]

Sorry for snapping at you, PJG. Thanks for your response. i'm very happy with the providers, you do great work for the community. but as i'm Dutch, i get most of my stuff at DMCEu.

That's perfectly fine and Ed Eding is a great guy! The DMCH board appears to be a decent board too! It just lacks many of the features, track record. and warranty that ours has! Either board should be a vast improvement over stock and Ed has access to either one I would think.

[Domi]

[QUOTE=PJ Grady Inc.;158405
If you'll notice the extra terminal has no wire but thanks for reminding me how easy it would be for us to offer a dual filament option.[/QUOTE]

It would be nice if you could offer a new board which allow to light all 3 bulbs for the red light including dual filament.
The result would be better in the dark, almost like a rear Trans-Am tail light :biggrin:

[David T]

It would be nice if you could offer a new board which allow to light all 3 bulbs for the red light including dual filament.
The result would be better in the dark, almost like a rear Trans-Am tail light :biggrin:

How about flashing, sequential turn lights? One of the best things you can do (besides having good reliable taillight boards) is to add a third brake light.

[refugeefromcalif]

How about flashing, sequential turn lights?
That's what I loved when I had my 1970 Ford T'Bird. :)
Doing the same thing on my DeLorean would be great!

George

[robvanderveer]

There are countries in the world where they have rules about what you can do to your lighting.

[Shep]

There are countries in the world where they have rules about what you can do to your lighting.That's why it would be a variant option, not the only one! :)

(Although what becomes of the amber side light if the reds are sequential? :question: )

[refugeefromcalif]

(Although what becomes of the amber side light if the reds are sequential? :question: )

Keep as Hazard lights?

George

[Shep]

Keep as Hazard lights?

GeorgeSame circuit? :confused:

[robvanderveer]

at least i now know they are called 'running lights'. thanks guys, learn a new thing every day

[refugeefromcalif]

As a kid I was told, Running lights are front and rear, Marker lights are on the sides.?? :question:
Different areas and even generations seem to have different names.

@Shep, it was just a thought. Someone smarter then me would have to figure out the circuit(s).

George

[Shep]

As a kid I was told, Running lights are front and rear, Marker lights are on the sides.?? :question:"Running lights" and "marker lights" are synonyms ;)

[Trstno1]

Yes as delivered from the factory the tail light boards were prone to various malfunctions which have only gotten worse with time and exposure to he elements. Twenty four years ago we introduced all new design boards and have sold over a thousand of them since with less than a one percent failure rate. We have actually improved them three times since then as production techniques and technologies have evolved so they're even better now!

That is why our board remains the only one with a lifetime warranty to the original purchaser. Although recently another cheaper board option has surfaced my examination leads me to conclude they do not carry the same warranty! You can check out our boards improved features at pjgrady.com if you want to know more. BTW our website has changed and we will be adding info on many more unique and improved products as time permits.

What's the difference between the two different boards you sell? It looks like one set is twice the coat of the other.

[PJ Grady Inc.]

What's the difference between the two different boards you sell? It looks like one set is twice the coat of the other.
You had to go there didn't you ;) ! I don't want to publicly tear down another venders product but it's only fair that I point out differences in quality given the price differential. Interestingly their price advantage drops from $55 less a pair to only $15 on a single board. What does that tell you? Someone wants my boards off the market. But wait there's more!

My supplier could better explain the technical differences but hasn't seen the other board yet so I'll give you my observations.

1) Our board has a sealed full length and width heavy foil base for current transfer whereas the other one has four thin strips to transfer current (not much foil should the surface coating become compromised and it already shows heat damage from their soldering process).

2) The exposed contacts for the harness plug are 24 CARATE GOLD on ours verses uncoated tin on thiers just like the original (a major weak point).

3) The sockets on our board are Cadmium plated verses Zinc, the plungers are stronger and straighter, and the housings have a more precisely stamped appearance to the naked eye.

4) The solder joint from the sockets to the boards are thru plated, heavier, cleaner, and show no signs of heat damage on the board face. Additionally their contact legs are trimmed after soldering which stress's the connection and not the best way to go.

5) Our board is TWENTY PERCENT HEAVIER than theirs (while both are admittedly quite light at 5 verses 4 oz's each) and stronger using the unscientific "twist test". They are the same thickness so that's not where the extra weight is. The extra tin and solder and a bit of gold (which transfers the current) probably account for the weight difference. The stamping of our board is far more precise, the finish is smoother and the look of superior quality is obvious to even the untrained eye.

6) We have a LIFETIME WARRANTY (to the original purchaser) verses I don't know but most of their products carry a thirty day warranty. If they have a lifetime warranty I'll sell my stock cheap and stop making them because mine cost me too much to sell at their price.

Other than that there is no difference at all except the price! I mean what could be different about a simple circuit board. It's like cars...some people drive Chevy's and some drive Porsche's. The catch is I can't sell Porsche's for a Chevy price but then neither can anyone else. If people don't want what i'm selling I'll just stop selling them. It's happened before. Certain people demand the cheapest price but I won't sacrifice quality to get there. So at least you all have a choice for now. People have asked me to remake a lot of things I used to (pickup hoses, angle drives, etc.) but I got shot down by a cheaper part at a cheaper price. I can't do it on the cheap and most owners don't know the difference until they have to buy it again and again.
Sorry for the long post but I had to get it out there. I'm tired of being shot down for turning out a quality product. No mad at anyone....just tired!

Rob Grady,
P.J.Grady Inc.

[PJ Grady Inc.]

What's the difference between the two different boards you sell? It looks like one set is twice the coat of the other.

Small correction here. I don't sell "two different boards". I only sell the more expensive ones for the aformentioned reasons. But I can tell you where to get the cheap ones if you'd prefer. They become more expensive when you need to replace them again however! t's strange how expensive cheap parts really are!!!!!

Rob Grady

[Trstno1]

Small correction here. I don't sell "two different boards". I only sell the more expensive ones for the aformentioned reasons. But I can tell you where to get the cheap ones if you'd prefer. They become more expensive when you need to replace them again however! t's strange how expensive cheap parts really are!!!!!

Rob Grady

Well, you have sold me!! I'll be making an order for a pair of boards here soon😀

[PJ Grady Inc.]

Well, you have sold me!! I'll be making an order for a pair of boards here soon

That's great..Thank you!

Rob

[Domi]

I bought your board a few month ago from Josh B.
I always wanted yours, because the PCB is very good quality.
Don't installed them yet, but I'm sure I'll be very satisfied with them.

[Delorean Industries]

You know how picky I am on quality domi. Plus I always call out junk when I see it. Glad to continue supporting and marketing this product at dpi.

[ssdelorean]

You had to go there didn't you ;) ! I don't want to publicly tear down another venders product but it's only fair that I point out differences in quality given the price differential. Interestingly their price advantage drops from $55 less a pair to only $15 on a single board. What does that tell you? Someone wants my boards off the market. But wait there's more!

My supplier could better explain the technical differences but hasn't seen the other board yet so I'll give you my observations.

1) Our board has a sealed full length and width heavy foil base for current transfer whereas the other one has four thin strips to transfer current (not much foil should the surface coating become compromised and it already shows heat damage from their soldering process).

2) The exposed contacts for the harness plug are 24 CARATE GOLD on ours verses uncoated tin on thiers just like the original (a major weak point).

3) The sockets on our board are Cadmium plated verses Zinc, the plungers are stronger and straighter, and the housings have a more precisely stamped appearance to the naked eye.

4) The solder joint from the sockets to the boards are thru plated, heavier, cleaner, and show no signs of heat damage on the board face. Additionally their contact legs are trimmed after soldering which stress's the connection and not the best way to go.

5) Our board is TWENTY PERCENT HEAVIER than theirs (while both are admittedly quite light at 5 verses 4 oz's each) and stronger using the unscientific "twist test". They are the same thickness so that's not where the extra weight is. The extra tin and solder and a bit of gold (which transfers the current) probably account for the weight difference. The stamping of our board is far more precise, the finish is smoother and the look of superior quality is obvious to even the untrained eye.

6) We have a LIFETIME WARRANTY (to the original purchaser) verses I don't know but most of their products carry a thirty day warranty. If they have a lifetime warranty I'll sell my stock cheap and stop making them because mine cost me too much to sell at their price.

Other than that there is no difference at all except the price! I mean what could be different about a simple circuit board. It's like cars...some people drive Chevy's and some drive Porsche's. The catch is I can't sell Porsche's for a Chevy price but then neither can anyone else. If people don't want what i'm selling I'll just stop selling them. It's happened before. Certain people demand the cheapest price but I won't sacrifice quality to get there. So at least you all have a choice for now. People have asked me to remake a lot of things I used to (pickup hoses, angle drives, etc.) but I got shot down by a cheaper part at a cheaper price. I can't do it on the cheap and most owners don't know the difference until they have to buy it again and again.
Sorry for the long post but I had to get it out there. I'm tired of being shot down for turning out a quality product. No mad at anyone....just tired!

Rob Grady,
P.J.Grady Inc.

I didn't have my car back when you were making the hard core angle drives. If I did I would have one. Thanks again to Martin G. in the UK for a great (now defunct) product. Which reminds me, I need to update my signature to add on more miles.

Too may today fall into the price point trap. Don't get me wrong, love a lower price point. But I care more about a high quality product that's gonna last a long time. By the time you replace the lower quality price point item again and again, you have the same cost (it not more) into the item if you would have sprung for the higher quality, longer lasting & more expensive item.

[PJ Grady Inc.]

I didn't have my car back when you were making the hard core angle drives. If I did I would have one. Thanks again to Martin G. in the UK for a great (now defunct) product. Which reminds me, I need to update my signature to add on more miles.

Too may today fall into the price point trap. Don't get me wrong, love a lower price point. But I care more about a high quality product that's gonna last a long time. By the time you replace the lower quality price point item again and again, you have the same cost (it not more) into the item if you would have sprung for the higher quality, longer lasting & more expensive item.

I hear you brother! Long time no see!