Unable to shift - 1st and 2nd gear

[JohnZ]

All right, as I was reporting on my thread about VIN 3305, lately I have been using the car much more than ever, and after 7 years of hibernation little by little I get some troubles! :)

I am currently unable to shift in first and second gear. I shift smoothly in reverse, third, fourth and fifth gear but even with the car turned off first and second seem out of order.

I whatched Martin's video about gearshift linkage and I'm starting to suspect that the crossgate cable went out of calibration. I'm having a debate with my fellow oversea friend Alexakos about what can cause such issue, but I think that the more I hear from you the better I can pinpoint the malfunction!

Inspired by the wonderful video made by mr. Martin I took a picture of my shifter at rest (neutral). Looks like its a bit on the left:

3115731158

[David T]

All right, as I was reporting on my thread about VIN 3305, lately I have been using the car much more than ever, and after 7 years of hibernation little by little I get some troubles! :)

I am currently unable to shift in first and second gear. I shift smoothly in reverse, third, fourth and fifth gear but even with the car turned off first and second seem out of order.

I whatched Martin's video about gearshift linkage and I'm starting to suspect that the crossgate cable went out of calibration. I'm having a debate with my fellow oversea friend Alexakos about what can cause such issue, but I think that the more I hear from you the better I can pinpoint the malfunction!

Inspired by the wonderful video made by mr. Martin I took a picture of my shifter at rest (neutral). Looks like its a bit on the left:

3115731158

If you can get reverse the cross gate adjustment is at least close, close enough that 1 and 2 should work. Can't hurt to check it. The other possibilities include a worn clutch and a bent pin on the 1-2 shifter rail. Check the oil level in the transaxle.

[JohnZ]

If you can get reverse the cross gate adjustment is at least close, close enough that 1 and 2 should work.

In fact this is an oddity

[DMCMW Dave]

In fact this is an oddity

Agreed. The cable adjustment is such that in one direction you will lose 5th gear, AND be able to get reverse without the interlock (lifting the handle). In the other direction you will lose reverse, and possible 1 and 2 if the adjustment is way off.

If you have reverse, not 1 and 2, but have 3 and 4 and 5, the problem is internal. I'd at least pull off the rear cover in the car so see what's going on, but if something has broken or stripped in the internal linkage it's going to have to come out of the car and be taken apart.

[ALEXAKOS]

Agreed. The cable adjustment is such that in one direction you will lose 5th gear, AND be able to get reverse without the interlock (lifting the handle). In the other direction you will lose reverse, and possible 1 and 2 if the adjustment is way off.

If you have reverse, not 1 and 2, but have 3 and 4 and 5, the problem is internal. I'd at least pull off the rear cover in the car so see what's going on, but if something has broken or stripped in the internal linkage it's going to have to come out of the car and be taken apart.

+1
That was unfortunately also my speculation.

Cable issue does not just "loose" 1&2 gears from a long drive. Even if an external cable part broke or came loose, that would create issues firstly on the 5th and reverse gears if not all.

My first bet is the 2nd gear roll pin
http://i821.photobucket.com/albums/zz135/alex-akos/delo%20resto/DC21BE74-DF15-4DAE-959B-59A3598E5A32_zpsyhko6twk.jpg (http://s821.photobucket.com/user/alex-akos/media/delo%20resto/DC21BE74-DF15-4DAE-959B-59A3598E5A32_zpsyhko6twk.jpg.html)
That would be the middle one in this image.


That tends to bend and brake.

[JohnZ]

Ok thanks guys, I admit I get shivers down my spine when I think about removing the whole transmission! :8ball:

Anyway a man's gotta do what a man's gotta do, so I don't want to waste time and I think we'll try that up as soon as we can. Better be sure about it, though. Is there any test I can do to be absolutely certain of the real issue?? At first we are going to try that linkage thing, even though with the functioning reverse it may sound useless.

But the question is: what's the link between the second gear roll pin (that I knew was prone to fail) and the first gear? I mean... how I did broke BOTH gears at the same time? :thinkin:

[DMCMW Dave]

Ok thanks guys, I admit I get shivers down my spine when I think about removing the whole transmission! :8ball:

Anyway a man's gotta do what a man's gotta do, so I don't want to waste time and I think we'll try that up as soon as we can. Better be sure about it, though. Is there any test I can do to be absolutely certain of the real issue?? At first we are going to try that linkage thing, even though with the functioning reverse it may sound useless.

But the question is: what's the link between the second gear roll pin (that I knew was prone to fail) and the first gear? I mean... how I did broke BOTH gears at the same time? :thinkin:

1 and 2 are the same sliding gear and actuator. The usual failure is the rollpin that pushes the sliding hear into second gear, but there is a second pin that pushes it in into first.

You can remove the rear cover IN the car, and move the actuators by hand (there are 4 of them: R, 1-2, 3-4, 5) with 5th being visible completely with the rear housing off. If you move the 1-2 actuator and nothing happens, then you have damaged BOTH roll pins on the 1-2 shaft and the slider is not moving. I've never seen that happen but it's about all that would explain the problem you are seeing. In your photo the one next to the spring is the one that shears. To completely fail the large one to the right in your photo would be sheared. Hard to imagine.

[David T]

1 and 2 are the same sliding gear and actuator. The usual failure is the rollpin that pushes the sliding hear into second gear, but there is a second pin that pushes it in into first.

You can remove the rear cover IN the car, and move the actuators by hand (there are 4 of them: R, 1-2, 3-4, 5) with 5th being visible completely with the rear housing off. If you move the 1-2 actuator and nothing happens, then you have damaged BOTH roll pins on the 1-2 shaft and the slider is not moving. I've never seen that happen but it's about all that would explain the problem you are seeing. In your photo the one next to the spring is the one that shears. To completely fail the large one to the right in your photo would be sheared. Hard to imagine.

Can also be other things in combination like a loose end nut, a bent shifter fork, broken detent springs, etc. You can never know for sure exactly what you will find until you crack it open. Anyway, if you have done all of the external on car checks and still are having trouble, the trans is coming out. BTW, if you decide you want to remove the end cover, before you take it out make sure you drain the oil out FIRST! And before you remove the drain plug take the level plug out BEFORE the drain plug. If you can't get the level plug out DON'T drain the oil out.

[ALEXAKOS]

That's right David. Let me explain that by level plug you mean the fill plug sitting almost half way up on the tyranny on the passenger side.

[JohnZ]

Ok I thank you all. By the way, I don't understand what Dave means with "remove the rear cover in the car"... what do you exactly mean?

5th gear I know it is in front of the tranny (I whatched an interesting video showing gear shifting performed by hands on a Renault Un-1 gearbox)... but I think there is not a way to determine the wear of the roll pins with out taking out the sucker, isn't it?

:)

[David T]

Ok I thank you all. By the way, I don't understand what Dave means with "remove the rear cover in the car"... what do you exactly mean?

5th gear I know it is in front of the tranny (I whatched an interesting video showing gear shifting performed by hands on a Renault Un-1 gearbox)... but I think there is not a way to determine the wear of the roll pins with out taking out the sucker, isn't it?

:)

The rear cover is actually towards the front of the car on the end of the transmission. It can be removed with the transmission in the car but the only things you can really check with it off is if you can get the shifter rails in and out of each gear and you can check if the end nuts are tight. You are correct, you cannot verify the condition of the roll pins in the shifter rails until you disassemble the transmission. Those pins don't wear so much as bend or break and once you get to them it will be obvious if they are bad. The pins can be made stronger by sticking smaller ones inside the big ones but they only bend/break because you forced shifts on a bad clutch. Keep the clutch and the hydraulics in good shape and the pins will be fine.

[DMCMW Dave]

Ok I thank you all. By the way, I don't understand what Dave means with "remove the rear cover in the car"... what do you exactly mean?

5th gear I know it is in front of the tranny (I whatched an interesting video showing gear shifting performed by hands on a Renault Un-1 gearbox)... but I think there is not a way to determine the wear of the roll pins with out taking out the sucker, isn't it?

:)

Lift up the car
Disconnnect the forward trans mounts so the trans can hang down a bit
Take off all the bolts holding the cover on. Cover is part ID54 on parts manual page 4-1-1
Check parts, makes sure the large nuts are tight.
You will need the new gasket #57

[JohnZ]

Ok now I understand! You mean with the tranny IN the car! :)

Ok now I collected some trials to do... let's hope for the best! :nervous:

[PJ Grady Inc.]

Agreed. The cable adjustment is such that in one direction you will lose 5th gear, AND be able to get reverse without the interlock (lifting the handle). In the other direction you will lose reverse, and possible 1 and 2 if the adjustment is way off.

If you have reverse, not 1 and 2, but have 3 and 4 and 5, the problem is internal. I'd at least pull off the rear cover in the car so see what's going on, but if something has broken or stripped in the internal linkage it's going to have to come out of the car and be taken apart.

From the picture John took I would say the crossgate pin is too close to the left portion of the cutout which will make 1st & 2nd inop. while still allowing reverse to engage. Try shifting into 1st by lifting up as if going into reverse but ease it forwaard just as it clears the edge. Do this with the engine off and then start it and see if you have 1st gear. If you do then adjust the crossgate cable nuts back torwards the rear uf the car until the pin is centered in the lower (forward gear) portion of the cutout. It definetly looks offcenter in the picture.

Rob Grady,
P.J.Grady Inc.

[DMCMW Dave]

I see that one -if that's the issue, he's going past 1-2 in the gate but it would be there if he lifted and moved it **slightly** to the left left and then went for 1-2.

[PJ Grady Inc.]

I see that one -if that's the issue, he's going past 1-2 in the gate but it would be there if he lifted and moved it **slightly** to the left left and then went for 1-2.

Yup! Seen it quite a bit over the years. I hope you and Julie are busy over there in the heartland! Tell her I said hello if you think of it!

[JohnZ]

Thanks Rob I appreciate your inputs!

Now this. I'm not really understanding a damn thing anymore now... :bang: I went to the car this morning to check out Grady's method and it shifted perfectly without lifting the stick. It shifted lifting the stick too. It shifted everytime. What the hell is going on?:boxface:

I swear it was definitely impossible to put on 1st and 2nd, and now I find myself shifting to 1 and 2 smoothly with out doing anything.. that is nonsense. But I think tonight the issue will be there once again, anyway what's best from this morning's trial is that Grady's method works.

What's up now? Simple crossgate cable adjustment?

:) :)

[Bitsyncmaster]

What's up now? Simple crossgate cable adjustment?

:) :)

I adjusted my crossgate cable with the shifter plate off so I could look at the centering and get it in the center.

[ALEXAKOS]

If your tranny now shifts... It has to do with heat. take if for a drive until engine is heated up and see if it shifts. Could be a clutch issue. Smaller gears are harder to shift in and need more clutch support.


When your D did not shift.. Did you also try I with the engine off r only running?

[JohnZ]

If your tranny now shifts... It has to do with heat. take if for a drive until engine is heated up and see if it shifts. Could be a clutch issue. Smaller gears are harder to shift in and need more clutch support.


When your D did not shift.. Did you also try I with the engine off r only running?

Well I'll try to be precise: this problem came up after a 30 minutes drive. Actually after this drive I shut the car off because I was arrived, but after about 4 hours I took the car again for another 30 minutes drive and I started to have this issue. I had driven about 90 miles in 2 days without this issue.

Then at home for 2 days I tried to shift to 1 and 2 (engine running, engine shut off, engine cold after night, late in the evening, in the morning) but there was no way to engage 1st and 2nd.

Suddendly this morning everything was smooth and clear, perfect shifting in all gears with both the engine running or cold. Maybe it has something to do with "ice", I thought. But now that it's midday I tried that once again and everything was allright. :ehh:

Now tonight I plan to use the car for a 12 miles trip that I have to do... I'll use this as a test!

:)

Delorean works in mysterious ways!

:thankyou:

edit: to integrate the diagnosis I've never had grinding gears these days, the 1st and 2nd just don't go in... it is not that they grind!

[ALEXAKOS]

Okay I am clue less.

Work your way up the problem solving.
1 linkage
2 1+2 gear try to move the shaft without removing the cover. Just mess with the lever. As Dave said, four shafts:

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/10/15/ae4d8d5d6d9b50ea4962b00fb36ace13.jpg
It's the four bars in the right

Use external selector. Move left to right slightly pushing in and out for each gear



3 remove tranny for in depth trouble shooting and Cauchy replacement. Have both gaskets at hand.
.

[Nicholas R]

I think it's pretty clear that you need to adjust your crossgate cable so that the roll pin at the shifter is better centered. The "lockout" that forces you to raise the shifter for reverse is not very sophisticated. If you can get into 1st/2nd with the shifter pulled up, it means your cable is adjusted such that the 1st/2nd shifter location is overlapping the hard edge that the roll pin in the shifter hits, to keep you from reverse.

Bottom line, adjust your cable to center the shifter before you start tearing into the transmission.

[JohnZ]

Bottom line, adjust your cable to center the shifter before you start tearing into the transmission.

That is exactly what I'm going to do! Until everything works inside the gearbox I'm gonna leave it there!

:) :)

[PJ Grady Inc.]

That is exactly what I'm going to do! Until everything works inside the gearbox I'm gonna leave it there!

:) :)

It's kinda like when you go to the doctors office because you feel so lousy and you wait there for two hours and by the time they call you in you feel completely better!
If you want the advice of a Delorean doctor adjust the crossgate pin a little closer to the 5th gear side and you'll feel better on your next roadtest.
If not take two aspirins and call me in the morning!
Anybody got series problems out there :) !!!!!

[JohnZ]

It's kinda like when you go to the doctors office because you feel so lousy and you wait there for two hours and by the time they call you in you feel completely better!
If you want the advice of a Delorean doctor adjust the crossgate pin a little closer to the 5th gear side and you'll feel better on your next roadtest.
If not take two aspirins and call me in the morning!
Anybody got series problems out there :) !!!!!

Ah ah you're the best Rob! :Headspin:

Tonight's roadtest was succesfully performed! There you go with the results:

At first the car shifted perfectly with 1st and 2nd, but soon they faded (after about 1 mile and a dozen of shiftings) leaving me with just 3, 4 and 5 gears!

Then I parked the car, and after a couple of hours I was able to engage 1st and 2nd (engine off). I decided to leave it in 1st gear, to get a better start later.

Then same music going back home, I lost the gears after some time, but surprisingly I was able to put the first gear while parking (Thank God! :bigclap: ).

Never had a problem with reverse.

Crossgate cable, here we come! :)

...but still I don't understand why it goes, then it goes not, then it goes, than it goes not..... is it a matter of heat as Alex said? :question: :question:

[ALEXAKOS]

Does your clutch pedal feel any different? Harder or softer when those gears work and not? Does it depress higher or lower at any time? If so, Would you consider bleeding the clutch fluid from the slave cylinder again...

[JohnZ]

Does your clutch pedal feel any different? Harder or softer when those gears work and not? Does it depress higher or lower at any time? If so, Would you consider bleeding the clutch fluid from the slave cylinder again...

Actually it feels pretty normal with every gear, no particular added hardness on 1st and 2nd. Some say (pretty much everyone) that it is hard as hell to push, but I soon got used to it and now it's normal to me!

I think it's common to every delorean by the way... anyway another clutch line bleeding will be performed soon, just to be absolutely sure!

:)

[ALEXAKOS]

No, I mean if it gets softer when the engine is warmer (when gears 1&2 stop engaging)

[JohnZ]

No, I mean if it gets softer when the engine is warmer (when gears 1&2 stop engaging)

To be honest I did not noticed this bit! That probably means that nothing really changes... anyway I'll pay more attention next time!

Oh... and you are not clueless, you are CLUEFUL!

;) ;)

[JohnZ]

Yesterday I had the chance to work under my car's skirt and one thing that I noticed was that the 2 bolts on the linkage were kinda loose. I mean, I was able to unbolt them by hand! Maybe that's the problem?

Too bad I did not have the right spanner (it's a 23, isn't it?) so now I screwed it up completely! :rock_on: The shifter now is totally on the left side, but today I'm going to get the right wrench and see what I can do!

:)

[PJ Grady Inc.]

Yesterday I had the chance to work under my car's skirt and one thing that I noticed was that the 2 bolts on the linkage were kinda loose. I mean, I was able to unbolt them by hand! Maybe that's the problem?

Too bad I did not have the right spanner (it's a 23, isn't it?) so now I screwed it up completely! :rock_on: The shifter now is totally on the left side, but today I'm going to get the right wrench and see what I can do!

:)
Bingo! there's your problem...now get to wrenchin'. 24mm or 1' will do the trick. 23mm won't work.

[ALEXAKOS]

Sounds like an issue that has found a solution! Crossing our fingers this was it:)

[PJ Grady Inc.]

Sounds like an issue that has found a solution! Crossing our fingers this was it:)
Loose adjuster nuts make perfect sense for the inconsistency of the problem but I must admit I've never come across it before so it was an unlikly cause of trouble!

[JohnZ]

Ladies and gentlemen, with the powerful aid of a 24mm wrench, jack and jack stand, a front-fleshlight and lack of fatness... I did it! :) I perfectly adjusted the linkage all by myself, with just a pair of gearstick checks in the middle of the operation (suppose it's luck :D ). I strongly torqued the nuts and now the shifter is perfectly balanced!

Took the car for a quick test drive. Man what a difference! Now 1st and 2nd gear (particularly 2nd) shift like a clock! Everything is much smoother now! I took the car to a "level" in which the gears would have failed, and it did not happened! Always a smooth shifting!

Problem solved I guess! Now I will test it on a longer drive, but I'm pretty sure I can rest assured! :wiggle:

And of course... thanks to all of you, as usual!

happy I am :yoda: :) :)

PS: the tranny will break some day (2nd gear pin and so on), but I rather not to mess with something that works by now!

[ALEXAKOS]

We should all be so lucky! What a weird thing for those two nuts to come loose! I had speculated that but I would also expect all other gears to loose smoothness.

Big nuts!!! Hehehe;)

Interesting. One more troubleshooting card added in the DeLorean library of issues.

[JohnZ]

Interesting. One more troubleshooting card added in the DeLorean library of issues.

I'm proud to be part of the History, then!

:hihi2:

[David T]

I'm proud to be part of the History, then!

:hihi2:

Before you claim complete success you should at least make sure the gear oil is up to the level plug and the C/V boots are good. You should also keep an extra pivot bolt (part # 110183) in the car. Since you found those nuts loose you should look over all of the gearshift linkage and lubricate it.

[JohnZ]

Before you claim complete success you should at least make sure the gear oil is up to the level plug and the C/V boots are good. You should also keep an extra pivot bolt (part # 110183) in the car. Since you found those nuts loose you should look over all of the gearshift linkage and lubricate it.

I planned a full tranny oil refresh within weeks! And I ordered the stronger pivot bolt from Hervey one week ago, along with other stuff (still no news about that order... :confused:)!!

Thanks for the advice of lubricating the linkages, I'll sure give it a go! :)