Broken Y-Pipe Bolt REALLY Has Me Worried

[lsoasey]

I'm getting a little desperate for ideas here... I removed my Y-Pipe a few weeks ago to clean out the VOD and replace some other things "while I was in there". One of the bolts broke off below the level of the bolt hole and I've been making multiple attempts to remove since. I started by carefully trying to drill out the center of the bolt. This was going just fine until the bit broke off inside the bolt. :banghead: I actually got that one out after quite a bit of struggle. I continued drilling with a new bit and then tried an easy out. I realize now that this was big mistake. The easy out also broke off in the bolt, of course. A really expensive "rescue bit" (~$55) that I bought almost immediately shattered when I tired to use it to drill through the easy off.

Now I've been trying to use a dremel tool with a narrow carbide grinding bit to work out the whatever is left of the broken drilling bit(s). I've made some progress with this, but not enough. I'm basically stuck at a point where I can't get an even surface on the top of the bolt to start a clean and centered drilling hole. The top of the bolt is probably around 3/8" below the bolt hole now. I assume at this point that I'm looking at Time-Sert kit to replace the threads, but I've got to somehow get that bolt material out of there.

What are my options? Should I pick up die grinder and air compressor and work with more power? Or, is my only option to completely remove the engine to take it to a machine shop? (Or someone with an EDM...) Am I beyond the point of repair? Time to look for a new engine? Wow... This was WAY more work than I wanted to get myself into.

(I don't think it will help, but I might try to post a couple detail pictures tonight after I get back home...)

[jmettee]

I had a similar issue, broke a bolt, then broke an easy-out in the broken bolt. I ended up getting a carbide drill bit from McMaster-Carr to drill out the easy out. Normal drill bits won't work.

Helicoil or timesert will be your repair assuming the threads get goofed.

[lsoasey]

I had a similar issue, broke a bolt, then broke an easy-out in the broken bolt. I ended up getting a carbide drill bit from McMaster-Carr to drill out the easy out. Normal drill bits won't work.

Helicoil or timesert will be your repair assuming the threads get goofed.

Did you have any trouble getting the carbide drill bit aligned to center? That's my biggest concern right now. The exposed bolt surface in my situation is not flat... The broken bit material is causing a "bump" near the center and my drill bit just wants to slip off center. (handheld drill) In fact, I'm wondering if I need to setup some kind of drill guide to keep it aligned.

[dn010]

Did you have any trouble getting the carbide drill bit aligned to center? That's my biggest concern right now. The exposed bolt surface in my situation is not flat... The broken bit material is causing a "bump" near the center and my drill bit just wants to slip off center. (handheld drill) In fact, I'm wondering if I need to setup some kind of drill guide to keep it aligned.

It has always been my practice, and I've found it most easiest; to use a sharp punch to punch a starting point at the center of the bolt. Then you don't have any wandering bits when drilling. Also if you can heat the aluminum around the bolt when you are using the easy out sometimes helps loosen things up.

[FABombjoy]

I snapped one of those in 2005 and just drilled & tapped the block for the next size up non-metric bolt. This was after wasting 2 weeks of trying to remove it with easy-outs, torches, etc. It was way easier than locally finding an M7 bolt + thread insert, and it's been holding fine since. System was pressure tested before replacing the intake manifold just in case.

IIRC the holes in the y-pipe mounting tabs didn't have to be enlarged.

[lsoasey]

Well.... I wish I would have started with the plan of just drilling out the complete bolt with intent to re-tap the hole. I'll never try an Easy Out for this application again, but that's hindsight now. I would love to have a surface that would be friendly to a sharp punch for bit alignment, but it is not in that shape right now. I can keep trying to grind it flat I suppose, but I might need a different tool to accomplish this. The Dremel tool just doesn't appear to be producing any meaningful difference. (Will a more powerful die grinder help here? Any grinding bit suggestions?)

[Bitsyncmaster]

Well.... I wish I would have started with the plan of just drilling out the complete bolt with intent to re-tap the hole. I'll never try an Easy Out for this application again, but that's hindsight now. I would love to have a surface that would be friendly to a sharp punch for bit alignment, but it is not in that shape right now. I can keep trying to grind it flat I suppose, but I might need a different tool to accomplish this. The Dremel tool just doesn't appear to be producing any meaningful difference. (Will a more powerful die grinder help here? Any grinding bit suggestions?)

So is your Y pipe removed or are you drilling the broken bold through the Y pipe hole?

You will probably find a carbide cutter in you dremal may work better than a stone. Just take your time. Only do a little work then take a break. You will get it removed, just keep at it.

[dn010]

Well, have you tried a steel carving bit or are you just using the carbide with the Dremel?

Unfortunately, using the small diameter easy out tools often result in this situation if the broken stud is corroded in there, instead of it just being screwed in and the head breaks off.


Well.... I wish I would have started with the plan of just drilling out the complete bolt with intent to re-tap the hole. I'll never try an Easy Out for this application again, but that's hindsight now. I would love to have a surface that would be friendly to a sharp punch for bit alignment, but it is not in that shape right now. I can keep trying to grind it flat I suppose, but I might need a different tool to accomplish this. The Dremel tool just doesn't appear to be producing any meaningful difference. (Will a more powerful die grinder help here? Any grinding bit suggestions?)

[Kozmatic]

Get a torch and heat it up....HOT... Then get a very small drill bit and see if you can get at least the slightest divet/hole in the center. Then begin working your way up to larger bits. The heat will soften the bit that's stuck in the bolt.

If you cannot make progress with the bit in the bolt, I'd consider again using heat and small bit all around the broken bit. Kinda drill out around it. The broken bit is likely not below the bottom of the bolt. So you may be able to remove enough of the bolt material around the bit to the point that the bit just comes out.

Again, the heat is the key. Of course be careful and try to not stray into the threaded wall. THat said, either way you go, there's going to be at least some damage. Just try to minimize it. You'll be re-threading the bolt hole anyway. Also be careful of the heated metal....where welding gloves/sleeves just to be safe.

[dn010]

I am not going to say this does not work, but in my experience, the hotter you get the metal you are drilling, the faster your drill bit will melt...


Get a torch and heat it up....HOT... Then get a very small drill bit and see if you can get at least the slightest divet/hole in the center. Then begin working your way up to larger bits. The heat will soften the bit that's stuck in the bolt.

If you cannot make progress with the bit in the bolt, I'd consider again using heat and small bit all around the broken bit. Kinda drill out around it. The broken bit is likely not below the bottom of the bolt. So you may be able to remove enough of the bolt material around the bit to the point that the bit just comes out.

Again, the heat is the key. Of course be careful and try to not stray into the threaded wall. THat said, either way you go, there's going to be at least some damage. Just try to minimize it. You'll be re-threading the bolt hole anyway. Also be careful of the heated metal....where welding gloves/sleeves just to be safe.

[David T]

I am not going to say this does not work, but in my experience, the hotter you get the metal you are drilling, the faster your drill bit will melt...

You can try using a masonary carbide bit. Lowes or Hmoe Depot will have them. Get a few 1/8" and give them a try with some cutting fluid. Don't worry if you wind up off-center. Worst case you tap it, make a plug out of aluminum, thread it, insert it and then cut it off flush. Position your Y pipe to locate the hole, and then drill and tap a new hole through it. If you have a small torch you can heat the broken piece up and then try loosening it with a small centerpunch. That might work. E Z outs are really E Z ins, they are very difficult to get out! I try not to use them, I never had much luck with them. If the bolt is that stuck that it broke off what is the logic of using an E Z out?

[SS Spoiler]

An easy way to get the bit centered is to put the y-pipe back on with the other bolts. Now make/get a bushing
that fits snugly in the y-pipe hole and use it to keep the bit centered.

[lsoasey]

So is your Y pipe removed or are you drilling the broken bold through the Y pipe hole?

Fortunately, the Y Pipe is removed...


Well, have you tried a steel carving bit or are you just using the carbide with the Dremel?

I think I have only tried the carbide grinding bits... I'll have to look for the steel carving bits. Do they have any special name or label?


Get a torch and heat it up....HOT... Then get a very small drill bit and see if you can get at least the slightest divet/hole in the center. Then begin working your way up to larger bits. The heat will soften the bit that's stuck in the bolt.

I haven't tried heat yet, but I'll have to admit that I've been finding mixed reviews in various forums if this technique really helps at all in a aluminum block scenario. I may need to try it, however, if my grinding efforts hit a dead end or show sings of making the situation even worse.


You can try using a masonary carbide bit. Lowes or Hmoe Depot will have them. Get a few 1/8" and give them a try with some cutting fluid. Don't worry if you wind up off-center. Worst case you tap it, make a plug out of aluminum, thread it, insert it and then cut it off flush. Position your Y pipe to locate the hole, and then drill and tap a new hole through it. If you have a small torch you can heat the broken piece up and then try loosening it with a small centerpunch. That might work. E Z outs are really E Z ins, they are very difficult to get out! I try not to use them, I never had much luck with them. If the bolt is that stuck that it broke off what is the logic of using an E Z out?

I haven't thought of trying a masonary carbide bit yet... I feel like by the end of this ordeal I will have used every type of bit made to get this stinking bolt out. :p I also had not thought of making an aluminum plug that would get re-drilled and threaded if my drill out ends up off center. Interesting idea. There's a good chance that I will indeed be off center in the end. I've already found that my grinding efforts have started to round off the edge at the top of the bolt hole. I'm not sure I could accurately find center anymore because of this.

[lsoasey]

Here is an image of the current state of the broken bolt removal effort. (Not sure if enough detail will come through, but I'll try it...) I made a little progress tonight with a narrow Dremel aluminum oxide grinding stone. I wore the stone down to the shank, however, so had to stop.

31783

[DMC5180]

Here is an image of the current state of the broken bolt removal effort. (Not sure if enough detail will come through, but I'll try it...) I made a little progress tonight with a narrow Dremel aluminum oxide grinding stone. I wore the stone down to the shank, however, so had to stop.

http://dmctalk.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=31783&stc=1

Heat would have allowed fairly easy removal early on when you still had an unbroken extractor. I've had to do it a couple times on that very bolt location on friends car and project motor. I used a heat gun with a concentrator tip pointed at the casting bose. From what I see you are doing a remarkably good job at keeping your grinding tip centered.

I recently had to remove a broken drill bit at my work. I had the advantage of it being in a mill though. I used an 1/8" 4 flute Carbide Ball type end mill which slowly chewed through it (turned to dust). I would recommend you make yourself a drill jig that you can bolt in place with the opposite hole location. I did this with a couple broken exhaust studs many years ago. It allowed me to drill straight through the center of the broken stud. You could do the same thing with a Carbide Ball mill mentioned earlier. Btw I used a 1/2" thick steel plate for my drill fixture. Don't push on the bit let it do the work. Your doing a great job all things considered. GOOD LUCK. Btw I would NOT try a Carbide Masonry bit will not it and would likely wonder off track anyway. You need a precision ground bit. This will fit your dremel tool.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-8-SOLID-CARBIDE-BALL-NOSE-END-MILL-NEW-4-FLUTE-1250-STANDARD-LENGTH/161316370830?_trksid=p2047675.c100011.m1850&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%2 6asc%3D27538%26meid%3Df764d4d21d7d40ac8e33dfbbdd53 4f9d%26pid%3D100011%26prg%3D11353%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3 D10%26sd%3D311055690606

[DMCMW Dave]

We typically use the grinding stone you mentioned. They are not really made for this so you will use several.


Sent from phone

[lsoasey]

I recently had to remove a broken drill bit at my work. I had the advantage of it being in a mill though. I used an 1/8" 4 flute Carbide Ball type end mill which slowly chewed through it (turned to dust). I would recommend you make yourself a drill jig that you can bolt in place with the opposite hole location. I did this with a couple broken exhaust studs many years ago. It allowed me to drill straight through the center of the broken stud. You could do the same thing with a Carbide Ball mill mentioned earlier. Btw I used a 1/2" thick steel plate for my drill fixture. Don't push on the bit let it do the work. Your doing a great job all things considered. GOOD LUCK. Btw I would NOT try a Carbide Masonry bit will not it and would likely wonder off track anyway. You need a precision ground bit. This will fit your dremel tool.


I'm staring the think about how to create a drill jig... I don't have welding equipment -- at least not yet. Can you tell me a little more about your setup with the 1/2" steel plate? Did you somehow mount the drill directly to the plate? Or, did this provide more of a guide to align the milling bit through? Perhaps I'll search around on the web for DIY drill jigs...

[DMC5180]

When i made my drill jig plate for exhaust stud drilling. I just too a gasket and marked the 4 hole pattern. I drilled out the 2 holes that are normally unused to the nominal M7 hole. the other 2 were drilled to the size of the bit I intended use in drilling into the stud for E-Z out installation. The plate was about 3" x 3" x 1/2 thick. I mounted it to the head exhaust ports using a couple M7 bolts in the empty stud locations. You can use the same concept with your situation. you can either make a 2 hole version and bolt it in place with the GOOD bolt hole or you could go even bigger and pickup an additional hole from the other Y-pipe connection port.

From the sounds of it though If Dave says what you are doing is the same as they do it at the Shop then I'd keep going with the grinding stones.

[Bitsyncmaster]

Looks like your doing a good job keeping the hole centered. What I did next was to start enlarging the hole with the grinder until you see threads showing. Then I picked out the remaining metal and was able to use a tap to clean it all up. It's back braking work.

[DMC5180]

The broken extractor has to be removed first.

[lsoasey]

Great feedback and suggestions, everyone. I really appreciate the input. This is keeping me sane -- hearing that it is actually possible to get this bolt out and avoid buying a new engine. :)

I've got four of the narrow Dremel aluminum oxide grinding stones on order through Amazon since my previous bit was the only one in stock at the local hardware store.

http://www.dremel.com/en-us/Accessories/Pages/ProductDetail.aspx?pid=8153

I think I'll see how far I can get with these to start with.

DMC5180 -- Thanks for the additional detail on your drill jig setup. This sounds much more doable than the "DIY drill press" that I was trying to imagine. I'll give something like this a try if the grinding stones don't cut it. BTW, I think I was able to grind out and past the broken extractor with the first stone that I used. It is a little hard to be sure, however. The grinding stone sort of polishes everything in there and all the surfaces are more continuous and flush with respect to each other.

[PJ Grady Inc.]

Great feedback and suggestions, everyone. I really appreciate the input. This is keeping me sane -- hearing that it is actually possible to get this bolt out and avoid buying a new engine. :)

I've got four of the narrow Dremel aluminum oxide grinding stones on order through Amazon since my previous bit was the only one in stock at the local hardware store.

http://www.dremel.com/en-us/Accessories/Pages/ProductDetail.aspx?pid=8153

I think I'll see how far I can get with these to start with.

DMC5180 -- Thanks for the additional detail on your drill jig setup. This sounds much more doable than the "DIY drill press" that I was trying to imagine. I'll give something like this a try if the grinding stones don't cut it. BTW, I think I was able to grind out and past the broken extractor with the first stone that I used. It is a little hard to be sure, however. The grinding stone sort of polishes everything in there and all the surfaces are more continuous and flush with respect to each other.

I agree the drill jig is a good idea but I think your Dremel grinding stones are a little wimpy for this job. A 1/4" die grinder with a 3/16 endcut high speed burr would be much more efficient and effective. If you don't have it I understand you may not want to lay out the money for better tools but how much would a new engine cost in comparison?
Rob Grady

[lsoasey]

I agree the drill jig is a good idea but I think your Dremel grinding stones are a little wimpy for this job. A 1/4" die grinder with a 3/16 endcut high speed burr would be much more efficient and effective. If you don't have it I understand you may not want to lay out the money for better tools but how much would a new engine cost in comparison?
Rob Grady

Rob... I understand the value of using the right tools. I obviously would rather buy the right tool than buy a new engine. I've already spent over $150 in bits and grinders which have all broken or worn out so far. I made the most progress (albeit, not much) with above mentioned Dremel grinding stones, so that's really the only reason I've ordered more. I remember that you mentioned using a die grinder to me over the phone. I'll pull the trigger if that is the way to go. ~$50 for die grinder and another ~$300 for the compressor... Like you said, still better than an engine. Can you (or anyone else) suggest where I should purchase the 3/16 endcut high speed burr? I haven't used these before and I'm not very familiar with what to get. It looks like there might be different shape options too.

Is this an example of the type of burr you are describing?
http://midwestcutting.thomasnet.com/viewitems/burrs-solid-carbide-burrs/solid-carbide-burrs?

Also, would you use this setup with some kind of jig like what was being described earlier in this thread? (I think you might have been implying this above.)

[Denverdelorean]

Rob... I understand the value of using the right tools. I obviously would rather buy the right tool than buy a new engine. I've already spent over $150 in bits and grinders which have all broken or worn out so far. I made the most progress (albeit, not much) with above mentioned Dremel grinding stones, so that's really the only reason I've ordered more. I remember that you mentioned using a die grinder to me over the phone. I'll pull the trigger if that is the way to go. ~$50 for die grinder and another ~$300 for the compressor... Like you said, still better than an engine. Can you (or anyone else) suggest where I should purchase the 3/16 endcut high speed burr? I haven't used these before and I'm not very familiar with what to get. It looks like there might be different shape options too.

Is this an example of the type of burr you are describing?
http://midwestcutting.thomasnet.com/viewitems/burrs-solid-carbide-burrs/solid-carbide-burrs?

Also, would you use this setup with some kind of jig like what was being described earlier in this thread? (I think you might have been implying this above.)

From your picture, it looks like you have quite a few threads in the hole there. can you just use a shorter replacement bolt and leave the old bolt slag in the bottom of the hole?

[PJ Grady Inc.]

Rob... I understand the value of using the right tools. I obviously would rather buy the right tool than buy a new engine. I've already spent over $150 in bits and grinders which have all broken or worn out so far. I made the most progress (albeit, not much) with above mentioned Dremel grinding stones, so that's really the only reason I've ordered more. I remember that you mentioned using a die grinder to me over the phone. I'll pull the trigger if that is the way to go. ~$50 for die grinder and another ~$300 for the compressor... Like you said, still better than an engine. Can you (or anyone else) suggest where I should purchase the 3/16 endcut high speed burr? I haven't used these before and I'm not very familiar with what to get. It looks like there might be different shape options too.

Is this an example of the type of burr you are describing?
http://midwestcutting.thomasnet.com/viewitems/burrs-solid-carbide-burrs/solid-carbide-burrs?

Also, would you use this setup with some kind of jig like what was being described earlier in this thread? (I think you might have been implying this above.)

The bur (I was wrong on the spelling) I'm suggesting is available from McMaster Carr (one of my favorite companies for supplies with great service too). Thier part # is 4292A109 and cost's $16-. They also have an economy die grinder for less than $60- #4576A51.

Only a fool would dare enter the "Valley Of Death" without the proper tools and enough food and liquor to last at least a week! That's how I roll anyway(offduty of course!). Besides think of all the seriously deranged stuff you could do to your car with that new air compressor. Then you can get in totally over your head! I mean come on you have to have it!

And yes to the jig but remember unless you suspend it slightly above the work surface the side of the bur will be chewing into your fixture as you work. Conversly you could lug the whole mess over to my shop and I'd have it out in no time. Where did you say you live!
Rob

[PJ Grady Inc.]

From your picture, it looks like you have quite a few threads in the hole there. can you just use a shorter replacement bolt and leave the old bolt slag in the bottom of the hole?

Not such a good idea...too risky!
Rob

[lsoasey]

The bur (I was wrong on the spelling) I'm suggesting is available from McMaster Carr (one of my favorite companies for supplies with great service too). Thier part # is 4292A109 and cost's $16-. They also have an economy die grinder for less than $60- #4576A51.

Only a fool would dare enter the "Valley Of Death" without the proper tools and enough food and liquor to last at least a week! That's how I roll anyway(offduty of course!). Besides think of all the seriously deranged stuff you could do to your car with that new air compressor. Then you can get in totally over your head! I mean come on you have to have it!

And yes to the jig but remember unless you suspend it slightly above the work surface the side of the bur will be chewing into your fixture as you work. Conversly you could lug the whole mess over to my shop and I'd have it out in no time. Where did you say you live!
Rob

Rob.... I'm very close to picking up the die grinder and compressor. Thanks for the "encouragement." My undersized compressor actually just went out a couple weeks ago, so why am I looking for any more reasons? :cool: I'll consult you further when I'm ready to proceed with the seriously deranged stuff to do to my car. I should try to get it running again first. (To be perfectly honest, this broken bolt experience has had me pondering the alternatives from time to time. For example: Why not scrap all this antiquated internal combustion technology and convert the whole car to EV?)

Okay, back to the high speed bur... Thanks for the McMaster Carr part number. This helps a ton. One more question about this, however. These burs have a different size shank vs. cutting head. I'm having trouble envisioning how a hole in a steel jig plate which is big enough for the cutting head will continue to keep things centered once the head goes below the plate. It seems like I actually need some kind of contraption that can actually hold the die grinder body itself, only allowing it to slide vertically up and down. (Back to the drill press concept that was imagining before.) I'm probably making this too complicated. :hmm:

[lsoasey]

Conversly you could lug the whole mess over to my shop and I'd have it out in no time. Where did you say you live!
Rob

I just checked Google Maps... You are 1,815 miles from my location. Hey... I know! I bet you have been looking for a good excuse to visit the beautiful Rocky Mountains. Free room and board!

[David T]

I just checked Google Maps... You are 1,815 miles from my location. Hey... I know! I bet you have been looking for a good excuse to visit the beautiful Rocky Mountains. Free room and board!

I am sure if you check around you should be able to find someone a little closer to you. Go to a big auto parts store, not one of the chain stores, one with a machine shop. They remove broken bolts all the time. You may have to have the car transported to them, not many do housecalls. That's because they can't take all of their tools with them and they don't always know what they might need.

[PJ Grady Inc.]

Rob.... I'm very close to picking up the die grinder and compressor. Thanks for the "encouragement." My undersized compressor actually just went out a couple weeks ago, so why am I looking for any more reasons? :cool: I'll consult you further when I'm ready to proceed with the seriously deranged stuff to do to my car. I should try to get it running again first. (To be perfectly honest, this broken bolt experience has had me pondering the alternatives from time to time. For example: Why not scrap all this antiquated internal combustion technology and convert the whole car to EV?)

Okay, back to the high speed bur... Thanks for the McMaster Carr part number. This helps a ton. One more question about this, however. These burs have a different size shank vs. cutting head. I'm having trouble envisioning how a hole in a steel jig plate which is big enough for the cutting head will continue to keep things centered once the head goes below the plate. It seems like I actually need some kind of contraption that can actually hold the die grinder body itself, only allowing it to slide vertically up and down. (Back to the drill press concept that was imagining before.) I'm probably making this too complicated. :hmm:

As I said you will need to set your "fixture" slightly above the work surface for that reason by shimming it up a bit with washers. Use 1/4" thick steel stock (again see McM. Carr) with a hole to fit the other water pipe 7mm mtg holes (use 2 of them to keep it stable) and a 1/4" hole over the broken bolt to stabilize your grinder. I usually do this freehand but the fixture will give you that much more control over potential mishaps. I suggested the 3/16 because any smaller is likely to break and the 1/4 inch might remove too much material.

Conversely as David suggested you could tow it to a machine shop.

BTW I love Colorodo and could see myself retiring there one day. If you guys have an active club out there I'd love to spend a few days tinkering on your cars and 4wheeling in the mountains. Just say when but wait until it warms up a bit.
Rob Grady

[Denverdelorean]

BTW I love Colorodo and could see myself retiring there one day. If you guys have an active club out there I'd love to spend a few days tinkering on your cars and 4wheeling in the mountains. Just say when but wait until it warms up a bit.
Rob Grady


I reallllllly hope this happens!