Broken metal fuel line?

[DMC3165]

Yesterday after parking my car in the garage I noticed a very heavy fuel smell in my garage. This evening I was going over the car. I checked all the fuel lines in the engine bay. Then I checked my fuel pump area and all were dry. However I jacked up the car and noticed two distinct stains on the fiberglass tub near the backside of the driver and passanger seat area. It was hard to tell if it's gas or not. I ran the car when it was jacked up and didn't see anything dripping but the heavy fuel smell came back as soon as the car was shut off. I took these pics. Any help with this would be appreciated. Have a gut feeling my body is coming off the frame very soon.


Pics are not the greatest but the driver's side trailing arm is visible in the second pic to give you an idea of where these pics were taken.




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[Rich]

Definitely needs attention.

Probably a bad/loose/leaky banjo fitting on top of the fuel filter. Or some other leak in that vicinity. The outlet of the filter is up there where your photos show what looks like wetness on the tub behind driver. Not sure what is over on the passenger side in that regard.

First wipe off some of that wetness and smell for gas. Assuming it is:

Trace the main fuel hose from the right side of the fuel distributor across the engine and down forward along the left coolant pipe. You should be able to see the top of the filter from low in the engine bay with a good light (helps if the garage area is dim when you look). That's where the banjo fitting is for that line. See if there is any gas puddled on top of the filter housing shortly after shutdown. Troubleshoot from there if you find anything wrong.

The feed line is at high pressure after shutdown so if there is a leak it won't stop leaking immediately.

You may also have a hot restart issue if the fuel leak is large enough. Any sign of that?

[Tillsy]

You'll want to replace that orange hose on your accmulator - they're known to split over time

[DMC3165]

I forgot to mention I did check the fuel filter area for leaks. It was my first thought as well that something there had gone wrong. But its dry.

The orange hose in the accumulator is about 4 years old. I Was thinking It may have sprung a leak also but It's totally dry.

I think I should've made the title to this thread "rotted metal fuel line". I think that may be what happened and I also think it may be on the return side not the supply side. At this point I'm probably just going to bring it to PJ Grady's and see what he says. After all if the body has to come off I'm not equipped to do it and I definitely don't have the room to do it either.

[Jonathan]

If trying to wipe off some of that wet area and smelling it to see if it is gas doesn't work, you might try to see if it ignites. Not on the car of course!! I mean, if your nose won't convince you, perhaps you can find a way to wipe off some of the excess with a cloth or material that isn't flammable by itself, and then see if that thin film of fluid on the cloth ignites.

I only say that because if it were my car, I would be making very, very sure it is indeed a fuel line problem that requires the body to come of the frame BEFORE I would be going ahead with taking my car's body off the frame. That is a ton of work, for you or someone else, to only find out it wasn't necessary. If the "depending on rust" phrase has applied to jobs on your car in the past, getting the body of the frame could turn into a very difficult project.

You might even consider trying some sort of fuel dye perhaps to add to your tank and then run the fuel pump or engine for long enough to see if that fuel dyed colour comes through on this underside of your car. Something that is known to not cause problems to your engine that is, no food dye from your kitchen baking supplies! That way you could wipe the underside afterwards with a white paper towel and tell pretty easily if it is a fuel line leak or not.

You can't see the hard lines without getting to them, but you can probably dream up a way to confirm you need to in advance.

[DMC3165]

My brother just called this morning. He has a tiny fiber optic camera he's going to let me borrow later and hopefully will have a better idea what's going on then.

[SS Spoiler]

If it is a return fuel line couldn't you just sting a flexible hose back to the tank without lifting the body?

[DMC3165]

If it is a return fuel line couldn't you just sting a flexible hose back to the tank without lifting the body?

Everyone I've talked to today told me they are %90 sure it's the metal line that goes from the accumulator to the filter. There is a two piece kit that replaces this line and the body doesn't have to come off. If it's something screwy like the return line I might ask about doing something like that but it might be kind of dangerous to bypass the metal line with rubber. It could chaff or split which is why the steel lines are there in the first place.

[Jonathan]

Everyone I've talked to today told me they are %90 sure it's the metal line that goes from the accumulator to the filter. There is a two piece kit that replaces this line and the body doesn't have to come off. If it's something screwy like the return line I might ask about doing something like that but it might be kind of dangerous to bypass the metal line with rubber. It could chaff or split which is why the steel lines are there in the first place.

I have this rubber hose replacement for my car, Chris.

Shown here (uninstalled):

31845

I got it because a few seasons ago when replacing the accumulator, we had a pin hole develop in that hard line. The mechanic I enlisted to do the accumulator work put in a short piece of fuel line hose where the leak was. Luckily this was in an accessible spot and just in front of the filter. It has held well over the years with clamps x2 on both ends. The replacement hose is a better solution, but not quite as good as a new hard line I'll admit.

I have not yet installed this hose and plan to when I swap out my fuel filter. My filter has been on the car longer than I have owned it (2007) and has fallen into that "if it ain't broke don't fix it" category. Rusty fittings, no access to a lift, and not wanting to make anything worse when it isn't causing me trouble right now has meant this hose still sits in a box.

Let me know if you go this direction as I'd like to hear how you (or someone) else did the routing of this hose. I understand it snakes through the frame to reach the accumulator area but I don't have a good visual on that as I can't get under my car very well or easily. I have new fittings for the fuel filter end of this hose as well.

[David T]

Jumper the fuel pump so it runs continuously and go searching. I doubt it is one of the metal lines but anything is possible. On one car I fixed, the smell was because the vent hose coming out of the bottom of the carbon canister in the left rear pontoon was all plugged up. On another car the hose coming off the hard pipe going to the canister was missing under the diagnostic plug, in about the same area as your stain. If all you have is smell and no leaks it is most likely a problem in the venting system for the fuel tank.

[DMC3165]

. If all you have is smell and no leaks it is most likely a problem in the venting system for the fuel tank.

That's an interesting point David. I passed by Rob Grady's today and he couldn't find any leaks (thankfully). At the shop there was almost no smell of gasoline either. He cleaned off the stains and recommended I drive it a bit and keep an eye on it. Shortly after I left I had to gas up and on a full tank there was no gas smell at all.

This had me thinking on the way home. I recently put in a dmch fuel pump because for the last four years the stock fuel pump would constantly pop out of the tank. Escpecially when the weather was hot. I Destroyed a couple of boots and it would constantly leak gas. Since I put the DMCH pump in there have been no issues with leaks. But it got me thinking on a low tank with hot vapors building up in the tank they have to come out somewhere. I had bypassed the rollover valve with a brass union a few years back so that vapors could flow easily back to the canister. Thinking the system nay have been over pressure and that was causing the boot to constantly pop out. Maybe hot gas got up in the evaporative system? Rob said everything looks safe which was my main concern, a nuisance gas smell I can live with just as long as it's not gonna blow up!

[PJ Grady Inc.]

That's an interesting point David. I passed by Rob Grady's today and he couldn't find any leaks (thankfully). At the shop there was almost no smell of gasoline either. He cleaned off the stains and recommended I drive it a bit and keep an eye on it. Shortly after I left I had to gas up and on a full tank there was no gas smell at all.

This had me thinking on the way home. I recently put in a dmch fuel pump because for the last four years the stock fuel pump would constantly pop out of the tank. Escpecially when the weather was hot. I Destroyed a couple of boots and it would constantly leak gas. Since I put the DMCH pump in there have been no issues with leaks. But it got me thinking on a low tank with hot vapors building up in the tank they have to come out somewhere. I had bypassed the rollover valve with a brass union a few years back so that vapors could flow easily back to the canister. Thinking the system nay have been over pressure and that was causing the boot to constantly pop out. Maybe hot gas got up in the evaporative system? Rob said everything looks safe which was my main concern, a nuisance gas smell I can live with just as long as it's not gonna blow up!

You forgot to mention that while suspicious looking the stains in the pictures do not appear to be or have the smell of gas. We wiped everything down and Chris will come back if he smells the gas issue again. Oh yeah and put the rollover valve back in so we can rule that out too. Don't want you spilling gas the next time you "rollover"!
Rob Grady

[DMC3165]

You forgot to mention that while suspicious looking the stains in the pictures do not appear to be or have the smell of gas. We wiped everything down and Chris will come back if he smells the gas issue again. Oh yeah and put the rollover valve back in so we can rule that out too. Don't want you spilling gas the next time you "rollover"!
Rob Grady

It honestly just slipped my mind and it didn't really dawn on me until I gassed up. I'm gonna hook that valve back up tonight and keep an eye on it. Thanks again Rob.

[David T]

It honestly just slipped my mind and it didn't really dawn on me until I gassed up. I'm gonna hook that valve back up tonight and keep an eye on it. Thanks again Rob.

You never mentioned the boot would pop out! A sure sign of pressure in the tank. And you neglected to mention another tidbit about the roll/over valve! Now you have me saying for SURE you have to check out the vapor system. I don't think the roll/over valve is the problem here but you should put it back anyway and now you have to make sure the venting pipe running from the front to the back is not plugged, kinked, etc. I agree it isn't dangerous but fuel vapors can make you sick if you breath too much of it in so it should be fixed. Now that Rob knows what to look for he will find it.

[Rich]

And you did not respond to the guess that if you have a high-side fuel leak you likely also have a hot-start problem.

Guessing there is no hot start issue and likely no high-pressure fuel leak the fuel smell, if any, is likely in the tank/fittings/filler neck/pump boot category along the lines of David and Rob.

A car that reeks of gas in your garage - any time - needs attention. You need to be able to recreate the problem and track it down.

[DMC3165]

Sorry, the other day was a fast paced day. There are no hot start problems at all. Truthfully the car is actually running quite well. But the gas smell is noticeable on a low tank rather them a full one.

I did get the fiber optic camera yesterday and at a, quick glance it didn't show anything. But I need more time with it. I also plan on taking the shifter boot out and looking in on it that way.

[David T]

Sorry, the other day was a fast paced day. There are no hot start problems at all. Truthfully the car is actually running quite well. But the gas smell is noticeable on a low tank rather them a full one.

I did get the fiber optic camera yesterday and at a, quick glance it didn't show anything. But I need more time with it. I also plan on taking the shifter boot out and looking in on it that way.

Just open the engine cover and look all the way forward on the left side of the motor down by the firewall. You should see a metal pipe with a hose attached. Follow it up into the left rear pontoon. Remove the vapor canister in the left pontoon and see what is going on. You don't need a fiber optic camera yet.

[DMC3165]

I've had the canister out several times over the last few years looking for problems or clogged lines. All were clear and the canister seemed fine. The port that goes to engine vacuum was stuck but I freed it up with brake clean and wd-40 3 years ago. The line from the tank was clear and so was the port that attached to the canister.

I had a thought that possibly the vent line from the tank to the canister may have split or rotted somewhere between the body and the frame.

[dn010]

Do your cars not have an access cut-out over where the fuel lines connect on top of the frame? I just so happen to have my frame/body split and noticed this??


31877

[Tillsy]

Do your cars not have an access cut-out over where the fuel lines connect on top of the frame? I just so happen to have my frame/body split and noticed this??


31877

It's under the centre console

[dn010]

Kind of funny, I never noticed this "from above". But at least, it is another way to rule out leaking connections...


It's under the centre console

[DMC3165]

So Tom Neiland and and Dave Delman thoroughly investigated my fuel smell and mystery stain today. With the help of my fiber optic camera we were able to determine there are definitely no obvious leaks in the metal fuel lines. So the stain is definitely a mystery. We were however able to determine the purge valve in my charcoal canister was definitely not working properly. So Tom was nice enough to swap out his canister for mine while I order a replacement. It may explain the fuel smell but not the stain which at this point may or may not be fuel. I will continue to drive the car for the next few days (as long as the weather holds) to get a line on this and see if the fuel smell or the stains return.

More to come...

[David T]

So Tom Neiland and and Dave Delman thoroughly investigated my fuel smell and mystery stain today. With the help of my fiber optic camera we were able to determine there are definitely no obvious leaks in the metal fuel lines. So the stain is definitely a mystery. We were however able to determine the purge valve in my charcoal canister was definitely not working properly. So Tom was nice enough to swap out his canister for mine while I order a replacement. It may explain the fuel smell but not the stain which at this point may or may not be fuel. I will continue to drive the car for the next few days (as long as the weather holds) to get a line on this and see if the fuel smell or the stains return.

More to come...

Other possibilities for the stain include an old coolant leak, a torn C/V boot throwing grease all over, or maybe you drove over something? If nothing is leaking and you cleaned the stain up I would not worry about it unless you see a new stain. Typically you wouldn't see a stain from a fuel leak unless it is recent. A defective purge valve is rare but possible. The hard part is finding the problem, fixing it is easy. BTW, the bottom of the canister comes off and there is a filter inside. It is usually pretty clean but make sure the hose is not plugged up. Dave D should have a canister from his electric car, he doesn't need one on it!

[PJ Grady Inc.]

Other possibilities for the stain include an old coolant leak, a torn C/V boot throwing grease all over, or maybe you drove over something? If nothing is leaking and you cleaned the stain up I would not worry about it unless you see a new stain. Typically you wouldn't see a stain from a fuel leak unless it is recent. A defective purge valve is rare but possible. The hard part is finding the problem, fixing it is easy. BTW, the bottom of the canister comes off and there is a filter inside. It is usually pretty clean but make sure the hose is not plugged up. Dave D should have a canister from his electric car, he doesn't need one on it!

I inspected the car a week ago Dave and there where no obvious fluid leaks from any source. It could be from road debris but it didn't look like that either. I've never run across those type of stains before....quite mysterious! I doubt they were fuel stains though so that's the important part.
Rob Grady

[David T]

I inspected the car a week ago Dave and there where no obvious fluid leaks from any source. It could be from road debris but it didn't look like that either. I've never run across those type of stains before....quite mysterious! I doubt they were fuel stains though so that's the important part.
Rob Grady

I did read where you cleaned the stain. I can't explain it either, just throwing out possibilities. As long as it doesn't come back! If the car is an '83 maybe someone cleaned off undercoating? Anyway it would seem the problem with fuel odors is solved for now. If nothing is leaking and the stain doesn't return we are done.

[DMC3165]

I need nicer weather for more road testing. There was a slight odor of fuel on Monday after I drove the car. But its difficult to tell where it's coming from. I want to make sure all the emissions controls are hooked up and working properly before I bring it back to Rob so there's one less thing to look at. The stains really are a mystery. Maybe just coincidence I don't know. Which is why I've asked other people to look at it.