proto 2 delorean question.

[dmcjohn]

Hi all,

Are there any photos of the second Bill Collins protoype DeLorean? I've read that this one was fitted with a Renault V6 although have never seen photos of this - would be interesting to see it. Was it ever used for publicity shots, or were all those shots from Proto-1?

I noticed an anomaly which I think I mentioned here before but now can't find my post... Some pics of the Proto DeLorean show the car sporting different seats - I thought for a while that this would be a way of distinguishing the 2 Bill Collins cars that maybe the 2nd prototype was the one with different seats. However, then I noticed that the photo of the 2nd Bill Collins car abandoned at Lotus shows it with the same seats as Proto-1. So, it appears that for some reason, they had different seats in one of these Bill Collins cars, but eventually settled on the same style for both.

For example, these are the seats we are familar with which are in Proto-1 today:

31929

and they appear to be the same style in the picture of Proto-2 rotting in the Lotus junkyard:

31933

However, in these following promo shots, the seats are clearly different, and have a separate headrest, with the side bolsters ending at the bottom of the headrest rather than continuing up the side of the incorporated headrest as per Proto-1.

31930

31931

31932


The funny thing is, these are the only promo shots I have ever seen with these different seats - odd eh? Anyone able to identify what brand seats these are?

Thanks,
John

[dmcjohn]

To me, they are a bit like Recaro seats, as you could have found in a 70's BMW.

For example:

31934

Hard to tell really as there is not much of the seat visible in the picture...

John

[matt clark]

I'm pretty sure those promo shots at the end of your post are P1.

P2 got very little camera time as I think it was shipped over to Lotus really quickly. There's very little stuff out there on P2, but from what I've seen, P2 never had door mirrors which is how you can tell them apart. P2 was also the first PRV car as you said, made by a different company. I've got paperwork and dates on when those two prototypes were completed (I think P2 cost $170k in 1970's money) but that's all buried away somewhere.

A pet theory of mine is that P2 never had a "proper" passenger seat either - in every photo I've seen (albeit very few of them) of P2, you really can't see the seat, but then from the angles the photos are taken, it would be hard to tell anyway. I've seen a photo of it with a basic bucket seat installed, but that was a bolt-on rather than part of the actual interior. If you look in SSI there's a photo of P1, P2 and the wooden model and it looks like P2 is missing a seat.

Here's a clearer shot of it at Lotus by Paul Fricker from Nick's book - no seat there but that would make sense as Lotus were in the process of dismantling it. But other photos I've seen of it suggest it doesn't have them either...

31955

[matt clark]

Also, to add, I'd be very surprised if the seats weren't bespoke. At that point the car was a styling exercise rather than a viable production model so most things would be custom. The radio and I think even some of the instrumentation were mock-ups.

[Sidaries]

Mostly I read the same as matt. The 2nd prototype was made by Bill Collins, but however the Proto-1 was made by Kar Kraft in Detroit, the Proto-2 was made by Creative Industries. The car was directly transported to Lotus, for testing how the car can be mass produced.
About the seats I just know one thing. It is that in the nineties, when the car was rediscovered in the Lotus HQ, the seats were painted to silver, but the paint job was horrible. Anyone sat on them got silver paint on their cloth.

31956

[matt clark]

They crushed P2 shortly afterwards :(

[Sidaries]

They crushed P2 shortly afterwards :(

Yes. After Proton bought Lotus, they cleared out the backyard. :(

[Andy]

So you had:
- wooden mockup, wich is in Northern Ireland at the Ulster Museum ( no sidemirrors )
- Proto 1, wich has been restored and is for sale at the moment
- Proto 2 ( or D1a ), wich has been destroyed by Lotus in 1996 ( apparantly 1 seat and no sidemirrors )

... but where does this one fit in? It looks like the mockup, but with different rims AND sidemirrors.

31957

[matt clark]

That was the wood mock-up after it was restyled, so one half is the production shape, and the other half is the Bill Collins shape. Look how the bumpers split and the different depth of the rear fascias.

The wheel covers on there are likely paper or card mockups over steel wheels, as it sits in the museum now it has paper representations of the production wheels. Might even have those underneath, I'll check when I'm there next.

[matt clark]

It's kinda faded in that photo but I liked this treatment for the fuel filler - on the model. It would look terrible on the production car but it's kinda a cool idea.

http://i.imgur.com/HiYngby.jpg

[SIMid]

It's kinda faded in that photo but I liked this treatment for the fuel filler - on the model. It would look terrible on the production car but it's kinda a cool idea.

http://i.imgur.com/HiYngby.jpg

Slightly off topic, I actually like these concept wheels.

Could get away with these on a D.

31958

[Andy]

That was the wood mock-up after it was restyled, so one half is the production shape, and the other half is the Bill Collins shape. Look how the bumpers split and the different depth of the rear fascias.

The wheel covers on there are likely paper or card mockups over steel wheels, as it sits in the museum now it has paper representations of the production wheels. Might even have those underneath, I'll check when I'm there next.

Ok, thanks! So 'my' picture and the wooden mockup in the museum are one and the same, just different rims and sidemirrors added ...

[matt clark]

Ok, thanks! So 'my' picture and the wooden mockup in the museum are one and the same, just different rims and sidemirrors added ...

Yep. It looks like that mockup was directly based on this which is the ItalDesign sketch of the revised DeLorean:

http://i.imgur.com/grBHI5v.jpg

I suppose at some point after the mirrors/wheel trims where veto'd and so were taken off the model.

[dmcjohn]

I'm pretty sure those promo shots at the end of your post are P1.

P2 got very little camera time as I think it was shipped over to Lotus really quickly. There's very little stuff out there on P2, but from what I've seen, P2 never had door mirrors which is how you can tell them apart. P2 was also the first PRV car as you said, made by a different company. I've got paperwork and dates on when those two prototypes were completed (I think P2 cost $170k in 1970's money) but that's all buried away somewhere.

A pet theory of mine is that P2 never had a "proper" passenger seat either - in every photo I've seen (albeit very few of them) of P2, you really can't see the seat, but then from the angles the photos are taken, it would be hard to tell anyway. I've seen a photo of it with a basic bucket seat installed, but that was a bolt-on rather than part of the actual interior. If you look in SSI there's a photo of P1, P2 and the wooden model and it looks like P2 is missing a seat.

Here's a clearer shot of it at Lotus by Paul Fricker from Nick's book - no seat there but that would make sense as Lotus were in the process of dismantling it. But other photos I've seen of it suggest it doesn't have them either...

31955

Thanks for your reply and the info Matt - that's a great shot of P2 - I forgot about that pic in Nick's book.

I found some higher quality versions of those pics of Proto 1 and cropped to the seat, and compared them to these recaro's - looks very similar but hard to know.

32078

Maybe they were bespoke or maybe they were temporarily fitted while the final Proto-1 seats were being finished. It also looks like the space between the seats in Proto-1 is different - there seems to be a high tunnel present there.

Thanks,
John

[Dangermouse]

Recaros were the sports car seats to have in the 80s, so I could well believe that they used them in the prototype. Why custom make a seat that is so visually similar to a readily available one?

[matt clark]

Thanks for your reply and the info Matt - that's a great shot of P2 - I forgot about that pic in Nick's book.

I found some higher quality versions of those pics of Proto 1 and cropped to the seat, and compared them to these recaro's - looks very similar but hard to know.

32078

Maybe they were bespoke or maybe they were temporarily fitted while the final Proto-1 seats were being finished. It also looks like the space between the seats in Proto-1 is different - there seems to be a high tunnel present there.

Thanks,
John

Good detective work - I'd be inclined to agree with your temporary fitting theory.

My copy of SSI is 130 miles away so I can't check but are the seats visible in the photo of Bill Collins with the interior styling buck?

[matt clark]

Here's one to throw confusion into the mix:

Here's a photo of P1 (you can see the V4) sitting on the same type of wheels that were on the epowood model (the first full size DMC anything). Now with it being sat on those wheels, I'd assume I'd assume that it was the car right after it'd been made and was waiting on the arrival of the custom alloy wheels. You'll notice though that it has the full interior seats, not the Recaros...

http://i.imgur.com/NiLts64.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/ztWhtHC.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/1JCZ4BR.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/XAbCzzA.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/qCcDQoU.jpg

However in your promo shots with the Recaros, it has the wheels it usually has. Must have been some chopping and changing!

edit: on second thought, I bet those are wheel covers rather than actual alloys - P1 was 4-bolt on the front and 5-bolt on the rear and those wheel covers are 4 bolt front and back. So maybe the picture is later on than I thought.

[dmcjohn]

I've been doing some more detective work since the weekend... I got in contact with the original photographer! He has been great - very forthcoming with info about the photoshoot, very nice guy.

I asked him if there were any other pics available from the shoot that were unpublished. There are, but unfortunately he didn't have them any longer. They are stored in an archive in a company outside Paris, France.

However, he put me in touch with someone else to follow up with, and I am now working on getting the rest of those other images from the photo shoot scanned and emailed over to me. I've already seen some of the pics which are unpublished which were emailed to me this morning, and now waiting to see if there is anything else in the archive. Hopefully there will be a good shot of the interior without passengers.

Bit of background on the photoshoot - looks like it was taken around March 1979, which seems quite late and a bit odd to me to have the car sporting these seats....

The pics were taken as part of a press launch event. The prototype was brought by enclosed trailer to the desert outside Palm Springs, CA for the photoshoot, and it seems later that evening to a hotel lobby for an evening event. JZD's wife was there, and according to the photographer John seemed a bit bored at the photoshoot!

Anyway, hopefully I'll have some more info later today.

Side question though, and maybe this needs its own topic - would anyone be interested in a limited run of posters of one of these shots? Maybe of JZD sitting on the hood of the car. I'm talking to them about licencing options at the moment, but it looks like this will be expensive unfortunately. Still though, let me know if you would be interested, and I'll find out more (I know I'd personally love to have a poster print of one of these pics hanging on my garage wall).

Thanks,
John

[Dangermouse]

I think you would probably need to put a figure/range on "expensive" ..........

[dmcjohn]

working on it.... but licensing starts at $250 to $500 for personal use depending on the picture, and I don't think that covers multiple prints. I'm hoping there is some alternative licencing way it can be done where an agreed number of prints can be done for a set figure, and then split the cost between a group. I'm not looking to make any money on this - I'll pay the same as everyone else. I'm hoping that I can get some sort of deal where pricing would be around $50 to $80... but at this stage that's only an aspiration. I'll have to wait and see what they say...

[dmcjohn]

low quality - but these are some of the other pics from the photoshoot.

32084

[Doogie]

For what its worth... I had the honor to snap a few pics of Proto 1 at the owners house a few years ago...

3208932088

[toyotafreak88]

Awesome to find these shots! Being a photographer I can appreciate this photographer helping you find the location of the images! I hope I can help clients that far after shots, and get high profile work someday. Anyway, keep it up, these are great!

[Tamir A.]

Very cool stuff.


low quality - but these are some of the other pics from the photoshoot.

http://dmctalk.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=32084&stc=1