Upgraded lower control arm?

[dn010]

I am continuing my frame swap and the replacement frame I purchased was a roller. 2 different LCAs have come off this frame, one is stock and the other seems to be beefier, heavier; upgraded.

Can anyone identify who would have produced the upgraded LCA? I'd like to have matching LCAs when putting this back together... The differences are obvious:


32260

[Patrick C]

Possibly one of the mid-80's replacements from the DeLorean Motor Club of America.

[dn010]

Forgot to add this info, maybe it would be helpful in determining what I have:

Frame is #308, from VIN...712, which I understand was once used for training in California...

[jackb]

If you are unable to source another beefier LCA, and to get them matching use both originals, I highly reccomend Delorean Europe's LCA brackets. Tgey are the single best upgrade I've done on my car, and made a very noticable improvement in handling.

[djdogbone]

Isn't there an all aluminium one out there that's really beefy?

[djdogbone]

Here is the thread about LCAs http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?9970-What-new-vendor-products-were-shown-at-DCS-2014&highlight=products

[PJ Grady Inc.]

I am continuing my frame swap and the replacement frame I purchased was a roller. 2 different LCAs have come off this frame, one is stock and the other seems to be beefier, heavier; upgraded.

Can anyone identify who would have produced the upgraded LCA? I'd like to have matching LCAs when putting this back together... The differences are obvious:


32260

I think that's from a batch of beefy but stock looking arms Ken K. designed for us about 15 years ago but we never made more. I could ask Ken about it but something happened to the builder or the tooling I think.
Rob Grady

[PJ Grady Inc.]

Isn't there an all aluminium one out there that's really beefy?

Aluminum ones were made back in the eighties which looked very similiar to the DMCMW units. The concern I had at that time was the weakest part of the arm was the link bushing to the frame area because there wasn't any room to provide extra material for strenght without hitting the frame. Other than that they were very nice.
Rob Grady

[PJ Grady Inc.]

I forgot to mention we carry the stainless lower link arms now if you can't match either of those.
Rob Grady

I am continuing my frame swap and the replacement frame I purchased was a roller. 2 different LCAs have come off this frame, one is stock and the other seems to be beefier, heavier; upgraded.

Can anyone identify who would have produced the upgraded LCA? I'd like to have matching LCAs when putting this back together... The differences are obvious:


32260

[dn010]

Thanks for the info Rob! I was hoping it would be something I'd be able to easily obtain again but I guess if this is the case, I won't be able to find another one for the other side.

I still have the arms from my original frame but as we know, they're pretty flimsy and thin compared to the one pictured so I'd really like to go with something other than original. I would like to check out your stainless LCAs, I'll check back on your site when you have them on there.

Thanks again! Dan B.


I think that's from a batch of beefy but stock looking arms Ken K. designed for us about 15 years ago but we never made more. I could ask Ken about it but something happened to the builder or the tooling I think.
Rob Grady

[Delorean Industries]

Stainless control arm options:

Without ball joints
http://www.deloreanindustries.com/31-control-arm-kit-stainless-base/



With ball joints and all required bushings etc.

http://www.deloreanindustries.com/31-front-lower-control-arm-kit-stainless/

32268

[David T]

Thanks for the info Rob! I was hoping it would be something I'd be able to easily obtain again but I guess if this is the case, I won't be able to find another one for the other side.

I still have the arms from my original frame but as we know, they're pretty flimsy and thin compared to the one pictured so I'd really like to go with something other than original. I would like to check out your stainless LCAs, I'll check back on your site when you have them on there.

Thanks again! Dan B.

As "flimsy and thin" as you say they are, over 90% of the running fleet is still driving on them with no issues. It would seem from experience they are adequate under normal driving conditions. When subjected to stresses they were NOT designed for they are not adequate. That would include:
Towing or pulling the car by the lower control arms
Hitting curbs or other road hazards
Using improper procedures to remove or install bushings into the LCA's

One reason you want to keep the weight of the LCA's down is to keep the "unsprung" weight as low as you can. If you want to use the OEM LCA's but want them stronger you can always "box" them, that is, to weld a plate along the bottom. I suggest putting in lightening holes, it doesn't have to be a solid plate. I don't know about using aluminum as a materiel for the LCA's. It's tensile strength is lower than steel. It would take a redesign of the LCA to compensate for the reduced tensile strength. In newer cars you see aluminum and materials other than stamped steel but they are usually castings or forgings. WAY too expensive to make for the limited amount you could sell.

[kings1527]

So just to clarify about the failures of LCAs. I've only read that the liklihood of a LCA failing would be due to a high mileage vehicle (such as greater than 100k) or chronic driving on really bad roads. What about "normal" driving via responsible ownership? Yes, I know..."ha ha", responsible and all that. But sometimes I feel like the LCAs are ticking timebombs ready to go at any minute but from what I'm finding out, there's definitely a story behind someone's LCAs that have failed.

[kings1527]

As "flimsy and thin" as you say they are, over 90% of the running fleet is still driving on them with no issues. It would seem from experience they are adequate under normal driving conditions. When subjected to stresses they were NOT designed for they are not adequate. That would include:
Towing or pulling the car by the lower control arms
Hitting curbs or other road hazards
Using improper procedures to remove or install bushings into the LCA's

Just saw this when my browser refreshed. Thanks.

[PJ Grady Inc.]

Thanks for the info Rob! I was hoping it would be something I'd be able to easily obtain again but I guess if this is the case, I won't be able to find another one for the other side.

I still have the arms from my original frame but as we know, they're pretty flimsy and thin compared to the one pictured so I'd really like to go with something other than original. I would like to check out your stainless LCAs, I'll check back on your site when you have them on there.

Thanks again! Dan B.
The pricing and the quality is the same as DPI's because that's who I get them from so it's really a matter of preference or distance. Even Josh will tell you I'm the "sweller guy" or is it just my head!!!
Rob Grady

[PJ Grady Inc.]

As "flimsy and thin" as you say they are, over 90% of the running fleet is still driving on them with no issues. It would seem from experience they are adequate under normal driving conditions. When subjected to stresses they were NOT designed for they are not adequate. That would include:
Towing or pulling the car by the lower control arms
Hitting curbs or other road hazards
Using improper procedures to remove or install bushings into the LCA's

One reason you want to keep the weight of the LCA's down is to keep the "unsprung" weight as low as you can. If you want to use the OEM LCA's but want them stronger you can always "box" them, that is, to weld a plate along the bottom. I suggest putting in lightening holes, it doesn't have to be a solid plate. I don't know about using aluminum as a materiel for the LCA's. It's tensile strength is lower than steel. It would take a redesign of the LCA to compensate for the reduced tensile strength. In newer cars you see aluminum and materials other than stamped steel but they are usually castings or forgings. WAY too expensive to make for the limited amount you could sell.


Agreed but you forgot to add the degradation of rust to the mix which is a primary factor in replacing them. This is probably the main cause of most failures and certainly the most unpredictable as surface rust verses structural rust damage is not easily determined.

Also I too would shy away from the aluminum ones, even though they are light and pretty, until they can figure a way to beef up the frame to bushing area. A stress crack there would be almost impossible to see without removing the arm or using an inspection camera.
Rob Grady

[dn010]

Agreed but you forgot to add the degradation of rust to the mix which is a primary factor in replacing them. This is probably the main cause of most failures and certainly the most unpredictable as surface rust verses structural rust damage is not easily determined.

Also I too would shy away from the aluminum ones, even though they are light and pretty, until they can figure a way to beef up the frame to bushing area. A stress crack there would be almost impossible to see without removing the arm or using an inspection camera.
Rob Grady

This is the reason I really do not want to use my LCAs that were with my original frame. They've been beaten by potholes, rattled down dirt roads, and chewed on by rust in the 8+ years I've driven in the rain, shine, snow/salt etc. of upstate NY. They've held up rather well to be honest but they need bushings, ball joints and of course the sandblast/refurbish. The only failure I've had, had to do with the nut stripping and sliding right off the lower ball joint (DAP in case you're worrying), thankfully it happened right AFTER I exited a highway and was turning onto another road.

I'd rather just replace the LCAs at this point and with buying a rolling chassis from California, I never thought I would need to worry about the LCA's on that one but obviously I've gotten 2 different ones on it.

I don't want aluminum, and stainless is a pretty penny considering I just paid for a frame, shipping it, shocks, parts, etc BUT they would be my replacement of preference at this point. Perhaps once I cut off the front section of my old frame and sell it, I'll go stainless and be done with it!

[Bitsyncmaster]

Aluminum ones were made back in the eighties which looked very similiar to the DMCMW units. The concern I had at that time was the weakest part of the arm was the link bushing to the frame area because there wasn't any room to provide extra material for strenght without hitting the frame. Other than that they were very nice.
Rob Grady

I think an aluminum LCA machined from bar stock could provide much more strength for that area your conserned about. Maybe one welded from plate could not do it. I just working from memory since I sold my OEM LCAs.

[PJ Grady Inc.]

This is the reason I really do not want to use my LCAs that were with my original frame. They've been beaten by potholes, rattled down dirt roads, and chewed on by rust in the 8+ years I've driven in the rain, shine, snow/salt etc. of upstate NY. They've held up rather well to be honest but they need bushings, ball joints and of course the sandblast/refurbish. The only failure I've had, had to do with the nut stripping and sliding right off the lower ball joint (DAP in case you're worrying), thankfully it happened right AFTER I exited a highway and was turning onto another road.

I'd rather just replace the LCAs at this point and with buying a rolling chassis from California, I never thought I would need to worry about the LCA's on that one but obviously I've gotten 2 different ones on it.

I don't want aluminum, and stainless is a pretty penny considering I just paid for a frame, shipping it, shocks, parts, etc BUT they would be my replacement of preference at this point. Perhaps once I cut off the front section of my old frame and sell it, I'll go stainless and be done with it!

The problem is there is no space to make it sustantially thicker than the steel one in that area and no easy way around the clearance problem. Believe me I'd like it to work and it will at first but it would not be safe if they cracked in that area as it becomes the "weakest link" so to speak. You may not see it till they brake off at the frame and that's not how I like to "roll" going down the road! I love aluminum for making parts however as I beleve in the Lotus' lighter is better mantra.
Rob

[Delorean Industries]

I always end the aluminum LCA debate with owners with the classic example of broken aluminum arms from a few years back. Failure occurred at the frame to bushing point as Rob mentioned.I keep the pair on hand here to advise owners that despite aluminum arms are available again. All this has happened before and will happen again. Poor material choice for the designed application. I wouldn't put a set on my stock car yet alone a performance application.

[David T]

Agreed but you forgot to add the degradation of rust to the mix which is a primary factor in replacing them. This is probably the main cause of most failures and certainly the most unpredictable as surface rust verses structural rust damage is not easily determined.

Also I too would shy away from the aluminum ones, even though they are light and pretty, until they can figure a way to beef up the frame to bushing area. A stress crack there would be almost impossible to see without removing the arm or using an inspection camera.
Rob Grady

I agree rust is also a problem but that goes for the whole frame too. We have all seen frames that are/were unsafe to drive on. The LCA's will not rust all by themselves. For them to rust out bad enough to be compromised you would see it in other areas as well. Solving the rusting of the LCA's will not, by itself, solve the rusting problem generally. As for high mileage parts, yes, the repeated cycling and stress is cumulative and will eventually result in failure. But to get to that point requires a lot more mileage on the car then a Delorean typically accumulates. Unless you drive the car daily in New York City. Then all bets are off. Fortunately that involves a very small population of Deloreans. Bottom line, the original Lower Control Arms, although they could be stronger (that can be said for many parts on the car) are not a big source of concern. If you really must worry about something, worry about the trailing arm bolts. Make sure all of the recalls have been done on the front suspension. Inspect the fuseblock frequently for signs of overheatiing. Replace tires over 7 years old and check the pressure at least once a month. Finally get and keep insurance on the car using "Agreed Value". Always wear your seat belt.

[PJ Grady Inc.]

I agree rust is also a problem but that goes for the whole frame too. We have all seen frames that are/were unsafe to drive on. The LCA's will not rust all by themselves. For them to rust out bad enough to be compromised you would see it in other areas as well. Solving the rusting of the LCA's will not, by itself, solve the rusting problem generally. As for high mileage parts, yes, the repeated cycling and stress is cumulative and will eventually result in failure. But to get to that point requires a lot more mileage on the car then a Delorean typically accumulates. Unless you drive the car daily in New York City. Then all bets are off. Fortunately that involves a very small population of Deloreans. Bottom line, the original Lower Control Arms, although they could be stronger (that can be said for many parts on the car) are not a big source of concern. If you really must worry about something, worry about the trailing arm bolts. Make sure all of the recalls have been done on the front suspension. Inspect the fuseblock frequently for signs of overheatiing. Replace tires over 7 years old and check the pressure at least once a month. Finally get and keep insurance on the car using "Agreed Value". Always wear your seat belt.

I don't worry about anything....I just fix the cars! Try to stay on topic as you can't address all the car's issues in one post and even slip in a lecture on insurance. Oh crap I guess you just did;)
Rob

[Flicky]

Might the fattier one you have be a Byrne's LCA? I don't know much about them, but have read they are built thicker (heavier). At $977 a pair I'd probably get the SS ones however.
http://deloreannewparts.com/store/page12.html

I saw a post some time ago where a guy's ball joint failed in a gravel parking lot, but I don't know of any LCA's breaking. The roads around here are 10 turns every mile with 200 foot drops on each side, so the thought of anything breaking loose is unpleasant.

Here is a pic of Ed's brackets (harvested from a 2011 tread on LCAs). Does anyone know if them euro 250+hp guys like Doloman (or whatever his name is) uses these for his "race" car?
http://dmctalk.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=1563&d=1308083969

I have a set of Spittybug's LCA braces, but haven't put them on yet.

[PJ Grady Inc.]

Might the fattier one you have be a Byrne's LCA? I don't know much about them, but have read they are built thicker (heavier). At $977 a pair I'd probably get the SS ones however.
http://deloreannewparts.com/store/page12.html

I saw a post some time ago where a guy's ball joint failed in a gravel parking lot, but I don't know of any LCA's breaking. The roads around here are 10 turns every mile with 200 foot drops on each side, so the thought of anything breaking loose is unpleasant.

Here is a pic of Ed's brackets (harvested from a 2011 tread on LCAs). Does anyone know if them euro 250+hp guys like Doloman (or whatever his name is) uses these for his "race" car?
http://dmctalk.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=1563&d=1308083969

I have a set of Spittybug's LCA braces, but haven't put them on yet.


No Byrne's add about a half a ton of unsprung weight to the suspension which any suspension engineer would say is the wrong way to approach the problem. Like I said that one appears to be one of the slightly beefier units I sold about 15 years ago. They were good but I can't get them anymore. Outright failures of the original arms have historicly been rare but I've seen it happen and the problem will get worse over time, as it has with many previously reliable components, as the cars age further. It pays to have the car inspected by a qualified Delorean specialist at least once every 5 years or so even if it means an inconvienant trip or costly tow. Otherwise surprises can and will happen with more frequency.
Rob Grady

[dn010]

The "upgraded" LCA pictured is definitely heavier and all that, but it doesn't look like Byrne's does in the picture, this one is more clean looking compared to his.

So, I'll go with Rob's notion as it being one that Ken designed 15 years ago and I can no longer find a match for it. Too bad someone wasn't looking for just 1, now I'm stuck with it!

I guess once I have a few adult beverages I'll click "buy" on the stainless LCA kit, and feel good about it for at least a little while LOL!

[dn010]

Also, FWIW, below is a picture of my 2 LCA's that spent the 8+ years in NY, compared to the 1 original LCA from the CA frame. And yes, the NY ones were blasted and POR-15'd at one point .....

32287

[Kherns]

I have seen a friend of ours in France whose LCA broke in front of us.
Luckily when he was parking the car. Ed Uding brackets are a good choice but your LCA have to be
still healthy...or brackets may eat them in the long run.
32288

I have bought his new made LCA. Very pleased with them.