Door leak?

[Lightning]

I've been restoring my Delorean for awhile and it is just about to become my daily driver. I had it out in some rain and noticed a lot of water in the doors when I opened them (car was at a minor angle with the rear being a few degrees lower than the front), there was enough that it was coming through one of the holes used to hole the fir strips resulting in some water in the interior. I can not spot any way for my doors to drain except through the hole that the door light is in. I'm guessing at the moment that most of the water gone in via the minor seal around the toll booth window portion of the window.

My question is two fold, one, what is the best way to keep most water out when driving in the rain as I am in Florida and it will happen and for the water that does get in the door, is there suppose to be an expected way to have it drain prior to getting to the point that it starts leaking through the furstrip hole and into the interior? I'm half tempted to drill a few small holes across the bottom of the door but I don't want to modify the door if I don't have to.

[hmcelraft]

The door should have drain holes in it. Two holes about a quarter inch apart on the outer edge of the door sill 8-10 inches on either side of the bottom light. The outer door edge seal or it's retaining bracket may be covering the drain holes. The factory drain holes are adequate for quite a bit of water if they are not plugged or covered. If a lot of water is getting into the door the window seals may need repaired, adjusted or replaced. I drove my DeLorean a lot when I lived in Florida and in lots of rain. It was amazing to me how many places a DeLorean could leak. It took a while, but I got them all. I found Service Bulletin ST 33-12-81 on water leaks to be very helpful. However, your apparent plugged holes would not be there just as a 1/2 inch gap in sealant at the top of my windshield was not. It only leaked when I was driving in the rain, not idle or sitting - or washing it. That took me a while to figure out.

[Lightning]

Thanks, now I know what to look for as I wasn't seeing any visible holes. Must be covered by something hence the trouble.

[Lightning]

I just took a look, the outer trim has 3 holes in it, two near the edge of the trim and one slit above the light. I'll take it off but feeling from the inside I do not feel any holes near those areas and from the outside just stainless is visible on both doors for all 3 spots on the bottom door trim. I'm referring to part #110721 that sits on the bottom of the door and holds the rubber. Looks like I might be doing some drilling and cutting.

[hmcelraft]

I don't know about the need for drilling? The metal parts are made left and right to accommodate the drain holes - so be sure they are on the correct door. I think originally the rubber pieces were pre-cut when you bought them - doesn't look that way now? I may have cut the holes myself - I can't remember which one I replaced. The rubber pieces may also be different now - I don't remember which was original but, one rubber seal fit OVER the outside of door threshold and one fits on TOP of the door threshold. Either one works well - I have one of each on my car. The metal bracket works with either seal.

[PJ Grady Inc.]

While the concentration of this thread's attention is valid in it's importance once the drains are confirmed to be present and clear I'd suggest removing the upper door interior panel (very simple as many here know) and having a DMC buddy spray water on the stationary glass while you observe from the inside. Water normally drips past the pwr glass edges into the bottom of the door and exiting out the aforementioned drains and that's fine.

What is happening with increasing frequency is the urethane bond of the stationary glass is fatiguing from age and myriad openings/closings. The bond to the stainless break's free and allows water onto the inner panel of the door where the only possible drain is into the interior of your car. You can often see an outline of water stains under the offending area if it's been leaking a long time.While other leaks are possible I would guess that about 2/3 or more of all interior leaks we see in the shop these days are from the stationary glass area...usually the bottom but occasionally the top or sides too.
Rob Grady

[Lightning]

Thank you or the info Grady, I already have the sides off so that will be an easy test to find out. I do know that following the water trail inside the car while the panels were still off showed it coming from the hole that one of the bottom furring strips goes into. I'll pay attention and see if the rest of the glass is pulling away. Is there an easy fix that you recommend in that situation or does it require completely removing and resealing the static window?

[PJ Grady Inc.]

Thank you or the info Grady, I already have the sides off so that will be an easy test to find out. I do know that following the water trail inside the car while the panels were still off showed it coming from the hole that one of the bottom furring strips goes into. I'll pay attention and see if the rest of the glass is pulling away. Is there an easy fix that you recommend in that situation or does it require completely removing and resealing the static window?

First of all call me Rob if you will!

The solution depends on the severity of the breaks in adhesion. Most leaks can be fixed "insitu" or without removal. Generally the adhesion breaks away at the bottom first.

Remove the support channel for the glass and press on the bottom areas of the stat. glass to determine the extent of adhesion loss. If you can push the bottom areas of of the glass inward from the door more than a 1/2 inch then I would suggest removal to get the strongest repair as this is certainly a structural element of the door's proper functioning. I'd suggest leaving that to a pro as there are a few things that can go very wrong here. It needn't be a DMC specialist but a good autoglass shop should be up to the task and they're common enough that you probably attempt it yourself.

However if there is little or no separation then simply clean the affected areas, especially the glass and seal area of dirt if it can be pushed apart, with 3M adhesive cleaner (This is for you Randal B. if you're lurking). Then apply a urethane prep. type cleaner (3M comes to mind) for better bonding. Lastly apply a good quality urethane (3M or similiar again!)) using a cartridge gun as it's the only way you'll find urethane sold (In cartrdges).

Don't forget to wear disposable gloves as you'll need to push the adhesive into the seams with a tool (paint stick's work well and are disposable) or your fingers. Work neatly as urethane is the hardest stuff to clean off things that I can think of. You'll need that 3M cleaner again here so "don't leave home without it". Actually I mean don't enter your garage without it if you're going to mess with urethane! Seriously it's nasty stuff from a cleanup standpoint. Good luck!

Rob Grady

[Lightning]

Thanks again to all for the info, apparently if you install the trim on the wrong door it must be installed upside down resulting in covering the wholes but at first glance appears perfectly normal. Sadly I do not know who did the trim wrong as I swapped doors with another car years ago at Walter Coe's place and I doubt he had done anything with the doors on the car we swapped panels on.

[PJ Grady Inc.]

What probably happened there is 1982 spec seals were installed on 1981 doors which is perfectly fine as that's all that was available as replacements. The drain holes have to be redrilled when that is done however. The way to tell if an 81 has the later sill seals is to note which way the edge of the seal faces. On 81's the edge faces inward whereas the 82-3 edge faces outward.
Rob


Thanks again to all for the info, apparently if you install the trim on the wrong door it must be installed upside down resulting in covering the wholes but at first glance appears perfectly normal. Sadly I do not know who did the trim wrong as I swapped doors with another car years ago at Walter Coe's place and I doubt he had done anything with the doors on the car we swapped panels on.

[Jonathan]

I made this a while back:

http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?7456-How-To-Door-sill-seal-installation-(p-n-110720)

I don't think I was aware of the need for the drain holes at the time though. I'll have to go out and check my own car to see if I inadvertently plugged them with the new seals. The replacements available require you to reuse the metal strips and cut them yourself to fit.

I remember one day coming out of a car wash bay (the do it yourself kind) and when I backed out, there was a little drop so the rear tires went down say 2-3 inches or so while the front tires were still on the elevated wash bay surface. I look over to the passenger door and at the bottom there is this large gush of water just as I was backing up. I think it was the front corner at the bottom, so I wonder if that means water had accumulated down the sides of the door frame or something and had nowhere to go?

Another reason to justify being part of Team "I'm-a-sissy-and-don't-drive-my-car-in-the-rain" perhaps? I think I'm group treasurer this season... :)

[Lightning]

Interesting that you mention that. I looked at another delorean at Eddy's shop, it also has it's drain holes plugged with the weather strip. My case is what Rob pointed out, 81 seal faces inward and someone installed it to face outward resulting in the drain holes being covered. Oddly enough it also had 4 other holes drilled under the seal that were still plugged no matter which way you installed the seal, go figure.

[Jonathan]

Any chance you could post a picture or two of your seals (showing the orientation)? I'm still not convinced I know which way they are really supposed to go on.

I love that we have so many parts available for our old cars, but if I have one beef overall with that, it's that too many replacement parts come with little if any guidance as to what to do with them. I know the brand stays a float at least in part to owners servicing themselves when not in close proximity to an expert shop, but I have frigged up either my car or the replacement part on more than one occasion due to trying to get it installed with my best guess. I can follow instructions really well, but the results are not as pretty when I just have at it and make a few things up as I go along. The number of uninstalled new parts in boxes in my garage is a testament to that unfortunately.

[DMCMW Dave]

I love that we have so many parts available for our old cars, but if I have one beef overall with that, it's that too many replacement parts come with little if any guidance as to what to do with them. .

Try an experiment: Go buy a door seal (or a water pump etc.) from your local Chevy dealer and see how much of an instruction sheet it comes with. And then try getting them to take a mechanic off line from the shop to explain to you how to install it.

Try the same thing at Autozone or NAPA.

The assumption is that the buyer is a trained mechanic, and/or has the factory manuals, but most factory manuals don't go into the realm of straight replacement of broken parts.

The DeLorean world is in many ways a much easier place for do-it-yourselfers than most cars are. I believe more of the parts sold by all the vendors come with instructions than you'd find in most automotive circumstances, and it's typically a lot easier to get access to assistance than it would be on more conventional cars, or even many collector cars. But even the vendors don't typically have the manpower to run a technical writing/publishing department.

[David T]

Any chance you could post a picture or two of your seals (showing the orientation)? I'm still not convinced I know which way they are really supposed to go on.

I love that we have so many parts available for our old cars, but if I have one beef overall with that, it's that too many replacement parts come with little if any guidance as to what to do with them. I know the brand stays a float at least in part to owners servicing themselves when not in close proximity to an expert shop, but I have frigged up either my car or the replacement part on more than one occasion due to trying to get it installed with my best guess. I can follow instructions really well, but the results are not as pretty when I just have at it and make a few things up as I go along. The number of uninstalled new parts in boxes in my garage is a testament to that unfortunately.

As Dave S says, if you are going to go the DIY method you have to be prepared to learn. Each part does not come with an instruction manual. Even the Workshop Manual (as do most manuals) assumes some basic level of automotive knowledge. Each of us who learned either learned it the "hard way", on our on making a lot of mistakes and using up a lot of time and parts, or we were taught and watched and apprenticed by someone who learned things the hard way. This forum (and the Internet as a whole) is the greatest short-cut to years of experience, there was nothing like it for us "old timers". Take advantage of it and appreciate it. As you see in your post the hard way can be expensive too in damaged parts. Don't feel too bad about it, the best mechanics have a trail of parts behind them too. Just now they are better at it and damage less parts in less time. In the medical world they call it "Practice". Doctors don't do doctoring, they practice it. The venders sell parts because they know they can't install every part they sell but I am sure if they checked it probably takes them more time they they want to spend "holding hands" and talking novice's through procedures. In some cases between the parts shipped back and forth and the time on the phone they wind up not making any money at all on some people. They will chalk it up to "goodwill" and hope you will improve and order more parts from them. Think about that the next time you go shopping by price (I am not talking about you in particular). The venders do not stay in business because of parts sales. It is a service and make *some* money at it. It adds to their volume so they can buy parts for the service side of the business at a discount.

[SS Spoiler]

Well stated

[Delorean Industries]

Agreed.

[Lightning]

Any chance you could post a picture or two of your seals (showing the orientation)? I'm still not convinced I know which way they are really supposed to go on.

I love that we have so many parts available for our old cars, but if I have one beef overall with that, it's that too many replacement parts come with little if any guidance as to what to do with them. I know the brand stays a float at least in part to owners servicing themselves when not in close proximity to an expert shop, but I have frigged up either my car or the replacement part on more than one occasion due to trying to get it installed with my best guess. I can follow instructions really well, but the results are not as pretty when I just have at it and make a few things up as I go along. The number of uninstalled new parts in boxes in my garage is a testament to that unfortunately.

Sorry for the delay, here is a pic. Notice the orientation of the flap and the opening on my door that now lines up.

32373

[PJ Grady Inc.]

Sorry for the delay, here is a pic. Notice the orientation of the flap and the opening on my door that now lines up.

32373

That's the 82-3 replacement seal which superceded the 81 design. The 81 style faced into the car and usually would deform against the rocker with sections bending in both directions. Not too good for longevity nor appearance. They always looked "knackered" as they say across the pond.
Rob

[BABIS]

That's the 82-3 replacement seal which superceded the 81 design. The 81 style faced into the car and usually would deform against the rocker with sections bending in both directions. Not too good for longevity nor appearance. They always looked "knackered" as they say across the pond.
Rob

oh well when I replaced those seals in my '81 I remounted them in the same way - D'OH