laugh, cry, drink?.........old problem reappears

[penciltester]

Hey everybody


Been awhile since I have been lurking about. You guys are always a big help so here we go.

My car has been setting in a garage over the winter. My dad and I had it up on jack stands replacing a blown slave cylinder. After replacing it, hope to never do that again, we let it down off the jack stands. To my aggravation the thing will not start, normally. Plug swap will get her going but remove the plug and she immediately dies. Same thing happened to previous owner before I purchased it from him. Up on stands then off stands wont start. Then all of the sudden it did. Now it's doing the same thing.

I have removed the main line off of the FD and placed in a jar. Prime the pump and I get fuel.

Thermo time switch is working. All relays were replaced before I started driving it last year.

I have a new pump/sending combo and I have a new fuel distributor. Both from DMC Midwest.

Would a malfunctioning frequency valve be the issue? Could it be the main ground at the trailing arm coming loose? Don't know if the up on jack stands then back down would effect that ground or not.

I was having a hot start problem, could a completely failed fuel accumulator be the issue?

Your help/ advice is always appreciated. I'm about to break open a bottle of Redbreast.

Thanks in advance

[Bitsyncmaster]

First thing I always check is fuel pump pressure. Did it start after you replaced the fuel pump and FD last year?

[DMC5180]

Hey everybody


Been awhile since I have been lurking about. You guys are always a big help so here we go.

My car has been setting in a garage over the winter. My dad and I had it up on jack stands replacing a blown slave cylinder. After replacing it, hope to never do that again, we let it down off the jack stands. To my aggravation the thing will not start, normally. Plug swap will get her going but remove the plug and she immediately dies. Same thing happened to previous owner before I purchased it from him. Up on stands then off stands wont start. Then all of the sudden it did. Now it's doing the same thing.

I have removed the main line off of the FD and placed in a jar. Prime the pump and I get fuel.

Thermo time switch is working. All relays were replaced before I started driving it last year.

I have a new pump/sending combo and I have a new fuel distributor. Both from DMC Midwest.

Would a malfunctioning frequency valve be the issue? Could it be the main ground at the trailing arm coming loose? Don't know if the up on jack stands then back down would effect that ground or not.

I was having a hot start problem, could a completely failed fuel accumulator be the issue?

Your help/ advice is always appreciated. I'm about to break open a bottle of Redbreast.

Thanks in advance

Frequency valve. No
Failed accumulator. Possibly, but it would have to be so bad that minimum rest pressure is not attainable. Doing the plug swap only holds the CS injector open so that even 10 psi will allow the engine to run.

Trailing arm ground, No assuming the engine is turning over and just not firing.

Remote possibility. Check your ISM operation. Swing the CS injector brass tube towards the rear of the car, it will move about 5/8 inch and remove the connector hose from the ISM. Look in the ISM port and see if the valve is open. If it's closed the engine will be starved of idle air and won't run. To verify valve operation turn the key to the run position. Then quickly look in the valve to see if it pops open. It will then slowly close over a 4-5 second time span. If you hear the ISM humming or feel it vibrating but not opening is could be stuck/frozen in the closed position. You mention that the car did not run right with the PO. That much time sitting could definitely have an effect on the ISM.

As Dave mentions, you should do a fuel pressure check to see where your at, but that requires a pressure test gauge that you probably don't have at this point.

[Jonathan]

Check the electrical connections on the ballast resistor and ignition coil.

[David T]

Check the electrical connections on the ballast resistor and ignition coil.

If it starts and runs "normally" with the cold start valve open it means somehow the mixture is way too lean. Two problems here, first one, the cold start valve is not opening as it should so the car will at least start. Easy to check, pull the valve out and see if sprays into a cup when starting cold. Problem #2, it won't keep running cold. Sounds like a bad connection to the frequency valve. Take the plug off of it and put it back on several times to clean the connections. make sure it is buzzing while the motor is running. Why it acts up after jacking it up, I do not have an answer.

[penciltester]

Sorry for the confusion. The new fuel distributor and pump/ sender combo was just installed. After pulling the old pump, when this little problem happened, I noticed some particulate at the bottom of the tank. It was a special T pump and it had particulate in its filter. I then pulled the line off the WUR and noticed the screen was half covered with gunk. I pulled the lines on the distributor and 3 out of six screens had junk on them.

I had a malfunctioning sender giving me a bad fuel gauge read so I splurged and bought the sender/pump combo. And for peace of mind, a new FD. I did a thorough tank clean before install. Refilled with 5 gallons of good gas.

We checked the bulkhead connections and coil connection.

Just out of curiosity where does the fuel pump ground?

I will check the ISM tonight.

I have access to a fuel pressure gauge. Where do you suggest I hook it into the system.

Thanks again guys

[DMC5180]

Do you have a shop manual? Your fuel pressure gauge must be a type that is configured for K-jet banjo fittings. Not just a pressure gauge.

I did not see you mentioning replacement of the frame fuel filter. Have you done that?

[Jonathan]

Sorry for the confusion. The new fuel distributor and pump/ sender combo was just installed. After pulling the old pump, when this little problem happened, I noticed some particulate at the bottom of the tank. It was a special T pump and it had particulate in its filter. I then pulled the line off the WUR and noticed the screen was half covered with gunk. I pulled the lines on the distributor and 3 out of six screens had junk on them.

I had a malfunctioning sender giving me a bad fuel gauge read so I splurged and bought the sender/pump combo. And for peace of mind, a new FD. I did a thorough tank clean before install. Refilled with 5 gallons of good gas.

In the future, it would be a good idea to include these kinds of details in your original problem description. ^This is kinda important stuff to know when trying to help through a keyboard alone.

[penciltester]

Sorry, your absolutely right. Will do from now on.

[Horsebox]

Fuel pump is grounded via the inertia switch in the diagram below. I've never been able to physically even see this junction, let alone get at it. I believe you would have to turn yourself upside down with your head in the drivers footwell to stand a chance of finding it. To be honest it sounds like this isn't your problem anyway. If your car ran OK with the Hervey pump then there's no reason it won't run with the new pump. If you really want to eliminate the pump ground as a possible problem then unplug the connector plugging into the inertia switch and use a spade terminal to directly ground the black wire on the harness connector.

Sounds like your mixture is way off with this new fuel distributor. As someone else said you will need to get the fuel pressures checked.



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[Bitsyncmaster]

When you replace an FD, you most likely have to adjust the mixture. The FDs are not that closely matched but someone may have adjusted the mixture before you owned the car and who knows if they knew what they were doing. The same goes for changing the warmup regulator.

[DMCMW Dave]

See if you can keep it running by applying SLIGHT pressure on the metal flap on the intake. That will richen it up and it may run. If it does, that just proves needing the CO adjustment. Which it needs about 99% of the time you replace the fuel distributor.

[PJ Grady Inc.]

Sounds like you guys have it nailed with setting up the CO if the car hasn't started since the distributor was put in. Of course that's assuming all is well with the new pump installation.

Here's a setup tip...unclip the #3 injector (easiest to reach) from the cyl head and stick it in a fuel safe cup or container to check the fuel flow pattern. Disconnect the coil wire to disable ignition. Have someone crank the motor without touching the gas pedal and see if you can see a small spray of fuel. If there is no spray it's too lean.

Using a 3mm (T handle preferred so you can count turns better) Allen wrench turn in clockwise while cranking motor until you can just see the injector starting to spray fuel. Reinstall injector and coil wire and crank engine again. If it's not flooded from previous pedal pumping it should fire right up and should be at least close to the correct adjustment. You can then tune "by ear" for a smooth idle but a dwellmeter or emissions tester will give you the best results.

Conversely if it's too rich and sprays a heavy pattern when cranking you're too rich and will have to adjust counterclockwise to make it run. In this case though it's usually necessary to pull your gas fouled plugs first to clean or replace them or it still won't start.

Another tip....if the distributor and tank was bad your injectors, WUR, and accumulator are suspect too especially if they are original.
Rob Grady

[penciltester]

Thanks again everybody.

I have a proper pressure gauge heading my way.

Hey Dave, this is Chris Collins. I've been calling you guys alot trying to figure this out. Thought I would give you guys a rest from my endless rambling questions. Also thanks for shipping fed ex. Parts got to my house Saturday midday. Might not have been the issue im dealing with but it does give me peace of mind.

The car ran until I blew a slave cylinder in autumn. It sat in my dads garage for the winter and we put it on jack stands changed the cylinder. Let her down. Won't run. Previous owner had the same issue, let it down off jackstands wouldn't run, but then suddenly it just worked.

The issue started with the old pump still installed.

I have not changed the fuel filter yet.

[Horsebox]

I don't know what your climate is like but as the weather warms up it might be more likely to run. You say it ran OK when last used in the autumn, presumably it was warmer then than it is now where you are. Sounds like you are running too lean if pulling the power to the CSV stops the engine. You could try running the engine with the plug swap until it warms up as it will be more tolerant of a lean mixture as it gets near to operating temp. Might even be able to drive it...

[penciltester]

Yeah if I an get it running ,at all, I need to go 2 miles down the road to a buddies house who has a lift and change the accumulator, fuel filter, adjust the parking brake, change the oil.

I need to check the ISM, make sure my FV is buzzing, check my injectors. hook up my gauges and adjust mixture screw.

My mixture screw has never been adjusted on this car. Its still covered up. If I remember right, you screw a sheet metal screw into the little covering and just yank it out correct? Any suggestions on what to use to plug the whole after adjusting the screw?

Thanks again everybody and thanks again to the people at DMC Midwest. They are always courteous and swift with the shipping.

[penciltester]

Was able to check two things last night.

If I do the plug swap, get it running, depress mixture plate a little, pull the plug, it will keep running. Not great but it will keep running. If I give the plate to much pressure the car bottoms out and dies.

If the frequency valve is buzzing then it must be at a pitch only dogs can hear. No buzz while running or with the key turned. I do have noticeable vibration and buzzing from the CSV plug when I dont do the swap.

Once again guys thanks for all the help with this.

[DMC5180]

When you press the flap too much it will die because the throttle plates are still closed. You flood the engine dead. Remember the flap only reacts to atmospheric pressure rushing in which is regulated by the throttle plate position or idle air bypass through the ISM.

It does sound like you need to set your CO adjustment. Trying the method Rob mentioned with injector 3 sounds like a good place to start.

[Bitsyncmaster]

When the engine is cold, the FV should be running at a fixed 50% duty cycle which is the loudest buzz you should hear. With the engine running sometimes you need to use a "stethoscope". I use a wood dowel or big screw driver touching the FV and other end touch my hand which is on my ear.