True that earlier models are higher quality?

[Redsquall]

Or what?

[Delorean Industries]

Highest quality are Oct 81 builds. I have determined this after years of researching the subject.

[Ron]

Highest quality are Oct 81 builds. I have determined this after years of researching the subject.
Curious as to what the main issues between them were??

[Lou and "Boo"]

I'm curios too. It just so happens mine is an Oct 81 build. (5835) At least it's got something going for it.

[Delorean Industries]

Long list that would take a very long time to write out. While I own cars from every range I only collect 5000 series vins.

In short early cars are filled with well known issues. In my professional opinion late cars feel "hollow". Almost incomplete....

[Patrick C]

It all depends on how the cars have been maintained over the past 34 years. To make a generalized statement that one build month is a better one than another is ridiculous at this stage of the game. A good service record is far more important to me.

[Delorean Industries]

I'm stating this by comparing what they originally were/the potential they hold to be brought back.
IE taking a low vin car, oct build and late car highly original back to back. Oct wins.

[Patrick C]

Everyone is going to have an opinion. Factory workers have gone on record saying the best built cars were the last ones off the line when production had stopped and managers were completing them.

I think the best buying advice is to go for the nicest, well-maintained car you can get your hands on.

[Lou and "Boo"]

Long list that would take a very long time to write out. While I own cars from every range I only collect 5000 series vins.

In short early cars are filled with well known issues. In my professional opinion late cars feel "hollow". Almost incomplete....



Josh, what do you mean by "hollow" and "incomplete" ? What's missing on the later cars?

[Ron]

Long list that would take a very long time to write out. I thought you might say that...why I said "main issues" :p
How about the top 3?

[DMC5180]

What josh is saying, is that a lot of the issues of the early build cars were finally being addressed and incorporated into the cars by October of 81. Production issues were being ironed out at the factory. It wasn't to long after that that the lay offs began and the late build cars were being assembled with odds and end parts. A good example were the 83 two tone interiors.

I guess I should feel privileged to have an Oct 81 build car. Btw it's not just Josh saying this. Stephen Wynn told me the same thing many years ago.

[OverlandMan]

I thought I remember reading that the final cars to be built were some of the highest quality.

That said, my Oct 81 build must have been built on a Friday around 4:30 in the afternoon and I suspect at least 3 of the workers were on their 3rd Guinness. :cheers1:

[dn010]

I can tell you that very early frames are different then later ones, I have frame #308 from vin ...712 and it has rivets on the bottom plate under the engine cradle. Not sure if this is considered "higher quality" but to me it seems more sound than my last frame. Then of course, my last frame was junk to begin with...

And yes, I guess I'm glad to be part of the "Oct 81" build group after reading this thread.

[AugustneverEnds]

34 years is the great equalizer and previous owners are what tilts a car towards better or worse IMHO

[Dangermouse]

While I respect Josh's knowledge of the cars, he is clearly biased in this matter. It is well known that the most desirable cars are from August 81, peaking around the middle of the 27xx series cars :p

Seriously though, surely it is a moot point after all these years. A well sorted & maintained 1xxx series (or 10xxx series) car is much better in virtually every respect than a ran-when-parked all-original 5xxx car. Assuming, of course, that the aim is to drive the car rather than collect it.

[Jonathan]

It all depends on how the cars have been maintained over the past 34 years. To make a generalized statement that one build month is a better one than another is ridiculous at this stage of the game. A good service record is far more important to me.


34 years is the great equalizer and previous owners are what tilts a car towards better or worse IMHO


Seriously though, surely it is a moot point after all these years. A well sorted & maintained 1xxx series (or 10xxx series) car is much better in virtually every respect than a ran-when-parked all-original 5xxx car. Assuming, of course, that the aim is to drive the car rather than collect it.

Agreed.

It might have originally been that later cars came off the line in better shape once the factory figured out the problems, but 34 years later, with all the known problems having known solutions, it's much more a function of how well yours was taken care of, stored, or restored.

[Rich_NYS]

IE taking a low vin car, oct build and late car highly original back to back. Oct wins.


Looks to me like Josh is saying that in an "apples-apples" comparison with other builds, he's seen better quality with the Oct. 81's. Seems like it would be an easy observation to make for any of the vendors that have seen so many cars in various conditions.

He's not comparing a maintained car with a non-maintained car, and I do believe that in any field of expertise you develop a "feel" for certain things. A lot of us work in technology, and for the little sense that it makes, I'm sure I'm not the only one who can sometimes "feel" what isn't right in the matrix.

All that said, I just happen to have an Oct. '81 on the way, brah! :rock_on:

[louielouie2000]

October '81 was the peak production month for the DMC-12. DMCL was cranking out 80 cars per day- nearly 1/5 of all DeLoreans were produced that month. DMCL had the largest & best trained staff of the company's history. The factory and it's workers were a well oiled machine at that point. They had ironed out most of the production kinks of the early production runs. Spirits were high as the massive production cuts and layoffs had not yet begun. In other words, October was the peak before everything went over the cliff.

[PJ Grady Inc.]

Sorry Josh but I disagree with you here. Since even the factory workers said the last cars were the best I think that should carry some weight.
I have probably driven more individual Deloreans than anyone else in the world. My service files begin with the restoration of VIN 502 (Despite what another vendor has claimed in the past until I "corrected" him) to VIN 020101. I just counted my service files in the top drawer of a four drawer file cabinet and there are 191 in that drawer. The other drawers are equally stuffed so if I can assume they hold about the same that would bring the rough total to to about 764 cars. Most contain multiple repair orders and service visits.

I have a number of customers that have been with me for 34 years. One of them has about 230K miles on her odometer and the car is still going strong.
Her file is over an inch thick and encompass's accidents, engine, and auto trans replacements and many mantainence visits. She always came in at the slighest hint of a problem. I've roadtested that one car at least several hundred times. You wouldn't want to pay all the bills in that file!!!! Alas she just moved the car to Florida so now I've lost two of my oldest customers to the "Sunshine state" recently with a third "oldtimer"snowbird due to retire down south in the next few years.

I've also attended numerous Delorean shows and tech events where I've inspected and road tested many hundreds more different VIN's. I've probably driven about twenty percent of the Delorean's ever built with many thousands of individual roadtests. I've planted my butt in more Delorean's more times than perhaps anyone else on the planet! Every DMC that comes through my shop gets driven by myself on arrivel, after repairs/service, and again just before leaving. In short I am the "E.F.Hutton" of Delorean roadtesters. Do you want to know what I think? I'll tell you anyway!

By my "seat of the pants" the cars that seem most "incomplete" and "hollow" are the earliest VIN's but the build quality and refinement levels rose steadily throughout the 81' production run into the 82's and include the "orphan car" 83's that were finished by the supervisor's. I believe a few 83's were even completed here in the states by Jerry Rine at Kapac. That does not mean I don't like the early cars however as they have their own "personlities" and feel. They do however require a lot more attention and updating to approach the latter's build quality and reliability. I especially find the 500 to 1000 car's fascinating with their myriad individual differences and one off parts. A book could be written on these alone...right Tony Swann? Maybe one day we could?

My all time favorite Delorean was my Concour's winning 83' manual trans, black on grey interior car. It was solid as a rock and felt as good or better to me than almost any other Delorean I've ever tested. Of course I lavished a lot of attention on it but is was a great car as I let it go to a very good home in December of 2012 for a bargain price of 54K. I hardly ever got a chance to drive it and the circumstances seemed right at the time. But I miss that car and will one day replace it.

I still have the "Green Machine" to drive and and use as a rolling testbed for our latest products many of which you will see this year for the first time. I do agree that the better cars began aound 5000 but I think the overall build quality continued to rise right up through the end of production.
The 82's & 3's did suffer in one aspect over the late 81's and that is that some "blem parts" with cosmetic issues were used as the money ran dry at the factory. In most other aspects of build quality however I say the later the better. That's my two cents to what could become a very contentious thread. I rest my case.... besides it's time for another roadtest!
Rob Grady



I'm stating this by comparing what they originally were/the potential they hold to be brought back.
IE taking a low vin car, oct build and late car highly original back to back. Oct wins.

[krs09]

Yay! I have a Oct '81 (04870)

[DavidProehl]

Highest quality are Oct 81 builds. I have determined this after years of researching the subject.

I don't have the experience to argue with Grady (I've only driven 5 DeLoreans), but I've been very pleased with my Oct 81 car! Good to hear Oct 81s have someone's vote other than mine!

[Iznodmad]

Though I'm not a vendor, I feel like I have something to contribute here. I have owned 4 different DeLoreans, in order... #5000 (driven apporox 20,000 miles since purchased), #16128 (driven approx 35,000 miles since purchase), #905 (drove approx 10,000 miles when I had it and no longer own it), and now #888 (driven approx 15 miles since purchase, just got it last week). Only 905 was "refurbished" before I purchased it, the others were purchased nearly bone stock and upgraded (except 888, it retains most originality). The fit and finish of the early cars is terrible. Though both of my early cars are considered "good" for being early, they still are not up to the standards of my other later two. Despite my "nit-picking/anal" tendencies:hihi2:, I enjoy the character of the early cars and can mostly overlook the additional "problems" they have. I spent the last weekend going over my new purchase. I finally got back into my late build car on Monday driving to work and was amazed at how well it is put together, drives, and feels in comparison. My October build car is also exceptional, right up there with my late build. Time has changed all the cars, there is no doubt. But I mostly agree that early cars are not the best put together overall, and most builds from 5000 and up were originally built better.

[Delorean Industries]

I"m pulling you out of the running of individuals that can accurate report on this subject Darren. Your cars are way to innovated, refined/reliable for too long of a period for you to accurate remember a true comparison. Sorry... Your cars are just too nice.

[Lou and "Boo"]

Looks to me like Josh is saying that in an "apples-apples" comparison with other builds, he's seen better quality with the Oct. 81's. Seems like it would be an easy observation to make for any of the vendors that have seen so many cars in various conditions.

He's not comparing a maintained car with a non-maintained car, and I do believe that in any field of expertise you develop a "feel" for certain things. A lot of us work in technology, and for the little sense that it makes, I'm sure I'm not the only one who can sometimes "feel" what isn't right in the matrix.

All that said, I just happen to have an Oct. '81 on the way, brah! :rock_on:

Well said sir.

Oh, and about your Oct. 81 manual shift arriving soon ....... YEAH BOY !!!!

[Lou and "Boo"]

Sorry Josh but I disagree with you here. Since even the factory workers said the last cars were the best I think that should carry some weight.
I have probably driven more individual Deloreans than anyone else in the world. My service files begin with the restoration of VIN 502 (Despite what another vendor has claimed in the past until I "corrected" him) to VIN 020101. I just counted my service files in the top drawer of a four drawer file cabinet and there are 191 in that drawer. The other drawers are equally stuffed so if I can assume they hold about the same that would bring the rough total to to about 764 cars. Most contain multiple repair orders and service visits.

I have a number of customers that have been with me for 34 years. One of them has about 230K miles on her odometer and the car is still going strong.
Her file is over an inch thick and encompass's accidents, engine, and auto trans replacements and many mantainence visits. She always came in at the slighest hint of a problem. I've roadtested that one car at least several hundred times. You wouldn't want to pay all the bills in that file!!!! Alas she just moved the car to Florida so now I've lost two of my oldest customers to the "Sunshine state" recently with a third "oldtimer"snowbird due to retire down south in the next few years.

I've also attended numerous Delorean shows and tech events where I've inspected and road tested many hundreds more different VIN's. I've probably driven about twenty percent of the Delorean's ever built with many thousands of individual roadtests. I've planted my butt in more Delorean's more times than perhaps anyone else on the planet! Every DMC that comes through my shop gets driven by myself on arrivel, after repairs/service, and again just before leaving. In short I am the "E.F.Hutton" of Delorean roadtesters. Do you want to know what I think? I'll tell you anyway!

By my "seat of the pants" the cars that seem most "incomplete" and "hollow" are the earliest VIN's but the build quality and refinement levels rose steadily throughout the 81' production run into the 82's and include the "orphan car" 83's that were finished by the supervisor's. I believe a few 83's were even completed here in the states by Jerry Rine at Kapac. That does not mean I don't like the early cars however as they have their own "personlities" and feel. They do however require a lot more attention and updating to approach the latter's build quality and reliability. I especially find the 500 to 1000 car's fascinating with their myriad individual differences and one off parts. A book could be written on these alone...right Tony Swann? Maybe one day we could?

My all time favorite Delorean was my Concour's winning 83' manual trans, black on grey interior car. It was solid as a rock and felt as good or better to me than almost any other Delorean I've ever tested. Of course I lavished a lot of attention on it but is was a great car as I let it go to a very good home in December of 2012 for a bargain price of 54K. I hardly ever got a chance to drive it and the circumstances seemed right at the time. But I miss that car and will one day replace it.

I still have the "Green Machine" to drive and and use as a rolling testbed for our latest products many of which you will see this year for the first time. I do agree that the better cars began aound 5000 but I think the overall build quality continued to rise right up through the end of production.
The 82's & 3's did suffer in one aspect over the late 81's and that is that some "blem parts" with cosmetic issues were used as the money ran dry at the factory. In most other aspects of build quality however I say the later the better. That's my two cents to what could become a very contentious thread. I rest my case.... besides it's time for another roadtest!
Rob Grady


Now that's a man who has every right to have a big Delorean ego!

Kudos to Rob !

[Lou and "Boo"]

. Sorry... Your cars are just too nice.



Reminds me of the quote from Huey Lewis:

"Sorry fellas, I'm afraid you're just too darn loud."

(As can be seen on my rear fascia after installing headers to turbo mufflers)

[Delorean Industries]

Rob you sided with my exact argument! Those are the exact factors that I am taking into account. Especially the decline period as the funding ran dry and blemished components etc came into play. I see this as a major factor against a later car vs. earlier/mid production. My assessment is based not only on a feel from the number I have encountered, the factory condition for manufacturing but also the complete tear down and overhaul which you have seen first hand on a large scale here. You know I have taken this to an extreme nut and bolt restoring every car possible on a manufacturing type scale at this point. I have gained a unique understanding of the quality not only from a servicing point of view but the assembly as a whole. With that said I know I can make any car fit the Oct build standard from a mechanical standpoint across the board. This isn't the case with cosmetics though without major time and energy invested. Back to my original statement. I collect what I know long term I can quickly restore with ease and market successfully when the values go through the roof.

[Patrick C]

Highest quality are Oct 81 builds. I have determined this after years of researching the subject.


Sorry Josh but I disagree with you here. Since even the factory workers said the last cars were the best I think that should carry some weight.


My all time favorite Delorean was my Concour's winning 83' manual trans, black on grey interior car. It was solid as a rock and felt as good or better to me than almost any other Delorean I've ever tested. Of course I lavished a lot of attention on it but is was a great car as I let it go to a very good home in December of 2012 for a bargain price of 54K. I hardly ever got a chance to drive it and the circumstances seemed right at the time. But I miss that car and will one day replace it.



Rob you sided with my exact argument! Those are the exact factors that I am taking into account.

:confused::dunno:

[Delorean Industries]

I think we both failed at expressing ourselves to a degree. After a quick phone call we are generally on the same page. I think that we both weight some of the smaller finer points to a higher level than stated in our posts.

[Nicholas R]

Since this whole thread seems to be about personal preference, I'm just going to say: Team June 81 Is No.1! :biggrin:

[Tillsy]

Even Nick Sutton has stated from his actual experience at the plant that October/November where when everything about the car, parts, production, and even staff were finally up to speed and at their bet.

However, overall that no longer particularly matters but it just shows in various aspects of the car.

[Hokie]

Rob you sided with my exact argument! Those are the exact factors that I am taking into account. Especially the decline period as the funding ran dry and blemished components etc came into play. I see this as a major factor against a later car vs. earlier/mid production. My assessment is based not only on a feel from the number I have encountered, the factory condition for manufacturing but also the complete tear down and overhaul which you have seen first hand on a large scale here. You know I have taken this to an extreme nut and bolt restoring every car possible on a manufacturing type scale at this point. I have gained a unique understanding of the quality not only from a servicing point of view but the assembly as a whole. With that said I know I can make any car fit the Oct build standard from a mechanical standpoint across the board. This isn't the case with cosmetics though without major time and energy invested. Back to my original statement. I collect what I know long term I can quickly restore with ease and market successfully when the values go through the roof.

Josh, just out of curiosity, did I read this correctly? If I did, then not only do you perform repair work, performance upgrades and sell parts, but you also have your own personal collection that you plan to sell "when the values go through the roof?" If you don't mind sharing, how many cars are in your collection, and, when do you think (if you had to guess) the values will take off? Thanks.

[Delorean Industries]

Hokie,
Give me this evening to type out a well though response to this in detail. That way nothing is over looked and my long term intentions which are clearly becoming more and more evident are known to all completely.

Rest assured face palms, gasps, fist shakes,, smiles and applause will follow.

One last thing.... tears of joy.

[PJ Grady Inc.]

Did I come off that way...my bad!!! I detest oversized ego's. When my dad used to say "there's an ass for every seat" I failed to realize he might have been referring to me ;)


Now that's a man who has every right to have a big Delorean ego!

Kudos to Rob !

[PJ Grady Inc.]

I see your point Patrick!!!!



:confused::dunno:

[Lou and "Boo"]

Rob, I didnt mean that in any bad way. You are THE most experienced delorean person, hands down. I think everyone can agree to that.

[Hokie]

Hokie,
Give me this evening to type out a well though response to this in detail. That way nothing is over looked and my long term intentions which are clearly becoming more and more evident are known to all completely.

Rest assured face palms, gasps, fist shakes,, smiles and applause will follow.

One last thing.... tears of joy.

Wow! I can't tell if you're messing with me or if you're planning on making a major announcement. Either way, you have my (our) attention! :) No matter what, best wishes!

[Delorean Industries]

Wow! I can't tell if you're messing with me or if you're planning on making a major announcement. Either way, you have my (our) attention! :) No matter what, best wishes!

major announcement. I allowed someone to see a little too much behind the scenes and they mentioned it to a few people. At this point I would rather be the one to say it to keep it from being misconstrued.

[refugeefromcalif]

This thread is Very interesting. :meditation:
I've sat in 4 DeLoreans and driven 2.
I love my car even if it isn't a 5***/Oct build... :hihi2:
I still want to find out the Day it was built in Nov. 81.

George

[Rich_NYS]

At this point I would rather be the one to say it to keep it from being misconstrued.

I like that...always better not to let someone else pull the pin on yer grenade, brah! :thumbup2:

[? ? ? ?]

I was discussing this very topic with Danny Botkin recently. He said he always felt the later 82's and 83's were when things finally started to come together.

He also said he felt the factory workers worked hard on the later cars because they were hoping the factory would remain open.

[David T]

Since this whole thread seems to be about personal preference, I'm just going to say: Team June 81 Is No.1! :biggrin:

Everything Rob and Josh has said is irrefutable with ONE BIG caveat! After all of these years it really doesn't matter so much how any particular car left the factory. How it has (or has not) been cared for over all of the years is now the bigger factor. In 2015 it is how well a car has been treated more than how well it was made. If all of the recalls and service bulletins have been done, if every problem has been fixed, if maintenance has been done regularly, the only differences will be quirky cosmetic things of small consequence. The big things did not change over the course of the production run like the frame, drivetrain, most of the engine systems, and suspension. Of course there are also the peculiar individual differences between any 2 cars but only an expert will notice the subtleties (feeling hollow, solid, etc). Another point, even though the early cars may not have been built as well as later ones, the QAC centers were supposed to fix up the defects so theoretically they should all have been delivered to dealers in roughly the same level of quality. Even with that being said the QAC centers probably got better and better so the first, early cars were probably sent out in less than optimum condition. The first, early cars also sustained the most shipping damage till they perfected their handling techniques. One reason DMC had to make a hand-out of instructions on how to transport the car for the towers. As for the what I call the "left-overs" the 82's that had to be called '83's, they are custom built put togethers with mix and match parts, each with it's own personality since they were not built like the rest of the production built cars. In some respects they were the best built but in other ways not so much. The general statement of the Oct-Nov 81 build cars being among the best is for the most part true (at least as they left the factory). I also think it was the period of highest production.

[Tillsy]

This thread is Very interesting. :meditation:
I've sat in 4 DeLoreans and driven 2.
I love my car even if it isn't a 5***/Oct build... :hihi2:
I still want to find out the Day it was built in Nov. 81.

George

I found my date written inside one of my doors near the mirror switch (amongst other things like a large plant drawn inside my right front fender)

[David T]

I found my date written inside one of my doors near the mirror switch (amongst other things like a large plant drawn inside my right front fender)

The build date is on the plate in the door jamb. The date you found is most likely the date the door was assembled. Not necessarily the same as the car build date.

[Farrar]

My car has an August '81 build plate, but was processed at QAC and I've found some parts installed dated Nov. '81. I guess that means my car is a piece of shit.

Oh, wait ... it is, but not for that reason. ;)

[Tillsy]

The build date is on the plate in the door jamb. The date you found is most likely the date the door was assembled. Not necessarily the same as the car build date.

That plate has a month, not an exact date.

I have several other scribbles scattered around my car that have the same date as that writen inside my door so appears pretty accurate.

[DavidProehl]

That plate has a month, not an exact date.

I have several other scribbles scattered around my car that have the same date as that writen inside my door so appears pretty accurate.


I've only found one date on mine, at least I assume it is a date:
http://dmctalk.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=33436&stc=1

April 3, 1981 (assume DD.MM.YY notation). This was behind my heater box. I have an Oct 81 build according to the vin plate. Haven't found other dates yet, but I haven't had body panels off yet.

[flux3d]

So if October and November 81 are the best months what about those of us with December cars? Is it a case of the rot had started, or maybe too much turkey and sherry leading to poor festive quality.

[kings1527]

That plate has a month, not an exact date.

I have several other scribbles scattered around my car that have the same date as that writen inside my door so appears pretty accurate.

The company was producing 80-90 cars per day during October and November, if memory serves. So I'd think that date serves as a build date from the ground up since it was put together in a day, most likely.

[louielouie2000]

So if October and November 81 are the best months what about those of us with December cars? Is it a case of the rot had started, or maybe too much turkey and sherry leading to poor festive quality.

Having owned both October '81 and December '81 cars, I don't really feel this is true. If anything, I always felt my December '81 car was put together a little more solidly, even though it was in a poorer state of restoration. My December car was definitely quieter, smoother, and more solid over bumps than my October car. I attribute that to several factors, though. My December car had about 1/3 the mileage of my October car; the December car benefitted from the additional insulation '82 & '83 models were fitted with; and my October car had a "chop & swap" springs while my December car had stock suspension. Still, there are other aspects which cannot be covered by these factors. Such as the fact that my whole car rattled when the cooling fans came on in my October car; they were nearly imperceptible in my December car. I think panel fitment and door operation only got better with each car built, too.

That being said, these cars are famous for their erratic build quality. Combine this with the wildly varying styles of maintenance, usage, and restoration these cars have been subjected to over the past 3 decades, and it's a little tough to make blanket statements about build quality. Outside the first 2,000-3,000 cars completed- build quality of any DeLorean in 2015 is a bit of a crapshoot.

[DMCMW Dave]

Combine this with the wildly varying styles of maintenance, usage, and restoration these cars have been subjected to over the past 3 decades, and it's a little tough to make blanket statements about build quality. Outside the first 2,000-3,000 cars completed- build quality of any DeLorean in 2015 is a bit of a crapshoot.

I totally agree - it may have made a difference when new, but this far out environmental factors are much more important. Judge prospective cars as individuals and history, not based solely on one factor such as build date. Sort of like people.

[Dangermouse]

I've only found one date on mine, at least I assume it is a date:
http://dmctalk.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=33436&stc=1

April 3, 1981 (assume DD.MM.YY notation). This was behind my heater box. I have an Oct 81 build according to the vin plate. Haven't found other dates yet, but I haven't had body panels off yet.

What is that grey part that it is written on David? I haven't had my heater box off, so I don't recognize it.

[PJ Grady Inc.]

That is the fiberglass ductwork added on via epoxy to channel water outside and duct fresh air into the HVIC system in the car.
Rob


What is that grey part that it is written on David? I haven't had my heater box off, so I don't recognize it.