Anti seize on Bosch HR6DS spark plugs?

[DMC-81]

Hi there,

I have read that you should install spark plugs dry due to the risk of changing torque specs and increasing the electrical resistance. My question is, has anyone had problems with a Bosch spark plug seizing in the aluminum head?

I appreciate any tips or advice.

Thanks

[AugustneverEnds]

I changed mine about 2 years ago. After removal, I could see some corrosion build on the threads but none of plugs gave me any difficulty. Been using anti-seize for years on aluminum and iron engines with zero problems related to spark.

[Delorean Industries]

Spark plugs should be installed dry especially on a thread that is slightly contaminated as with most DeLorean engines. The anti seize will pick up the contaminates and push into the threads in concentration. Only time you could use a little is if the heads are freshly cleaned after a valve job etc.

[David T]

Spark plugs should be installed dry especially on a thread that is slightly contaminated as with most DeLorean engines. The anti seize will pick up the contaminates and push into the threads in concentration. Only time you could use a little is if the heads are freshly cleaned after a valve job etc.

I have to disagree with you on this. When screwing steel spark plugs into an aluminum head you ALWAYS use Never-Seize. Too big a chance of removing the threads when removing the spark plugs especially if they are in a long time. The torque spec is supposed to allow for using Never Seize.

[Delorean Industries]

You are absolutely wrong on this and should consult SAE documentation on electrode body use in high aluminum content engine applications. Think Ford 5.4 3v issues.

Bosch HR6DS plugs use what is known as Trivalent plating. This silver/chrome type finish works as a corrosion prohibiting layer against moisture and chemical contact. (IE the combustion process) This is also the primary releasing agent when removing a seated plug from a cylinder head.

[Bitsyncmaster]

This is a big debate. Probably 90% of people say to use it lightly on plug threads.

[Delorean Industries]

Making 90% of people wrong!

[PJ Grady Inc.]

I'm not touching this one with a ten foot pole...to each his own.
Rob


Making 90% of people wrong!

[Delorean Industries]

Join the top ten percent Rob. Follow me... it is the only way.

[PJ Grady Inc.]

Is your name Josh or Jesus? ;)



Join the top ten percent Rob. Follow me... it is the only way.

[Delorean Industries]

Is your name Josh or Jesus? ;)

Due to forum regulations I can not confirm nor deny this statement.

[PJ Grady Inc.]

Well I'll just have to starting praying to "God" for guidance when it comes to matters of the Delorean!!!!!
Rob


Due to forum regulations I can not confirm nor deny this statement.

[Delorean Industries]

Easier to call. 330 573 4129. I'll give you guidance.

[PJ Grady Inc.]

God takes calls now? Does he text, PM, and email too?


Easier to call. 330 573 4129. I'll give you guidance.

[David T]

God takes calls now? Does he text, PM, and email too?

After looking at many sources on the Internet there seems to be some controversy on this. Bottom line, on many brand new spark plugs, there is a smear of anti-seize compound ALREADY! If there is some obviously you do not need to add more unless you removed it. No one is saying if there is already anti-seize compound you MUST remove it before installing. It should also go without saying (but I will say it anyway) too much of a good thing is no good and it it gets dirty you should remove it and the dirt and reapply a smear before installing. So, if you drop the plug into the dirt you must wipe off the dirt. The empty hole should also be wiped clean before putting the plug in. Josh, just where do you get the information that says you should NOT use anti-seize compound? I see no down-side here besides the fact that it can be very messy. I have seen the results of NOT using it and having to buy Heli-Coils to repair the damage. I really don't think we need to invoke Divine Guidance here.

[dmruschell]

Easier to call. 330 573 4129. I'll give you guidance.

Josh will save us from the sins of our previous owners :P

He also baptizes cars with stainless steel replacement parts.

[jmettee]

This thread is specifically about Bosch plugs having a trivalent coating & would apply to that brand, but I found the same thing in the attached "Did You Know" sheet from NGK. Interesting....I've always used antiseize on spark plugs because that's what my father always did for years as a mechanic. It was probably something that changed over time & modern quality plugs now have premium coatings that reduce or eliminate the need for antiseize.

33532

[PJ Grady Inc.]

I've seen overtightened plugs and crossthreaded plugs but never a seized plug. The plating on Bosch plugs probably is sufficient on it's own.
Rob


This thread is specifically about Bosch plugs having a trivalent coating & would apply to that brand, but I found the same thing in the attached "Did You Know" sheet from NGK. Interesting....I've always used antiseize on spark plugs because that's what my father always did for years as a mechanic. It was probably something that changed over time & modern quality plugs now have premium coatings that reduce or eliminate the need for antiseize.

33532

[Bitsyncmaster]

I did have a seized plug in my daughters old car. Had to break the plug and then drill it out and helicoil it. It was an old car so I just did that without removing the head. Used a stick with adhesive on it to get the chips off the piston. Don't know how long those plugs were in there but you never want to have that happen to your engine.

Maybe you don't need it now with new plugs. How about if you put the old plugs back in?

[PJ Grady Inc.]

Thanks for sharing that bulletin Justin. While I was already aware of the problem of a torque wrench reading incorrectly with antiseize the 2nd point was my learning experience of the day. I was unaware that the stain I've often seen at the isolator/plug body interface was called a "Corona stain" nor did I realize the definitive cause of it. Fascinating stuff...we humans have names for almost everything!!!!


This thread is specifically about Bosch plugs having a trivalent coating & would apply to that brand, but I found the same thing in the attached "Did You Know" sheet from NGK. Interesting....I've always used antiseize on spark plugs because that's what my father always did for years as a mechanic. It was probably something that changed over time & modern quality plugs now have premium coatings that reduce or eliminate the need for antiseize.

33532

[Delorean Industries]

Correct Justin. I was answering directly to the application requested at the start of the thread. Not plugs in general. NJK along with a number of other manufactures also use this type of plating. Other manufactures take different approaches as well. Another good point is the inaccuracy of torque specifications when any time of lubricant is used on a thread. The only time you should ever use any type of lubricant on a thread is when the final application tightening is "held". IE a exhaust manifold stud that is first threaded in with the nut being the component torqued or uprated head bolt where the torque procedure does not included the lubricated thread turning.

[PJ Grady Inc.]

The DMC worshop manual says "lubricate the cyl. head bolts before installing". The Volvo books say to "oil cyl. head bolts before installing". Does "God" really install his head bolts dry?
Rob


QUOTE=DPI JOSH;169487]Correct Justin. I was answering directly to the application requested at the start of the thread. Not plugs in general. NJK along with a number of other manufactures also use this type of plating. Other manufactures take different approaches as well. Another good point is the inaccuracy of torque specifications when any time of lubricant is used on a thread. The only time you should ever use any type of lubricant on a thread is when the final application tightening is "held". IE a exhaust manifold stud that is first threaded in with the nut being the component torqued or uprated head bolt where the torque procedure does not included the lubricated thread turning.[/QUOTE]

[DMC-81]

WOW!! Thanks for the lively debate and information all!!

[Delorean Industries]

Unfortunately you are citing part of a procedure out of context as an example. The original method of installing head bolts required a base torque followed by a angular procedure. This is not a straight torque specification and relies on the angular procedure to apply the clamping force. This is not a measured stress like in a normal procedure but a inconstant load measured by what tightening the bolt that much further should create. It relies on all parts being equal the assumption that all 16 bolts are created equal. This is not the case. My updated procedure utilizing a three step torque to ft lb rating is completely different and only references the manual from a tightening sequence stand point. Meaning each individual bolt is stressed appropriately within its own specification on each respective fastener. It is no secret that the cleaner any thread is the better the reading will be when a measured clamping force is required. This isn't the case with the factory configuration as they might as well have used blind luck.

[PJ Grady Inc.]

Josh I asked you a simple yes/no question and you replied with a politician's paragraph managing to avoid the answer with so many words.
How did I take
"The only time you should ever use any type of lubricant on a thread is when the final application tightening is "held". IE a exhaust manifold stud that is first threaded in with the nut being the component torqued or uprated head bolt where the torque procedure does not included the lubricated thread turning."
out of context? Are you are telling us that the people who designed and built these engines know less than you about them? I agree that you can dispense with the angle gauge procedure and substitute a graduated torqueing method. Don Stegar and I switched to that formula years ago. What new updated procedure are you talking about? I have quetions but so far no straight answers. Don't let the "God" joke go to your head.
Rob


QUOTE=DPI JOSH;169491]Unfortunately you are citing part of a procedure out of context as an example. The original method of installing head bolts required a base torque followed by a angular procedure. This is not a straight torque specification and relies on the angular procedure to apply the clamping force. This is not a measured stress like in a normal procedure but a inconstant load measured by what tightening the bolt that much further should create. It relies on all parts being equal the assumption that all 16 bolts are created equal. This is not the case. My updated procedure utilizing a three step torque to ft lb rating is completely different and only references the manual from a tightening sequence stand point. Meaning each individual bolt is stressed appropriately within its own specification on each respective fastener. It is no secret that the cleaner any thread is the better the reading will be when a measured clamping force is required. This isn't the case with the factory configuration as they might as well have used blind luck.[/QUOTE]

[Delorean Industries]

I answered directly relating installing head bolts/studs and then cited when you should use a lubricant...... I'm not going to openly post my full proof method of installing and torquing cylinder heads.

I"m telling you that a better way has come about since they originally screwed these together and that citing part of the previous procedure isn't a valid point

. Coupled with decking procedures that were previously prohibited, different head gaskets and mounting hardware things are different now. I'm not even sure if I saw a question in your post.

[PJ Grady Inc.]

Here's a hint....when a sentence ends with a ? mark that person is asking you a question. And wouldn't it be "Foolproof" not "full proof"?
That is another question.
Rob



I answered directly relating installing head bolts/studs and then cited when you should use a lubricant...... I'm not going to openly post my full proof method of installing and torquing cylinder heads.

I"m telling you that a better way has come about since they originally screwed these together. Coupled with decking procedures that were previously prohibited, different head gaskets and mounting hardware things are different now. I'm not even sure if I saw a question in your post.

[Delorean Industries]

This is a pointless discussion. I'm going to go and be productive now. Bickering pointlessly on a forum is a waste of valuable time. I suggestion you focus and do the same.

O and things ending in ?..... I answer to one person. Myself.

[PJ Grady Inc.]

Ok God get back to work.That's a very good idea since you can't answer simple questions with a yes or a no.



This is a pointless discussion. I'm going to go and be productive now. Bickering pointlessly on a forum is a waste of valuable time. I suggestion you focus and do the same.

O and things ending in ?..... I answer to one person. Myself.

[Delorean Industries]

"No" I do not lube up before sticking it in the hole. Straight forward enough of an answer for you?

[DMCMW Dave]

Not trying to get in between you two lovebirds but I thought this might go well with the original thread.

Pulled (with great effort) these two plugs out of a running (hard to believe) car yesterday. (Yes, it had two wrong Bosch Platinum and 4 Autolite). The plug wells were filled with remnants of rusty water.

The Bosch plugs came right out and are notably less rusty than the Autolites. The Autolites were scary to get out.

33535

Obviously none of these, or anything like them, is going back in.

[PJ Grady Inc.]

No need to get angry Josh. The internet requires a certain degree of humility and a good sense of humour or it's best to avoid it.
Let's both just get back to work buddy!!!
Rob


"No" I do not lube up before sticking it in the hole. Straight forward enough of an answer for you?

[Delorean Industries]

I"m never angry and should take my own advice on not getting baited into pointless discussions. Because a couple of things to consider objectively:

1.By years end I will have manufactured every required component on this car within reason making me truly self sufficient.

2.The generational gap will be kicking in sooner than later. (a heavy sigh from every vendor but me)

3. No one else is remotely interested in stepping up to the plate once the inevitable happens. I think it is safe to say I will be the last one willing to make the commitment to getting into this line of work without being handed down the silver spoon.

I literally have nothing to be angry about! I can't loose! Keep that in mind and always let the satire bleed through fully in my posts. :)

[Delorean Industries]

Not trying to get in between you two lovebirds but I thought this might go well with the original thread.

Pulled (with great effort) these two plugs out of a running (hard to believe) car yesterday. (Yes, it had two wrong Bosch Platinum and 4 Autolite). The plug wells were filled with remnants of rusty water.

The Bosch plugs came right out and are notably less rusty than the Autolites. The Autolites were scary to get out.

33535

Obviously none of these, or anything like them, is going back in.

Did she even run?

[David T]

Torquing bolts becomes a very complicated subject. It is an indirect method of measuring the clamping force when you put things together. It usually starts from calculations but ends up being tested and done experimentally. Preparation, as usual is very important. Wet, dry, clean threads, plating, the type of materials, all can affect the result. Getting back to the original topic, spark plugs, for many years mechanics have been using anti-seize compounds on spark plugs. It first came into general practice when aluminum heads became popular and it was noticed that the threads would often come out along with the spark plugs. The problem got worse when the gasketless spark plugs were introduced. They are the ones like we use in the Delorean with the flare type seal and no gasket. They would seize into the aluminum heads and could not be removed unless anti-seize compound was used. It became so commonplace to use an anti-seize compound that spark plugs would come new in the box with a little bit on just so it would not be forgotten to use it. It DOES affect the torque but that is figured into the spec. As for the head bolts, that is a whole different discussion. That can be VERY specific to the motor's manufacturer, the gasket manufacturer, the builder, the bolt supplier, and so on. Ultimately it will come down to experience and history. This is a case of where the old saying "Nothing speaks like success" is very important. No one is building more motors than Josh and it it is working for him it is probably the way to go. That being said, to use his technique you must follow them EXACTLY as he does using the same products, preparation and procedures. Also be aware that in order to use torque values it is important to not only use a torque wrench, you must use an ACCURATELY CALIBRATED ONE!. The one you bought at a flea market that was run over by your friend's truck is not going to be very accurate!

[DMC-81]

Not to add fuel to the fire, but I just wanted to report my experience with the spark plugs. I removed Champion plugs. After I exceeded the breakaway torque, all 6 came out easily. I don't know how long they were in there, but the car was last registered in 2001. They had anti seize on them.

Then I cleaned the ports thoroughly (Disclaimer: I am doing a concours level resto on it so I am cleaning the engine anyway with toothbrushes and q tips, so it is not just a plug swap). After cleaning, I attempted to install the new correct Bosch plugs dry, and after 2 turns, each one felt like it was cross threaded and I would have to bear down on them from there. I just didn't feel right, so I applied a little bit of anti seize on the bottom third of the threads, taking care not to get it on the business end of the plug or where it seats in the hole. They went in smoothly and I torqued them to a lesser value to compensate for the lubrication... 11 ft/lbs (14 x (1.0 -20%).

I think the next owner of the car will thank me, just like I am now thanking the first owner. :wrenchin:l

Again, thank you all for sharing a little bit of your collective brain trust. :thankyou:

[PJ Grady Inc.]

I guess you didn't make the "10 percent" cut. That's OK I think your engine will survive ;-)! Since no one is angry there is no fire!


Not to add fuel to the fire, but I just wanted to report my experience with the spark plugs. I removed Champion plugs. After I exceeded the breakaway torque, all 6 came out easily. I don't know how long they were in there, but the car was last registered in 2001. They had anti seize on them.

Then I cleaned the ports thoroughly (Disclaimer: I am doing a concours level resto on it so I am cleaning the engine anyway with toothbrushes and q tips, so it is not just a plug swap). After cleaning, I attempted to install the new correct Bosch plugs dry, and after 2 turns, each one felt like it was cross threaded and I would have to bear down on them from there. I just didn't feel right, so I applied a little bit of anti seize on the bottom third of the threads, taking care not to get it on the business end of the plug or where it seats in the hole. They went in smoothly and I torqued them to a lesser value to compensate for the lubrication... 11 ft/lbs (14 x (1.0 -20%).

I think the next owner of the car will thank me, just like I am now thanking the first owner. :wrenchin:l

Again, thank you all for sharing a little bit of your collective brain trust. :thankyou:

[David T]

As long as we are talking about spark plugs, don't use the expensive ones. Rob can vouch for this, they seem to leak after a while. What good is a 100,000 mile spark plug if they won't last a couple of years? When gapping them try to get them all the same. If you drop it, check the gap again before installing. Only get the Never Seize on the threads and the flare, NOT the electrode. A LITTLE BIT goes a LONG way. Make sure you have the ignition wire snapped on (you should be able to feel it) and the boot fit into the cup at the top of the well to keep water out. It is also a good time to do a compression test for historical purposes.