high idle after major service kit work

[novadmc]

car's finally all back together after replacing the water pump and working through the major service kit...

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but while my water pump now is not leaking, I've got probably bigger issues now.

car fired up after a few seconds of cranking but:

it sounds like crap, i still have some rattling/pinging in/around Cyl4 (even after a valve adjustment) its not in perfect rythm to the motor so i'm not sure what is the culprit
i've got a high idle. close to 2000rpms. after letting it run for a minute, i rev'd the engine to 2500 rpms and then it stayed there.
had some whiteish smoke around cyl 6 coming from the valve cover, but that could be the permatex burning in.



I double checked all my vacuum hoses to make sure they are tight/not leaking.

service performed (besides water pump replacement):

new spark plugs
new spark plug wires
new injector seals
new distributor rotor
new distributor cap
valve adjustnemt



lastly, when i turn the car off, it stumbles and shakes as it dies out. not overly violent, but definitely more so than prior to my working on it. additionally turning it on hot takes a lot longer than it did before (prior to the work it would fire right up after ~1sec of cranking)

[sdg3205]

You pretty much have to double check everything. Think "backlash." There are small tolerances everywhere that add up when everything is rebuilt. The throttle spool bracket alone can make or break the proper contact with the idle speed switch.

If it's pinging and running rough, double and triple check the spark leads. It's easy to mess them up. High idle indicates improper settings with the throttle linkages and that the idle system is not functioning or engaged at all.

Once you resolve all that stuff you need to adjust your dwell. All that sexy new gear will have an impact in fuel mixture.

Also ensure your timing with a gun.

[kings1527]

Def sounds like your plug wires might not be in the right places. I second the thought on double-checking those.

[Dangermouse]

And recheck the rotor cap. It is possible to put it on back to front. There is a tab but it's not very clear.

[novadmc]

You pretty much have to double check everything. Think "backlash." There are small tolerances everywhere that add up when everything is rebuilt. The throttle spool bracket alone can make or break the proper contact with the idle speed switch.

If it's pinging and running rough, double and triple check the spark leads. It's easy to mess them up. High idle indicates improper settings with the throttle linkages and that the idle system is not functioning or engaged at all.

Once you resolve all that stuff you need to adjust your dwell. All that sexy new gear will have an impact in fuel mixture.

Also ensure your timing with a gun.

with the throttle linkage, when the linkage rod is connected to the throttle cable assembly to the throttle body, it should cause the throttle body to just engage the micro switch (so the rod is just long enough so the micro switch goes "click") correct?

[novadmc]

And recheck the rotor cap. It is possible to put it on back to front. There is a tab but it's not very clear.

tripple checked rotor, cap and plug locations before buttoning it up (tabs were lined up and cap was replaced with cables 1:1 before fully removing old cap.
ill double check all the wires are securely plugged into the plugs though. the new wires from DMCH, IMO, dont click in as securely as the old Bosch wires i removed

[sdg3205]

And then some, because engine vacuum will change the amount of length needed.

The first time I rebuilt the top end, everything looked spec while off, but as soon as I started the car the idle was high, like yours and I had to readjust everything while running.

[81dmc]

the new wires from DMCH, IMO, dont click in as securely as the old Bosch wires i removed

IMHO, the spark wire kit from DMCH is complete junk. It is the only product I refuse to buy from them. When I removed my old DMCH wires, which were a year old, the connectors were almost burned through and the car ran horribly. After I installed new Bosch wires, the car ran great and there was no longer an interference in the radio

[kings1527]

IMHO, the spark wire kit from DMCH is complete junk. It is the only product I refuse to buy from them. When I removed my old DMCH wires, which were a year old, the connectors were almost burned through and the car ran horribly. After I installed new Bosch wires, the car ran great and there was no longer an interference in the radio

Interesting. I've had great luck with my DMCH wire kit that I bought and installed about 3 years/12k miles ago. Car runs perfectly. Where did you get the Bosch wire set from? Do you have a part number?

[81dmc]

Interesting. I've had great luck with my DMCH wire kit that I bought and installed about 3 years/12k miles ago. Car runs perfectly. Where did you get the Bosch wire set from? Do you have a part number?

Bosch 09095

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Bosch-09095-Lifetime-Wires-/371308179694?hash=item5673b130ee

Here is a picture of the old DMCH wire:
http://i376.photobucket.com/albums/oo203/rodolfovii/Mobile%20Uploads/258CC154-32F2-4EF9-B9C5-984D24B3A632_zpswpqblyte.jpg (http://s376.photobucket.com/user/rodolfovii/media/Mobile%20Uploads/258CC154-32F2-4EF9-B9C5-984D24B3A632_zpswpqblyte.jpg.html)

[novadmc]

Bosch 09095
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Bosch-09095-Lifetime-Wires-/371308179694?hash=item5673b130ee


those are what i pulled off my car. guess ill keep them around (they were in decent shape) just incase i decide the DMCH ones are not up to snuff.

course if i do decide to change them, i guess its gonna be a PITA to swap them out. fuel mix unit doesnt need to fully removed i take it, but at least unbolted from the manifold to make room for unplugging the wires (the plugs for cyl2 and 4 on the distributor cap is especially crammed under there).

[novadmc]

well looks like I fixed the idle.

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as seen in the pic (taken before i pulled stuff apart), the lower screw is in full contact with the bracket that the micro switch is attached to, making the fully depressed. I had inadvertently adjusted the throttle assembly rod so when put back together, that lower screw was about 1/8" away from making contact with the plate. so the micro switch was engaging (clicking) but JUST barely.

after readjusting, I fired the car up. quick puff of white/blue smoke (i hope i didn't screw the valve adjustment up) and it idle walked a bit (as it always has) and then settled in where it used to idle.

so with that, Idle appears fine.

now to check dwell, etc this week before attempting a short drive (hopefully)

[novadmc]

now i've got a question regarding dwell.
I picked up an Actron dwell meter. i hooked up the meter's green alligator clip up to the Lambda ECU pin in the diagnostic plug (pin #3, lower right pin when plug cap is opened to the right). and attached the neg alligator clip to the grounding bolt ont the top of the intake manifold.

after firing up the car, the reading and my dwell meter just read 0.

any ideas?

[ifelder]

now i've got a question regarding dwell.
I picked up an Actron dwell meter. i hooked up the meter's green alligator clip up to the Lambda ECU pin in the diagnostic plug (pin #3, lower right pin when plug cap is opened to the right). and attached the neg alligator clip to the grounding bolt ont the top of the intake manifold.

after firing up the car, the reading and my dwell meter just read 0.

any ideas?

There's a 2 pin connector in the engine harness, mine was behind the idle speed motor but you might have to fish for it. One of the wires in this connector is Orange, you can use this for a dwell signal.

[sdg3205]

I take the dwell reading right off the bulkhead plug to the frequency valve.

[novadmc]

ok, onto dwell:

took reading this morning. during the warm up period (idle hunt) the dwell meter stayed right around 21.5 on the 8cyl scale (so 43 when doubled).

once warmed up tho and idling correctly, dwell dropped to 5 (so 10 doubled) and didn't move (let the car run for a few mins and nothing changed. revving the engine via the throttle spool by hand did not change the reading either.
Click image for larger version.

34765


https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...2010.05.39.mov

so given this what does it mean i should start checking next?

[sdg3205]

Do you see 60 with WOT switch engaged

[Bitsyncmaster]

ok, onto dwell:

took reading this morning. during the warm up period (idle hunt) the dwell meter stayed right around 21.5 on the 8cyl scale (so 43 when doubled).

once warmed up tho and idling correctly, dwell dropped to 5 (so 10 doubled) and didn't move (let the car run for a few mins and nothing changed. revving the engine via the throttle spool by hand did not change the reading either.
Click image for larger version.

34765


https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...2010.05.39.mov

so given this what does it mean i should start checking next?

If it dropped to 10 deg. your mixture is pretty far off. The reason it is not moving is your at the limit of the lambda ECU.

[Elvis]

I remember the dwell jumps back to a starting position when off the limits.

But don't know if it is in both directions.

Lambda-Probe OK ? and connected ?

Mixture off ?

[novadmc]

Do you see 60 with WOT switch engaged

engaging the WOT switch while idling sends dwell to 50 steady.

i'm also getting some grey/white smoke at idle out of the exhaust and some water spitting out of the tail pipes (but this has been that way since i bought the car.. hoping that's just condensation from running the engine in short spurts)


I remember the dwell jumps back to a starting position when off the limits.

But don't know if it is in both directions.

Lambda-Probe OK ? and connected ?

Mixture off ?

o2 sensor is connected. hoping its mixture.

at a reading of 5, what way should i be turning to adjust the mix? i know ~1/4 turn is basically the full spectrum in either direction.

[Bitsyncmaster]

engaging the WOT switch while idling sends dwell to 50 steady.

i'm also getting some grey/white smoke at idle out of the exhaust and some water spitting out of the tail pipes (but this has been that way since i bought the car.. hoping that's just condensation from running the engine in short spurts)



o2 sensor is connected. hoping its mixture.

at a reading of 5, what way should i be turning to adjust the mix? i know ~1/4 turn is basically the full spectrum in either direction.

Our cars always spit a lot of water when the engine is warming up at idle.

Just make a small change in the mixture each way until you start getting a movement of the dwell. Can't remember which direction increased the reading. You would read 60% with WOT on a duty cycle scale. I think the dwell number would be 54 degrees.

[Elvis]

Well, I tried to figure it out several times which readings wants which direction...it's a good way
to get a headach ...
Simply turn it a bit in either direction and see if you can get a different reading.

Don't forget to remember how much you turned in which direction and plug the hole !!!

[novadmc]

I ended up having to turn it over 1/4 turn (close to 1/3 turn) counter clockwise. after doing that, the dwell went from static 5 to oscillating between 40-50 (video posted below).

holding WOT switch brings up to ~52 holding.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lmkmSX2Zj9w&feature=youtu.be

got a decent puff of blue smoke at startup. so either my valve adjustment was really bad or my valve seals are starting to go as well....

[Bitsyncmaster]

Dwell setting is not that critical but your looking to try to stick with the designed optimal.

Book value setting of dwell is 35 to 45 deg. So you want to set that average dwell at 40 deg.

You set the book value so your engine warm up mixture is preset to the CPR. And when you go wide open throttle the mixture is rich for best power.

Setting the dwell higher will still hold the correct mixture "14.7 AFR" while driving but when you go WOT your mixture will only go a little richer than 14.7 AFR. During warm up you will probably run a little lean, so you may need to let your engine warm up before you get good throttle response.

[novadmc]

Dwell setting is not that critical but your looking to try to stick with the designed optimal.

Book value setting of dwell is 35 to 45 deg. So you want to set that average dwell at 40 deg.

You set the book value so your engine warm up mixture is preset to the CPR. And when you go wide open throttle the mixture is rich for best power.

Setting the dwell higher will still hold the correct mixture "14.7 AFR" while driving but when you go WOT your mixture will only go a little richer than 14.7 AFR. During warm up you will probably run a little lean, so you may need to let your engine warm up before you get good throttle response.

so given that, i should back it off slightly and go clockwise a hair or two. hopefully i can get to that on Friday or Saturday.

I also bought a timing light to also verify timing given all this. who knew a "simple" job of replacing the water pump and doing the major service kit (minus the o2 sensor. haven't gotten around to putting the new one on yet) would lead to this fun.

on the bright side, i'm definitely learning a lot about this particular engine (hopefully not to its detriment :) ).

[Bitsyncmaster]

so given that, i should back it off slightly and go clockwise a hair or two. hopefully i can get to that on Friday or Saturday.

I also bought a timing light to also verify timing given all this. who knew a "simple" job of replacing the water pump and doing the major service kit (minus the o2 sensor. haven't gotten around to putting the new one on yet) would lead to this fun.

on the bright side, i'm definitely learning a lot about this particular engine (hopefully not to its detriment :) ).

I would back it off a little. Yes you will learn the quirks of this engine just working on your own car. When I first got my car, I knew nothing about K-jet.

[Elvis]

This is what I absolutely support and want people to do - spend time withe their car and hobby.

Sad but true - many or most people don't wanna waste their time with it and just want a quick
answer so that others shall spent their time for them.

Instead - helping somebody who is really interested - is fun :-)

[rdarlington]

Don't listen to them. Get away from the car while you can! ;-)

[novadmc]

checked timing today. dead on 13* BTDC so that's perfect. (taken from cyl 6 plug wire, as the manual says either 1 or 6 can be used... and i didn't feel like taking off the air box to get to cly1's wire :) )

messed with the fuel mix a bit. its still not 100% (it still likes to occasionally dip down to 30 on the dwell meter but never goes above 50. few times it dives down to closer to 20-10 but then i hear the FV buzz more and it shoots back up. once the engine is really warm that sort of smooths out and it stays between 30-50, occasionally hovering right at 40. so im calling it a win at this point.

one interesting (and in my opinion a good thing) to note. is after messing with the mixture the car turns on (both cold and hot starts) MUCH quicker and surer than it ever has. cold starts were never really a problem but would still take a second or 2 to fire to life. hot starts would take 4-5 seconds. today cold start was literally immediate. hot start was like ~1sec. that alone was impressive to me.

lastly, there's still a bit of light/faint smoke (barely noticeable unless i was really looking for it) once the car's warmed up coming from the engine bay. my guess (and hope) though is that's all the TheRightStuff gasket maker burning and sealing in around the water pump, valve covers and other areas i applied it.

given all that, i think the car's ready for a new and short maiden voyage/shakedown drive tomorrow to the car show.