Frame & Body Well... I'm done for. [Archive] - DMCTalk Forum

mluder

09-10-2015, 01:35 AM

Ron

09-10-2015, 02:05 AM

http://deloreannewparts.com/store/page11.html

Nicholas R

09-10-2015, 04:36 AM

http://deloreannewparts.com/store/page11.html

Is this an endorsement or just ensuring awareness?

I too am curious to hear from someone that has actually used one of these.

DavidProehl

09-10-2015, 09:00 AM

I don't have experience with the DMOCO bar, but want to commiserate. Both my driver and passenger side bars have broken on me, most recently a couple weeks ago when my passenger bar went. Very painful to see happen, even more painful to pay to replace.

I replaced my passengers side with a NOS bar, and drivers side with a heavily worn and rusted parts car bar. I'm a little nervous the parts car bar will go at some point given the amount of rust on it, but so far so good. If I were to replace it at this point I'd go with the DMOCO bar. It has been out for about 6 years now I think that if there was a failure someone would be yelling about it by now.

SS Spoiler

09-10-2015, 09:02 AM

Wait a minute, aren't original bars stainless? How can it rust?

Dangermouse

09-10-2015, 09:12 AM

DavidProehl

09-10-2015, 09:22 AM

More than a little in the case of the bar I got from a parts car:

http://dmctalk.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=36762&stc=1

David T

09-10-2015, 09:23 AM

I think they can get a little surface rust.

Steve/Nick, I understand that forum member Andrew (http://dmctalk.org/member.php?30525-Andrew) installed one of Bryne bars in July. Perhaps he will read this and respond, or you can reach out to him. According to his thread on Today, he also had some roof separation issue which probably led to the break
(http://dmctalk.org/member.php?30525-Andrew)

To prevent losing a bar, cut a 2" by 3" piece of rubber from a tire tube and slip it in between the rear hinge and the bar so the bar can't be scratched. As for the light surface rust, you can clean that up with a piece of Scotch-Brite.

DavidProehl

09-10-2015, 09:26 AM

To prevent losing a bar, cut a 2" by 3" piece of rubber from a tire tube and slip it in between the rear hinge and the bar so the bar can't be scratched. As for the light surface rust, you can clean that up with a piece of Scotch-Brite.

I had rubber on both of my bars, and while they didn't break from the hinge scratching, they both broke. I may try your scotchbrite idea. At this point I'm scared to touch them though because of how easily they seem to break for me.

delornut

09-10-2015, 10:57 AM

I had rubber on both of my bars, and while they didn't break from the hinge scratching, they both broke. I may try your scotchbrite idea. At this point I'm scared to touch them though because of how easily they seem to break for me.

I remember your passenger bar had been cranked waaaay up by the previous owner. That evening you were at my house it seemed like it could lift the passenger out of the seat when they opened the door. The bracket was wedged on the bar and we couldn't get the glued down T panel loose to get access to pry it off. We elected not to continue trying anything that night but I'd guess it was that over adjusting that contributed to it breaking.

Bruce Benson

DavidProehl

09-10-2015, 10:59 AM

I remember your passenger bar had been cranked waaaay up by the previous owner. That evening you were at my house it seemed like it could lift the passenger out of the seat when they opened the door. We couldn't get the glued down T panel loose so we elected not to continue trying anything that night but I'd guess it was that over adjusting contributed to it breaking.

Bruce Benson

Yes, I'm sure that was a factor for both bars. Swingle did adjust my bar back down when I brought the car into him a year later, but the damage to the bar was probably done by then. Even though my old bars were abused, I'm still a little nervous about torsion bars now.

Swingle also couldn't remove my T panel. He said he would have to damage it to get it off.

DMCMW Dave

09-10-2015, 12:04 PM

Swingle also couldn't remove my T panel. He said he would have to damage it to get it off.

We've seen a few where someone glued the panel on with windshield urethane. (Including my personal car :dead:). Getting it apart typically destroys the foam pad. Cheap part, a bit of a pain to replace. If careful you get the roof panel off and tear up the pad but save the stainless.

PJ Grady Inc.

09-10-2015, 02:47 PM

More than a little in the case of the bar I got from a parts car:

http://dmctalk.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=36762&stc=1

You should be able to safely remove the rust with WD40 and red scotchbrite pads. Not doing anything is risky as once the bar pits it will likely fail one day.
Rob

DavidProehl

09-10-2015, 03:07 PM

You should be able to safely remove the rust with WD40 and red scotchbrite pads. Not doing anything is risky as once the bar pits it will likely fail one day.
Rob

Thanks for the tip! I'll do exactly that.

SS Spoiler

09-10-2015, 05:31 PM

Polish it to a chrome finish....

Galt

09-11-2015, 10:20 AM

The fear of all fears has happened. Washed my car tonight - got it all spiffed up. Then after the kid went to bed I headed to the gym.

Parked in the parking garage and as I was walking away from the car heard "THAT" sound - it was loud.

Immediately went back and sure enough - Broken driver's side torsion bar.

Any one have any experience with the one DMOCO offers? Any other tested options?

I'm going for a drink.
Cheers
Steve

You may or may not believe this but I had one break on me about 15 years ago on a previous car. Had a friend weld it back together - he wasn't even particularly good at welding. That car was my daily driver for 2 years post torsion bar weld and it never failed. Just sayin'.

Rich

09-11-2015, 12:21 PM

You may or may not believe this but I had one break on me about 15 years ago on a previous car. Had a friend weld it back together - he wasn't even particularly good at welding. That car was my daily driver for 2 years post torsion bar weld and it never failed. Just sayin'.

Interesting bit of data there, thanks.

Has anybody else had any long-term success with welded-back-together torsion bars?

DMCMW Dave

09-11-2015, 01:04 PM

PJ Grady Inc.

09-11-2015, 02:20 PM

We've seen a few where someone glued the panel on with windshield urethane. (Including my personal car :dead:). Getting it apart typically destroys the foam pad. Cheap part, a bit of a pain to replace. If careful you get the roof panel off and tear up the pad but save the stainless.

Just did one of these today Dave and it was the worst ever...a major urethane mess! Some how I got the stainless off undamaged without being able to chisel the foam pad off. How did I even do that?
Rob

Dangermouse

09-11-2015, 02:34 PM

Interesting bit of data there, thanks.

Has anybody else had any long-term success with welded-back-together torsion bars?

We've never done it, but I have one customer who had a friend weld up his bar, we installed it, and it's going on 6 years now. We purposely set the door very weak (holds open about 1/2 way). We found that if we went tighter, it would almost immediately settle a bit, so we stopped there.

When I got my car, it came with a broken, previously welded bar. The PO had sleeved over the break and welded both sides, but then it was effectively only a torsion bar for 70% of it's length, perhaps. I would think you would have to dial down the setting on the installation so it is in it's unstressed position at about half way, as Dave did. Then you are stressing the bar in the opposite direction as you push it open further (it would become a +/-45 degree twist, rather than a +90 degree twist)

Better than no bar, though.

Ron

09-11-2015, 02:53 PM

Is this an endorsement or just ensuring awareness?

I too am curious to hear from someone that has actually used one of these.
Both.
fwiw- He has sold 100s with only one ever giving a problem (from the initial batch), which he promptly took care of.

David T

09-11-2015, 02:53 PM

When I got my car, it came with a broken, previously welded bar. The PO had sleeved over the break and welded both sides, but then it was effectively only a torsion bar for 70% of it's length, perhaps. I would think you would have to dial down the setting on the installation so it is in it's unstressed position at about half way, as Dave did. Then you are stressing the bar in the opposite direction as you push it open further (it would become a +/-45 degree twist, rather than a +90 degree twist)

Better than no bar, though.

Don Steger in CA said he welded bars and had some success. I had a broken bar that I sent to him to weld. It quickly broke again. He said send it back and he would try again. It broke again. I gave up and replaced it. I thought about sleeving but as said, it does reduce the amount of bar that can twist, increasing the stress greatly on the remaining portion. IMHO not a good way to fix.

mluder

09-11-2015, 03:15 PM

Both.
fwiw- He has sold 100s with only one ever giving a problem (from the initial batch), which he promptly took care of.

Yeah... But look at it... :facepalm:

Cheers
Steven

PJ Grady Inc.

09-11-2015, 05:23 PM

Yeah... But look at it.
Cheers
Steven

He's sold hundreds and I've never seen one pass through the shop....must all be on the left coast! I like Bern but that thing is the fuggliest thing I could imagine seeing on a car. It may work for a screen door but I wouldn't close that thing over my or anybody else's head! Looks like a lawsuit waiting to happen to me.
Rob

Mario

09-11-2015, 05:55 PM

It's not terribly beautiful, but it definitely looks functional and less prone to breakage than a stock torsion bar. If it does break, though, it could be a little more catastrophic. I'd be comfortable using it if I had to, but it is a bit ugly. Non-DeLorean owners wouldn't even notice, undoubtedly.

Mike F

09-12-2015, 11:01 PM

Sorry to hear about your torsion bar, Steve. I feel your pain; just had to replace mine about a month ago. I went with the DMOCO bar on mine, and so far it is working well. Save for the finish being slightly different, you'd never tell it isn't the original. Unfortunately I can't give you a long-term report on it, but based on what I've experienced so far I'd recommend it.

DMCMW Dave

09-12-2015, 11:08 PM

He's sold hundreds and I've never seen one pass through the shop
Rob

Yeah - I wonder about that "hundreds" thing too. I've never seen one (Byrne's) in person and/or on a car either. I've seen and installed a couple of DMOCO bars, never had a problem with them. Houston's had one on a car as a "tester" since they first came out. No issues there either.

mluder

09-13-2015, 04:19 AM

I've managed to source a used, good condition bar. It should arrive next week courtesy of DPI.
Just couldn't bring myself to using either of the aftermarket ones... The Henninger is too far from stock appearance for my taste and the DMOCO one... Well, for that price I could get one that has the original engineering and testing to back it up.

Here's to hoping it has good life left in it.

Cheers
Steven

Bitsyncmaster

09-13-2015, 04:47 AM

I don't know if it helps, but I leave my doors open when it's parked in my garage. It also keeps me use to ducking when I walk past the car. Bad thing is if I making dust (table saw), I will need to vacuum the inside unless I remember to close the doors.

Ron

09-13-2015, 07:55 AM

Yeah... But look at it... :facepalm:
Well, sorry you asked!:deviltail:

Nicholas R

09-13-2015, 10:04 AM

Both.
fwiw- He has sold 100s with only one ever giving a problem (from the initial batch), which he promptly took care of.

Cool, I didn't realize that you had one installed in your car. Can you post some photos of it installed? I've always been curious how it looks and fits in that area. I know the normal torsion bar clearance is tight (hence all the talk of putting a hose over the bar), so I'm curious how this fits since the spring looks larger than the original bar.

DavidProehl

11-08-2015, 07:12 PM

You should be able to safely remove the rust with WD40 and red scotchbrite pads. Not doing anything is risky as once the bar pits it will likely fail one day.
Rob

Thanks again for this tip! Worked like a charm!

Before:

37859

After:
37860

Rich_NYS

11-08-2015, 07:59 PM

Thanks again for this tip! Worked like a charm!

Before:

37859

After:
37860

That looks nice! I'm going to do that too...

Ron

11-08-2015, 09:13 PM

Rich_NYS

11-08-2015, 09:25 PM

Nick, the latest posts reminded me, sorry man! I don't have one in my D and I asked Byrne for pics installed but he sent uninstalled. I called and straightened it out and he said he would send some but I didn't get any. Called again and he said he sent some but would resend. Nothing ever came and I forgot... :blackeye:

Andrew has one on the drivers' side of one of his cars, I saw it in September. I remember thinking it looked a lot better than I expected it would, and it worked very well. I'll see if I have a pic of it, and if not, I'll ask Andrew to post one.

Andrew

11-09-2015, 05:08 PM

Andrew has one on the drivers' side of one of his cars, I saw it in September. I remember thinking it looked a lot better than I expected it would, and it worked very well. I'll see if I have a pic of it, and if not, I'll ask Andrew to post one.

Here are a couple pictures of Byrne's torsion unit installed on 4194. Installation was straight forward and included useful instructions. Setting the tension was easier than the stock assembly. In fact I was able to install and pre-tension the assembly by myself and got it perfectly set on the first try! :-)

Yes Byrne's unit does not look like a factory torsion bar, but IMO the performance is an improvement over stock. Plus 37868Byrne's torsion units appear more durable than stock design.

Nicholas R

11-09-2015, 11:20 PM

Plus 37868Byrne's torsion units appear more durable than stock design.

In what way? I'm just curious, because that's kind of a strong statement.

I mean, when we talk about the stock design, we're talking about a part on 9000 cars, that in nearly every case has lasted close to 35 years, and thousands of cycles. Failures of stock units are pretty rare, even after all that time and all that load. This is a part that can sit outside in a field in a dormant car for 25 years (under full load with the door closed), and with the assistance of a new set of struts, open the doors flawlessly like it was new, for years to come. I would say if anything, the torsion bars are one of the most impressive, and best engineered individual parts on the DeLorean. It would take a lot to prove to me that another part is better. Also, for fun sometime, go to a Bricklin forum and read up on their door opening system's longevity, just to compare... :wink:

Andrew

11-10-2015, 12:25 AM

The stock units certainly serve their purpose and generally function very well. However they do have their weak points as well. Specifically they do not like to be scratched. Furthermore I suspect that failures will become more common as the 34 year old glue holding the roof boxes to the tubs begin to fail.

Byrne's torsion units appear to use a concept similar to a garage door spring. In contrast, the stock DeLorean unit involves turning a solid piece of metal 90 degrees.

But I certainly agree that either design is far superior to a Bricklin door system!

Sent from my XT897 using Tapatalk

Bitsyncmaster

11-10-2015, 05:18 AM

Just my basic physics mind would think the "coiled spring" would effectively let the bar act like it was longer and need less twist "per inch". That would make me think it's a longer lasting solution if the metals were the same.

Nicholas R

11-10-2015, 08:05 AM

Springs come in all shapes and sizes. One of the engineers I work with in Florida always says: "All the world's a spring." Its true really; every material has a spring coefficient. Then, as long as you stay within the elastic deformation zone, the object will not be damaged when loaded, (though it may fatigue over time). However, if the load stays within the material's endurance limit, theoretically the item will last an infinite number of cycles.

I dont know that I've ever heard of a stock bar actually failing because of someone scratching it. I've mostly heard of corrosion causing pitting being the cause. Though this would affect any metal spring. What is the material of Byrne's unit? Carbon or Stainless steel?

Regardless, I guess we wont know how they compare for another 35 years :wink:

Mario

11-10-2015, 04:39 PM

Springs come in all shapes and sizes. One of the engineers I work with in Florida always says: "All the world's a spring." Its true really; every material has a spring coefficient. Then, as long as you stay within the elastic deformation zone, the object will not be damaged when loaded, (though it may fatigue over time). However, if the load stays within the material's endurance limit, theoretically the item will last an infinite number of cycles.

While true, I think we can agree that the stock torsion bar is under a lot more stress with the door closed than these ones. The stock bar is being twisted 90 degrees, while this one just winds the spring a bit tighter. With what looks like 8 coils, there's just over 11 degrees of twist being applied to each, which just causes them to compress into a slightly tighter circle. I think the stock design is definitely a tradeoff for better aesthetics.

Dangermouse

11-10-2015, 05:31 PM

Plus there is a much cooler story to tell about it.

Soundkillr

11-10-2015, 06:00 PM

Plus there is a much cooler story to tell about it.

I see what you did there.

Nicholas R

11-10-2015, 11:48 PM

While true, I think we can agree that the stock torsion bar is under a lot more stress with the door closed than these ones. The stock bar is being twisted 90 degrees, while this one just winds the spring a bit tighter. With what looks like 8 coils, there's just over 11 degrees of twist being applied to each, which just causes them to compress into a slightly tighter circle. I think the stock design is definitely a tradeoff for better aesthetics.

We'll have to agree to disagree here. I don't think that assumption can be made simply by looking at the two side by side. Without actually knowing the spring coefficient and the modulus of elasticity of each, as well as the torsion applied, this is just conjecture. There's no way to know the stress on either without running the numbers.

Torsion bars are not uncommon. They are used very widely in vehicle suspensions. Heck my ranger has torsion bars instead of coil springs in the front. 90 degrees of twist on a well designed torsion bar is not that much. I really do not think there is any tradeoff here. I think that when they were designing this system, their concern was not aesthetics but rather reliability and longevity, which to me has shown to have paid off.

Plus there is a much cooler story to tell about it.

Nice one :thumbup:

Dangermouse

11-11-2015, 08:31 AM

I would be interested in knowing if there are other applications for torsion bars with the amount of twist that our door ones have. (Google brings up the Kershaw Cryo knife that has a lot of issues with their cryo torsion bar spring breaking, but it is a tiny spring)

While a suspension torsion bar is in a much rougher environment (in terms of mechanical abuse) they only twist + or - 15 degrees, maybe, about a midpoint.

I love the fact that GKN engineered such a complex solution that resulted in a very simple looking bar; a futuristic solution for a futuristic looking car.

DMCVegas

11-11-2015, 10:16 AM

I would be interested in knowing if there are other applications for torsion bars with the amount of twist that our door ones have.

I believe that the original alternate application for a torsion bar with the same principals as our car was for lifting canopies off of jets for the easier ingress and egress.

An unusual application I also found here:

http://www.google.com/patents/US7131611

It looks as though someone had the idea of installing torsion bars inside of aircraft winds to help deform them instead of using rudders or flaps on fixed wings to pilot the craft.