Couldn't open one of my doors...

[Petey]

Hi all,

I ran into a scary problem with my Delorean the other day where I couldn't get the drivers side (right) door open. Eventually I got it by repeatedly locking and unlocking from the outside.
I have searched around and found a bunch of different solutions online, is it really a common problem? It's a little disturbing to think as you close those doors you might not be getting out anytime soon!
I had the battery disconnected so I thought maybe it could be the solenoid, but surely it would still work manually??
I had heard some people just remove that but I'm not sure what angle to take on fixing it. To be honest it has left me a bit disheartened about fixing it. 😕

Thanks,
Pete

[Texas Twister]

Hi all,

I ran into a scary problem with my Delorean the other day where I couldn't get the drivers side (right) door open. Eventually I got it by repeatedly locking and unlocking from the outside.
I have searched around and found a bunch of different solutions online, is it really a common problem? It's a little disturbing to think as you close those doors you might not be getting out anytime soon!
I had the battery disconnected so I thought maybe it could be the solenoid, but surely it would still work manually??
I had heard some people just remove that but I'm not sure what angle to take on fixing it. To be honest it has left me a bit disheartened about fixing it. 

Thanks,
Pete
If the battery was disconnected, it had nothing to do with the solenoid. It should still unlock manually. If it did not then you may have to adjust your linkages. If it opens from the inside, it may just be the adjustment of the cable from the outside door handle. If it is from both inside and out you have a problem then you have some other linkages in the door to adjust. If you left the door open, good. Use a screwdriver to close the latches while the door is open and hold the door close to the closed position then test the inside and outside latches. Don't close the door until the latches are back in the open position. There are some turnbuckle style adjusters in the door for the front and rear latches. I'm sure there is a thread around here somewhere on door adjustment.

[Rich]

....There are some turnbuckle style adjusters in the door for the front and rear latches. I'm sure there is a thread around here somewhere on door adjustment.

Don't go looking for threads on this one. They are confusing in this case.

It's a well-documented adjustment/service topic from the factory, same as any other car of that vintage except with 2 latches instead of just 1.

Simpler just to follow the Workshop Manual, Section P:02:10-12

or the Tech Bulletin on this topic (includes drawings):
Look for ST-10-8/81 - Door Latch and Lock Setting Procedures
http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?6508

Remember to wrap the inner door openings with duct tape and be sure you know the difference between the locking function and the latching function.
If the door acts like it's locked closed (pulling on the door handle feels the same locked vs unlocked) then start with the lock/solenoid linkage first.

[Jonathan]

Stephen did a nice job with a video he posted in August explaining things inside the door and it could help you get familiar with the door latches and rods. It's a good visual that the write-ups don't always explain quite as well.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RgOATYrwx4Q

[Petey]

Awesome! Thanks, that's super helpful!

So I guess the solenoid is merely there to mirror the locked state of one door to the other and wouldn't inhibit the lock's movement (unless it was damaged). I could see how removing it wouldn't really introduce any problems, except that you'd have to manually lock/unlock each door.
If mine are okay, does that leave me with an issue of the release links perhaps being preloaded or something?

I also noticed that generally the doors take a bit of force to close, pretty much no one that's ever jumped in it has got it on the first go, is that normal, or maybe something else that's influencing this locking issue?

Thanks again,
Pete

[Jonathan]

About removing things from the door... aside from any physical or geometrical problems with the linkages or rods or whatever, the doors are fairly cleverly set-up in terms of weight and opening power from the torsion bar and gas strut combo. If you ever take things out of the door, like the interior trim panels, brackets, and then a noticeable one is the drop glass, that reduced weight makes the doors really spring up. I believe they are about 90 pounds all put together, and if you take some of that weight out, the balance can get out of line. That can affect how well or easily they open and close. Just thought I'd mention that when you said you might take your solenoids out entirely.

[delgato]

Here is a few other videos that explains the inner workings of the door better.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoyHekngwqo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92JJQG57t1s

I hope this can help you.

[Jonathan]

Just reread what you wrote there Pete, makes me think you were asking about the doors being hard to close "all the way" and not so much what I thought you meant with the force to pull them down. Right?

That can be related to the door alignment with, among other things, the striker pins. They can go in an almost infinite number of positions when you move them up down left or right as well as in and out if you add or remove washers. If the doors clunk a bit when they reach the striker pins, they are probably a little out of alignment. The latches going around those pins have this sort of double click or second position to get them all the way into their desired position. From there the door locks work well. If the doors don't close all the way, often easily seen from outside the car to where the black rub strip going down the side isn't lined up straight, the locking mechanism can have a hard time releasing from this in between position.

Either you or your passenger can get some practice closing the doors with the necessary force from outside and seeing how much is enough to get them into this second latching position. You can lower the door most of the way from outside and then with your palm flat against the edge of the window above the door handle, give it a firm continuing push all the way down. What you can put in terms of force on the door to get it to close well from outside doesn't correspond well from what you feel inside. The dynamics change a bit and it seems like you really need to slam the door from inside to get the same result. Again, practice in your garage or driveway and it can be a combination of pulling the door strap with your right hand while in the driver's seat and also with your left hand on the door armrest together to push it into the closed position.

All of that isn't terribly necessary on a door whose alignment is perfect, but when you add hinges, roof boxes, door seals and the striker pins all moving over time, many doors are far from closing perfect. If you elect to adjust your door pins, try to do it systematically and patiently as it can be a bit of a matter of luck to get it just right. Or just short of right and call it good enough.

[Rich]

I also noticed that generally the doors take a bit of force to close, pretty much no one that's ever jumped in it has got it on the first go, is that normal, or maybe something else that's influencing this locking issue?


The hard-to-shut symptom is probably not related your hard-to-unlock problem. It is probably a separate issue.

There are at least two causes of a hard-to-shut door.

a. Previous owner incorrectly over-torqued the door torsion bar to make up for a blown/worn door strut. New strut later makes the door open too fast and makes door hard to lower. And the over-torqued torsion bar can lead to premature roof box delamination or torsion bar failure. Solution is to de-torque the door.
b. New inner or outer door gaskets. A bit of silicone grease on the gaskets helps that.

The first problem: the door is hard to pull/push down all the way through the stroke.
The second problem: the door lowers with reasonable force but sort of bounces off of the gasketing system at the end.

[Petey]

Hey guys thanks again for the help, I charged up the battery and plugged it back in before testing it today and it all seemed fine. Pretty sure the solenoids are working okay.

I opened the door up though to have a look anyway and there were some whacky things going on due to the fact this car had been converted to right hand drive. But generally it seemed to be working okay, and I'm pretty sure there was no preloading going on.
Im going to have another look tomorrow and cross check with some of those videos
Since I have it open should I grease it up or something? To me it feels like the locking mechanism might be not moving as fluidly as it could.

By the way here is the position the door shuts to - looks a little off but I'm not sure if I'll mess with that as I'm scared it might open a world of pain...
36978


P.

[David T]

If the doors are hard to close that's usually because the door needs alignment and/or the striker pins need to be adjusted. When you force the doors to close you mess up the adjustments of the linkage inside the doors so you wind up having to do that too. Also the latches get sticky and do not move freely because the 30+ year old grease has turned to gum and needs to be removed and the latches cleaned and relubricated. To do it right you have to take the latches out of the door. If you add or remove anything from the doors it changes the balance and will require a torsion bar adjustment. For example if you replace the solenoids with actuators they are lighter and the torsion bars will need to be loosened a notch. Same deal if you take off the metal door guides and go to the plastic ones. Having difficulty opening (or closing) the doors usually does not happen all of a sudden. It happens because the door has been hard to open or close and it gets forced over a period of time so there is ample warning. The doors should close with 2 fingers and open when you pull the handle. If you have to slam them or yank on them to open something is wrong and needs to be fixed BEFORE it gets jammed.

[mluder]

...Or you could be dealing with the scenario I was blessed with... Deformed door.
In my case it appears the previous owner may have driven into a garage with the door open hitting the leading edge against the door jamb. This caused the door to sort of kink across it's axis. The result, I have 5 washer shims on the front striker pin and none on the rear. Cosmetically, the shut lines can never be evened up. If I adjust so the body lines and rub strips at the front of the door line up with the front fender then the edge of the door along the windshield is about a half an inch above windshield trim. Adjusted to close it basically looks like my door is recessed slightly into the side.

Another thing that can happen is the glues used to bond the inner and outer door skin can fail after 30 years. That's right, the in and out of the door were glued together and then seamed. This allow the inner and outer skins to slide around causing all kinds of trouble. I've heard this can be fixed and the seam spot welded to fix it permanently.

Finally - when I replaced my solenoids with actuators, it made no difference on the action of my torsion bars. We turned it down one notch (as David T suggested in his post) and the doors wouldn't open all the way (my struts were new).

The good news (and bad news) is, if it can't be corrected on your car, you're probably the only one who will notice the misalignment. If you're like me it will drive you nuts but, hey, at least you can't see it from inside the car.

Cheers
Steven

[Petey]

Hi all,

I managed to open the door up and have a tinker about. I thought it was all looking okay, then it did it again... 😐
One thing at least is that it seems I can pretty much repro the issue now.
It seems that sometimes when you press the unlock button, it doesn't quite unlock, then when you pull the door release the door opens a tiny bit then stops. At that point it's slightly ajar and you can only open the door by unlocking it from the outside.
I made a quick vid if you have a second, check it out!

https://vimeo.com/140411530

Any ideas?
Thanks,
Pete

[DMCVegas]

Been there, done that.

Here is how to deal with and fix your issue.

Next time the door locks jam, press the door down, and press the internal door handle DOWN instead of pulling up. After being pressed down, the lock switch should move much easier, and will of course allow the locks to function, and the door to open. In order to prevent this from occurring again in the future, you need to lubricate your bellcrank, rods, and most importantly the cable sheath.

DO NOT ADJUST ANY RODS! Truthfully most cars had their door rods set at the factory, the the factory did a good job on these. The only spot of adjustment you *might* ever need is on the external cable if you have replace the door handles. That's about it. Otherwise, leave the internal stuff alone save for lubrication.


So here's a quick explanation of the doors & what makes them unique.

Rather than bore you with this and everything that follows first, I got right into the meat and potatoes of what you need to do to fix this issue. Now comes the part to understand it. It's not uncommon to have dual latches on a door. Car manufacturers do this all this time with Tailgates on trucks, and it's also been used in other applications such as hatch backs & third doors on truck cabs. What makes the DMC-12 different is that whereas the internal handle is connected to bellcrank and tailgate handles connect to their bellcranks with rods, the DeLorean has an extra external handle with a cable and a sheath.



Here is the explanation of what's going on.

So then, here is the problem that causes the whole mess you have: Binding Door Latches.
But how of course do they bind, and what does that mean? Easy. First thing to understand is that your door latches must be in the completely closed position for the internal locks to engage or disengage. If the latch is say partially open, the lock will not engage. Likewise if the door lock isn't fully disabled/disengaged, the latch mechanism itself will not completely open, and the door will remain attached to the striker pin.

The First Problem comes from misadjusted doors. Unless you have an very low VIN, or someone pulled the doors off once upon a time, this isn't even a problem. However, if you do not have Guide Blocks installed, you can have the doors close crooked (especially on an incline), and it will start to cause binding of the latches as they aren't in the proper position to wrap around the striker pins.

https://store.delorean.com/images/Product/large/w300004.jpg

Those blocks will force the door to line up, and engage the striker pins in the exact center each time. Otherwise what happens is the latches can get preloaded as they're pushed against sideways and get jammed against the striker pins making problems for the locking mechanisms.

The Second Problem is a lack of lubrication. Door latches don't exactly need regular maintenance, but after 3 decades of sitting around, especially those cars left outside in dusty areas, they need a bit of lube. Personally, I like Silicone Spray Lubricant. It works great on door latches, lock rods, and the like. 3-in-One Also makes a lock lube too that is great for the tumblers as well.

Warning: Many people warn against using lube on the door latches themselves. It is said that they can work without lube just fine, and are not serviceable. If you have to lube them to get them to work, it's time to replace them. That is simply the warning I have been given. I however have lubed my latches with silicone, and can not only close my doors with a single finger, but I've never had a problem doing so. But since this is a common warning NOT to do what I did, I'm just tossing that out there.

The Third Problem is related to the second: A binding External Door Handle Cable that preloads the Bellcrank. Over time dirt/sand/grit can accumulate inside of the sheath that contains the cable that connects the Outer Door Handle to the Bellcrank. This prevents it from sliding easily, and as such it cannot slide back into the sheath to fully retract. This leads to the Bellcrank to get stuck to where it cannot return back to it's original position. As though you're holding the door handle partially open all the time. And have you ever tried to unlock a door in a car where someone won't let go of the handle? Welp, that just what you've got here.

The fun part is that thanks to the differences in rod lengths, the front latch will close and even lock as the longer front rods flex. But the rear doesn't. Then you can't unlock the front because the rear latch is open and won't let the rod latches move. Then since it can't move the lock rods, you can't move the latch rods. And we get a stuck door. Yay. Which again is cause by binding, which is any of what we've seen above.

This right here is the Bellcrank, and you can see where the cable attaches to it:

http://i.ytimg.com/vi/92JJQG57t1s/hqdefault.jpg

Right there at the top is that little bugger. It keeps pulling back on the Bellcrank, which is the direct it rotates to open the doors. Then it won't allow the latches to function, or the doors to lock. But like I say, the key thing is that it won't go back forward. So, if you push DOWN on the interior door handle, it pulls the External Door Handle Cable FORWARD, and removes all the preload. Then everything can lock, unlock, and then open. Again, only if you've ever replaced the door handles should you fiddle about with it's adjustment. Otherwise, be sure and get that little red straw up there and spray the hell out of that cable sheath until it's flooded. Then spray your Bellcrank, Rods, locks, and movable parts (except the wipe switches), and get your door working again.

[Petey]

Hey Robert,

Thanks heaps for that huge post :) the trick with pushing down the handle worked! And it straight away made me heaps more comfortable! Haven't got around to living it yet but that's the next step for sure! I'll jump on that next week!

Thanks again!
Pete