What's a reasonable price for a replacement engine?

[Farrar]

My car's engine is toast. Since I am only working part-time now while I'm a full-time college student, my "fun" budget is extremely limited. Nonetheless, while I finish school (I graduate in the spring), I want to put the car on the road rather than let it deteriorate in the garage.

Here's the problem. I've never bought a used engine before. Searching online, I've seen some engines that look like crap for $250 all the way up to "guaranteed for 30 days" without pictures for $700. I have no idea what I'd get for the money at any amount. I am not an experienced shopper. I have never even been to a junkyard. I am coming to the community for the voice of experience, since I know some of you have bought used engines before.

Bottom line: how much can I expect to pay for a B28F or otherwise "drop-in" replacement engine?

Thanks in advance.

[davidc89]

Although I don't know how much a used engine would go for, what I can tell you is that no matter what you buy its going to be a gamble. Especially if you can't hear it run.

[David T]

Although I don't know how much a used engine would go for, what I can tell you is that no matter what you buy its going to be a gamble. Especially if you can't hear it run.

Just exactly what is wrong with your engine? Any used engine you buy is a gamble unless you buy it from a vendor who will guarantee it but you still have to put in your labor to R & R it. The cheapest way is to fix your motor unless you blew it up. Even if it overheated all it may need is a valve job. If you ran it without oil and burnt up all of the bearings then replacing it is probably cheaper than rebuilding.

[Farrar]

Just exactly what is wrong with your engine?

Block rot.

[Shuttleman]

Where is the corrosion on the block? Can you post a picture?

[Farrar]

Where is the corrosion on the block? Can you post a picture?

Can't get a picture right now, but I can tell you that I have already patched two rot holes on the top of the engine with epoxy, and it's sprung another leak (or those repairs have failed).

Meanwhile, the engine has either a failed head gasket or cylinder liner (symptom: coolant disappearing into the oil), and a failed rear main seal (symptom: oil leaking from between the engine and transmission). I'm not bothering with those repairs because of the block rot.

The car is sitting while I search for a replacement engine.

[sdg3205]

What about finding a running Volvo car with our engine? They go for pretty cheap and you can test drive the engine! Pull the engine, sell whats left or junk it. Still cheaper than a NOS DMCH crate.

Have you spoken to DPI or DMC franchises about used engines?

[AugustneverEnds]

http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?9063-Engine-donor&highlight=engine+donor

Knew this would come in handy some day, sorry for your troubles though

[Josh]

Just exactly what is wrong with your engine? Any used engine you buy is a gamble unless you buy it from a vendor who will guarantee it but you still have to put in your labor to R & R it. The cheapest way is to fix your motor unless you blew it up. Even if it overheated all it may need is a valve job. If you ran it without oil and burnt up all of the bearings then replacing it is probably cheaper than rebuilding.

It most definitely has a hole in the valley.

I wouldnt spend more than $200 on an engine but thats me. lol

[DMCVegas]

I just did a search over on http://www.car-part.com to check for spare PRVs for sale. It's amazing how quickly in the past 10 years they've suddenly disappeared. Which honestly, I kinda blame Volvo people who have their heads still stuck in 1979 for that.

PRV Engines are a gamble, and they usually get junked because of one of these two legitimate reasons:

They've overheated and blown head gaskets.
The fuel injection system is severely out of tune and is guzzling fuel.


Usually with the overheated engines, those are beater cars that have been thrashed to hell. With the bad fuel mixture cars, those have been running rich a while, and finally got dumped because of their horrible fuel economy.

Me personally, my spare PRV cost me $500. Though it did have a damaged exhaust bolt hole and had no warranty, but I bought it from another owner who knew it ran before it was pulled from a wrecked car. Usually with more plentiful engines, I'd say not to worry, as most places will gladly take back and just exchange it with another out back. But with the PRV, well, you're gonna need some due diligence. Though it does seem as though you're in a good price range.

If I were in your position right now, these are the options that I would consider:


Mothball the car until I was done with school. Then once I have a job, wait until my budget is increased for a rebuilt.
Find a donor engine block, and move over your internal parts. More time consuming, yes. And who knows if you might not have some rusty internal parts. But you do get to learn.
Engine swap with an Eagle Premier 3.0 and EFI.
Go with one of these used engines.


If you want to go with a used PRV engine, here are some tips:

Ask to have the unit compression tested.
Pull the oil filler cap to ensure the plastic screen is still in place. If not, you know the engine has overheated and has damage.
Do some preventative work before installing the engine by replacing the main seals, and other gaskets if needed.
Haggle

[Morpheus]

I think the more important question is: Why are NOS crate motors so goddamned expensive? Is the customers' desire to keep their car stock or original reason enough to command such a premium? $10K for a 34 year old PRV is absolute lunacy.

[DMCVegas]

I think the more important question is: Why are NOS crate motors so goddamned expensive? Is the customers' desire to keep their car stock or original reason enough to command such a premium? $10K for a 34 year old PRV is absolute lunacy.

How often do you actually need one though? Even with Farrar's engine, it could probably be rebuild with a new core block and most of the internal parts cheaper than that. Unless you had massive, widespread, catastrophic damage like a thrown rod on top of an overheated engine, or it was corroded from the inside out from a long-term battery charger.

I also imagine this is probably strategic for Stage II & III Engine sales, but most importantly, Where else you gonna get 0-mile PRV crate engines?

[louielouie2000]

To me, a 3.0 seems the most viable solution for Farrar from a cost & ease of procurement perspective. Since he's Team Carb, I'm not sure if he is interested in delving into EFI, though.

Does anyone know if the Eagle 3.0 engines have the same block rot issues? I'm assuming they don't, since they were originally installed in cars with solid hoods which kept water away from their engine blocks. Also, what's the current status of parts availability for those engines? I'd have to imagine it might be tough to come by some consumables this day and age; or that long-term, it might become a real issue.

[Morpheus]

How often do you actually need one though? Even with Farrar's engine, it could probably be rebuild with a new core block and most of the internal parts cheaper than that. Unless you had massive, widespread, catastrophic damage like a thrown rod on top of an overheated engine, or it was corroded from the inside out from a long-term battery charger.

I also imagine this is probably strategic for Stage II & III Engine sales, but most importantly, Where else you gonna get 0-mile PRV crate engines?

That's precisely my point. They are rarely needed, and I'm sure they would move more inventory if, on the occasion a replacement is required, the pricing was a little more reasonable.

A 0-mile PRV sitting on a shelf for 30 years is not a goldmine, in the same vein as a DeLorean stored in a barn for 30 years isn't a goldmine. It is most certainly going to require a complete teardown and rebuild, just like the 0-mile engine would.

I get the whole "scarcity" and "supply and demand" thing, but doesn't Houston have hundreds of these engines? Doesn't seem all that scarce to me.

[Morpheus]

Does anyone know if the Eagle 3.0 engines have the same block rot issues? I'm assuming they don't, since they were originally installed in cars with solid hoods which kept water away from their engine blocks.

It's not so much the water (rain or otherwise) that causes block rot, it's the leaky coolant hoses running through the valley. Coolant leaks/is corrosive and rot happens.

Alternatively, I have seen instances where chunks of the block are prone to just break away in the valley area; i'm not sure if block rot is the culprit in that case, or if it's just a weakness in the PRV's design.

[Delorean Industries]

3.0 blocks do not have the same issues as the earlier 2.7/2.8 versions. The allow content changed in mid 1984 and again in sept/oct of 1986 where it remained the same until the end of PRV production.

3.0 liners are not interchangeable with 2.8 units and vice versa. We manufacture 2.8 liners with a lower bore cup that matches the 3.0 block. Making it possible to make a odd fire engine work within the 3.0 block or run an even fire crank with the 2.8 displacement and custom liners with bushed 3.0 rods to fit the 2.8 version.

[Delorean Industries]

Stock configuration odd fire engines are not that expensive. We have worked to drop our cost of producing a unit superior to even a factory NOS perfect condition engine considerably. Available on our site currently under the factory spec option.

[DMCVegas]

It's not so much the water (rain or otherwise) that causes block rot, it's the leaky coolant hoses running through the valley. Coolant leaks/is corrosive and rot happens.

Alternatively, I have seen instances where chunks of the block are prone to just break away in the valley area; i'm not sure if block rot is the culprit in that case, or if it's just a weakness in the PRV's design.

Looking at this thread with pictures of the 3.0L's intake manifold removed, it would seem that there is still this possibility of block rot.

The coolant is definitely a problem, but I think it's also compounded by dead, rotting leaves also turns acidic against the aluminum. The weakness in the design are those pits that cannot drain. They're necessary to cut down on engine weight and to strengthen the block assembly, but it doesn't let anything drain off.

[DMCVegas]

3.0 blocks do not have the same issues as the earlier 2.7/2.8 versions. The allow content changed in mid 1984 and again in sept/oct of 1986 where it remained the same until the end of PRV production.

3.0 liners are not interchangeable with 2.8 units and vice versa. We manufacture 2.8 liners with a lower bore cup that matches the 3.0 block. Making it possible to make a odd fire engine work within the 3.0 block or run an even fire crank with the 2.8 displacement and custom liners with bushed 3.0 rods to fit the 2.8 version.

But that's just the block though, correct? You're still running 2.8 internals like the crank, cams, and the 2.8 Cylinder Heads as well, right?

[dn010]

Also, what's the current status of parts availability for those engines? I'd have to imagine it might be tough to come by some consumables this day and age; or that long-term, it might become a real issue.

I'm not sure if it is the same with the 3.0, but at least on the B280F things like gaskets and timing chains are easy to come by and aren't expensive at all. When you get into wear items like bearings and timing chain guides, that's where it becomes more expensive and more difficult to find.

Anytime I've gotten a used engine, the first thing to do is drop the pan and see what you're dealing with inside - in this case you'd also have to drop the lower crankcase. Even a good running engine sometimes has internal issues that should be corrected before install unless you plan on pulling the engine again and again.

[Delorean Industries]

we manufacture guide wear plates, have easily 800 plus complete timing chain sets oil and vacuum sealed etc. The PRV is far from ever going extinct on the merits of what we are doing for it alone. Not to mention others out there as well. Engine swaps will never become the norm due to this.


Regarding what all changed in the PRV manufacturing process other than the blocks. The list is extremely long. The heads were updated significantly over the years along with the casting alloys used etc. It would take a few days to bring this information together into presentable form. I have years of documented research on the subject including the engineering behind it. As with almost everything in life practice makes perfect. As time progressed the manufacturing of the PRV evolved for the better.

[dn010]

we manufacture guide wear plates, have easily 800

Wish I knew that, I guess I can stop buying them whenever they pop up for sale now!

[Josh]

Back on topic... I would highly recommend a 3.0 with megasquirt. Could be done for under 1000$ if planned right. Another alternative is 3.0 with megajolt and keep your carb. Benefit to this is you dont need to touch your fuel system. Intake would slide right on with some spacers. I think the 3.0 is key here though for availability and cost.

If you ever do go this way, mail me your crank pulley and ill send you back a crank position sensor setup :)

[Farrar]

Thanks for all of the information, everyone. I am making a mental checklist.

The 3.0L Premier/Monaco engine is much easier to find, it seems.

MegaJolt with Ford EDIS would seem a viable and affordable option for the later Premier/Monaco engines that did not have an ignition distributor. That would solve one problem, but still leave the problem of fueling. I don't believe a 3.0L engine could easily be carbureted, because -- if memory serves -- the intake manifolds have different footprints and bolt patterns between the 2.85L and the 3.0L, and no carbureted 3.0L was ever produced.

Re: crank position sensor -- the Premier doesn't already have one?

I should also mention that #2613 is an automatic. I'm not sure if it would make an engine swap more or less difficult over a manual, since I have not done an engine swap before.

[DMCVegas]

The 3.0L Premier/Monaco engine is much easier to find, it seems.
This is probably due to a younger age, but again why I blame the Volvo people for the PRV hatred since 760 GLEs PRVs are scarce, yet I can find lousy Peugeot 4-bangers everywhere...



MegaJolt with Ford EDIS would seem a viable and affordable option for the later Premier/Monaco engines that did not have an ignition distributor.
Actually the 88-90 engines DO have a distributor. It is attached to the end of the right camshaft. HOWEVER, it is NOT adjustable. You cannot adjust the timing whatsoever. The Engine ECU still took care of that one. 91 & 92 Engines deleted the dizzy and went full DIS.



I don't believe a 3.0L engine could easily be carbureted, because -- if memory serves -- the intake manifolds have different footprints and bolt patterns between the 2.85L and the 3.0L, and no carbureted 3.0L was ever produced.
Correct. Since there are no bungs for K-Jet Injectors, and LH-Jet & Renix moved the injectors into the manifolds, the intake ports are bigger. Makes for a much better flowing head though. No Carbureted 3.0L exists to my knowledge. Though that doesn't mean you couldn't fabricate something. Like say maybe a Webber carburetor on top of the throttle...



Re: crank position sensor -- the Premier doesn't already have one?
It does. It's trigger ring is already welded to the Flexplate. But the Sensor itself might be still attached to the Bellhousing.



I should also mention that #2613 is an automatic. I'm not sure if it would make an engine swap more or less difficult over a manual, since I have not done an engine swap before.
The biggest questions here would be:

Will the DMC-12's Bellhousing fit the Premier/Monaco's Flexplate?
If the Premier/Monaco's Torque Converter doesn't match the input shaft to the Transaxle, will the Flexplate still accept the DMC-12's Torque Converter?


Otherwise I don't see any reason that the Transmission Computer cares what kind of engine is bolted up since it operates independently. Otherwise, you're going to have to install the DMC-12 Flexplate & Torque Converter and go with a Crank Trigger.

[Josh]

Robert covered the bases very well

I would not screw around with the flex plate trigger wheel even though you have an auto. mounting the sensor is a concern as well as the tooth pattern is funky. You would still need to run megasquirt/megajolt unless you are a sucker for punishment and run the eagle ecu.

Just to re-iterate just because it has a distributor does not mean it is good to go. There is no advance of any sort. the rotor is directly connected to the camshaft. For this reason you would need to switch to coil pack ignition with megajolt or full on fuel and spark with megasquirt. Both require a crank position sensor.

OR do some funky work with the heads and cams and fit in a delorean distributor. I believe bill mentioned he was going to pursue this.

[DMCVegas]

I would not screw around with the flex plate trigger wheel even though you have an auto. mounting the sensor is a concern as well as the tooth pattern is funky. You would still need to run megasquirt/megajolt unless you are a sucker for punishment and run the eagle ecu.
I don't even know if the trigger wheel works with Megasquirt. And I absolutely wouldn't touch the old Renix stuff. That one custom widebody DeLorean in flat black (I can't remember who owns that car) has an Eagle Premier 3.0L engine swap, and that started out with the Eagle's Renix ECU, and it never worked. And it was pulled out of a fully functioning Premier that was driven into the garage for the swap, so it was known to be good.


Just to re-iterate just because it has a distributor does not mean it is good to go. There is no advance of any sort. the rotor is directly connected to the camshaft. For this reason you would need to switch to coil pack ignition with megajolt or full on fuel and spark with megasquirt. Both require a crank position sensor.
Absolutely correct. *MAYBE* you could set up a jig to router out slots in the bottom of the distributor housing to actually *make* the thing adjustable. But the problem then exists where the screws that hold the dizzy in place are all internal. It's not like an traditional dizzy where you can have external flanges that are held in by bolts. At that point you'd then have to weld or epoxy on a custom external flange, and then drill & tap the Timing Chain Cover (somewhere it doesn't interfere with the internal moving parts) to mount a locking screw. Then you have to disasseble the dizzy again and torque down the internal screws, and hope it isn't off-kilter from bumping it. Otherwise you start again. Or to put it another way, it's so not worth it.


OR do some funky work with the heads and cams and fit in a delorean distributor. I believe bill mentioned he was going to pursue this.
I've seen a 2.8L DeLorean PRV with 3.0 Internals using the stock cylinder heads. Aside from grinding the ribs under the rocker covers for clearance, it had a custom cut drive gear that was slid onto the camshaft. And I was told it was such a pain in the ass to get aligned just right (let alone fabricated), that it wasn't even worth it.

[David T]

Even with "block rot" and a coolant leak the cheapest option is still to repair what you got. If that's not what you want then store the car till you can afford other, more expensive alternatives.

[Farrar]

I can't just epoxy over the whole engine valley...

[David T]

I can't just epoxy over the whole engine valley...


Sure you can. Or better yet you have a plate welded in. Worst case you get another block and move your internals over to it.

[Delorean Industries]

We make 3.0 heads into 2.8 odd fires all the time.

[m_w]

I run a 3.0 premier in my car. Been running nicely most of the summer. It did take me a while to get the tune right, but I think its solved now.37288

[Josh]

Sure you can. Or better yet you have a plate welded in. Worst case you get another block and move your internals over to it.

Please no....

[Delorean Industries]

blown away by how the advice exponentially worsens with the more you post. :hmm:

[DMCVegas]

We make 3.0 heads into 2.8 odd fires all the time.

Sooo... Where are the Injector Bungs?

[Delorean Industries]

In the turtle.

[DMCVegas]

You mean the Intake Manifold? I thought that "turtles" were air deflectors that sat inside of the manifolds, directly below the throttle body egress.

[Delorean Industries]

You mean the Intake Manifold? I thought that "turtles" were air deflectors that sat inside of the manifolds, directly below the throttle body egress.

Nope the turtle. It looks like one.

[DMCVegas]

Nope the turtle. It looks like one.

http://www.reactionface.info/sites/default/files/imagecache/Node_Page/images/1313346644283.jpg

[Delorean Industries]

Huh? Look at one it looks like a turtle shell with the runner legs

[opethmike]

Dave, do you actually have any real world experience with block rot? If you did, you would know that just about NOBODY has succeeded with either welding on a plate, or epoxying. Stop giving useless advice.

[Farrar]

The engine is leaking oil as it sits. When the engine runs, an alarming amount of oil comes out and gets everywhere. You can't touch anything in the engine compartment without your fingers coming off black. The oil coats the wires and the frame. It drips off of every surface. It coats the underside of the engine compartment cover. It gums up the air filter. It gets unto the vacuum lines.

And coolant is leaking into the oil, which thins it out. Perhaps this is why it leaks so prolifically.

I should also mention that I have a rather small work space:
37290

I do have a friend with a large garage and a lift, about 60 miles away, but I wouldn't want to have to leave my car there and drive two hours every day to work on my car while we try to get it running after an engine swap... so the quickest solution would be the best one, for me.

[DMCVegas]

Huh? Look at one it looks like a turtle shell with the runner legs

http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130511212747/clubpenguin/images/0/00/Funny-facepalm-meme-computer.jpg

Ok then... Is it the stock locations where the EFI Injectors plug in at?

[Delorean Industries]

Correct on the turtle runners.

and to answer the above question. A 2.8 manifold will not fit a 3.0 properly even with the required .688 adapter flanges. Two different port styles and orientation creating a steep as (blank) step in the intake track.

[DMCVegas]

(ノಠ益ಠ)ノ彡┻━┻

Turtles don't have 6 legs!

[David T]

I know of 1 car that has been successfully repaired with epoxy. Not all have been successful. A lot has to do with prep. It was done by Rob at PJ Grady. I personally have done a lot of cast iron welding (not on Deloreans). How successful is all in the prep. If you are not comfortable with a repaired block then get another and move your parts over to it. If you buy a used motor you don't know how rotten it is or if it even works.

[Ras12]

So to come full circle, ASSUMING all the options are available at a reasonable price, it sounds like the easiest alternative for an engine replacement is...

(In order of easiest to most difficult to swap)

1) replace with a used DMC engine;
2) replace with a used Volvo engine;
3) replace with a 3.0 engine;
4) replace with Chevy, Supra, etc. engine.

Correct?

[DMCVegas]

The engine is leaking oil as it sits. When the engine runs, an alarming amount of oil comes out and gets everywhere. You can't touch anything in the engine compartment without your fingers coming off black. The oil coats the wires and the frame. It drips off of every surface. It coats the underside of the engine compartment cover. It gums up the air filter. It gets unto the vacuum lines.

And coolant is leaking into the oil, which thins it out. Perhaps this is why it leaks so prolifically.

It sounds as though you've just got a blown head gasket.

That will result in sludge that first clogs the oil breather cap as it tries to suck the crankcase gasses up to be burned off. Now it's sucking up a huge amount of water vapor that cools and condensates along with the oil inside of the cap and slowly clogs it up. Once that gets blocked, the excess pressure inside of the crank case will build and then cause the oil to spray a steady mist out of the front and rear main seals around the crank shaft. It just sprays oil everywhere. All across the rear bumper & muffler, and then the Crankshaft Pulley does double duty as it slings contaminated oil EVERYWHERE when it spins. Not to mention the turbulent airflow around the engine as you drive just causes the mist to go everywhere. I had this same exact problem. Then I popped the chain-like element out of the breather cap, dropped it into some Chemtool dip overnight, installed it the next day, and the problem went away.

For about 3 days. Which was about how long it took to "drink" about 3 quarts of coolant.

Now if the block itself is totally toasted, then yes, it's time to replace. But what I would first do is pull the intake manifold and check your epoxy repairs down in the VOD.

I don't know for sure since I'm not there, but it is possible that your epoxy repair was successful, and that you're just dealing with a blown head gasket. If that is the case, your cylinder heads just need to be checked out. If they're ok, you might just need to install some fresh head gaskets and be good to go.

[opethmike]

I know of 1 car that has been successfully repaired with epoxy. Not all have been successful. A lot has to do with prep. It was done by Rob at PJ Grady. I personally have done a lot of cast iron welding (not on Deloreans). How successful is all in the prep. If you are not comfortable with a repaired block then get another and move your parts over to it. If you buy a used motor you don't know how rotten it is or if it even works.

ONE single one? Out of how many? Even if it is possible with the "proper prep" the chances are astronomically small, rendering it to be bad advice.

Not sure why you're bringing up cast iron, as that has nothing to do with the scenario either.

[David T]

Repairing cast iron is similar to welding aluminum. It must be carefully prepped and the temperature closely controlled. It takes a certain knack, skill and experience to do it. Anyway, you are correct in that there are not a lot of successfully repaired blocks out there. Another point to make is most of the blocks that are repaired don't fail immediately, it takes a while so in the meantime you really don't know if the repair was successful. I am just trying to say it is possible to repair the block under the correct conditions. If you were to get another used motor how do you know if it isn't about to spring a leak? At least you know what you got and aren't going to spend a lot of money on a used part of dubious value. I consider repairing an option.

[Andrew]

The engine that is currently in 5052 has been running with a welded motor mount ear since 2002 (the ear snapped off while trying to remove a seized / broken motor mount stud). I ended up taking the entire engine to a welding shop which was experienced in aluminum repairs. From what I recall, the repair cost was $80.

As long as the welder is knowledgeable in the art and skill of working with aluminum, they shouldn't have too much difficulty making a lasting repair.

[Delorean Industries]

Broken ear with clean material is much different that eroded aluminum in the valley. Block rot isn't a clean brake. The material decays to a fine dust.

[DMCVegas]

I'm gonna shove a quarter or two in here and play...

http://www.ew.com/sites/default/files/i/2012/04/20/devils_advocate_500_0.jpg

Stainless Steel and Aluminum both have a shared property where they create a thin layer of oxidation that actually seals the metal off and prevents further rust. Stainless protects the Carbon portion with its Chromium content to create Chromium Oxide. Aluminum just sacrifices the outer layer of itself to create Aluminum Oxide. Aluminum of course *can* corrode as we have seen with block rot. But, and someone please correct me if I'm wrong here, you need something like Mercury to act as an amalgamate to continually strip away that layer of aluminum Oxide to actually act as a cancer that has to be cut out before ALL aluminum is completely destroyed. Otherwise to weld up aluminum, you just need to cut a clean surface to weld back.

Likewise if we have rotting vegetation that creates the acidic environment that corrodes the aluminum, once the sludge is removed, the process is stopped completely.

Now if you have a hole down inside one of the pockets in the VOD, that *should* be repairable. Granted it's not an easy repair for both location, as well as fire risk with all of the oil on the other side. But why wouldn't welding fix block rot? Now I do admit that if the block rot has destroyed the ribs across the top of the pockets, yes, that block is possibly gone as those are structural supports for the entire block. Welding that up might be a different story all together.

So far, I honestly don't see how David T is wrong? And I'm not taking sides here at all. But I just want to get down to some basic fact finding on this.

And I know that we've gotten a bit off topic with Farrar's original question. But it seems that his engine might not be as bad as he thinks it is. And others who will encounter this problem in the future should also be able to know their options as well.

[Delorean Industries]

You are assuming that the block is bad only where it failed.... This conversation serves no purpose and continues to miseducated owners as with the rest of this forum as a whole. Public opinion is the most dangerous advice of all. People without the proper knowledge should be allocated into a private forum where view points and improper courses of action will not accidentally influence the general population without those reading being fully aware of the consequences of taking shade tree advice. It's simple. Block rots... Replace.

[DMCVegas]

I wouldn't say that the conversation serves no purpose whatsoever. If you're saying that if there is block rot in one place, that chances are it's all over and thereby makes the entire block unsalvageable due to either integrity or cost prohibitive factors, I think that's a good thing to share.

I'm not here to simply "win" an argument. I'm just fact finding is all. If what you say is true, then you've absolutely changed my mind about things. My opinion changes on things as new facts get presented, as should other peoples' as well. No shame in that. But like you I just want to make sure that we don't have misinformation floating around.

Along these lines, we already know of the VOD. Where else should we check for block rot at when inspecting an engine/car?

[Delorean Industries]

The back two deep cavities are normally the worst. This is due to contamination build up etc in the back portion or a leaking hydraulic system on a manual car. The worst thing you can do is seal a block without properly cleaning. To do so prior to coating with anything you must chem dip, wash in a caustic tank, dip again, mask and media blast, pre prep with a moderate PH based cleaner and then coat. Sealing the valley other wise will take away the protection it normally has. If you remove the air from the situation and leave the contamination it will progress faster. Oxidation and build up of a contamination/shed layer is crucial if the block is not prepped properly.

The other two main issues are the head gasket surface near the oil returns. The gasket deteriorates over time due to carbon erosion. This is from oil contamination etc from the combustion process. The last major concern is sediment build up at the base of the liner cavities. Mainly but not always at the lowest point in the system. This will literally eat the block from the inside out and is the fate of most crate engines sold in the last ten years.

[Bitsyncmaster]

The aluminum pipe used in all the cooling system is another place I found pitting. It was mostly on the drivers side closer to the engine. It seemed to only be a problem under where the hose had been clamped onto the pipe. The inside of the pipes looked very clean. So it looks like the coolant has something to do with the corrosion.

That was back when I had money (a job) so I bought all new NOS pipes and had them powder coated.

[Delorean Industries]

Please tell me not on the inside of the pipes...

[Bitsyncmaster]

Please tell me not on the inside of the pipes...

The inside was fine but the outside had a few pits that almost went through. The inside of the pipes on the right side of the car looked brand new. It's funny the pitting was under the hoses ends so it must be something with the hose rubber and coolant.

This is very common on the pipe cap over the thermostat on all cars I've had.

[Farrar]

If you buy a used motor you don't know how rotten it is or if it even works.

Engine, not motor.

And anyway, there are some vendors who guarantee their engines to be not seized, not rusted, etc. and offer a 30-day return guarantee. So it's not necessarily as bad as you seem to think, perhaps.


It sounds as though you've just got a blown head gasket.

From pessimism to optimism... So, what's the best head gasket to buy? Oh, never mind, I'll just call Josh at DPI, who only stocks the best. ;)

I see there have been a boatload of replies since the last time I checked in. Sorry I haven't been around to answer them all -- either Gmail or vBulletin is doing something weird where I don't get notifications that there's been a reply to a thread I'm subscribed to until a few days after the reply has been posted.

Anyway, we got off the track a little bit, but I appreciate all of the input here so far.

What's the best way to test for a head gasket leak without the engine running? I have a compression tester ... should I hook it up and look for bubbles in the coolant?

-Farrar

[DMCVegas]

From pessimism to optimism... So, what's the best head gasket to buy? Oh, never mind, I'll just call Josh at DPI, who only stocks the best. ;)


Honestly yes, call Josh on this one. And please, let us know what you find too. I've heard rumors that the Fel Pro gaskets are the way to go compared to the Volvo ones, and that the stock DMCH ones aren't as good as what went on at the factory in Douvrin... So I've no damn clue as to what is going on, and wouldn't be in any position to give advice on that one.


I see there have been a boatload of replies since the last time I checked in. Sorry I haven't been around to answer them all -- either Gmail or vBulletin is doing something weird where I don't get notifications that there's been a reply to a thread I'm subscribed to until a few days after the reply has been posted.

Anyway, we got off the track a little bit, but I appreciate all of the input here so far.

What's the best way to test for a head gasket leak without the engine running? I have a compression tester ... should I hook it up and look for bubbles in the coolant?

-Farrar

No worries at all. My wife is going to school to finish her degree, and working at the same time. So I know how hectic things can get.

As for blown head gaskets, it's funny because we were talking about that not too long ago in another thread.
http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?12537-Ooze-Theory

I've got two engines, one with a good head gasket, and one with a blown one. I finally got around to creating a side-by-side comparison of the photos that I promised previously, and here they are. The first photo is of the oil filler cap.

http://i1165.photobucket.com/albums/q593/DMCVegas/Oil%20Caps_zpsbozpy7yb.jpg

On the left you can see the Oil Filler Cap from the PRV with a blown Head Gasket. Lots of people will tell you that when water gets into oil, it looks like chocolate milk. Now that might be true for differentials and whatnot when that oil gets exposed to muddy water. But when it's coolant that gets mixed in with engine oil, it looks nothing like chocolate milk. It looks like snot.

On the right side you see a clean oil cap on a properly running engine with a good head gasket. Inside of the Oil Filler Cap is part #102418; Filter Cartridge. DMCH doesn't sell, or even list this part. I've no idea why. But rest assured, it is serviceable. The bottom insert pops right out with a screwdriver. When you pull it out, it looks like a roll of chain link fencing that someone clipped together. Drop it in a bucket of parts cleaner, and it's good to go. But again, this is where Crank Case gasses get sucked up into the intake to be burned off. They all get pulled through that Filter. I imagine that it is probably for situations just like this, to keep the intake manifold and air inlet assembly clean. So when enough of this goop goes in there to get clogged, that's when you have excess pressures build up in the crank case. And the only real way out for them is though the main seals on the crankshaft ends.

Next up are the Oil Filler Necks.

http://i1165.photobucket.com/albums/q593/DMCVegas/Oil%20Filler%20Necks_zpshovfl5ll.jpg

Again the engine with the blown head gasket is on the left. The first thing that you notice is the absence of a screen. I don't even know what the part number for that thing is. But what I do know is that it's this clear-ish plastic screen that just sits down in there. It looks gold because it's been stained by the oil. But if an engine ever overheats at all, that little screen will melt faster than a crayon on asphalt in summertime. It becomes this deformed, white blob of plastic that starts to drip down. Looks nasty. And during the next oil change it'll be removed. Now I don't know if the 3.0L engines have that screen. But what I can tell you about the 2.7 & 2.8 models is if you ever see that screen deformed or missing, you know you're dealing with an over heated engine.

Also, look at the top of the Filler Neck. You can see all of that rust from where the water vapor has been condensing.

Now I don't know if there is a specific way for you to check the liners at the bottom of the block for leaking per se. But once you slide the heads off, you should see some obvious damage of where the head gasket is torn/deformed, and there would be streaks of coolant or rust where there shouldn't be any.

[Farrar]

Robert, that greenish/yellowish crap is EXACTLY what my car has had on the bottom of its oil cap for over three years. I was told that I simply wasn't driving the car enough to get it hot, and so condensation was collecting there, and just to change the oil more often. Well, live and learn.

I have never once seen that plastic filter screen. Thanks for the photo. That was informative -- and disheartening. It means that my car's engine had been overheated and the previous owner never even told me about it. I guess I overpaid. Again, live and learn.

I looked up what it takes to change a head gasket on a PRV. There is absolutely no way I can do that -- there are too many special tools required, and I, too, am finishing out college while working part-time.

It looks like I will have to prepare this car for long-term storage. I graduate in the spring, and after that I will (I hope) have a full-time job again, and I will have new options to consider after that time.

Thanks, everyone, for all your help and suggestions -- and Robert especially for the photos.

[Farrar]

I guess one way to check for a head gasket leak is to look at your oil dipstick two days apart and if the level goes up, yet you're dripping oil on the floor, you've got a head gasket leak. Another symptom I guess is coolant disappearing from the expansion tank.

Looks like Robert's diagnosis was right on. I've put the car up on jackstands and am draining the oil/coolant tonight. Going to prep the car for long-term inactivity.

Thanks for all your help, gang!

[Rich_NYS]

I have never once seen that plastic filter screen. Thanks for the photo. That was informative -- and disheartening. It means that my car's engine had been overheated and the previous owner never even told me about it. I guess I overpaid. Again, live and learn.

+1, thanks Robert that was very informative for sure.

Sorry to hear the diagnosis, Farrar.

[DMCVegas]

That whole, "You're not driving the car to get it hot enough" line really only applies if you live in a very cold climate, where you never warm your engine up before driving, and your commute is so short that the bitter cold never lets it warm up. On top of that, it also has to do with the particular engine design too. The Chrysler PowerTech engines with their oil filler necks are perfect examples of this. Not just a design problem, but also a very common one too. So if this was a problem with your DeLorean not warming up as these people told you, trust me that it would be a common enough issue that it would have been covered decades ago.

Make sure that if nothing else, you also prep the fuel system before you drain the coolant and decommission the engine. Otherwise you'll have to pull the injectors and let them spray into some jars or something to do this. Burning the fuel off inside of the engine is a bit safer though. That way when you're ready to get the car back onto the road, you won't have to deal with an expensive fuel system repair.

Now I don't know about the risks of rust on the crankshaft, connecting rods, bearings, and oil passages. But that snot is probably all over the inside of the engine. I had asked Rob Grady about long-term problems with internal rust on the PRV in that other thread, but he never responded. So I don't know if there is a risk of internal rust causing permanent damage, or if you can just pull the block and get it hot tanked.*â€*

In any case, if you DO have a blown head gasket, where water has gone into the combustion chambers (mine started with just water in the oil passages with no steam in the exhaust), you're also going to want to pull the spark plugs, and vacuum, or blow all of the water out of them. Then when you're done and the cylinders are dry, fog the combustion chambers. I know that Sta-Bil and Marvel Mystery Oil can both be used, just make certain that they, or whatever other product you choose to use, are safe for catalytic convertors.

Right now you're planning ahead for the future. The biggest problem with that is that we never know what the future holds in store. 6 months turned into 10 years for me. So please, learn from my mistakes. You've got to go ahead and plan for that worst case scenario. Along those lines too, you've also got to keep some options open, and decide about what you might just want to do down the line. You've got some block problems, and who knows about what else might be going on. Probably nothing else, though Josh does say that you probably do have other problems. In any case, it might just be easier to drop a 3.0L in with EFI rather than rebuild your 2.8L. Plus you could sell of the K-Jetronic parts to offset the cost.

Or you could even go with another engine swap entirely. Who knows. But I would at least plan on preserving as much as you currently have right now in order to keep your options open later.



*Old Fashioned "Hot Tank" chemicals are NOT safe for aluminum blocks. There are however less caustic chemicals now that are safe for aluminum. You just have to find a shop that offers that service.

â€*Given the fact that you already have an epoxy repair on the VOD for block rot, you also might want to instead clean the disassembled block by hand. Get a blow gun to blow out passages, and some Simple Green, if not Chemtool as well. And rest assured, it will probably be messy. But, it could save the block. If you wanted.

[Farrar]

Thanks for the info, Robert. Since I have at least two "block rot" holes in the engine valley, I plan to just replace the engine when time allows.