DMC 12 modifications

[Antileon]

Hi
I am considering a Stage ll engine, but I am not certain if the difference is significant enough to justify the investment and wonder if it in reality would reduce the sales value of the car since it no longer will be original ?
Any takes on that ?
thanks from deep frozen Denmark

[iflights]

Hi
I am considering a Stage ll engine, but I am not certain if the difference is significant enough to justify the investment and wonder if it in reality would reduce the sales value of the car since it no longer will be original ?
Any takes on that ?
thanks from deep frozen Denmark

Interested in the same topic.

However, are you talking about a Stage II "crate" engine, or a Stage II upgrade to your existing engine?

[Dangermouse]

I would have thought that being in Denmark, that you would have access to various turbo PRV conversions from later Renault models that would give you a bigger HP bump.

I properly done Stage II (at Ed's?) should only add to the value of the car.

[Antileon]

Interested in the same topic.

However, are you talking about a Stage II "crate" engine, or a Stage II upgrade to your existing engine?

I was considering a upgrade

[88KPH]

you would have access to various turbo PRV conversions from later Renault models that would give you a bigger HP bump.




My engine is going well, and my bank account is empty, but what is recommended?
Would be interesting to keep an eye open for the right bargain car/engine for future fun. Wouldn't want over 200bhp.

[Gregadeth]

From what I've seen, a Stage II doesn't reduce the value of a car. But only you can determine if the HP gain justifies the price. Find someone with a Stage II and see if they'll let you test drive it or even ride in one as a passenger (more likely). You may have to travel a bit.

[sdg3205]

Expensive, yes. Have I ever met someone unhappy with it? No.

[opethmike]

Heads/cams/exhaust do make a nice difference. But the car is still slow, just not as slow. I did mine myself with aftermarket cams/heads/exhaust, and it was a few grand to do.

The performance gains are not worth it for what you would have to pay someone to do the install for you, or for an upgraded crate engine.

[Nicholas R]

Wouldn't want over 200bhp.

Wouldn't? Is this an arbitrary number or is there something about 200hp?:hmm:

[88KPH]

No, As said I am quite happy with my engine at present but I do feel the D is under-powered and 180/190 would make it nicer drive.
Above that, for me, its more about a number game than making it drive better.
I was just wondering about the most cost effective way of getting that kind of useable power while keeping it V6.

[Bitsyncmaster]

No, As said I am quite happy with my engine at present but I do feel the D is under-powered and 180/190 would make it nicer drive.
Above that, for me, its more about a number game than making it drive better.
I was just wondering about the most cost effective way of getting that kind of useable power while keeping it V6.

Your probably not going to be able to recover the expenses of an upgrade when you sell the car if those are the numbers your looking for.

[88KPH]

No plans to sell, so not really a concern.

[David T]

The Stage II makes sense IF your motor is no good and must be replaced. To just replace a good motor with a Stage II to get a few more HP doesn't make sense economically. What CAN make sense is to put an Island Turbo kit on if you can find one. Not as expensive and you get a LOT more power.

[opethmike]

The Stage II makes sense IF your motor is no good and must be replaced. To just replace a good motor with a Stage II to get a few more HP doesn't make sense economically. What CAN make sense is to put an Island Turbo kit on if you can find one. Not as expensive and you get a LOT more power.

No it doesn't make sense. The kit, like you said, if you can find one, is not that much cheaper. The power output IS extremely close to a stage 2. Plus, you end up dealing with a poorly designed turbo kit that risks detonation, blow by; and not to mention is quite laggy.

[opethmike]

No, As said I am quite happy with my engine at present but I do feel the D is under-powered and 180/190 would make it nicer drive.
Above that, for me, its more about a number game than making it drive better.
I was just wondering about the most cost effective way of getting that kind of useable power while keeping it V6.

Unfortunately, there really isn't an economical way to get to the 180-190 horsepower territory while retaining the PRV 2.85 V6. You would have to go forced induction with either turbos or a supercharger. Even with only 5 PSI, the stock internals are vulnerable, particularly with how difficult the stock ignition & fuel systems are to modify for forced induction.

To keep the engine safe and reliable, you would need to go with said forced induction, modern engine management (fuel and ignition control via an ECU such as Megasquirt), as well as intercooling and possibly new pistons/sleeves if you want to exceed 5 PSI.

You'll see the 190 at the crank number come up quite a lot for the heads/cams/exhaust combination. But I call bunk on that. Cars with h/c/e regularly dyno at 140-145 at the wheels. This would mean 160 at the crank, as a reasonable real world drive train loss is around 15%. Many people claim that the DeLorean has a 30% drive train loss, but that's some arbitrary, magically large drive train loss that no other car suffers from.

[PJ Grady Inc.]

My engine is going well, and my bank account is empty, but what is recommended?
Would be interesting to keep an eye open for the right bargain car/engine for future fun. Wouldn't want over 200bhp.

Empty bank accounts are incompatible with Deloreans let alone modified ones. That being said if you do your own install a set of cams, with a rebuild kit, and a header system will net you maybe 30 horses and set you back a little over $3000- but you'll always find more stuff to replace "while you're in there". Things like fuel lines, water pump, clutch slave, tuneup items etc come to mind. After the mods be prepared to live with an (even) lumpier idle and less bottom end so you'll be revving the engine higher to find that extra power. If you're paying someone to do it you can double the cost. To get 190 you need to break the motor down and add high comp. pistons and EFI or go turbo as Mike already said. A stage two motor will not take you there. That's fiction! Deloreans....aren't built for speed. If you want that in a related package it's easier to by a Lotus and be done with it! Otherwise "if you wanna play you gotta pay"!
Rob

[88KPH]

Interesting thanks, I only got the Delorean last year so really I'm just happy its just running ok but.........
Forgetting authenticity for abit, Is there no cheap, but more powerful, 90's(?) Renaults/Volvos V6's that can/are fitted with the aid of a couple of engine mounts/adaptor plate/ECU?
I come from the world of old VW and this type of conversion is fairly common, usually subaru, Porsche or VW TDi.

[opethmike]

Interesting thanks, I only got the Delorean last year so really I'm just happy its just running ok but.........
Forgetting authenticity for abit, Is there no cheap, but more powerful, 90's(?) Renaults/Volvos V6's that can/are fitted with the aid of a couple of engine mounts/adaptor plate/ECU?
I come from the world of old VW and this type of conversion is fairly common, usually subaru, Porsche or VW TDi.

Not really, no. I'm not entirely familiar with the European market of PRVs, but here in the States the only option is the 3.0 liter from a Dodge Monaco/Eagle Premier. This is more complicated than just engine mounts though. You need to swap the lower crank case, install and tune an engine management system from the ground-up, as well as fabricate a number of brackets to accommodate the necessary sensors, throttle cable re-routing, etc.

I don't want to be a Debbie Downer, but if you want more than another 20-30 horsepower either cheaply or easily, it simply isn't going to happen with a DMC.

[PJ Grady Inc.]

Interesting thanks, I only got the Delorean last year so really I'm just happy its just running ok but.........
Forgetting authenticity for abit, Is there no cheap, but more powerful, 90's(?) Renaults/Volvos V6's that can/are fitted with the aid of a couple of engine mounts/adaptor plate/ECU?
I come from the world of old VW and this type of conversion is fairly common, usually subaru, Porsche or VW TDi.

You can install a later 2.8 even fire PVR or a 3.0 for maybe a 30 horsepower gain but that's not cheap and will kill the resale value for a bigger loss when you sell it. My first post is still my best advice. There is no cheap answer to more horsepower in a Delorean especially if you're not going to do all your own work. Somebody correct me here if I'm overlooking a cheap fix?
Rob

[PJ Grady Inc.]

Not really, no. I'm not entirely familiar with the European market of PRVs, but here in the States the only option is the 3.0 liter from a Dodge Monaco/Eagle Premier. This is more complicated than just engine mounts though. You need to swap the lower crank case, install and tune an engine management system from the ground-up, as well as fabricate a number of brackets to accommodate the necessary sensors, throttle cable re-routing, etc.

I don't want to be a Debbie Downer, but if you want more than another 20-30 horsepower either cheaply or easily, it simply isn't going to happen with a DMC.

Well you are a Debbie downer and you're "Not a Delorean guru" but we're certainly on the same page here.

Rob

P.S. I love your new moniker...very classy! You sure like bustin' on "The guru" don't you?

[DMCVegas]

Somebody correct me here if I'm overlooking a cheap fix?
Rob

Define "cheap".

As was told to me, and I'm sure you can attest, if there was a cheap way to extract power from the PRV, someone would have figured it out by now.

Getting back to a cheap fix, which engine/drivetrain swap is the cheapest?

[FABombjoy]

I spent years fabricating my own single turbo setup with an eye on both overall expense and improving the BAE/Island approaches. The system keeps K-jet but uses a partially programmable ignition solution (MSD with ignition retard based on MAP and/or RPM).

Even if I valued my time at nothing it was still not particularly cheap.

But compared to stock its f***ing awesome :D

[opethmike]

Getting back to a cheap fix, which engine/drivetrain swap is the cheapest?

That wasn't a mountain of words! Who are you, and what have you done with the real Robert?

Cheapest/easiest engine swap is easily the 3.0 liter PRV.

[kenny]

The Alpine gta turbo and a610 have high power prv engines. Not a common car even in Europe though. Martin G in the UK knows a lot about them

[DMCVegas]

That wasn't a mountain of words! Who are you, and what have you done with the real Robert?

http://cdn.meme.am/instances/500x/53982808.jpg


Cheapest/easiest engine swap is easily the 3.0 liter PRV.

There you go. It's a PRV, but it's still an engine swap, and by itself is cheaper than cams for the increased power output. Of course that also limits options even further...

[88KPH]

Thanks for all the info and opinions guys. Guess I'll be keeping the standard engine, unless it ever needs a rebuild.

Got one option, I've after-market exhaust with 'sports' cats, (sounds nice) worth cutting out for straight-through pipes?

[opethmike]

It'll be louder, and you'll smell of gas every time you drive the car. The bump in HP might be 5ish.

[DMCVegas]

Thanks for all the info and opinions guys. Guess I'll be keeping the standard engine, unless it ever needs a rebuild.

Got one option, I've after-market exhaust with 'sports' cats, (sounds nice) worth cutting out for straight-through pipes?

Probably not. Modern catalytic converters are far less restrictive, and have an minimal impact upon performance. They DO however greatly lower your emissions, so they help allot with testing. So honestly, you'd enjoy more benefit by leaving them on.

[Gregadeth]

What is the HP gain when going with just an aftermarket exhaust? Stage 1 / Spec 1

[opethmike]

Maybe 10.

[opethmike]

The real reason you would want an aftermarket exhaust though is the sound. The stage 1 and spec 1 both sound glorious in comparison to the angry lawnmower sound that the stock exhaust makes.

[Gregadeth]

Maybe 10.That's it? I tought it would be more like 20 at least. I'd read that the most restrictive part of the car was the stock exhaust, as far as performance goes.


The real reason you would want an aftermarket exhaust though is the sound. The stage 1 and spec 1 both sound glorious in comparison to the angry lawnmower sound that the stock exhaust makes. To be honest I kinda like that mid-range European tone of the stock PRV lol. The Stage 2s I've heard sound too much like a muscle car.

Btw Mike, I'm pretty sure I had you as a Myspace friend back in the day. Your had the same name, mine was deloreangreg. My gf's favorite band was Opeth.

[sdg3205]

Dyno results would say around 10 hp, 14 lbs of torque and 7 lbs of weight savings

[Shark Pilot]

I have a Stage II Upgrade with Isky cams and a Spec 1 exhaust from DPI. Was WAY too expensive for all of that and I absolutely LOVE MY CAR. Sounds like a 1977 Lotus Esprit and with the increased power its SO much more fun to drive. The expense isn't justified really, but whatever. The OE version of my car was so horribly slow I can't believe even in the 80s when cars weren't all that fast the DMC-12 ever sold at all. I'm over 200hp at the crank and it shows. Just great fun to drive and with the look and sound of the car I get looks ALWAYS. :driving1:

[opethmike]

I have a Stage II Upgrade with Isky cams and a Spec 1 exhaust from DPI. Was WAY too expensive for all of that and I absolutely LOVE MY CAR. Sounds like a 1977 Lotus Esprit and with the increased power its SO much more fun to drive. The expense isn't justified really, but whatever. The OE version of my car was so horribly slow I can't believe even in the 80s when cars weren't all that fast the DMC-12 ever sold at all. I'm over 200hp at the crank and it shows. Just great fun to drive and with the look and sound of the car I get looks ALWAYS. :driving1:

Have you done an engine dyno to actually show 200+ at the crank? You'd have to be around 175 at the wheels to have 200 at the crank. Most anyone has ever wheel dyno'ed with the Stage 2 is 145.

[Shark Pilot]

"Got one option, I've after-market exhaust with 'sports' cats, (sounds nice) worth cutting out for straight-through pipes?"

Do NOT do this. Been there, done that, totally not worth it. The PRV needs a little back pressure anyway and like the other guy said you'll get the smell of gas, well exhaust really, on shutdown every time and NOBODY will want to be behind you on the road. It becomes embarrassing really. The Spec I exhaust has high flow cats. I'd talk to Josh and see what you can work out. His system is expensive, maybe even over priced, but I LOVE THAT SYSTEM on my car.

[Shark Pilot]

Have you done an engine dyno to actually show 200+ at the crank? You'd have to be around 175 at the wheels to have 200 at the crank. Most anyone has ever wheel dyno'ed with the Stage 2 is 145.

I knew someone would ask this. No. It's all "on paper" which I hate, but it's also not a straight "Stage II" upgrade. I have a different higher voltage (40K) ignition system, the Spec I exhaust with high flow cats and Isky Cams timed to 32 degrees. Either way it's a LOT more than my stock engine was.

[Lenny]

I really like mine. I wouldn't have it any other way.
http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=youtube+delorean+wings+headers&view=detail&mid=D07F5D6B2C6E7B9EB0E3D07F5D6B2C6E7B9EB0E3&FORM=VIRE1

[opethmike]

I knew someone would ask this. No. It's all "on paper" which I hate, but it's also not a straight "Stage II" upgrade. I have a different higher voltage (40K) ignition system, the Spec I exhaust with high flow cats and Isky Cams timed to 32 degrees. Either way it's a LOT more than my stock engine was.

Sorry to say, but it's not going to be 200 at the crank. Seeing as the stage 2/spec two hit 145 at the wheels, you'd need to get another 25-35 horsepower out of that ignition system.

[Nicholas R]

I really like mine. I wouldn't have it any other way.
http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=youtube+delorean+wings+headers&view=detail&mid=D07F5D6B2C6E7B9EB0E3D07F5D6B2C6E7B9EB0E3&FORM=VIRE1

I will admit, when I rode in your car at Ed's open house back in 2014, it was definitely peppier than I expected.

If I still had the PRV, I would probably start with an EFI swap using Ed G's hardware with MS. Then I'd probably be on the DPI Twin Turbo home build path. Still, much if this is very DIY and not very off the shelf, so I can understand how not everyone would be into it.

[DMCVegas]

That's it? I tought it would be more like 20 at least. I'd read that the most restrictive part of the car was the stock exhaust, as far as performance goes.

I have a copy of the De Lorean Gold Portfolio, and there is an article in it that talks about a "european spec" DMC-12 with a catalytic convertor delete. The article claimed that there was a 30 hp gain over stock for the NA market, and that seems to be where the misbelief about the exhaust system, and catalytic convertor being so super-restrictive comes from. In truth, I believe later on it was determined that the car had other mods as well that helped bump that number up. Like a distributor with dual-counterweights, and a LAMBDA delete to run richer for more power (at the sacrifice of economy and further emissions). But even then you've got to consider that the even-fire 3.0L only realized a benefit of 20 hp.

Definitely the exhaust isn't perfect with the manifolds & tight turns throughout, and it is a significant area that benefits greatly from being upgraded. But by itself it doesn't give you the most gains. A better exhaust would let the engine flow better, but then you have to build a better flowing engine. All of the upgrades that you could install must occur in tandem to truly realize any benefit.

[jamesrguk]

I have a copy of the De Lorean Gold Portfolio, and there is an article in it that talks about a "european spec" DMC-12 with a catalytic convertor delete. The article claimed that there was a 30 hp gain over stock for the NA market, and that seems to be where the misbelief about the exhaust system, and catalytic convertor being so super-restrictive comes from. In truth, I believe later on it was determined that the car had other mods as well that helped bump that number up. Like a distributor with dual-counterweights, and a LAMBDA delete to run richer for more power (at the sacrifice of economy and further emissions). But even then you've got to consider that the even-fire 3.0L only realized a benefit of 20 hp.

Definitely the exhaust isn't perfect with the manifolds & tight turns throughout, and it is a significant area that benefits greatly from being upgraded. But by itself it doesn't give you the most gains. A better exhaust would let the engine flow better, but then you have to build a better flowing engine. All of the upgrades that you could install must occur in tandem to truly realize any benefit.

The 'euro spec' engine was the B28e 'e' denoting European certified which has higher compression, no lambda or catalyst and slightly more HP.

The b28f 'f' denoting federal compliance is the one that went into 99.9% of Deloreans certainly all of those destined for the USA.

I have the b28e in my car now and it is a much better engine, if only a little more powerful than stock.

J

[88KPH]

I have the b28e in my car now and it is a much better engine, if only a little more powerful than stock.

J

Why do you say that James? And what are the numbers for 'alittle'?

[Dangermouse]

Search the UK forums for "nico" and see his twin turbo PRV.

Also look for cars with a volvo distributed and other mods. There is a dyno thread on Eurotec somewhere where various engine/exhaust mods are tested.

[Nicholas R]

I have the b28e in my car now and it is a much better engine, if only a little more powerful than stock.

J

I too am curious. If it's only a little more powerful than stock, what makes it a much better engine?

[Flicky]

I don't think I've seen any talk on running a small nitrous kit ever. Does the K-Jet/lamda have the ability to keep the mix with a small dry shot? $350 and not much time and that 40hp could be yours. I guess there is the downside that the power isn't there all the time, but if you just need a bump to pull ahead of that smart car next to you then it might work.

http://www.zex.com/zx/safe-shot-nitrous-system-from-zextmhtml/

[Nicholas R]

I don't think I've seen any talk on running a small nitrous kit ever. Does the K-Jet/lamda have the ability to keep the mix with a small dry shot? $350 and not much time and that 40hp could be yours. I guess there is the downside that the power isn't there all the time, but if you just need a bump to pull ahead of that smart car next to you then it might work.

http://www.zex.com/zx/safe-shot-nitrous-system-from-zextmhtml/

As far as "can you," the answer is yes, but not with the kit you've posted. The kit you've posted is a "dry" system meaning it only shoots the nitrous oxide. For a system like this your fuel system has to increase fuel flow significantly when the system activates (usually the injector pulses have to become longer). Since the kjet is mechanical, you would instead need to use a wet system (one that injects both nitrous oxide and fuel at the same time). There are plenty of single injector wet systems that you could use. From the website you posted, this one would be the one to use: http://www.zex.com/zx/4-6-cylinder-efi-wet-nitrous-systemhtml/ Roughly $600. Technically as long as you could find a place to install an injector to introduce it into the intake manifold (even just drilling into the manifold for the injector), you could do it.

Remember though that, $600 may get you the hardware, but there is still the continuous cost of N2O. A 50 shot of N2O uses about .05lbs/second, meaning a 10lb bottle would last you about 160-180 seconds (since you cant completely drain the bottle). It's usually somewhere around $75 to fill a bottle of that size, so you'd have to decide whether that cost is worth it.

Now, all that that being said, I think it's pretty atypical to install N2O with the intent on using it while driving around town. This is especially true considering you're not suppose to EVER shoot N2O unless you're running above 3000RPM at wide open throttle (hence why many kits come with WOT switches). If you use N2O below WOT, you risk explosive backfires in your intake manifold. I cannot imagine the PRV would handle that well. Also, while the N2O does help to help keep cylinder temperatures down during combustion, the pressure in the cylinder does increase significantly. The PRV is known for having its limits with forced induction so it should at least be considered.

[PJ Grady Inc.]

I don't think I've seen any talk on running a small nitrous kit ever. Does the K-Jet/lamda have the ability to keep the mix with a small dry shot? $350 and not much time and that 40hp could be yours. I guess there is the downside that the power isn't there all the time, but if you just need a bump to pull ahead of that smart car next to you then it might work.

http://www.zex.com/zx/safe-shot-nitrous-system-from-zextmhtml/

I drove a customer's Delorean back in the mid eighties that had both a supercharger (A Paxton IIRC) and nitrous and while it was fun I always put nitrous in the same league as steriod's which I like no better in sports than nitrous in cars. Just MHO!
Rob

[Flicky]

Yeah, while there is little more cost effect than nitrous at the drag strip I figure it isn't the best option for a street driver. I was just wondering if the stock system could be told to deliver extra fuel. I like electronics (like the mega-squirt) where you can also retard the ignition before the shot instead of always driving with the ignition backed out all the time.

While we are talking about this...Are there any good options for cooler spark plugs? I recall talk on copper and silvers and I think the coppers can be had a step or two cooler. I can't find them now that I'm trying to look.

[jamesrguk]

I too am curious. If it's only a little more powerful than stock, what makes it a much better engine?

These are the official figures for the two versions of the engine, in short the higher compression offers a little more torque, I notice this when pulling off from a standing start (auto transmission) and fractionally more BHP.

B28e 2.8v6 ('Euro Spec' DeLorean)
Comp ratio 9.5:1
Max HP 155 @ 5500rpm
Max Torque NM/RPS DIN 230/50

B28f 2.8v6 (US DeLorean)
Comp ratio 8.8:1
Max HP 134 @ 5500rpm
Max torque NM/RPS DIN 215/48

It's not enough to to get excited about, but if you are in Europe and your original b28f is toast, as mine was, then it is a no brainer to source the b28e version as it looks identical (save for the lack of lambda stuff) and fits straight into the D.

James

[88KPH]

Makes perfect sense James.
Just out of interest where did you get your engine and cost?

[jamesrguk]

Makes perfect sense James.
Just out of interest where did you get your engine and cost?

I got mine from volvo 760gle via someone in the owners club. It didn't have any injection stuff on but I had sourced that already from another volvo.

I suppose with all the injection stuff I spend about £450 in total.

They are quite rare now, certainly in the UK as it wasn't a particularly popular engine choice, I think most volvo buyers plumped either for the smaller straight 4 petrol engine or went with diesel for fuel economy.

Also I guess a lot of these cars were scrapped during the scrappage scheme a few years back where the public were insentivised to scrap 1000's of perfect good old cars for a £3000 discount on a new one, a volvo of little inherit value would have been prime scrappage scheme fodder.

You still need a dmc engine as you need to swap the sandwich plate with the engine mounts and the sump across to the volvo engine. Not much hassle it's all big nuts and bolts.

J

[88KPH]

Off to ebay....................