Falcon wing doors are just as hard to make as gull wings

[Timebender]

Tesla had to cut their falcon wing door maker.

http://mashable.com/2016/01/20/tesla-falcon-door-lawsuit/#RfVrKGo7YOq5

[DMCVegas]

Actually, "falcon doors" are much more difficult and complicated than Gullwings. They have a hinged area right inside of the beltline to give more clearance because of the height of the vehicle (which leads to a longer door and worse clearance). Leads to much, MUCH more complicated electrics and hydraulics.

Whereas with the DeLorean, the system consists of nothing more than a spring/torsion bar, 2 hinges, manual latches, and a wearable gas-charged strut for the functional portion.

The manufacturing portion is just some support frame & impact beams that get welded together and then on to an external door skin. Other than adjusting an extra set of door linkage components that have to also be balanced, a DeLorean Gullwing is only slightly more difficult than a traditional door to manufacture/assemble/install, and it is LIGHTYEARS ahead of this unnecessarily overly complicated Tesla design.

At first I was kinda bugged by the fact that they called the "Falcon" doors, because Elon Musk hates DeLoreans for some reason, and I thought it was just another snub at us. But now? I'm really glad they called them that. Because for the people like DeLorean and Mercedes that actually KNOW how to properly engineer and execute true Gullwing doors, it's good to let us be disassociated from Tesla.

[DMC5180]

I'm not sure I would use the term "beltline" but rather shoulder. The second hinge is at the outer edge of the roofline above the window.
When GM created the Aerovette, it had beltline hinges bellow the window.
I think Elons reference to Falcon wing is because of the Falcons fold there wings inward in a dive.


Dennis

[DMC5180]

I went back a re-read your statement " inside the beltline" so yeah I guess that would apply.

I don't think the extra hinge is anything special beyond a limited motion free hanging hinge point. Their may be a torsional spring that keeps the door bottom favored inward so the door always drops into the lower guides rather then relying on gravity. I would expect the motorized mechanism to be more of a problem though. I pretty sure you can't operate the rear doors without power. Then again, several newer vehicles have power doors. Mini-van side doors, SUV hatches.

Dennis

[mr_maxime]

I've actually seen these in action. They worked when I saw them and the were also easy to replace. They took one off of one car and it fit easily onto the other car. The double hinge is allow for better clearance. There are sensors in the doors to detect for obstacles and adjust how the hinges open to keep them from hitting.

[Rich]

I've actually seen these in action. They worked when I saw them and the were also easy to replace. They took one off of one car and it fit easily onto the other car. The double hinge is allow for better clearance. There are sensors in the doors to detect for obstacles and adjust how the hinges open to keep them from hitting.

Have seen them as well.

This thread's title needs a revision - so I wrote it on this post. These f-wing doors are very complicated what with the external proximity sensors, dual-hinged articulation and power operation. If nothing else it's a 2-part door to begin with. More seals, more parts, more wire ports. Yes, power liftgates and minivan sliders are normal nowadays. But a Model X door, burdened with it safety/convenience devices, control module and multiple mechanisms, is certainly harder to make than a Delorean door was.

The lawsuit and the production delay attest to this.

I won't argue about how easy the falcon-wing door replacement may be on a Model X vs a DeLorean, though.

And just for the record: I like doors that open and close in a couple of seconds on all my cars. Including the D. Get in and drive!

[mr_maxime]

And just for the record: I like doors that open and close in a couple of seconds on all my cars. Including the D. Get in and drive!

Same here, the falcon wing doors dont have the same wow effect. Granted they have some nice features but watching them slowly rise as you hear electric motors whine just doesnt compare to popping the latch and having the door spring up with the woosh of the struts.

[Dangermouse]

So, what happens in a crash that disables power to those fancy doors?:

Tesla owner pulled from flames when falcon doors fail to open (http://jalopnik.com/tesla-model-x-owner-pulled-from-car-after-falcon-doors-1794592884?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+jalopnik%2Ffull+%28Jalopnik%2 9)

apparently there is a hidden "manual pull" that I had not read about. Sounds like our trunk back up bicycle cable arrangement.

[DMCVegas]

A poor design for roof-mounted vehicle doors?

https://cdn.meme.am/cache/instances/folder246/54428246.jpg

[DMC5180]

I wonder how heavy the door is once the latch is manually released. I don't recall seeing any gas struts to assist it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[DMCVegas]

I've no idea. But the next generation of Gullwing Door safety by Mercedes includes explosive charges. Not that rollovers themselves are that common with Gullwings as it is, mind you. But with the SLS, they installed charges on the door hinges to disconnect the door entirely. Combined with what appears to be breakaway wiring harnesses, all one needs to do is pull on the door handle and push out.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_KtDjN75xw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_KtDjN75xw

I've no idea what the "Falcon Doors" weigh, but I'm pretty sure that they're heavy. We use a single torsion bar per door, and Tesla is having to use 2 torsion springs per side. But worse is the fact that they're mechanically coupled to those electric motors. I don't exactly know if there is a gearbox in between, but it sounds like it. Both audibly as well as from Tesla's emergency instructions. Check this out: The Falcon Doors that locked shut and refused to open wasn't even a rollover accident. Power simply got cut to the electric motors. So with a DMC-12 or an SLS you could just pull on the door handles and exit the vehicle since they are not powered. But with Tesla, you have to pull on an emergency release cable. Guess where it's hidden: At the bottom of the door, behind the speaker grilles! (http://assets.teslastatic.com/2016_Model_X_Emergency_Response_Guide.pdf) Bonus: It can only be opened from INSIDE the vehicle!

So if you're in an accident where you're now disoriented or unconscious, samaritans outside cannot help you. They need tools, or have to wait for rescuers. Even then, that's assuming you know about that release cable, and that the speaker grille is easy to pull off. What happens when you're a passenger, or a second owner that has no idea about that cable? Well as we saw here, you could nearly burn to death.

[Dangermouse]

Will the in dash monitor now be required to play an FAA style safety video before allowing the car to be placed into Drive:

“for those of you in the rear exit row, in the event of power loss, you will be required to manually open the doors. An emergency cable is located here, and here, hidden behind the speaker. If you are unable, or unwilling, to perform these duties, our cabin crew will relocate you to the front seat. Now would be a good time to review the emergency safety procedures detailed on the laminated copy of page 324 of the owner’s manual, which has been placed in the pocket of the seat in front of you”

[Mario]

Bonus: It can only be opened from INSIDE the vehicle!

I just want to point out that it would be a very dumb idea to have a cable that can open the door from the outside. :P Makes the locks a bit useless!

[DMCVegas]

I just want to point out that it would be a very dumb idea to have a cable that can open the door from the outside. :P Makes the locks a bit useless!

And you would be correct. Sometimes what is in our mind's eye doesn't quite translate to what we're saying.

The vehicle that this problem with "Falcon Doors" reminds myself of personally, is the Corvette.

Corvettes don't have door locks. A normal car has the striker pin on the car body with a latch on the door, where it is physically connected to the inner and outer door handles by a linkage. Locking the doors actuates a secondary linkage which causes the latches to bind up so that you cannot open the door. Corvettes do not do this. The arrangement is completely backwards with the latch instead being built into the door frame, and is operated by an actuator. So instead of pulling a handle, you press a button to get out. And when you lock your car, the only thing that the vehicle does is disable the buttons.

However, Corvettes do have emergency release cables. Each door has a large emergency handle on the floorboard (where our parking brakes are). There is also another emergency cable for the driver's door located in the trunk. The trunk also has a traditional key lock too. So if you have a car with a dead battery, you can pop the trunk, and pull that cable to get into the car. Now if you are inside of your car and get trapped because of a dead battery, you can still reach down and grab that emergency handle next to your seat. If you were trying to rescue someone from a Corvette who was unconscious after an accident, you could also open the doors by smashing either the window or trunk glass to get to either of those emergency release cables.

Now it's a good thing that these cables are there, because people do occasionally get trapped inside of Corvettes. Hell, people have even died because of this setup. (https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2015/06/11/texas-man-dog-die-trapped-corvette/71053474/) Even I have been trapped inside of one at a GM Test Drive event when some wise-ass rep thought it would be funny to demonstrate the doors to someone else. But hey, I'm not a Corvette owner, so I wouldn't have known about these emergency latches. As such, I don't look down on other people to whom this has happened. But I am pretty sure that those emergency release cables have saved quite a few lives.

But mating doors to a mechanical apparatus that can prevent an occupant from exiting is a very, VERY bad idea. Even Bricklin knew this, which is why the SV-1 has emergency release pins to free the doors from the hydraulic/pneumatic rams. Sure, given enough time someone can find the emergency release cable when it is rather conspicuous, just like the Corvette. But hiding that cable inside of the door itself where you have to start pulling off speaker grills is unacceptably stupid.

You may have to break the glass, but on the Corvette or SV-1, there are still emergency door releases that you, as a rescuer, can get to while standing outside of the vehicle. There is no way to do this with Tesla's doors. What's the point? You get to survive the initial crash to inhumanely burn to death? It completely defeats the other safety features.

[Chris4099]

Maybe I'm missing something, but what's the big deal here? The Model X has regular doors up front, so it's not like the DeLorean or SLS where the vertical doors are your only method of getting out. So in the event of a total electrical failure, you can still get out without knowing about the mechanical release. That's more then the Corvette can say.

As for accidents, doors jam all the time, regardless of their type. I myself had to exit my car from the passenger side after being t-boned. A lot of videos you see where there's a fire after an accident shows people being pulled out a smashed window because their doors are jammed. Falcon wing would be no different and at least Tesla has a lower rate of car fires then their ICE equivalents.

[Lwanmtr]

Well, this is assuming the car has been in an accident and the passengers in the back may not be able to crawl into the front to get out...I havent seen a Model-X in person, so I couldnt even tell you how difficult that would be...even in a Ford Focus it would be a pain to crawl between the front seats

[DMCVegas]

Well, this is assuming the car has been in an accident and the passengers in the back may not be able to crawl into the front to get out...I havent seen a Model-X in person, so I couldnt even tell you how difficult that would be...even in a Ford Focus it would be a pain to crawl between the front seats

It is apparently very difficult. Not only are there two, but three rows of seats for passengers.

https://thumbs.mic.com/NWM1NjExZjAxZSMvU05MajdqNkpOYXE1TncxNXEwM0htLXMwYm F3PS8xN3gyMTI6NTE2N3gzMjQ0LzkwMHg1MzAvZmlsdGVyczpx dWFsaXR5KDcwKS9odHRwOi8vczMuYW1hem9uYXdzLmNvbS9wb2 xpY3ltaWMtaW1hZ2VzL29ncnQya2d4bHU1bGJ6Z20wczZpenBu YnNqNGVyYWJ4ZGNwY2lrZGx3NmFtbmZrZTNzeXNwbXJkd2E4em lqaXAuanBn.jpg

So aside from being trapped in the back with no way to get to the emergency release, you now have an extra row of seats to crawl over. So, good luck with that.



Maybe I'm missing something, but what's the big deal here? The Model X has regular doors up front, so it's not like the DeLorean or SLS where the vertical doors are your only method of getting out. So in the event of a total electrical failure, you can still get out without knowing about the mechanical release. That's more then the Corvette can say.

As for accidents, doors jam all the time, regardless of their type. I myself had to exit my car from the passenger side after being t-boned. A lot of videos you see where there's a fire after an accident shows people being pulled out a smashed window because their doors are jammed. Falcon wing would be no different and at least Tesla has a lower rate of car fires then their ICE equivalents.

The big deal is that these are electro-mechanically controlled doors with no automatic emergency provisions to release control of the doors.

One big thing you must consider are what the most likely of accidents to occur are, and then drill down a steadily declining list of probabilities for said accidents. Then starting at the top with the most likely, you have to then consider the failure rates of the door systems as to how they might be affect passenger egress. The DMC-12 & SLS both being solely mechanical and without the need for electrical power. And again, even the SV-1 which does require electricity, has a highly visible emergency pull to release the doors. This is in VERY start contrast to Tesla who hid the emergency releases within a door panel itself.

No, not every vehicle collision is going to result in a fiery explosion. To claim such a thing would be silly. But you must understand that climbing over seats is not nearly as easy as it sounds for people. Especially ones that at best are only going into panic after an accident, and at worse are punch drunk if not outright unconscious. You can be strapped in, but the amount of other things that fly around in an accident can certainly harm you too. Breaking windows to pull people out isn't any cakewalk either when you don't have the correct tools. But having either of these as a solution for emergency egress instead of simply being able to open the door you came in through is completely unacceptable. Tesla has overcomplicated this matter, and it endangers people's lives.

[Lwanmtr]

Jinkies! I forgot about the 2 rows of seats in the back...I feel sorry for the folks in the last row.

[Chris4099]

OK, I'm not seeing the bid deal here on the 3rd row either. Most vehicles with 3rd row seating don't have dedicated doors for those seats. Does that mean all cars with 3rd row seating are now death traps to those passengers? What about 2 door cars with back seats?

As for Tesla's situation, I say again, most accidents will result in jammed doors, regardless of their type. All you need is less then an inch of compression in the body and that door isn't going to open. It seems pretty obvious to me that the release cable in the Tesla is for when there's an electrical malfunction and the passengers need to get out (non-emergency situation). In most serious accidents, you are going to be crawling in some form (as those did in the original reported accident).

People get trapped in cars all the time and die as a result. It's very unfortunately. But I don't see anything Tesla has done to make those situations worse. Considering they are less likely to have car fires in the first place and have very high safety rates, you should be much more safe in a Model X then a traditional SUV or mini-van. The only thing I would hope Tesla will change (they may already do for all I know) is make sure when delivering Model Xs, they show the owners the mechanical releases (including the rear hatch, another escape point I forgot to bring up earlier).

[DMCVegas]

I genuinely have no idea how it could be made clearer. And I honestly don't know if it is a lack of clarity in the explanation, or simply a prejudice thing with wanting to defend the Tesla no matter what.

When you have traditional door latch systems, save for the most cataclysmic of accidents, the doors can still have more force applied to them to open if there is a severe enough shifting of the cab or monocoque body. Even if you have such a severe collision that just destroys the structure and mangles the doors to the point where they are inoperable, egress is still possible via the opposite side of the vehicle. With a 2-door vehicle, passengers in the rear seats have accessible levers of some sort that they can activate to get the front seat to slide/tip forward so that they can reach the door handles and get out. The door handles. Not a hidden pull cable down behind the door speaker, but the handles up above.

Now yes, if you have the kind of accident where the car is just destroyed and you need to be cut out of the vehicle, the latching system on your vehicle isn't going to matter much. Absolutely. But that's the thing of it: The accident in question here wasn't that kind. Hell, the overwhelming majority of crashes don't even result in such a problem with doors that are pinched shut. But as we have seen with this lesser accident, those Falcon Doors still failed, and became a severe, possibly fatal liability to the passengers inside.

It's just a bad design all the way around. Perhaps if Tesla had installed a physical linkage from the handles to the latches to "pop" the door open and closed like GM did with their trunk latches, and coupled that with an automatic, physical disconnection of the door motors triggered by the SRS system, they wouldn't be having this problem in the first place.

[Lwanmtr]

Exactly, when you get into a conventional car in the front or back, its pretty intuitive to know where the handle is because its right in the open....someone gettiing into a Tesla for the first time probably isnt going to be aware of the hidden cable...it is a safety hazardm unless the owner takes time to explain what to do in case of a major crash. No car I've ever been in had hidden latches and even from the back seat of a 2 door car, the handle was accesible.

[Chris4099]

I genuinely have no idea how it could be made clearer. And I honestly don't know if it is a lack of clarity in the explanation, or simply a prejudice thing with wanting to defend the Tesla no matter what.

Just the opposite. I'm trying to say Tesla is no different and shouldn't be singled out like they are here. Like it or not, many modern cars will trap you in the event of an electrical failure. Not necessarily through electronic latches, but through electronic locks. Most are designed to auto unlock in the event of a crash (much like our DeLoreans do). However, lightning or a sudden fire that knocks the computer out will result in being locked in the car. You can even have some makes of cars trap occupants inside via the key fob which disables the internal latches.

Thinking more about it, I'm glad Tesla doesn't make the manual override so obvious. In the event of a crash where the door could be jammed, you don't want the occupants messing around with trying to force the door open because they think a manual release is more like an emergency release. Just have them do what's instinctive when a door won't open: try another door. That's what the occupants in the OP article did and were fine. They could also use the manual release for the rear hatch to get out that way (assuming they knew about that method). Then there's the standby of also just smashing a window out. You may not agree with me on that and that's fine as it's just a personal opinion. But if there's an automotive safety expert that can weigh in here I'm willing to adjust my thoughts accordingly.

Ultimately if you are super paranoid about being trapped in a car, then put one of these on your key chain:
https://www.amazon.com/resqme-Original-Keychain-Escape-Tool/dp/B000IDYKNC

I'm now curious as to what you think about child door locks were the door just can't be opened from the inside at any time? Been in use for decades and hasn't been a major issue as far as I heard.

[DMCVegas]

Just the opposite. I'm trying to say Tesla is no different and shouldn't be singled out like they are here. Like it or not, many modern cars will trap you in the event of an electrical failure. Not necessarily through electronic latches, but through electronic locks. Most are designed to auto unlock in the event of a crash (much like our DeLoreans do). However, lightning or a sudden fire that knocks the computer out will result in being locked in the car. You can even have some makes of cars trap occupants inside via the key fob which disables the internal latches.

Exactly which cars are these you reference that will trap you inside because of door locks?

Now please understand that I'm not trying to be a troll here, but I'm not 100% certain that you may be aware of how door locks work. Specifically the idea of power door locks that GM introduced in their patents as a "coincidental locking system" that can actuate the locking rods, but still hand over primary control to the mechanical system for a redundant purpose. Which is what cars use to this day. Which again, if you know of a vehicle that doesn't have this redundant design, please let me know. Because I sure as hell wouldn't want to buy one!

In a nut shell, all of the locking capabilities lie within the door latch itself. There are different door latch & linkage designs. We have our traditional one where unless we hold the exterior door handle open, closing the door will automatically unlock the latch to prevent you from accidentally locking yourself out. Most importantly, however, we have the concurrent feature of when the internal door handle linkage is activated to open the latch, it will simultaneously pull the internal lock within the latch open. Pulling on the external linkage does not do this. Thus we are able to lock a door from external unauthorized entry, while still allowing the occupant(s) to exit the vehicle at any time, regardless of the electrical power supply situation.

The implementation looks different depending upon vehicles. Some vehicles may still use the traditional design of an external lock cylinder connected to the internal mechanical lock linkage on all doors. Most, however, will only have a single lock cylinder on the driver's door to save on costs. Some vehicles may actually eschew internal lock linkages all together, and rely solely upon an actuator to lock the doors. However, they still have the redundant unlocking feature for the interior door handles to let people out. So even if the actuators failed to unlock the doors (be it from a lack of power, or even a failed actuator), the passengers can still get out of the vehicle in the case of an emergency. But the main reason for unlocking the doors in the case of an accident is to enable responders to quickly open the doors to render first aid, or provide an extraction if needed.

Now the DMC-12 is different because it uses TWO locking latches. It has an inherent issue with door latches potentially jamming to either prevent latching, and thus opening in an accident, or jamming which prevents the door from opening at all. Most likely the solution for this by DeLorean Motor Company were not only the guide blocks, but the combination of the Inertia Switch as well as the "LOCK DOORS" warning light. Forcing the driver to lock the doors in order to get the annoying light to turn off. And if the driver cannot lock the door because it isn't latched/closed all the way, they would be forced to open/close the door again until they could do so. This would prevent the problem of an opening door in an accident. On the flip side, study the schematic and you can clearly see that the Inertia Switch is hardwired into the Brown/Pink unlock wires from the doors. This causes not only the fuel pump to turn off in the event of a collision, but it also immediately unlocks the doors. This way if there is any deformity in the doors resulting in a pre-load condition on the locking rods, the laches are both quickly unlocked and the doors can still be opened internally or externally by first responders.

But the key thing to remember here is that even our doors are still manual. There are no electrical items like motors that prevent the doors from functioning. Just like Mercedes. The only other car that has ever had this issue was the Bricklin SV-1. Which is because instead of counterbalancing the doors with a torsion bar, Bricklin installed hydraulic rams (which can be retrofitted to aftermarket pneumatics). In that case as well, you have the same problem that the Tesla has with a system potentially trapping an occupant inside if it fails. BUT, Bricklin knew this and placed emergency releases above the occupant's heads. A quick pull of the pin in a conspicuous location, and the door is disconnected and can be opened up.



Thinking more about it, I'm glad Tesla doesn't make the manual override so obvious. In the event of a crash where the door could be jammed, you don't want the occupants messing around with trying to force the door open because they think a manual release is more like an emergency release. Just have them do what's instinctive when a door won't open: try another door. That's what the occupants in the OP article did and were fine. They could also use the manual release for the rear hatch to get out that way (assuming they knew about that method). Then there's the standby of also just smashing a window out. You may not agree with me on that and that's fine as it's just a personal opinion. But if there's an automotive safety expert that can weigh in here I'm willing to adjust my thoughts accordingly.

I gotta be honest, I don't follow that line of reasoning. Cars aren't meant to have "emergency releases". They just have the primary releases that are always available. We may only use the coincidental locking systems, but those primary linkages are purely mechanical and don't need electricity to operate. Which is the main point of all this; Tesla's design is a poor one that provides no easy way out.

Climbing over seats? Yeah, that isn't going to happen. I don't know if you've ever been hit hard enough to be punch drunk. It's not fun. Your vision is shaky, you can't think straight, and your hand-eye coordination (let alone motor control) is barely rudimentary enough to function. And that is assuming that the rest of you if physically fine. And when you're in an accident, even if you're wearing a seatbelt, that doesn't always protect you from other objects (including people) from hitting you and causing serious injury. Take a look at these women and tell me if you really think either one of them is ready to just start jumping over seats.


https://youtu.be/1qU0DU-v2_I?t=5m36s
https://youtu.be/1qU0DU-v2_I?t=5m36s


Ultimately if you are super paranoid about being trapped in a car, then put one of these on your key chain:
https://www.amazon.com/resqme-Original-Keychain-Escape-Tool/dp/B000IDYKNC

I'm not paranoid in the least. But I'm telling you right now that smashing tempered automotive glass isn't at all like breaking a bottle or a house window. Nor should I have carry tools with me in order to fight my way out of a vehicle at any given time when the car manufacturer could have just installed an damn door handle in the first place.



I'm now curious as to what you think about child door locks were the door just can't be opened from the inside at any time? Been in use for decades and hasn't been a major issue as far as I heard.

Child safety latches are a just a useless gimmick to give car buyers a false sense of security. First off, if a child is young enough that they don't know the danger of opening a car door while in motion, they belong in a car seat of some kind. The kind that also doesn't allow them to jump out of the car because it requires an adult to release them from the seat. Which then defeats the purpose of having the safety locks since they cannot get to the door handles in the first place.

Second, we know it's bad to trap children in cars. This child here, Michael Esposito (http://www.kidsandcars.org/child_story/michael-esposito/) is the reason that we have conspicuous, glow-in-the-dark emergency release latches inside of car trunks. Because we know that it's bad to leave children locked inside of hot cars with no way to get out. Which renders the entire purpose of child safety locks utterly pointless. But even then, guess what? The doors can still be opened from the outside, which the Falcon doors still cannot do.