Carb Conversion "Kits" ETA March-April 2016

[Jimmyd]

Actually I invoked your name because you flew off the handle when I hauled some concrete (notice the quoted post). I've hauled sand and another pallet of concrete since, and the world still didn't come to an end.

Half a dozen people have been waiting patiently for these conversions to get finished. I suspect they appreciate status updates. It's no different than Tom explaining that his LED door lights are delayed because he caught the flu.

This afternoon I assembled a carb for James:

41893
Thanks for the update BIll
This is the last of the Peugeot conversions, then I will start on the dual planes. Need to paint his throttle cable bracket and make a return spring (they're custom cut to size), then it will be ready to test drive. I've been driving Greg's conversion for several weeks now.

As soon as Suzy gets the air filter labels I can box up Darren's and Greg's conversions. James' will probably be ready by then too.
Thanks for the update Bill on the carb conversion.
Bill Robertson
#5939

THanks for the update-looks good

[Rich_NYS]

PM sent.

[dmruschell]

Bill,

I was just curious to see if you had final pricing for the systems. I know that we had talked a bit about me not needing everything in the full package (like a fuel pump, for example), so we can discuss that in PMs if you'd like. Thanks.

[Pilot]

Nice, my conversion looks good :)

[content22207_2]

It looks better with paint on the throttle cable bracket:

41906

(I soaked it overnight in low grade acid -- aka "vinegar" -- to knock the rust off).

Bill Robertson
#5939

[content22207_2]

James' conversion ready to be test driven (I've tuned the carb in the driveway but haven't road tested it yet):

41939

Bill Robertson
#5939

[content22207_2]

Actually it's a good thing these haven't shipped yet: when I pulled Greg's conversion off I decided to make a change in the vacuum barbs. There is a threaded mounting point that I drilled through and tapped. This now put the barbs in pretty much the same place as my fabricated manifolds.

Old locations:

41940

New locations:

41941

I am still waiting on air filter labels from Suzy (she's waiting for them to get sent up from Houston).

Bill Robertson
#5939

[Mark D]

This apron used 35 bags of concrete, or .77 cubic yards. If I called Ready Mix and asked them to bring me less than a yard of concrete they would hang up on me.

41877

There's a place and purpose for concrete trucks, and there's a place and purpose for a pallet of concrete in the back of your pickup truck.

Bill Robertson
#5939

In my front yard I've got an odd shaped flowerbed that extends into my driveway. The previous owners half filled the bed with paver blocks which have now settled below driveway level and is an unsightly trip hazard. I'm looking to removing the blocks, creating a form across the flowerbed that is even with the end of my house and fill the area with concrete.

The approximate dimensions are 3' x 7' and I'm thinking of pouring a 6" deep slab. Will I need one or more polyethylene isolation/expansion joints, or can I pour one continuous slab and score a few lines to direct any cracking that may occur?

Using an online calculator I've determined I'll need around .26 yards of concrete, so I'll be going the DIY route with twelve 80lb bags of concrete and renting a small electric mixer. Do you have any other suggestions for a first timer attempting concrete work?

http://dmctalk.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=41942&d=1463000180

[Drive Stainless]

In my front yard I've got an odd shaped flowerbed that extends into my driveway. The previous owners half filled the bed with paver blocks which have now settled below driveway level and is an unsightly trip hazard. I'm looking to removing the blocks, creating a form across the flowerbed that is even with the end of my house and fill the area with concrete.

The approximate dimensions are 3' x 7' and I'm thinking of pouring a 6" deep slab. Will I need one or more polyethylene isolation/expansion joints, or can I pour one continuous slab and score a few lines to direct any cracking that may occur?

Using an online calculator I've determined I'll need around .26 yards of concrete, so I'll be going the DIY route with twelve 80lb bags of concrete and renting a small electric mixer. Do you have any other suggestions for a first timer attempting concrete work?

http://dmctalk.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=41942&d=1463000180

Probably would want to drill and dowel in some rebar to the surrounding slab(s) to help keep the new slab from sinking.

[Jimmyd]

Actually it's a good thing these haven't shipped yet: when I pulled Greg's conversion off I decided to make a change in the vacuum barbs. There is a threaded mounting point that I drilled through and tapped. This now put the barbs in pretty much the same place as my fabricated manifolds.

Old locations:

41940

New locations:

41941

I am still waiting on air filter labels from Suzy (she's waiting for them to get sent up from Houston).

Bill Robertson
#5939

Looks good Bill -Thanks

[MountainGoat]

James' conversion ready to be test driven (I've tuned the carb in the driveway but haven't road tested it yet):

41939

Bill Robertson
#5939

Awesome!

[content22207_2]

Do you have any other suggestions for a first timer attempting concrete work?

Buy a bag of fiber reinforcement and you won't have to worry about cracking. Application is 1 lbs of fiber per yard. My mixer holds two 80 lbs bags, so I just divide the fiber into 21 equal size piles and throw a pile in with each mixer load (a yard is 45 bags, a pallet is 42 bags -- 21 mixer loads).

Pouring concrete is like painting: 90% prep and 10% application. I have an 8x8 inch tamper that I use to pound the ground solid. Use a level to position your form. Half a bubble is a common slope for drainage.

Spend a little money on some basic concrete tools. They won't go bad, and you'll be amazed how many times you use them, not only at home but also at church, friends' houses, etc. My kit includes: flat blade shovel, garden trowel, concrete trowel, concrete float (20" aluminum), and a beanie weenie concrete trowel made from a cut off edging tool. I have an edging tool too, but I don't like to use it.

My mixer sits low to the ground, so I put it in the back of a pickup truck and pour it into a wheel barrow, which I then shovel into the form. Gives me much more control.

Don't mix the concrete too watery -- that weakens it and can even cause it to crack while drying.

The nice thing about a mixer is it will mix your next batch while you're pouring and floating previous batches. Speeds things up tremendously. And it saves your back. Also does a great job of distributing the fibers. I don't even use fiber when mixing in a wheel barrow because it's too hard to distribute them evenly (the only time you'll mix in a wheel barrow is for a beanie weenie pour or spot repair, which don't need reinforcement anyway).

There never are enough outdoor storage areas. It's the same problem as indoor closet space. Once you get used to pouring concrete can pour storage pads all around the yard. Sidewalks too. As soon as I trim the grass along my back sidewalk I'll take a picture (looks pretty wild & woolly at the moment). The best thing about concrete is you don't have to rake and mow it. My dream house will have a paved front yard with astroturf. While the neighbors are mowing their yards I will vacuum mine.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[content22207_2]

Probably would want to drill and dowel in some rebar to the surrounding slab(s) to help keep the new slab from sinking.

Tamp the form first and you'll be fine.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[DMCVegas]

Actually I invoked your name because you flew off the handle when I hauled some concrete (notice the quoted post). I've hauled sand and another pallet of concrete since, and the world still didn't come to an end.

Nope. Whenever things get too quiet and you start to get worried that no one is paying attention to you, you either fish for pity complements or you just outright start a fight. And you do love to fight, that's for sure. Just like in the past when you used to shit-talk the DeLorean car itself just to try and keep arguments going because everyone was ignoring you. It was the only way you could get that attention you so desperately crave, and precisely why you just HAD to get my attention again, Bill.

But let's get back to that concrete again, shall we?

You didn't just haul concrete, you exceeded the limitations of your truck. What you did at first was dangerous, but your continuing to do it is outright stupid on top of that. Especially since you're keeping up this attitude of "...the world still didn't come to an end." as a means to justify your actions. Which by the way you've turned into some twisted form of defiance as though risking your life and the lives of others is some sort of statement to be proud of.

Safety precautions should ALWAYS be utilized whenever possible. Always.

Arguing that just because something bad didn't happen this time is not a valid reason to not take safety precautions in the future, nor is it ever any sort of "proof" that they are not necessary and/or effective. You can drive without wearing a seat belt and not get into an accident, sure. But all it takes is that one time for something to go wrong, and that's when you're going to get hurt or even killed. Same thing with what is happening here with you overloading your truck's capacity and also not centering your load: You must always be diligent with safety. Just because the safety precautions were not used doesn't mean that they were not needed.

What really worries me is your endorsement of this risky behavior so that you can win an argument at the cost of encouraging others to engage in such risky practices as well. Simply put: You want to do dumb shit and pay the consequences, fine. But stop lying to other people and telling them that there is nothing wrong with the stupid practices you engage in.

[Mark D]

Buy a bag of fiber reinforcement and you won't have to worry about cracking. Application is 1 lbs of fiber per yard. My mixer holds two 80 lbs bags, so I just divide the fiber into 21 equal size piles and throw a pile in with each mixer load (a yard is 45 bags, a pallet is 42 bags -- 21 mixer loads).

Pouring concrete is like painting: 90% prep and 10% application. I have an 8x8 inch tamper that I use to pound the ground solid. Use a level to position your form. Half a bubble is a common slope for drainage.

Spend a little money on some basic concrete tools. They won't go bad, and you'll be amazed how many times you use them, not only at home but also at church, friends' houses, etc. My kit includes: flat blade shovel, garden trowel, concrete trowel, concrete float (20" aluminum), and a beanie weenie concrete trowel made from a cut off edging tool. I have an edging tool too, but I don't like to use it.

My mixer sits low to the ground, so I put it in the back of a pickup truck and pour it into a wheel barrow, which I then shovel into the form. Gives me much more control.

Don't mix the concrete too watery -- that weakens it and can even cause it to crack while drying.

The nice thing about a mixer is it will mix your next batch while you're pouring and floating previous batches. Speeds things up tremendously. And it saves your back. Also does a great job of distributing the fibers. I don't even use fiber when mixing in a wheel barrow because it's too hard to distribute them evenly (the only time you'll mix in a wheel barrow is for a beanie weenie pour or spot repair, which don't need reinforcement anyway).

There never are enough outdoor storage areas. It's the same problem as indoor closet space. Once you get used to pouring concrete can pour storage pads all around the yard. Sidewalks too. As soon as I trim the grass along my back sidewalk I'll take a picture (looks pretty wild & woolly at the moment). The best thing about concrete is you don't have to rake and mow it. My dream house will have a paved front yard with astroturf. While the neighbors are mowing their yards I will vacuum mine.

Bill Robertson
#5939

I think I found the fiber reinforcement you were referring to on Amazon, I'll check ebay as well since it sounds like it'll be cheaper.
http://www.amazon.com/32-504-4-Inch-Nylon-Concrete-Fibers/dp/B000COCDCM

Thanks for the advice on concrete pouring, I'll have to make a run and pick up a few tools. I had to google what a "beanie weenie" was, and lets just say some other results came up that weren't necessarily concrete related :wink:

I've got a concrete drill bit and my father in law has some re-bar laying around so If it's not too much work I'll probably add a few sections to the surrounding slabs so it holds everything together. The surrounding concrete looks like it's sunk slightly so I'm not sure how stable the ground is below where I'm intending to pour. I get a lot of rain runoff through that area from the rest of the driveway and the soil has a lot of organic material and clay in it. To be able to tamp everything down nice and firm I'd probably have to excavate out a few more inches of all the top stuff lay some compacting sand.

[content22207_2]

Beanie weenie trowel (edging tool with the edge cut off):

41950

Beanie weenie pours. There's no way to float things like this with a full size trowel or float:

41951 41952

Bill Robertson
#5939

[content22207_2]

Yesterday's pour (18 bags -- I was finished well before lunch):

41953

This pad and the one adjacent to it (3 footer) were my first experience with rebar. City has a telephone pole (totally out of their easement, thank you very much...) and I don't want them to crack my pad with a lineman's truck. Also was a little concerned about stress from the guy wires. Four foot pad in the front doesn't have rebar, and the tree people cracked it when they cut down a tree back there (to be honest they could have cracked it dropping a limb rather than with their truck). 4 footer also doesn't have fiber (poured it almost 20 years ago, long before I started using fiber).

I welded my rebar together. Made it really simple to install: just positioned it in the form, held it 1.5 inches off the bottom with 2x4 blocks, then pulled the blocks out as concrete was poured in.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[content22207_2]

To be able to tamp everything down nice and firm I'd probably have to excavate out a few more inches of all the top stuff lay some compacting sand.

I you're going to tamp wet gummy dirt with a hand tamping rod you definitely want to throw a thin layer of sand on top. It's just like flouring a rolling pin. Otherwise the dirt will stick to the tamping rod and you will have to stop every 5 seconds to scrape it off.

My soil is "sandy loam", which means clay with just enough sand in it to make people who don't know any better think I am digging at the beach. Absolute nightmare to tamp without a layer of sand on top. You don't need much -- just a bag or two.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[content22207_2]

I think I found the fiber reinforcement you were referring to on Amazon, I'll check ebay as well since it sounds like it'll be cheaper.
http://www.amazon.com/32-504-4-Inch-Nylon-Concrete-Fibers/dp/B000COCDCM

I buy mine from this guy: http://www.ebay.com/itm/141816895974?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

Application is 1 lbs fiber to 1 cubic yard concrete. A pallet of concrete is basically 1 cubic yard (42 bags versus 45 bags). Divide a pound of fibers into 21 equal size piles. Add one pile of fiber to each two bag mix of concrete. Save excess piles of fiber in individual sandwich bags for future pours.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[content22207_2]

Talked to Suzy at DMCMW today. Air filter labels are still on order. She's supposed to get a pallet from Houston tomorrow -- hopefully the labels will be on it.

Road tested James' conversion tonight. Drove just fine. Rev'ed it to 6,000 RPM on the bypass no problem.

I've got a spreadsheet that I use to calculate costs -- I'll start filling it in tonight.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[Jimmyd]

Talked to Suzy at DMCMW today. Air filter labels are still on order. She's supposed to get a pallet from Houston tomorrow -- hopefully the labels will be on it.

Road tested James' conversion tonight. Drove just fine. Rev'ed it to 6,000 RPM on the bypass no problem.

I've got a spreadsheet that I use to calculate costs -- I'll start filling it in tonight.

Bill Robertson
#5939

Thanks for the update Bill sounds good

[content22207_2]

I am going to price Peugeot manifolds the same as my fabricated manifolds.

Costs me $500 to make a manifold. Please note that doesn't include a single penny for my own labor (paging those few bad apples who bitch and complain that "Bill is such a bad businessman"...):

41958

Speaking of which: I am not a DeLorean vendor. I am not a business of any sort. I am basically identical to an eBay or Craigslist seller -- except those sellers typically sell at a profit. By the time these conversions are ready to ship every penny will be accounted for. Not a bad deal at all for the end users.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[MountainGoat]

I am going to price Peugeot manifolds the same as my fabricated manifolds.

Costs me $500 to make a manifold. Please note that doesn't include a single penny for my own labor (paging those few bad apples who bitch and complain that "Bill is such a bad businessman"...):

41958

Speaking of which: I am not a DeLorean vendor. I am not a business of any sort. I am basically identical to an eBay or Craigslist seller -- except those sellers typically sell at a profit. By the time these conversions are ready to ship every penny will be accounted for. Not a bad deal at all for the end users.

Bill Robertson
#5939

Very awesome :) I'm really looking forward to getting mine and I appreciate your amazing work here...!

[content22207_2]

You know who the bad apples are. Their words speak for themselves.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[Jimmyd]

You know who the bad apples are. Their words speak for themselves.

Bill Robertson
#5939

Thanks Bill your an asset to the delorean community

[content22207_2]

Don't know about that, but I can make a carb conversion that works.

I use a standardized design hoping owners can provide technical support for each other. And hopefully that support is things like "where did you mount your fuel filter" and "are you using an electric or a mechanical pump" -- if owners are asking each other "exactly how does a carburetor work in the first place", that is bad.

Every conversion gets test driven on my own car. That allows me to ensure carbs are properly rebuilt, and more importantly to ensure that fabricated manifolds are vacuum tight. Has the side benefit that the carb shows up already tuned and ready to drive (there's really nothing to tuning a 2100 -- takes me less than five minutes: http://www.dmctoday.com/showthread.php?161-Autolite-Motorcraft-2100-2150-Theory-of-Operation&p=15401&viewfull=1#post15401). YouTube also is full of people doing it.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[Pilot]

Awesome. Can't wait.

[content22207_2]

Like I said, pouring concrete is 90% prep:

42001

Notice how much moisture the sand has absorbed. If I tried to tamp that without a layer of sand on top it would stick to the tamping rod and I'd end up shoveling it off every 5 seconds.

On topic: I've received shipping notice for the air filter labels. It is entirely possible the first few conversions will be ready to ship within a week or so.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[Jimmyd]

Like I said, pouring concrete is 90% prep:

42001

Notice how much moisture the sand has absorbed. If I tried to tamp that without a layer of sand on top it would stick to the tamping rod and I'd end up shoveling it off every 5 seconds.

On topic: I've received shipping notice for the air filter labels. It is entirely possible the first few conversions will be ready to ship within a week or so.

Bill Robertson
#5939

Thanks for the update Bill -you can contact me anytime about payment-thanks

[Pilot]

Thanks, I'm guessing I may be one of the first since you have been testing mine. I'm ready :)


Like I said, pouring concrete is 90% prep:

42001

Notice how much moisture the sand has absorbed. If I tried to tamp that without a layer of sand on top it would stick to the tamping rod and I'd end up shoveling it off every 5 seconds.

On topic: I've received shipping notice for the air filter labels. It is entirely possible the first few conversions will be ready to ship within a week or so.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[MountainGoat]

Like I said, pouring concrete is 90% prep:

42001

Notice how much moisture the sand has absorbed. If I tried to tamp that without a layer of sand on top it would stick to the tamping rod and I'd end up shoveling it off every 5 seconds.

On topic: I've received shipping notice for the air filter labels. It is entirely possible the first few conversions will be ready to ship within a week or so.

Bill Robertson
#5939

Looking forward to it! :)

[content22207_2]

Mixer in the back of the truck:

42013

I find it way easier to shovel the concrete from a wheel barrow than dumping the mixer into the form (much more control). It's also very difficult to empty the mixer when it's on the ground. I have to tip it totally off center into the wheel barrow and wiggle it all around to get all the concrete out. Can't do that when the mixer bottoms out at the bottom of the form. The mixer also barely clears the form. Notice how close the skids are to the mouth of the mixer -- when the skids are butted up against one side of the 2x4 the mouth of the mixer is almost touching the other. The only time I ever used it on the ground I ended up making ramps to get the mixer inside the form to dump it -- total PITA. I've been mixing in the back of the truck ever since.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[content22207_2]

I was thinking you were pouring a whole driveway or something one truckload at a time.

Concrete is suffering severe project creep. What started as repairing the end of a utility pad at the end of my driveway (broken off when the garage extension was poured) morphed into widening the utility pad to the edge of some telephone guy wires, then into extending the pad past the guy wires on one side so I'd have a place to store my tow dolly, then into extending the pad on the other side of the guy wires so it would be symmetrical. That's where things stand today at lunch.

I am now sorely tempted to extend the pad all the way to the end of the garage extension. Not only would that be imminently more useful, but I think it would look better. Right now I have what is basically a driveway adjacent to the garage that ends halfway down its width (I am going to pour a ramp to join the utility pad to the driveway, making them one).

So yes, it looks like I will end up pouring at least part of a driveway one truckload at a time. That wasn't my original intention, but that's what the project is morphing into. About 4.5 yards (18x24, less a knockout around the guy wires). Considering I am incorporating an existing 4x18 pad, and had to pour around the guy wires, I might almost be able to justify doing it this way (almost...).

Bill Robertson
#5939

[content22207_2]

I've only got 10x18 to go -- right at 2 yards -- so it's too late to call in a concrete truck anyway.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[content22207_2]

Finally got around to making air filter lids. Houston has made new airbox labels. Anyone who has ever wrestled with the 35 year old labels knows what a colossal PITA they are to get the backing paper off, then there is no adhesive left so you have to apply your own. These new ones are peel and stick, smooth as silk. If you've got an old label, buy one of the new ones before trying to use it (don't throw the old label away -- we still don't know how well these new ones are going to hold up).

Distinguishing characteristics of the new labels:
- Backing paper is larger than the label (sticks out around the edges)
- Backing paper has "3M" printed on it
- Silver printing is metal flake
- Black printing has a sand like texture rather than a pebble like texture

Bill Robertson
#5939

[content22207_2]

Just noticed: text in the "Change element" portion of the new labels is laid out differently. Extremely small price to pay for stickers that actually work, but it will be interesting to see if Concours judges pick up on it:

42058

Bill Robertson
#5939

[Jimmyd]

Just noticed: text in the "Change element" portion of the new labels is laid out differently. Extremely small price to pay for stickers that actually work, but it will be interesting to see if Concours judges pick up on it:

42058

Bill Robertson
#5939

Thanks for the update Bill

[content22207_2]

42061

It is difficult to overstate importance of these lids. They are the first thing people see when they look in your engine compartment. Kind of like the seats -- if the seats are in bad condition they overshadow the rest of the interior, even if the rest of the interior looks fine. A carb conversion with a chrome air filter lid just looks out of place.

42062

Bill Robertson
#5939

[content22207_2]

42063

Bill Robertson
#5939

[Jimmyd]

42063

Bill Robertson
#5939

Definitely a big difference

[Farrar]

It is difficult to overstate importance of these lids. They are the first thing people see when they look in your engine compartment. ... A carb conversion with a chrome air filter lid just looks out of place.

No one ever looks in my engine compartment.

Problem solved. ;)

[content22207_2]

If/when we pull this engine conversion off you may replace your engine cover with a piece of clear plexiglass to show the creation. Irrespective, you will get a new air filter lid (Farrar's original was damaged when his distributor cap caught fire).

Hopeful order of events:
- (May) Finish carb conversions
- (June/July) Drive summer camp (truncated to the end of July this year)
- (August) Help Byrne
- (August/September) Build/replace Farrar's engine
- (Autumn) Build garage extension
We'll see if life cooperates....


Bill Robertson
#5939

[joebob101]

Bill, The best thing I have done to my D is to install your carb conversion. It has made my car driveable, reliable, and responsive. The Kjet was a constant problem and I never knew if I would make it home . I have an automatic and have had a little trouble getting the shift points where I want them but I have not been very dedicated to solving the problem. I have the ball end transmission cable. I plan on working on it next week.

Thanks for your help to offer me a quality modification and to back me up with good advice.

Garen Martens

[content22207_2]

Those throttle ball ends are getting harder and harder to find. That's why I started using clevises and shoulder bolts on automatic conversions -- with two cables per conversion they consume cable ends at a prolific rate. I've got 8 throttle ball ends now (found two at an Autozone hub store), which is enough to meet remaining 5 speed conversions even if all fabricated manifolds are for manual transmissioned cars.

James' car is a 5 speed but he also is getting a clevis end. I was on a roll from automatic Peugeot conversions so I decided to use one for his too.

Throttle ball and clevis ends adjust the same way: tension the cable and tighten the cable stop. You've also got some adjustment via the hollow bolt the cable passes through (turn it out to effectively shorten the cable, turn it in to effectively lengthen the cable).

Bill Robertson
#5939

[content22207_2]

While we're on the subject of throttle cable attachment:

Both ball ends and clevises use a cable stop to attach the throttle cable. Make sure this cable stop is positioned to allow the throttle mechanism to fully close when the choke mechanism is warmed up. When the choke mechanism is cold, the throttle mechanism is offset towards the rear of the carb (throttle plates cracked open by the fast idle cam/screw). When the choke mechanism is warmed up, fast idle cam is rotated out of the way and the fast idle screw is actually sitting underneath it, allowing the throttle mechanism to close all the way towards the front of the carb, cable stop permitting.

42073

Bill Robertson
#5939

[content22207_2]

If you want to manually emulate the choke mechanism being fully warmed up, crack open the throttle plates (push back on the throttle mechanism) with one hand, push down this plastic piece with the other -- plastic piece connects the choke mechanism to the fast idle cam -- then let the throttle mechanism fully close:

42074

Fast idle screw will now be positioned underneath the cam (as if the spring inside the choke cap had heated up and done what you just did manually) allowing the throttle plates to fully close. Notice the choke plate is cracked open, even though the engine is stone cold.

BTW: This is why you give the accelerator pedal a little push before starting a cold engine -- cracking open the throttle plates moves the fast idle screw from underneath the fast idle cam, allowing it to rotate back around. Don't go crazy pumping the pedal -- just move it enough to let the choke mechanism return to its cold setting. Every time you push the accelerator pedal you shoot unatomized gasoline from the accelerator pump directly into the venturis. Little push squirts a little gasoline, big push squirts lots of gasoline. Very quickly floods the intake manifold with puddles of fuel.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[content22207_2]

Greg's conversion, ready to ship:

42084

My UPS store won't insure it unless they box it, so it will be packed in the final big box by them (carb & manifold are already peanuted in the USPS box). Air filter lid is inside the Edelbrock box with the rest of the filter assembly. Everything else is in the McMaster bag.

I've added up all my current costs:

42085

I am going to round it up to $1,225 because conversions that use throttle ball ends have an additional $20 cost (I have to buy a complete throttle cable just to get the plastic end).

It's still helluva good bargain. I sincerely doubt you could do an EFI conversion for $1,225.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[content22207_2]

On the old .com site Robert accused me of hoarding the secrets of DeLorean carburetion. Now he has every single part number and its current cost -- there's absolutely nothing holding him back from doing his own conversion (or anyone else for that matter).

Bill Robertson
#5939

[Drive Stainless]

On the old .com site Robert accused me of hoarding the secrets of DeLorean carburetion. Now he has every single part number and its current cost -- there's absolutely nothing holding him back from doing his own conversion (or anyone else for that matter).

Bill Robertson
#5939

Mmmm...is it really just a matter of having the part numbers? I seem to remember there was a little more to it than that.

[content22207_2]

Are you talking about all my uncompensated labor?

That's what galls me most about users like Louis Duet and Chad Krause. They are beneficiaries of hundreds, if not thousands, of dollars of free labor, yet have the audacity to accuse me of being a swindler and a cheat. Chad even posts YouTube videos in which he explicitly states "carb is doing its job well" (and you can plainly see and hear that his statement is accurate).

All I have ever asked is to be reimbursed for money spent on end users' behalf.

As a business model it sucks.

Users who do not have out of control entitlement complexes have been appreciative.

If Robert really wants to carburete his DeLorean, I've just given him a complete shopping list, down to the last nut and bolt. He will need to invest some sweat equity of his own.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[MountainGoat]

Greg's conversion, ready to ship:

42084

My UPS store won't insure it unless they box it, so it will be packed in the final big box by them (carb & manifold are already peanuted in the USPS box). Air filter lid is inside the Edelbrock box with the rest of the filter assembly. Everything else is in the McMaster bag.

I've added up all my current costs:

42085

I am going to round it up to $1,225 because conversions that use throttle ball ends have an additional $20 cost (I have to buy a complete throttle cable just to get the plastic end).

It's still helluva good bargain. I sincerely doubt you could do an EFI conversion for $1,225.

Bill Robertson
#5939

Awesome!! I look forward to give you money :D

[content22207_2]

No money changes hands until the conversion is ready to ship (couldn't even if I wanted to -- nearly 6% of the total is packging and shipping).

I sometimes have a hard time matching forum ID's to real names -- is "Mountain Goat" the same as "Steve Conley"?

Bill Robertson
#5939

[Jimmyd]

No money changes hands until the conversion is ready to ship (couldn't even if I wanted to -- nearly 6% of the total is packging and shipping).

I sometimes have a hard time matching forum ID's to real names -- is "Mountain Goat" the same as "Steve Conley"?

Bill Robertson
#5939

Thanks for the update Bill and the great deal

[MountainGoat]

No money changes hands until the conversion is ready to ship (couldn't even if I wanted to -- nearly 6% of the total is packging and shipping).

I sometimes have a hard time matching forum ID's to real names -- is "Mountain Goat" the same as "Steve Conley"?

Bill Robertson
#5939

Yeah, that's me!

[content22207_2]

Just so everyone's clear: with a carb conversion, whenever you remove the intake manifold the throttle cable bracket stays in the car:

42103

I'm pretty sure K-Jet is the same, but it's been so long I can't remember for certain.

Look at how much rain water accumulated in the intake valley just overnight (I drove the car last night and boiled the valley dry about 9:00):

42104

Bill Robertson
#5939

[Andrew]

Just so everyone's clear: with a carb conversion, whenever you remove the intake manifold the throttle cable bracket stays in the car:

42103

I'm pretty sure K-Jet is the same, but it's been so long I can't remember for certain.

Look at how much rain water accumulated in the intake valley just overnight (I drove the car last night and boiled the valley dry about 9:00):

42104

Bill Robertson
#5939

Bill: How are you liking the mechanical fuel pump? I've picked up two spare ones. It looks like they are NLA at autozone and rockauto.

[content22207_2]

This is how far rearward Peugeot manifolds position the carb versus Volvo (which is actually just a hair forward of the manifold center -- fabricated manifolds are dead center):

42106

That is why I use early model 2100's with choke pulloff integrated into the top casting versus rear mounted pulloff, for distributor clearance.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[content22207_2]

Yeah, that's me!

Your profile shows DMA as your club affiliation. Are you really in the northeast, or is that just vBulletin being weird?(Sometimes it shows affiliation with clubs you've never even visited, such as the Sub Saharan DeLorean Owners Association). If you are DMA, you may have met me at a past event.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[content22207_2]

Bill: How are you liking the mechanical fuel pump? I've picked up two spare ones. It looks like they are NLA at autozone and rockauto.

Added a spare to my last Amazon order. I wanted to ensure it was the same Sobaflex unit -- it is: http://www.amazon.com/Airtex-1436-Mechanical-Fuel-Pump/dp/B000C1CVAY/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1463877007&sr=8-1

Pump's treated me well for the past year. Somewhere between 3,000 and 4,000 miles. I've modified the barbs on mine (plugged the extra output barb and converted remaining in and out to standard brass barbs):

42107

I still have the electric pump in the tank, just not energized. I power it up every time I switch carbs to fill the bowl, then cut it back off. Mechanical pump pulls through a stationary electric pump no problem.

It's a tight squeeze between a Peugeot manifold throttle cable and the pump, but it fits. Don't think an auto trans shift point cable would fit however.

42108 42109

Bill Robertson
#5939

[MountainGoat]

Your profile shows DMA as your club affiliation. Are you really in the northeast, or is that just vBulletin being weird?(Sometimes it shows affiliation with clubs you've never even visited, such as the Sub Saharan DeLorean Owners Association). If you are DMA, you may have met me at a past event.

Bill Robertson
#5939

I'm in DMA but I haven't made it to an event yet. :) I joined DMA back when I was *looking* for a Delorean because I figured the clubs might help. I ultimately found my D via this forum actually. I'm a traveling consultant so I move around a lot ... I'm actually up in New Hampshire at the moment, though I'm from your neck of the woods (specifically, Raleigh NC) and go down there pretty frequently.

[content22207_2]

My records show your car as an automatic -- is that correct? (There are nuanced differences between 5 speed and automatic conversions).

Bill Robertson
#5939

[MountainGoat]

My records show your car as an automatic -- is that correct? (There are nuanced differences between 5 speed and automatic conversions).

Bill Robertson
#5939

Yes, sir! It's an automatic.

[content22207_2]

Bill: How are you liking the mechanical fuel pump? I've picked up two spare ones. It looks like they are NLA at autozone and rockauto.

I need some more concrete fibers so I bought them from Amazon this time and added another fuel pump to reach $49 for free shipping. Somebody might want to use a mechanical pump in place of an electric pump. I'll also need a pump eventually for #2508.

How did you get from the tank to your pump? I repurposed the old K-Jet return line (capped off the old accumulator tee). That line is right next to the pump so it works great. The rubber fuel line I previously used has been attached to the tank vapor line, so my tank now vents from the front of the car to the back then back to the front (travels about 26 feet to end up inches from where it started).

Bill Robertson
#5939

[Andrew]

I need some more concrete fibers so I bought them from Amazon this time and added another fuel pump to reach $49 for free shipping. Somebody might want to use a mechanical pump in place of an electric pump. I'll also need a pump eventually for #2508.

How did you get from the tank to your pump? I repurposed the old K-Jet return line (capped off the old accumulator tee). That line is right next to the pump so it works great. The rubber fuel line I previously used has been attached to the tank vapor line, so my tank now vents from the front of the car to the back then back to the front (travels about 26 feet to end up inches from where it started).

Bill Robertson
#5939

I used the return line on the fuel pump. Thus, I ran two new metal fuel lines from the tank, a 5/16 feed line and 1/4 return line between the driver's side frame rail and the underbody. I used a stock fuel pump boot with a canister type fuel filter in the location of the stock fuel pump. I found the filter which was the closest match to the diameter of the stock pump. The baffle is a modified spaghetti can that I braced and clamped to the fuel pump boot assembly. This allows the entire baffle and boot to drop-in as a single modular assembly, which was necessary because 5052's baffle retaining stud had rotted away in the old gas.

I've been running the mechanical pump for about 5,000 miles now with no problems.

Andrew
4194
5052

[Pilot]

PM sent. Just let me know how you want payment.


Greg's conversion, ready to ship:

42084

My UPS store won't insure it unless they box it, so it will be packed in the final big box by them (carb & manifold are already peanuted in the USPS box). Air filter lid is inside the Edelbrock box with the rest of the filter assembly. Everything else is in the McMaster bag.

I've added up all my current costs:

42085

I am going to round it up to $1,225 because conversions that use throttle ball ends have an additional $20 cost (I have to buy a complete throttle cable just to get the plastic end).

It's still helluva good bargain. I sincerely doubt you could do an EFI conversion for $1,225.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[content22207_2]

I ran two new metal fuel lines from the tank, a 5/16 feed line and 1/4 return line between the driver's side frame rail and the underbody.

?

Carburetors do not typically have a return line. I've never seen one.

You don't really need a fuel tank baffle with a carburetor. Bowl holds about a mile worth of fuel (moderate RPM's) -- way more than enough to compensate for fuel sloshing around curves. I guess a baffle would be nice on a very long incline.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[content22207_2]

PM sent. Just let me know how you want payment.

Rain finally stopped this afternoon, so I built another concrete form and started filling/leveling it. I should be able to finish that and get to UPS for a shipping quote tomorrow (I'm shooting for a Wednesday pour).

Bill Robertson
#5939

[Jimmyd]

Rain finally stopped this afternoon, so I built another concrete form and started filling/leveling it. I should be able to finish that and get to UPS for a shipping quote tomorrow (I'm shooting for a Wednesday pour).

Bill Robertson
#5939

Thanks for the update Bill

[Pilot]

Thanks again, I look forward to hearing from you.



Rain finally stopped this afternoon, so I built another concrete form and started filling/leveling it. I should be able to finish that and get to UPS for a shipping quote tomorrow (I'm shooting for a Wednesday pour).

Bill Robertson
#5939

[DMCVegas]

So we start with this low-quality bait which I ignored:


You know who the bad apples are. Their words speak for themselves.

Bill Robertson
#5939


When that didn't work at all to try and troll me, this one out of no where which I also ignored...


On the old .com site Robert accused me of hoarding the secrets of DeLorean carburetion. Now he has every single part number and its current cost -- there's absolutely nothing holding him back from doing his own conversion (or anyone else for that matter).

Bill Robertson
#5939


And then get this follow-up post to try and deliberately provoke:


<SNIP>

If Robert really wants to carburete his DeLorean, I've just given him a complete shopping list, down to the last nut and bolt. He will need to invest some sweat equity of his own.

Bill Robertson
#5939

As usual whenever Bill isn't getting any attention, he throws a temper-tantrum like a little child until he gets noticed.

So, let us AGAIN set the record straight about what really went down between you and I. We'll start there, and eventually move on to why you're a liar.

First off was a few years ago when I was exploring carburetion and Bill and I spoke about it. The difference which split us was that I wanted to take carburetor conversions and move them into the realm of being a commonly acceptable modification to the DeLorean. The only downside to this would have been that Bill would have been cut out of the process entirely, save for appropriate credit where credit was due. That is quite honestly the long and short of it. Which you've got to ask yourself, why is that a big deal? Keep in mind this wasn't because I was wanting to sell kits. Not at all. I wanted proper documentation so that people could source the parts themselves, and have building plans they could take to their own independent welders, fabricators, etc. when necessary to complete the work that they themselves could not. And I wasn't even going to charge for this at all. There would have been no monetary gains for either of us.

You see, contrary to Bill's lie that I'm not willing to do any of this work myself by way of his little "sweat equity" jab, the truth of the matter is that I didn't want Bill's help at all. Not only did I never ask for it in terms of the physical installation, I even declined his implied offers of how he could drive out to Las Vegas and help me install a carb on my car. Which is actually quite contrary to the implications of Bill's statement, now isn't it?

As stated, my goal has always been to keep carburetor conversions in the public domain in order to help fellow owners who needed access to such information. This meant proper documentation and supplemental documents. From a complete how-to guide, to templates and instructions on how to cut and modify an existing K-Jetronic manifold to accept a carburetor where applicable. Perhaps even reaching out to Borla who since their purchasing of TWM Induction actually has the molds for a modular PRV V6 intake manifold that can accommodate a wide variety of fuel delivery systems from EFI, to triple-dual barrels, and even six individual single-barrel carbs like Alpine used.

But Bill never tells any of you guys that, does he? What he does go on and on about is how this is all just out of the goodness of his heart for "free". But is it free, really? Bill may not claim to be making any money off of this, but you can bet he sure as hell is profiting in other ways. Because since he's your source for all the information, he's now got you in his debt and he gains LOADS of personal attention and praise that he wouldn't otherwise have.

And that's what it's all about: Bill got pissed-off at me because if carburetors were commonly accepted mods, ones that we could all easily do on our own like I intended, Bill wouldn't have any place in your lives. No praise, no pity, just another random guy.

And what was Bill's reaction to all of this? Let's talk about that and the many phases of what the accusations were, what the subsequent arguments were, and what the next accusation was once that passed:

Accusations of not being "smart" enough to know how to work on a carburetor.
Accusations that K-Jetronic (and practically any other fuel injection) was unreliable.
Accusations of being a "purist" that simply didn't want carburetors for the sake of preserving the originality of the car.
Attacking the car itself. Calling the DMC-12 "stupid", as well as many other attacks and name calling of the car to try and then incite a fight.
Trying to make fun of me for the length of my posts.
Breaking down and just trying to whine about how everyone is sooooo unfairly picking on him.


The first thing to understand is that this also didn't just involve myself. Bill got as many other DeLorean owners as possible riled up to try and keep us fighting among one another. As each of his accusations against myself and others were vomited up, subsequent arguments invalidated Bill's statements, and of course Bill just repeated himself ad nauseam. Then when that failed, he turned against the moderators until he got banned. After that he drifted over to DMCToday where he went through the same process until he wore out his welcome over there as well.

And here you are back again, under a new screen name, trying to start up the same shit as you did before. But now you're trying to up the ante with lies to accuse me of not wanting to put the work in to complete a carburetor conversion. As though I had demanded that in the first place. Again, I never asked for such help, and even outright turned you down when you repeatedly offered it. Because I have no desire to be in your debt, nor to ask you for anything.

I mean hell, what if I had said yes, bought one of these kits off of you, and then we had a disagreement about something else? I'd totally be up creek without a paddle, wouldn't I?

And just think, anyone who does buy a kit from you is in that same, very precarious situation as well. Piss Bill off, and you're not only permanently screwed, but he's going to ridicule you publicly. Just like me.

[content22207_2]

If Robert wants to start mass producing carb conversions, knock himself out. Lord knows I've got 1,001 other things to work on.

I have never kept any secrets. This is everything you need to make an intake manifold (already posted in Post #272):

42148

This is what the pieces look like before welding together (already posted in Post #166):

42149

This is what they look like welded into an intake manifold (this is a brand new picture, but I've posted dozens of similar pics throughout this thread -- I just wanted another picture on the living room carpet to go with the above individual pieces pic):

42146

This is everything else I use for a carb conversion (already posted in Post #297):

42147

This isn't the only way to do a carb conversion of course -- that's just how I do it. I have always been open and up front about what I make and how I make it. I even posted a picture of the welding jig that holds everything in alignment during welding.

Perhaps Robert can come up with a new design?

BTW: the bad apples were mentioned by name: Louis Duet, who chased me around two different Internet forums like a crazy ex-girlfriend, and Chad Krause, who hijacked Steve's forum which is still suffering repercussions.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[content22207_2]

To everybody who has been waiting for me to finish these latest conversions, thank you for being patient. I am not a commercial entity -- I am an unemployed middle age man working on these things as time becomes available. Carb conversions are just one of many irons in my fire.

Example: while filling and leveling a concrete form this morning I got a call from the summer camp. They have decided it would be a great idea this year for me to drive my school bus to other churches around the Presbytery picking up kids for summer camp and taking them home at the end of the week. This is in addition to driving kids to/from the horse farm every day, on canoeing and other field trips, driving a long standing mission trip (one I've driven since 2010 -- that's how my bus got involved with the summer camp in the first place), etc. Free of charge of course (last year they gave me a plaque).

Anybody who thinks I make carb conversions for a living is crazier than I am. It very much is a side hobby.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[MountainGoat]

To everybody who has been waiting for me to finish these latest conversions, thank you for being patient. I am not a commercial entity -- I am an unemployed middle age man working on these things as time becomes available. Carb conversions are just one of many irons in my fire.

Example: while filling and leveling a concrete form this morning I got a call from the summer camp. They have decided it would be a great idea this year for me to drive my school bus to other churches around the Presbytery picking up kids for summer camp and taking them home at the end of the week. This is in addition to driving kids to/from the horse farm every day, on canoeing and other field trips, driving a long standing mission trip (one I've driven since 2010 -- that's how my bus got involved with the summer camp in the first place), etc. Free of charge of course (last year they gave me a plaque).

Anybody who thinks I make carb conversions for a living is crazier than I am. It very much is a side hobby.

Bill Robertson
#5939

I'm just thankful you're doing it. I look forward to getting it -- but I can and will wait as long as is necessary. Thanks again for making this all happen.

[content22207_2]

Greg's conversion is boxed up by UPS and ready to ship (got a shipping quote).

I'm waiting to find out if PayPal charges a fee to receive money: http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?13704-PayPal-Fees-To-Seller&p=197727#post197727

Bill Robertson
#5939

[DMCVegas]

If Robert wants to start mass producing carb conversions, knock himself out. Lord knows I've got 1,001 other things to work on.

No, Bill, I never said anything of the sort at all. Which I also made quite clear in my previous posts. But there you go again trying to insinuate things against other people.

Along those lines, the silence your way is quite deafening when it comes to everything else. So at least we are in agreement on your acknowledgement/validation of everything else.

The sad thing of course is that it's more than just two people whom you have burned in the past, and we both know that. The question however is why this is, and are others not in danger of the same problem if they run afoul of your good graces?



To everybody who has been waiting for me to finish these latest conversions, thank you for being patient. I am not a commercial entity -- I am an unemployed middle age man working on these things as time becomes available. Carb conversions are just one of many irons in my fire.

Perhaps then you shouldn't have taken on such a burden if you were not up to the task?

[content22207_2]

I assure you: I am very much up to the task. In case you haven't noticed, the world isn't exactly overrun with people who can make an intake manifold from scratch.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[MountainGoat]

Greg's conversion is boxed up by UPS and ready to ship (got a shipping quote).

I'm waiting to find out if PayPal charges a fee to receive money: http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?13704-PayPal-Fees-To-Seller&p=197727#post197727

Bill Robertson
#5939

I responded on that thread -- the short of it is, "depends on how you receive the money". As a gift, no fee. As "goods or services" or if you invoice someone, then it's 2.9% plus 30 cents.

[content22207_2]

How does everybody feel about paying for their conversions as gifts?

(Considering I am doing them at cost, that really isn't far removed from the truth).

Bill Robertson
#5939

[MountainGoat]

How does everybody feel about paying for their conversions as gifts?

(Considering I am doing them at cost, that really isn't far removed from the truth).

Bill Robertson
#5939

I'll warn you that PayPal can give you shit for the smallest of things -- receiving a bunch of gifts all the sudden, for instance. However, I think given the small number of people involved it's probably okay. Be sure to withdraw the money right away in case PayPal flags your account -- they'll hold your money until they decide the matter's resolved if they take issue with what you're doing.

I've had a lot of (unfortunately bad) experience with paypal and will need to send you a check (or money order if you prefer) cause my own account is in paypal jail with no way to unlock it. :P Hopefully you're okay with that?

[content22207_2]

I thought I was the last person on Earth still writing paper checks.

If we can keep the Post Office solvent through the end of the month that would work too.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[MountainGoat]

I thought I was the last person on Earth still writing paper checks.

If we can keep the Post Office solvent through the end of the month that would work too.

Bill Robertson
#5939

Awesome! Thanks :)

[content22207_2]

James' conversion is ready to go to UPS.

I will give carb converters the option of paying with an old fashioned check, or PayPal and reimburse my 3% fee (they are already reimbursing my other costs).

Bill Robertson
#5939

[Jimmyd]

James' conversion is ready to go to UPS.

I will give carb converters the option of paying with an old fashioned check, or PayPal and reimburse my 3% fee (they are already reimbursing my other costs).

Bill Robertson
#5939

Hi Bill could you give the final total with shipping and is there any difference in shipping out time if I send you a personal check or postal money orders and also could you give me the name you want on the check or money order and your address thanks

[content22207_2]

Can't give you a total until UPS boxes everything up and calculates shipping.

PM me a street address and I will try to get over there tomorrow afternoon (I'm pouring concrete in the morning).

Bill Robertson
#5939

[Jimmyd]

Can't give you a total until UPS boxes everything up and calculates shipping.

PM me a street address and I will try to get over there tomorrow afternoon (I'm pouring concrete in the morning).

Bill Robertson
#5939

Hi Bill its Douglaston Queens New York 11362-thanks

[content22207_2]

UPS will need something a little more specific. Queens is too big for UPS to stand on the street corner shouting "Jimmy, where are you?"

Bill Robertson
#5939

[Jimmyd]

UPS will need something a little more specific. Queens is too big for UPS to stand on the street corner shouting "Jimmy, where are you?"

Bill Robertson
#5939

Hi bill I pmed you

[content22207_2]

James' conversion is boxed and ready to ship.

Apparently packing charges depend upon the day of the week. As you can clearly see, James' and Greg's boxes are 100% identical:

42190

But today they wanted to charge me $4 more. When I complained, the two guys behind the counter had a Come to Jesus meeting and ultimately let James off the hook for an extra 54 cents.

I know James didn't get more packing peanuts because both boxes are equally squishier than I would do it myself (compare to the inner carb/manifold box when you open them up). UPS is all "Ooo Ooo -- we can't insure it unless we pack it ourselves", and they complain that Wally World's shipping boxes are no good, but these boxes aren't exactly over instillling me with confidence. I'll let Greg and James draw their own conclusions if they survive the trip.

I am going to insure them to the single box maximum ($999.99).

Bill Robertson
#5939

[content22207_2]

templates and instructions on how to cut and modify an existing K-Jetronic manifold to accept a carburetor where applicable.

Corresponded with an owner last night about this very thing.

This is what Byrne is doing, and apparently it isn't working. That's why he wants me to come down there with one of my fabricated manifolds (BTW: if Byrne ends up buying three of them then all the manifolds I had welded up this winter will be gone).

K-Jet manifold is very good at being a K-Jet manifold, but it is not well suited to being a carbureted intake manifold. Cutting off and welding shut the common runners (the two parts that stick up) is difficult enough, but then you're left with individual cylinder runners running side to side the whole way down. Routing out a common plenum between the horizontal cylinder runners apparently isn't working very well. Don't know how big Byrne's common plenum is, but if it's the same size as the plate he has welded across the top then it's huge. The the fuel/air charge has to pass by other cylinders (and capped off runners on the other side) the whole way down. I suspect vacuum signals inside Byrne's manifolds are wildly inconsistent and they are probably very turbulent. He also has clearance issues with linkages that extend below the carb base. Byrne's been compensating by doubling up 1/4" thick baseplate gaskets.

I understand the allure of modifying K-Jet manifolds, but IMHO that really isn't the best way to go. Carbureted intake manifolds for V shaped engines have shared a common basic layout for nearly a hundred years for a reason.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[content22207_2]

This is the only picture I have of Byrne's conversions. Rich in upstate New York has one so perhaps he can provide more pictures.

42202

Bill Robertson
#5939

[Rich_NYS]

This is the only picture I have of Byrne's conversions. Rich in upstate New York has one so perhaps he can provide more pictures.

42202

Bill Robertson
#5939

The pics I have aren't much better than this one, I'll take some & post.

It runs good, but I don't think it looks as nice as yours. We also tried it on Andrew's car, it ran good on his also.

[content22207_2]

Not too sure what kind of problems Byrne is having. He just gave me a nebulous "it isn't running right". Wonder if it's that Made in China carburetor....

Bill Robertson
#5939

[content22207_2]

Steve's conversion ready for test driving:

42203

Bill Robertson
#5939

[Jimmyd]

Steve's conversion ready for test driving:

42203

Bill Robertson
#5939

Hi Bill sent out check earlier this afternoon

[Pilot]

Me also bill, the check is in the mail. Thanks again.

[content22207_2]

Apparently Darren is planning to put his manifolds on a shelf.

Is anybody actually going to install these things?

Bill Robertson
#5939

[content22207_2]

To everybody who's all "Ooo Ooo -- I'll stick with K-Jet for now", consider this:

I installed and removed Steve's intake manifold three times this afternoon (wanted to try these latest manifolds with both normal O rings and the oversize O rings I used to use). Took me about 5 minutes each time. Every 15-20 minutes I was looking straight down into a bare intake valley.

K-Jetters make going into the intake valley sound like an arctic expedition. That's ridiculous. I can be into mine in a matter of minutes. Of course there's really no reason to go down there unless you're test driving intake manifolds (ignition distributor, clutch slave, heater core hoses, etc are accessible with the manifold in place), but if you all want to continue to work around K-Jet, knock yourselves out.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[dmruschell]

Apparently Darren is planning to put his manifolds on a shelf.

Is anybody actually going to install these things?

Bill Robertson
#5939

If KJet is running correctly, there's no reason for me to mess with it. The advantage to carburetion is that the conversion kit is cheaper than replacing a bunch of KJet parts. I mentioned earlier in this very thread that I wanted to get the kits as insurance for if/when the KJet system fails, as I plan on keeping our cars for a very long time. The conversion kits are about as expensive as a rebuilt fuel distributor and metering housing. If a product is offered and a customer willing to pay the asking price, what does it matter what the customer does with it?

[content22207_2]

It's like building an Apollo rocket but never going to the moon.

You all are free to do whatever you want. For my part, you will never hear me complain about difficulty accessing anything on my engine. Or wonder if hoses under my intake manifold are leaking (because of its open design Steve will be able to look into his intake valley with the manifold in place, assuming he actually puts the poor thing on his car...). There's a post on this forum somewhere about hugging your transmission and working by braille to change the slave cylinder -- that's crazy. My slave cylinder is totally exposed from above.

Among various advantages of carburetion, accessibility rates very high for me. The PRV was not designed for the K-Jet system it eventually inherited. Even the first K-Jet iteration (1975-1978 ) was very different from the installation most DeLorean owners know (fuel/air mixture unit was hung underneath a stool shaped intake manifold, leaving the distributor, water pump, hoses, etc exposed):

42210

Owners sometimes wonder why Douvrin designed the engine with its important parts buried. The answer is they didn't -- when the engine was first laid down important PRV bits either were exposed or readily accessible. Inaccessibility was a relatively late innovation.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[content22207_2]

There are other advantages, in addition to accessibility, of carburetion over K-Jet of course: safety, reliability, centralized/single point fuel metering (no leaking or bad spraying injectors), lower cost, no special tools necessary, wider availability of parts, fewer failure points, user reports of increased performance (somebody really needs to dyno one of these conversions), better known among 3rd party mechanics, etc.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[content22207_2]

Whereas K-Jetted Deloreans seem to be suffering the Fire of the Day, to the best of my knowledge no carbureted DeLorean has ever caught fire.

It is true Farrar's distributor cap caught fire, but that would have happened even if he was K-Jetted. One of the weaknesses of Bosch rotor buttons is the damn things melt:

42211
42212
42213
42214
42215
42216
42217

Please note that even with his distributor cap blazing away, Farrar's carburetor just sat there patiently waiting for him to put the flames out. It really is a much safer system than 75 PSI of fuel that can't be de-pressurized.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[dmruschell]

There are other advantages, in addition to accessibility, of carburetion over K-Jet of course: safety, reliability, centralized/single point fuel metering (no leaking or bad spraying injectors), lower cost, no special tools necessary, wider availability of parts, fewer failure points, user reports of increased performance (somebody really needs to dyno one of these conversions), better known among 3rd party mechanics, etc.

Bill Robertson
#5939

All of these are reasons why I want to have the carb kits if something happens to the KJet on my cars. This seems like the last opportunity to be able to purchase a tested carburetor kit, and I don't want to miss that opportunity because of the reasons mentioned.

It's not quite like building an Apollo Rocket and not going to the moon. It's building the rocket and all the tools necessary to settle and live on the moon in case things go badly on Earth. As long as things on Earth are OK, there's not an immediate need to leave, but it's good to have a plan in place when things do eventually go badly :)

[content22207_2]

Carbureted fuel line runs 6-8 PSI max (less than that when the needle valve is open).

There is of course no pressure inside the carburetor itself (just whatever atmospheric pressure around the entire vehicle happens to be).

Bill Robertson
#5939

[content22207_2]

It is true Farrar's distributor cap caught fire, but that would have happened even if he was K-Jetted. One of the weaknesses of Bosch rotor buttons is the damn things melt

I wonder how many of these DeLorean fires were caused by melted distributor caps.

Nothing quite like an open flame directly underneath your fuel distributor, eh?

Bill Robertson
#5939

[content22207_2]

Forgot one:

42218

Bill Robertson
#5939

[Jimmyd]

Forgot one:

42218

Bill Robertson
#5939

Hi bill mine is going on the car -I bought the car with fire damage to the fuel delivery system -supposedly fire started from a hi power stereo system burnt up the whole fuel system luckily not the car -car came with all the fuel lines to repair but I don't want all that rubber in the engine compartment -I don't understand because Ferrari and Porsche use metal lines in their engine compartment -thanks again for your help and effort

[content22207_2]

Renault engine that was in my car when I bought it (metal fuel lines):

42220

Fuel distributor had copper sealing washers, but the injectors used flare fittings, which are generally rated 2,000 plus PSI.

(Of course I used rubber fuel injection hose to/from the distributor...).

Bill Robertson
#5939

[content22207_2]

I bought the car with fire damage to the fuel delivery system

Exactly how many of these little cars have burned up?

Bill Robertson
#5939

[DMCMW Dave]

Exactly how many of these little cars have burned up?

Bill Robertson
#5939

How would anyone possibly have an answer to that?

[content22207_2]

It's called a rhetorical question. Like asking "Exactly how does Donald Trump make his hair do that?" Obviously there's an answer, but mere mortal aren't expected to know it.

God knows how many DeLoreans have immolated themselves. That's why on the Eighth Day He created fire extinguishers.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[DMCVegas]

How would anyone possibly have an answer to that?

No one does, of course. But this is exactly how Bill operates. He will attack others simply to make himself look good. He's talking about the advantages of his carburetor over K-Jetronic, and really only has the accessibility factor for the Ignition Distributor to go off of. Never mind that there is a special wrench designed to loosen and tighten the retaining bolt for easy adjustment of the distributor, Bill has run out of arguments.

So next up is the attack phase, and K-Jetronic is now in his sights. As it was pointed out that you don't really need access to the area under the manifold if a car is properly maintained, which was an argument he couldn't stand. So now he's escalating his aggression to now blaming K-Jetronic for engine fires. Instilling fear into people is his next move in order to try and win at the expense of the car. DéjÃ* vu...

Millions of vehicles globally over a span of decades have used K-Jetronic with no problems. From the tiniest little econobox to various high-end super cars, and everything in between. Yet the vast majority of these cars have had no such problems of engine fires and the like. But that doesn't matter, because Bill has to win his argument at any cost. Next up he'll attack the DeLorean again because it isn't any of these cars so it must somehow be different, then we'll move on to the whole "we're just against carburetion because we're purists" shtick, and finally it'll just end up with Bill crying about how he he is being unfairly picked-on. We've been through this all before.

Now if we really want to talk about flammability problems, let's look at these carburetor conversions. Never minding the fact that carburetors backfire, or even catch fire themselves like this:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cw6f3M82rOw

Don't know about you, but I've never seen K-Jetronic do that... But let's talk about the other danger here: fuel vapors. Vapors can escape from the carb bowls, and even worse is the fact that last time I checked, Bill's design just vents out all fuel vapor to the atmosphere.

That is a dangerous problem.

Some garages might have a furnace, but pretty much almost every single garage is going to have a water heater out in it. Especially gas ones. And if you've ever looked at the warning labels, you're going to see one of these stickers on the side:

http://i.imgur.com/0YnbErT.jpg

I'm going to tell everyone right now: If you think that removing carburetors is going to somehow magically reduce your chance of a fire risk, you're dead wrong. I don't care what PSI K-Jetronic, EFI, or Carburetors run their fuel supplies at. Because even when parked and the pressure is at ZERO you can still leak vapors with this design and cause a fire. You perform an incorrect Carburetor installation, and you're just going to make your car more dangerous.

And I know that now Bill is just going to blabber on about how he doesn't think that this is a problem, and will try and justify this by claiming that since he hasn't ever had such a problem that should be proof enough. Just like how he skips out on the safety precautions on towing and hauling. But things like this HAVE happened in the past. If they didn't, there wouldn't be warning labels. People should be aware of exactly what they are getting into.

[content22207_2]

You perform an incorrect Carburetor installation, and you're just going to make your car more dangerous.

I couldn't agree more. I uphold my end of the bargain, but it's incumbent upon conversion buyers to uphold theirs.

ie: If Robert has no idea what he is doing, he really shouldn't buy a carb conversion from me.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[DMCVegas]

I couldn't agree more. I uphold my end of the bargain, but it's incumbent upon conversion buyers to uphold theirs.

ie: If Robert has no idea what he is doing, he really shouldn't buy a carb conversion from me.

Bill Robertson
#5939

It is impossible to perform a correct installation when you yourself cannot supply the proper instructions or engineering, and your designs place people at risk.

[Drive Stainless]

It is impossible to perform a correct installation when you yourself cannot supply the proper instructions or engineering, and your designs place people at risk.

Which part of the carburetor assembly places people at risk that cannot be attributed to Ford/Motocraft?

[content22207_2]

It's a Ford carburetor. The exact same carburetor Ford put on Mustangs for a quarter century (and F-150's, and Galaxies, and Torinos, and T-Birds, and...). If Robert needs step by step paint by number connect the dots instructions, the Internet is chock full of them. I am not going to hold his hands while he types in a Google search.

I fully admit the intake manifold is a unique construction, but it's a big hunk of aluminum. Kind of hard to write instructions for an intake manifold:
1) Bolt intake manifold to engine
2) Bolt carburetor to intake manifold

Everything else is off the shelf. Fuel pump is Airtex, now being marketed by Autozone under their house brand. Fuel filter also is Autozone, but any fuel filter that fits in the bracket will work (about a bazillion options because the bracket is 8 inches wide). Motorcraft carburetors use standard 5 1/8" air filter necks (nearly all 4 barrel carbs have that neck), so there are a bazilllion air filter options as well. I provide an Edelbrock 10" housing because that fits my lids perfectly, and it comes with a PCV breather barb already attached (some aftermarket air filter housings come with the barb loose).

Speaking of which: step by step instructions to install my proprietary air filter lid:
1) Put air filter housing base on carburetor
2) Put air filter element into base
3) Put custom air filter lid on top of air filter element
4) Screw nut onto air filter stud to hold everything together

I assure you: people have been messing with carbs in their driveways for decades. There is a huge aftermarket business catering to this market, especially (but certainly not limited to) Jegs and Summit.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[content22207_2]

Every single conversion gets test driven on my own car, so the carburetor shows up already tuned and ready to fill with fuel/turn the key. It's even pre-bolted to the intake manifold (this is how they come out of the UPS box: http://www.gulfcoastdeloreans.com/images/K-Jetectomy%20July%2010%202010/P7107740.jpg).

If an owner wants to experiment with tuning himself, the Internet is full of how to instructions, including this forum post (even includes annotated pictures): http://www.dmctoday.com/showthread.php?161-Autolite-Motorcraft-2100-2150-Theory-of-Operation&p=15401&viewfull=1#post15401

Any owner unwilling to perform basic Internet searches for one of the most popular carburetors in history probably shouldn't buy one of my conversions.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[content22207_2]

Fuel pump is Airtex, now being marketed by Autozone under their house brand.

My fuel pump carrier has a 1/8 NPT barb at the bottom. Any fuel pump that screws onto a 1/8 NPT barb, and fits within the carrier, will work. You also have the option of attaching a pipe nipple to the carrier and mounting the fuel pump elsewhere (Sam Hill mounted an electric pump in the engine compartment). I am running a PRV mechanical pump mounted to the engine itself, drawing through a de-energized electric pump in the carrier.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[DMCVegas]

Which part of the carburetor assembly places people at risk that cannot be attributed to Ford/Motocraft?

How about the one that isn't connected to a Charcoal Canister and lets the fuel cell vent raw gasoline vapor out into the garage to potentially start a fire? And what about that lack of proper tuning & troubleshooting procedures that can lead to backfiring and spitting out fire? Again, how the hell is this "safer" than K-Jetronic?

Oh wait, that's right. If I point that out, it kills Bill's argument. And of course he's just going to babble on about how people should already be able to tune a carburetor before installing one. No one can ever ask you how either because you just keep on berating people for not knowing/pointing out your flaws/making you look bad in general.

You want to hawk these kits, that's fine by me. I've got no problem with that. I've always maintained that we should keep alternatives available in order to keep cars on the road. I don't like however your laissez faire attitude towards to safety.

But most of all is the the fact that if you go after the marque and seek to tarnish it with baseless accusations to either incite and/or win one of your little arguments, that is where I draw the line and will come out against you. And you have done it time and time again.

You don't care about DeLoreans, Bill, let alone fellow owners. You're just in this for the attention is all.

[content22207_2]

Ford Motor Company has been in continuous production for 113 years.

DeLorean Motor Company was bankrupt 9 months after their cars hit the showrooms.

You do the math.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[content22207_2]

Ford Motor Company has been in continuous production for 113 years.

Ford did not build consumer automobiles during World War II, but they did crank out B-24 bombers at the rate of one airplane every hour (63 minutes actually). Ford built other armaments too.

Consumer production resumed in 1946.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[sdg3205]

Ford Motor Company has been in continuous production for 113 years.

DeLorean Motor Company was bankrupt 9 months after their cars hit the showrooms.

You do the math.

Bill Robertson
#5939

Good thing Ford never cut corners on safety!

Cough....pinto.....cough.

Had to do it.

[dmruschell]

How about the one that isn't connected to a Charcoal Canister and lets the fuel cell vent raw gasoline vapor out into the garage to potentially start a fire? And what about that lack of proper tuning & troubleshooting procedures that can lead to backfiring and spitting out fire? Again, how the hell is this "safer" than K-Jetronic?

Oh wait, that's right. If I point that out, it kills Bill's argument. And of course he's just going to babble on about how people should already be able to tune a carburetor before installing one. No one can ever ask you how either because you just keep on berating people for not knowing/pointing out your flaws/making you look bad in general.

You want to hawk these kits, that's fine by me. I've got no problem with that. I've always maintained that we should keep alternatives available in order to keep cars on the road. I don't like however your laissez faire attitude towards to safety.

But most of all is the the fact that if you go after the marque and seek to tarnish it with baseless accusations to either incite and/or win one of your little arguments, that is where I draw the line and will come out against you. And you have done it time and time again.

You don't care about DeLoreans, Bill, let alone fellow owners. You're just in this for the attention is all.

The carb catching fire in the video wasn't the carburetor's fault. In the comments, the video poster states that they had 2 plug wires swapped. Operator error was the cause.

You're also forgetting that most cars before 1970 did vent their gas tanks to the air without any canister whatsoever. I have 3 cars that have their gas tanks vented to the atmosphere through rubber hose and/or vented gas caps. They came from the factory that way. I have the charcoal canisters hooked up on every car that came with them, though, as they don't hurt anything and reduce gas smells. Even with the canisters hooked up, gas still evaporates out of the carb bowls into the atmosphere (unless the carb bowls are also connected to the canister like some Quadrajets were in the 70s).

There are risks of fire and bad stuff happening with KJet. There are risks of bad things happening with carburetors. As mentioned by Bill (and myself if I remember correctly), if you don't know how to install a carburetor, then you shouldn't attempt the conversion. There are no "how to" guides for replacing a Quadrajet with a Carter/Edelbrock or Holley in the manuals that come with the replacement carburetors. People have to research and figure out how to do that on their own and make sure they route everything correctly at their own risk. I wasn't happy with how my professional mechanic handled the charcoal canister lines when my QJet on my 79 Vette was replaced with an Edelbrock carb, so I researched and figured out how to connect it the best way possible with the setup I have. The same would apply here. I don't expect Bill to hold my hand through the process when I install the carburetor on my DeLorean. That's not his job, and not what I'm spending money on. I'm spending money on the parts that will allow me to do it myself with my own set of skills (though, I'm sure he and the other carbed owners would help on this forum if I did run into trouble). Just like replacing a QJet with an aftermarket carb on a muscle car is a "do it at your own risk" project, so is replacing KJet with a carb. At least, that's how I see it.

[content22207_2]

Poor Robert doesn't understand evaporative emissions at all. It has absolutely nothing to do with safety whatsoever. It is a government mandated pollution control device -- that's it. Wasn't introduced until the 1970's.

I give owners charcoal canister blockoff plates as an option. To date every single converter has elected to use them (it's a very common place to mount the fuel filter), but if an owner ever decides to plumb a charcoal canister in I am more than happy to tell him or her how to do it. There are only three lines: in from the gas tank, out to the manifold, and purge signal from the carb (ported vacuum). Not exactly rocket science.

Still has no bearing on safety.

In the exciting world of carburetion at least, Robert's knowledge base appears to have some pretty big gaps. Many years ago he was hot & bothered to do a carb conversion on his car. Don't know if that is still the case. If it is, until those gaps are filled in, I would advise against doing so. A little research now would likely save him headaches down the road.

Irrespective, it isn't my job to do Robert's research for him.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[content22207_2]

To the best of my knowledge riding lawn mowers (which are carbureted) still do not have evaporative emissions.

Every weekend millions of Americans ride around on non-emissioned lawn mowers in relative safety.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[DMCVegas]

You're also forgetting that most cars before 1970 did vent their gas tanks to the air without any canister whatsoever. I have 3 cars that have their gas tanks vented to the atmosphere through rubber hose and/or vented gas caps. They came from the factory that way. I have the charcoal canisters hooked up on every car that came with them, though, as they don't hurt anything and reduce gas smells. Even with the canisters hooked up, gas still evaporates out of the carb bowls into the atmosphere (unless the carb bowls are also connected to the canister like some Quadrajets were in the 70s).

I didn't forget any of that at all. But what I will positively state is the painfully obvious that times changed. Especially going forward with future dangers which were realized which included flammable fumes in people's garages that could ignite. Which is why building codes started demanding that water heaters be placed upon pedestals above the ground, and compounded building codes came into effect to require vents in garages to expel dangerous gasses. There is a very good reason why modern homes have elevated thresholds for attached garage doors. Particularly with the move to make homes so much more efficient that gasses now get sealed inside our homes much easier to stop heat from leaking out.

So by the same token, while once upon a time cars were built very differently, so were houses too.


There are risks of fire and bad stuff happening with KJet. There are risks of bad things happening with carburetors.

Which is exactly what I've been saying all along. If something isn't running correctly, you've got to fix it. And if you fix it incorrectly, there are dangers to be had. In all fairness here, this argument with Bill goes way beyond just this thread alone. But the same old tactic and themes with him keep on reappearing. Take a look at what you just wrote about bad things happening to both carburetors and K-Jetronic. There are risks of bad things happening with both, and you're absolutely correct. But Bill doesn't want to admit that because he wants his Carbureted conversion kits to somehow remain "superior".

Like I say, this argument goes back a long ways to where people would pop-up and say they were having trouble with their fuel injection systems, and Bill would then just pounce and shit-talk the cars and ruin people's confidence in them. Just like he's done now with these little jabs where he is trying to blame people's cars catching fire on K-Jetronic in and of itself alone being the cause of the fires. Which is of course him trying to insinuate that had those cars have had Carburetors, such tragedies would never have happened. That right there is where I absolutely take exception and will go on the offensive. You want to start spreading incorrect information, ideas, and outright lies around, then be prepared to be held accountable.

Just as how in that video the person who worked on the engine was responsible for the fire, the same can be said for someone who reuses the Copper or Aluminum crush washers that seal the fuel lines on the Banjo Fittings. It's not K-Jetronic's fault at all if someone doesn't perform a proper repair, just as the same would be true with a carburetor. Which again is just as correct for when it comes to properly tuning a vehicle. Myself and others have always strived for this truth to be known. Got a problem, you need to fix it, and we can probably help you. Whereas Bill has continually just put people and the system itself down to make himself look better so that he can garner more attention. Notice too how he's never denied that.

And people who go through that conversion to Carburetors are on their own, aren't they? There is plenty of documentation of how to tune & troubleshoot K-Jetronic; both in general and the DeLorean specific application. You have a problem and you can buy a book, watch a YouTube video, call a vendor, or even post online and you've got help available at your fingertips. Can't do that with these carbs, can you? The answer is just always one that you should know what you're doing. Which was one of my points to begin with. What happens when you get stuck? Or if you ever tried to sell the car? Modifications themselves always throw the car purchase into question, but seeing the lack of a support network really impacts the salability.

See, when DMCH started coming out with their "Stage II" engines and the like, that was one of the questions I asked them: How can I tune this engine in the future if I were to buy one? And the answer was that the specs were the exact same as the workshop manual, so I, nor any other mechanic, should never have a problem doing so.

I asked from the beginning how to perform a full carburetor conversion and how to subsequently tune it as well. And all I got back was Bill and others berating me. That's not what the marque is about. If right off the bat we treated others the way I have been treated for simply asking questions, and snapped back at them for the simplest of questions that they should already know what they're asking, hardly any of us would have stuck around this long. That says a lot to me about this whole situation.

[DMCVegas]

To the best of my knowledge riding lawn mowers (which are carbureted) still do not have evaporative emissions

Then obviously you know know much of anything at all, because they do have evaporative emissions systems now. Larger units will come with an actual charcoal canister, and the rest have sealed tanks to prevent gasoline vapors from leaking out. Same with how gas cans also have evaporative controls now to recapture fuel vapors.



Every weekend millions of Americans ride around on non-emissioned lawn mowers in relative safety.

Yep, there it is. Bill's lame excuse of, "It hasn't happened yet, so it never will!" when it comes to safety. Here's a hit: People are safe because of those regulations which you didn't even realize were in place.



Poor Robert doesn't understand evaporative emissions at all. It has absolutely nothing to do with safety whatsoever. It is a government mandated pollution control device -- that's it. Wasn't introduced until the 1970's.

No, I understand it quite well. Both in terms of the environmental regulations, as well as the surrounding implications. Just because it is an emissions rules doesn't mean that it's not also keep you safe from other dangers as well. A danger that in itself wasn't realized until about a decade or so later. The two items are not mutually exclusive of one another.

The other safety item as well is just blocking off the vapor recovery tube as well. You've got two radiator pipes that butt-up against the fuel tank, and can rapidly build pressure and force the tank to vent. Which it will either do through the seals on the pump & sending unit, or through the gas cap itself. And with that gas cap the fumes then get sucked in through the plenum and get pumped into the passenger compartment. Fire hazard aside, that is a huge health concern from headaches, asphyxiation, to even passing out while driving. And none of that is speculation I can assure you. The risks are real, and I've even witness the fuel vapors inside of my own car from a malfunctioning Charcoal Canister.

You can't just "pick & choose" your arguments here, Bill. Ignoring something doesn't invalidate it. Closing your eyes does not make something go away. You are neither a house cat, nor a 2 year old child.



Ford Motor Company has been in continuous production for 113 years.

DeLorean Motor Company was bankrupt 9 months after their cars hit the showrooms.

You do the math.

Bill Robertson
#5939

Really? You want to go there? You want to pull that card? Ok then...

1. What does the lifespan of a company have to actually do with the laws of physics? Let alone a single, solitary, goddamed thing in this argument about fuel delivery methods?

2. So says the guy with no job who is self-proclaimed as being middle-aged and unemployed.

BONUS ROUND!

3. Should we really go down that road to ask the question of "How many times have you personally filed bankruptcy, Bill?" and other financial history. Is that what you want?

[content22207_2]

Good News: Lowes has concrete on sale this weekend.

Bad News: Lowes only has 60 lbs bags on sale this weekend.

They are a little bit obnoxious to deal with (I split a bag to put 2 and a half bags in each mix), but they are easier to carry between trucks.

And at $1.98 a bag it is basically the same price as ready mix -- certainly factoring in short charges: $132 per yard. You save nearly $60 over a pallet of 80 lbs bags (they are normally the same price). A pallet of 60 lbs bags weighs the same as a pallet of 80 lbs bags: 3,360 lbs (56 bags).

Sale lasts through June 6.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[content22207_2]

My reinforcing fibers are divided into 160 lbs piles, and they're a tad rich at that (I'm dividing each pound into 20 piles now) -- that's why I went with 150 lbs per mixer load. My mixer can't hold 180 lbs (it barely holds 160).

Speaking of reinforcing fibers: I formed some runout into a brick, then tried to break it after it had dried. Even after only a week it was virtually impossible. I ultimately was able to crack it with a cold chisel. Reinforcing fibers are the only way to go.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[content22207_2]

Well shit -- looks like I am doing Robert's research for him after all:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msoObGCsPPg&list=PLW6ldANUGW99rbL3A5DPm5VdwSbt8vn0B

This is just the very first video that comes up -- there are pages and pages of them (I like the fellow rebuilding his Autolite 2100 on a 5 gallon bucket).

Why on earth does Robert persist insisting that the Autolite/Motorcraft 2100 series is an obscure piece of hardware, and that I am the only person on the face of the planet who knows about it. That is 2 steps beyond ridiculous. Give it a rest already -- that conspiracy theory is too far out even for Donald Trump.

The 2100 is one of the most widely used carburtors in history. As stated, YouTube is full of people rebuilding them (don't take my word for it -- type "rebuild Motorcraft 2100" in the search box). The Internet is full of people selling even the most miniscule of spare parts. Every single Autozone and Advance stocks rebuild kits (as does NAPA, O'Reilly, Pep Boys, etc).

I grow very weary of Robert's neverending insistence that the 2100 is an unknown/unknowable carburetor.

My dearest Robert: before writing yet another 500 word essay about how I hoard secrets of the Ford 2100 carburetor, please do a few Google and YouTube searches first.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[content22207_2]

There is plenty of documentation of how to tune & troubleshoot K-Jetronic; both in general and the DeLorean specific application. You have a problem and you can buy a book, watch a YouTube video, call a vendor, or even post online and you've got help available at your fingertips. Can't do that with these carbs, can you?

Actually, yes you can....

Bill Robertson
#5939

[content22207_2]

People have to research and figure out how to do that on their own and make sure they route everything correctly at their own risk.

I fully agree that users are responsible for routing their own hoses, but I do have suggested routings they are welcome to use (I provide each user annotated pictures). Of course if they want to come up with their own alternatives they have that option as well. But it's not as though they have nothing to start with: there are vetted routings on other conversions that have proven reliable.

If I provide it, the carburetor definitely is not a blank sheet of paper. I know 2100's better than the back of my own hand and can arguably rebuild one better than the "professionals" (Champion, National, Pony Carbs, etc). If an owner buys a carb from me, he is guaranteed not only to get one that is properly spec'd, but one that has been test driven and tuned on my own car. Of course owners have the option of sourcing their own carbs, but that is definitely their responsibility to get the proper specs and set it up -- I am only responsible for the carburetors I provide.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[DMCVegas]

Well shit -- looks like I am doing Robert's research for him after all:

Within the realm of your logic, Bill, that wouldn't count at all since it's not DeLorean-specific.

But once again, you're nothing if predictable. Call Bill out enough and get him backed into a corner, and he'll finally do what you've asked him to just to prove that he can once you've told him that he can't. Because he's almost completed writing the how-to guide I asked him to. You'd just need to collate all of Bill's posts together, edit out all of his failed trolling, and you'd damn-near have a complete carburetor conversion guide for a DeLorean. Just like I asked him for those years ago.

Now how hard was that to have done in the first place, Bill?

[content22207_2]

Did Robert do his own homework in school, or did he stamp his feet like a petulant child screaming "I don't understand, somebody do it for me!"

Bill Robertson
#5939

[content22207_2]

Can anybody figure out what Robert's motivation is, beyond causing mischief and creating a stir?

I can't imagine he is actually serious about carbureting his car (by his own signature line admission he "ain't doing jack to his car").

Near as I can tell he only wants to cause problems.

In exhaustively long posts....

Personally I find it quite rude for Robert to insert himself into someone else's thread, where people are trying to conduct serious business, and stomp around like a puerile child. Surely he doesn't act like that in public.

To owners who ask serious questions, and truly want to learn about carburetion (at least as I implement it) as a fuel delivery alternative -- THANK YOU. Even owners who don't want to carburete their cars have asked me questions and gathered information simply to be better informed. *THAT* is how grownups behave.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[content22207_2]

puerile child

Redundant -- apologies.

Petulant child.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[Pilot]

just checking, did you get my check. I was thinking it may be there today?

[content22207_2]

Oooooo -- present from Amazon:

43352

This one's laid out a little bit differently than my other two pumps, but I can still make it work (pull out the 5/16" barb and replace it with an elbow, pull out the 1/4" barb and plug it as usual). I've seen this style pump on British eBay. It's made in Italy, not France (it isn't a Sobaflex unit -- Logo has a large "B" and "D" with "TORINO" between them).

Bill Robertson
#5939

[content22207_2]

just checking, did you get my check. I was thinking it may be there today?

Check's been deposited (Greg's too). I'll try to get to UPS on Friday (I'm building and leveling a concrete form this afternoon for a pour tomorrow).

Bill Robertson
#5939

[Spittybug]

The childishness of this back and forth is unbecoming of either of you. Please grow up.

[Jimmyd]

The childishness of this back and forth is unbecoming of either of you. Please grow up.

Hi Bill just wondering if you received my check yet -thanks

[dustybarn]

Oooooo -- present from Amazon:

43352

This one's laid out a little bit differently than my other two pumps, but I can still make it work (pull out the 5/16" barb and replace it with an elbow, pull out the 1/4" barb and plug it as usual). I've seen this style pump on British eBay. It's made in Italy, not France (it isn't a Sobaflex unit -- Logo has a large "B" and "D" with "TORINO" between them).

Bill Robertson
#5939

That's interesting! I wonder who made it. Mine is a Sofabex. Does the 1/4 barb have a tiny ID?
Sofabex is an interesting company. 25+years ago, when I worked for Carter Carburetor in St. Louis, Sofabex was interested in partnering with us to market electric fuel pumps for injection applications, which we made and they didn't. I did a ton of flow testing of our pumps for them. They were a very congenial, family-owned company with their headquarters in their house. Very pleasant and very French.

[content22207_2]

Same basic design (but not 100% identical construction -- appears to be yet another manufacturer): http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/VOLVO-264-265-1975-RENAULT-R30-PEUGEOT-504-604-TAGORA-FUEL-PETROL-PUMPTFP-6950-/252407460133?hash=item3ac4a83125:g:cegAAOSwPcVVibo y

I only have one carburetor, so I only need one outlet barb. I pull and plug the 1/4" one.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[content22207_2]

Yet another barb configuration: http://www.ebay.com/itm/PEUGEOT-504-604-VOLVO-260-NEW-FUEL-PUMP-/281950962079?hash=item41a596419f:g:sxsAAOSwQYZW1eg r&vxp=mtr

Bill Robertson
#5939

[Andrew]

Since the future availability of the mechanical fuel pumps for our engines appears to be questionable, I've been stocking up on them. The first two mechanical fuel pumps that I purchased were Sofabex. The third was the "Torino" unit that Bill pictured above. All three were repackaged as "Airtex 1436" units.

[content22207_2]

And I though DeLoreans were problematic....

Yesterday while building a concrete form I obviously disturbed a big black ant mound because they stuck their noses all in my business while I was trying to work. I thought beating them to death with the tamping rod would get the message across, but obviously it didn't because today while pouring concrete they came right back. I didn't mind entombing them inside the pad, but the ones on the surface kept getting stuck and flailing their legs around, totally messing up my float. Eventually the concrete skinned over enough that they could run around on the surface without getting stuck (ants don't weigh very much) so I went inside to eat a late lunch. When I came back the ants were gone, replaced by bird footprints. The damn thing was obviously very proud of his footwork because he had the audacity to sit in a tree and sing at me. I rubbed most of the footprints out with a piece of cinder block so I think it will be OK.

All this nature has a whole neighborhood to play in -- why do they have to hang out at my house?

Bill Robertson
#5939

[content22207_2]

Since the future availability of the mechanical fuel pumps for our engines appears to be questionable, I've been stocking up on them. The first two mechanical fuel pumps that I purchased were Sofabex. The third was the "Torino" unit that Bill pictured above. All three were repackaged as "Airtex 1436" units.

Pumps will likely still be available into the foreseeable future -- just not stocked by Autozone. It is possible they will one day need to be purchased from Europe.

I needed $49 to get free shipping, so I added one to my last Amazon order.

I'll post pics after I modify the Torino unit.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[content22207_2]

It was 4:30 by the time I returned the concrete pallet to Lowes so I didn't even try to go to UPS. I'll run Greg's and James' boxes over there tomorrow.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[The Aviator]

howdy howdy!! I haven't been on here in ages. took me about 20 minutes to crack my own password

I was curious if anyone has gone carbed with stage II cams? If so what are some key things to search for to read old threads with carbed Pvr's with cam upgrades?

where has time gone. glad to see everyone!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Jimmyd]

It was 4:30 by the time I returned the concrete pallet to Lowes so I didn't even try to go to UPS. I'll run Greg's and James' boxes over there tomorrow.

Bill Robertson
#5939

Thanks for the update Bill and thanks for all your hard work that went into the kits

[Pilot]

Thank you. Awesome

[Andrew]

howdy howdy!! I haven't been on here in ages. took me about 20 minutes to crack my own password

I was curious if anyone has gone carbed with stage II cams? If so what are some key things to search for to read old threads with carbed Pvr's with cam upgrades?

where has time gone. glad to see everyone!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
To the best of my knowledge, there are no carb conversions that have been combined with reground cams (either on a Stage 2 upgraded engine or otherwise) However, as opposed to a forced induction system, I don't see any reason why reground cams couldn't be added to a carbed DeLorean.

A number of months ago, I did some research on the upgraded cams and decided to defer the mod unless I ever need to remove the engine and or heads. Between the Peugeot carb system, Volvo distributor, HEI and headers, 5052 produces enough power to make me happy :-)

[content22207_2]

The world is full of hot rodders running cammed up (and high compression) carbureted engines. They are Jegs' and Summit's core constituency. Same with super charging. And nitrous.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[The Aviator]

The world is full of hot rodders running cammed up (and high compression) carbureted engines. They are Jegs' and Summit's core constituency. Same with super charging. And nitrous.

Bill Robertson
#5939

yes I know, what I should have said is has anyone put a 2100 on a stage 2 motor. I don't know if the 2100 is too small and if a 4 barrel would be required


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[Andrew]

yes I know, what I should have said is has anyone put a 2100 on a stage 2 motor. I don't know if the 2100 is too small and if a 4 barrel would be required


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I don't know of any carbed Stage 2 motors. However, it would certainly be a fun mod to make. The Stage 2 mods would not change the carb requirements, which are determined by displacement and maximum RPM. Hence the 2100 should work fine on a Stage 2 engine.

With regard to a 4bbl carb, the Holley 390 is a confirmed workable carb on the PRV engine. Specifically, JL Engineering specializes in modifying Renault Alpine A310 manifolds (same as a Peugeot 604 manifold) to eliminate the dual Solex carbs and replace it with a Holley 390. However, most other 4bbl carbs would be too large for the PRV. By the way, JL Engineering requires a core Alpine / Peugeot manifold and their kit only includes the carb and modifications to the manifold.

[content22207_2]

Biggest mistake people make is over carbureting their engines. In the case of a downdraft carburetor, all it knows is air passing through its venturis. That's what creates the pressure differential that makes carburetion possible in the first place. In the absence of forced induction or proper camshaft retiming, simply enlarging venturi size, or increasing their number, lowers airflow velocity, making the carburetor less efficient.

Irrespective, our little engines are only 174 cubic inches -- half the size of a Chevy 350. Even with forced induction there's no way they will ever come close to small block air flow, much less big block.

And they are low compression.

Carburetor pictures in Jegs and Summit are fun to look at, but I personally wouldn't consider putting a 4 barrel on a PRV.

The carburetors I provide are spec'd the same as 1970's 2.8 liter Mustang (Cologne V6). They are a good match to the PRV.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[content22207_2]

Greg's and James' conversions are in the mail. PM'd tracking numbers.

I'll get Steve's conversion boxed next week.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[MountainGoat]

Greg's and James' conversions are in the mail. PM'd tracking numbers.

I'll get Steve's conversion boxed next week.

Bill Robertson
#5939

Awesome! Sorry I've been quiet -- I must have missed my forum notification. I will PM you with address info and to arrange payment. Thanks!

[The Aviator]

thanks guys for the advice! I didn't know if the cams wouldn't work with the 2100

I was lucky enough to grab a 604 Intake many many years ago. it's just been sitting on the shelf. I'm slowly gathering performance parts and come back on here to learn more about the carb conversion.

my new goal is to buy a used PRV and rebuild the whole thing, ported heads, stage 2 cams, convert to carb and be done

glad to see everyone is still around with the carbs. I know we take a lot of heat for it but it's honestly my cheapest and easiest way out




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[content22207_2]

There is nothing magical about the 2100. It is an incredibly simple carburetor, with extremely few parts (replacements for which are readily available from multiple sources), but any suitably sized downdraft carb would work.

I like to use 2100's for my fabricated manifolds because their footprint fits the central plenum block perfectly. It's almost as though they were destined to be mated together (and size of the central plenum block can't be changed because it fits the elbows and runners perfectly). Everything fell right into place when I first started making manifolds in 2008, which is why I still use the same design to this day.

Peugeot 604 manifold is footprinted for Solex carburetors only (two of them -- one 1 barrel and one 2 barrel). Nothing else will bolt up without adapter plates(s). To the best of my knowledge there are no ready made adapter plates for Solex carburetors (I make my adapter plates myself -- they are custom units).

Bill Robertson
#5939

[Jimmyd]

There is nothing magical about the 2100. It is an incredibly simple carburetor, with extremely few parts (replacements for which are readily available from multiple sources), but any suitably sized downdraft carb would work.

I like to use 2100's for my fabricated manifolds because their footprint fits the central plenum block perfectly. It's almost as though they were destined to be mated together (and size of the central plenum block can't be changed because it fits the elbows and runners perfectly). Everything fell right into place when I first started making manifolds in 2008, which is why I still use the same design to this day.

Peugeot 604 manifold is footprinted for Solex carburetors only (two of them -- one 1 barrel and one 2 barrel). Nothing else will bolt up without adapter plates(s). To the best of my knowledge there are no ready made adapter plates for Solex carburetors (I make my adapter plates myself -- they are custom units).

Bill Robertson
#5939
Thanks again Bill

[Andrew]

There is nothing magical about the 2100. It is an incredibly simple carburetor, with extremely few parts (replacements for which are readily available from multiple sources), but any suitably sized downdraft carb would work.

I like to use 2100's for my fabricated manifolds because their footprint fits the central plenum block perfectly. It's almost as though they were destined to be mated together (and size of the central plenum block can't be changed because it fits the elbows and runners perfectly). Everything fell right into place when I first started making manifolds in 2008, which is why I still use the same design to this day.

Peugeot 604 manifold is footprinted for Solex carburetors only (two of them -- one 1 barrel and one 2 barrel). Nothing else will bolt up without adapter plates(s). To the best of my knowledge there are no ready made adapter plates for Solex carburetors (I make my adapter plates myself -- they are custom units).

Bill Robertson
#5939

Bill is correct, there are no commercially available adapter plates for the Peugeot manifolds. Furthermore I would say that the 2100 is the anthesis of the Solex setup found on the Peugeot manifolds. Specifically, the 2100s are simple to work on, easy to get parts for and well documented in automotive literature. In contrast, the Solex carbs are very difficult to tune and even more challenging to find parts for. One of the best Solex service manuals that I relied upon (with the help of Dustybarn) was a French shop manual for the Renault Alpine. I used Google to translate it to English.

While I was ultimately able to get my Solex system properly tuned, if I had to do it all over again, I would go with the 2100.

[content22207_2]

Irrespective of merits/demerits of any particular carburetor, when it comes to the Peugeot manifold a 2100 simply fits better.

This is a Solex footprint:

43439

Weber footprint overlaid on Solex (Rochester would be similar):

43440

Venturi's aren't the problem -- it's the rear mounting holes. There's no way to bolt a Solex adapter to the manifold and still have room to mount the rearmost Weber screws.

2100 footprint overlaid on Solex:

43441

2100 mounting holes are nowhere near the Solex holes. There is plenty of room for both, which is how I make my adapters:

43442 43443

Bill Robertson
#5939

[Drive Stainless]

2100 mounting holes are nowhere near the Solex holes. There is plenty of room for both, which is how I make my adapters:

43442 43443

Bill Robertson
#5939


When I look at that manifold, it seems like cylinders 1 & 4 are necessarily going to run richer than cylinders 3 & 6.

[content22207_2]

Kind of hard to tell how the adapter works looking straight down from above. Adapter bolts to the manifold using recessed socket head bolts in the original Solex mounting holes. 2100 mounts to the adapter on studs. Venturis are blended together within the thickness of the adapter.

43444

Bill Robertson
#5939

[content22207_2]

When I look at that manifold, it seems like cylinders 1 & 4 are necessarily going to run richer than cylinders 3 & 6.

Centralized fuel metering (*VERY* centralized -- there is a common plenum underneath the venturi openings). Carburetor meters fuel via air passing through its venturis. What happens to the mixture after than has no bearing on AFR.

No intake manifold has equal distance runners. Not even K-Jet -- air going into cylinders 3 and 6 travels a shorter distance than air going into cylinders 1 and 4.

Standard V8 manifolds:

43445

Again, mixture travels shorter distance to cylinders closest to the carburetor than to cylinders farther away (also notice crossover on the upper dual plane manifold -- because the PRV never fires the same side of the engine sequentially that thankfully wasn't a concern I had to worry about on my fabricated manifolds).

I assure you: carburetion works, even on a DeLorean.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[Drive Stainless]

Centralized fuel metering (*VERY* centralized -- there is a common plenum underneath the venturi openings). Carburetor meters fuel via air passing through its venturis. What happens to the mixture after than has no bearing on AFR.

No intake manifold has equal distance runners. Not even K-Jet -- air going into cylinders 3 and 6 travels a shorter distance than air going into cylinders 1 and 4.

Standard V8 manifolds:

43445

Again, mixture travels shorter distance to cylinders closest to the carburetor than to cylinders farther away (also notice crossover on the upper dual plane manifold -- because the PRV never fires the same side of the engine sequentially that thankfully wasn't a concern I had to worry about on my fabricated manifolds).

I assure you: carburetion works, even on a DeLorean.

Bill Robertson
#5939

With K-Jet, each cylinder gets the same fuel charge by multi-port injection. The distance from injector-->cylinder is the same for all cylinders.

You could test this hypothesis by farting at the next DMA event. Note that the folks sitting next to you will dry heave more forcefully than the folks at the other end of the dinner table. The (flatulent) mixture loses its potency as it travels a greater distance. Same would appear to apply in carburetion?

[content22207_2]

With a carburetor, each cylinder gets the same fuel mixture by virtue of pulling through the same venturi.

When you get right down to it, in terms of AFR, centralized fuel metering is more reliable than multiport injection -- certainly as K-Jet does it. If you have a badly performing injector, that cylinder will suffer AFR discrepancies not experienced by any other cylinders. There is no way for Lambda to tell which cylinder is having problems, so it monkeys with all of them -- 5 good cylinders now perform badly because Lambda is trying to compensate for one bad injector. That's why K-Jetters have to put their injectors in jars and visually inspect what's going on.

People love to Poo Poo carburetion, but I will take certainty of centralized fuel metering over mystery of six individual injectors any day.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[content22207_2]

Drive Stainless seems to misunderstand how carburetors meter fuel. All cylinders connected to a venturi pull air through a common location. Hence all cylinders receive the same fuel charge. You could have a cylinder at the front end of the car, and it would still receive the same fuel charge as a cylinder at the rear (atomized fuel could well fall out of suspension before reaching the front of the car, but the amount of fuel falling out of suspension would still be equal to fuel going into the rear cylinder). That is of course an extreme example -- fuel is not going to fall out of suspension in the short distances of a real world intake manifold.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[content22207_2]

Perhaps it would help to compare centralized fuel metering to the HVAC/Brake booster vacuum barb. HVAC vaccuum canister is at the rear of the car, brake booster vacuum canister is at the front of the car, but they both draw from the same vacuum barb, hence they both have the same vacuum inside.

A carburetor venturi works the same way: the same amount of fuel is metered through it, irrespective of where that fuel goes afterwards.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[content22207_2]

Please note: Peugeot 604/Renault Alpine cylinders pull through *TWO* carburetors at the same time.

Perhaps Andrew can provide more details (for example: is the throttle linkage progressive -- does it open throttle plates on one carburetor before opening them on the other)? I honestly don't know.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[Andrew]

Please note: Peugeot 604/Renault Alpine cylinders pull through *TWO* carburetors at the same time.

Perhaps Andrew can provide more details (for example: is the throttle linkage progressive -- does it open throttle plates on one carburetor before opening them on the other)? I honestly don't know.

Bill Robertson
#5939

The Solex throttle linkage itself is very similar to k-jet linkage. The throttle spool has linkage rods which connect to the single bbl Solex and the 2 bbl secondary Solex. The linkage rod from the spool to the secondaries doesn't move the throttle plates, rather it moves a rod which allows the vacuum diaphragm to open the throttle plates. It's an odd setup which uses gears, rods and a vacuum diaphragm.

[content22207_2]

2100 throttle linkage differs slightly:

43482

Bill Robertson
#5939

[DMCVegas]

With a carburetor, each cylinder gets the same fuel mixture by virtue of pulling through the same venturi.

When you get right down to it, in terms of AFR, centralized fuel metering is more reliable than multiport injection -- certainly as K-Jet does it. If you have a badly performing injector, that cylinder will suffer AFR discrepancies not experienced by any other cylinders. There is no way for Lambda to tell which cylinder is having problems, so it monkeys with all of them -- 5 good cylinders now perform badly because Lambda is trying to compensate for one bad injector. That's why K-Jetters have to put their injectors in jars and visually inspect what's going on.

People love to Poo Poo carburetion, but I will take certainty of centralized fuel metering over mystery of six individual injectors any day.

Bill Robertson
#5939

While there is a certain amount of truth to what you're saying, there is also a great deal of items you are also omitting as well taking completely out of context.

A malfunctioning injector itself is not the only way that a cylinder can fail to operate correctly, and a carburetor itself can in it's metering duties and mis-calibrate the AFR of ALL cylinders. Carburetors are hardly exempt from problems and can also fail in their metering duties, and thus create problems with the AFR for ALL cylinders as well. I cannot stress this enough. Otherwise you'd never need to rebuild and clean out carburetors at all.

In your scenario where a single cylinder malfunction can affect the AFR of all other cylinders, this is neither a problem that is inherent to K-Jetronic, nor exclusive to all other forms of Electronic Fuel Injection. In fact, it also is a problem with Carburetors too, including the Ford 2100 Series when they were paired with Ford's EEC System to control emissions. There is no difference in results when a single port injector malfunctions or a central one does with a carburetion or TPI for that matter. Especially when additional emissions systems are installed.

You see, EEC by Ford, just like LAMBDA by BOSCH (and others) were add-ons that measured the whole entire output of all cylinders at once in order to electronically adjust the AFR of the engine to fine-tune emissions. Just as LAMBDA could fluctuate the lower chamber pressures within the Fuel Distributor, EEC could reduce air flow into the Carburetor in order to lean out/enrich the mixture as necessary. Of course the difference is that Fuel Injection can work at more severe angles, under more severe thrust, and doesn't lean out at WOT. But that's another story...

Now you can argue that you do not incorporate EEC into your kits so it doesn't affect you. And that's fine. But if you do that, you must ALSO acknowledge the fact that K-Jetronic itself does not actually rely upon LAMBDA to function properly. It can be removed, and then your scenario of this being an inherent problem to K-Jetronic itself is an invalid one.

But more to the point, let us also be clear on the fact that Carburetion, Fuel Injection, and whatever forms these fuel delivery systems take on, nor whatever add-ons they contain are ALL going to be prone to failure if the person operating the vehicle doesn't take proper care of them, let alone if the person who installs/maintains them doesn't know what they're doing.

If fuel injection is a "mystery" to you, that can easily be rectified through learning, unless you outright refuse to. It might be a generational thing as well. I grew up around Fuel Injection and had to rely upon a good amount of Algebra to comprehend how control systems function. So I understand it, and I'm comfortable with complex management and feedback systems.

K-Jetronic itself, let alone all the other flavors of Fuel Injection are no more difficult to learn than Carburetors.

Whatever it takes to get a car back on the road, I'm all for it. If budget is a concern, I totally understand that too. If someone is just more comfortable with carburetors, that's perfectly fine as well. But whatever decision people make needs to be a properly informed one. That is all I want.

[content22207_2]

Can anyone else make it through one of Robert's 500 word diatribes without their eyes glazing over?

To owners buying Peugeot manifolds: I assure you, they work just fine. I test drove each one.

Nevertheless, should you later wish to swap it out for a fabricated manifold, I am willing to do that too (availability permitting). To date Steve Rice is the only person to have done that.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[content22207_2]

Steve already had a fabricated manifold -- he just decided to put it back on and sell me the Peugeot manifold.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[DMCVegas]

Can anyone else make it through one of Robert's 500 word diatribes without their eyes glazing over?

Attacking my posts simply because they once again prove your inaccuracies, and/or your lack of comprehension is not my problem. Although at least I am honest with my replies rather than fragmenting them across several posts merely as a way to fluff my own post count.

What is my problem however is your continual spreading of inaccuracies to damage the marque merely to benefit your own personal gain. I want people to enjoy their cars. The core of that happens through education about our cars to overcome and eliminate problems and prejudices. You are the complete antithesis of these efforts through your repeated, ignorant spreading of misinformation throughout the community as a way, akin to your post counts, to falsely fluff your self-importance up. Not just here (again), but on other sites as well. And you just keep burning bridges everywhere along the way.

You want to hock carb kits? That is perfectly fine. But every time you spread inaccurate information, I'm gonna throw it right back into your face and hold you accountable for it.

[content22207_2]

No misinformation. Just unvarnished truth.

In glorious black and white technicolor.

Drive Stainless thought intake runners on the Peugeot manifold would affect fuel metering. They don't, so I corrected him.

Then Robert piped up....

(BTW: the problem with Drive Stainless' fart example is he isn't farting in a vacuum. A fart dissipating through the room's atmosphere is somewhat analogous to an intake manifold with a vacuum leak. If your intake manifold isn't vacuum tight, then fuel metering will indeed be thrown off by outside air bypassing the venturis).

Probably best not to use fart analogies, but that's just my opinion.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[content22207_2]

FWIW: Steve Conley's conversion is #21 for other owners (#'s 22-24 are my own cars, including the Volvo).

Admittedly 24 carb conversions is less than a thousand, but it *IS* 24 more than Robert has done.

Even if I am the stupidest person on the face of the planet, from an empirical standpoint alone I have more experience in this area than Robert does.

Perhaps that counts for something?

In my own thread....

Bill Robertson
#5939

[Drive Stainless]

And Bill and I can disagree without being mean to one another. For example, I disagree by posting the following from Small-Block Chevy Performance 1955-1996, by John Baechtel.

Pages 103-104:

"In any wet manifold, the primary mission of the runner is to direct mixture flow toward the intake valve with minimal loss of velocity and minimal fuel drop out. If the runners are not equal length, the longer runners will deliver a leaner mixture since more fuel may drop out of suspension during the longer trip to the valve. This phenomenon is directly related to engine speed. As speed increases, this drop out problem becomes more acute, and distribution efficiency of a dual-plane design-which may be very good in low- and mid-RPM ranges-will often deteriorate and decrease overall efficiency at high RPM (generally above 6,000 rpm). On the other hand, the low-RPM and range qualities of a good dual-plane manifold, like factory designs, will usually produce improved acceleration in heavier cars with relatively high gearing."

(emphasis added)

I rest my case that a centrally-located carburetor is better than one located at a peripheral-end of the intake manifold.

[content22207_2]

Methinks Drive Stainless just volunteered himself to weld up some more home made intake manifolds (in lieu of those God Awful sand cast Peugeot manifolds).

Bill Robertson
#5939

[content22207_2]

Is the Peugeot manifold optimal? No, for a variety of reasons (for example I have to use early model 2100's with integrated choke pulloffs for distributor clearance). They also have no place to mount a throttle cable bracket, so I have to make a complicated assembly that hangs off the back of the adapter plate.

Does a Peugeot manifold work? Yes. At least two of them are in DeLorean service using their original dual Solex setups (BTW: one barrel carb enters the common plenum right in front of the two barrel venturis -- it doesn't feed cylinders directly adjacent to it), four of them are in service using my 2100 adaptation -- next week that number goes up to six -- and an owner with a foreign accent (whose name I can't remember -- I think he was from Georgia) brought a Holley equipped one to one of Darren Decker's gatherings.

I fully admit I prefer centrally located carburetors, so that's how I designed the intake manifolds I make myself (Volvo manifold on the left, fabricated on the right):

43501

Unfortunately Peugeot (and Renault) did not consult me before making their manifolds, so I have to work with what they came up with instead.

Greg and James had the option to choose fabricated manifolds. Supply permitting I am more than happy to swap them out later. But perhaps we should at least wait for the UPS boxes to show up before pronouncing judgment on their conversions.

I test drove both of them on my own car no problem, but there is rumor afoot that I don't know what I am doing....

Bill Robertson
#5939

[content22207_2]

an owner with a foreign accent (whose name I can't remember -- I think he was from Georgia) brought a Holley equipped one to one of Darren Decker's gatherings.

His name might have been Marcel.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[Andrew]

Is the Peugeot manifold optimal? No, for a variety of reasons (for example I have to use early model 2100's with integrated choke pulloffs for distributor clearance). They also have no place to mount a throttle cable bracket, so I have to make a complicated assembly that hangs off the back of the adapter plate.

Does a Peugeot manifold work? Yes. At least two of them are in DeLorean service using their original dual Solex setups (BTW: one barrel carb enters the common plenum right in front of the two barrel venturis -- it doesn't feed cylinders directly adjacent to it), four of them are in service using my 2100 adaptation -- next week that number goes up to six -- and an owner with a foreign accent (whose name I can't remember -- I think he was from Georgia) brought a Holley equipped one to one of Darren Decker's gatherings.

I fully admit I prefer centrally located carburetors, so that's how I designed the intake manifolds I make myself (Volvo manifold on the left, fabricated on the right):

43501

Unfortunately Peugeot (and Renault) did not consult me before making their manifolds, so I have to work with what they came up with instead.

Greg and James had the option to choose fabricated manifolds. Supply permitting I am more than happy to swap them out later. But perhaps we should at least wait for the UPS boxes to show up before pronouncing judgment on their conversions.

I test drove both of them on my own car no problem, but there is rumor afoot that I don't know what I am doing....

Bill Robertson
#5939

I can attest to the fact that the Peugeot manifolds work. Actually I think there are 3 Solex systems in operation,mine and 2 others. The biggest drawback to the Peugeot system are the Solex carbs themselves, not the manifolds. This is why many 604 and Alpine A310 owners have opted to replace the Solex system with a 2bbl Weber or 4 bbl Holley 390 in place of the 2 bbl Solex. Like your 2100 conversions, the Weber and Holley conversions all entail blocking off the single bbl opening.

[content22207_2]

This is how a Peugeot manifold is laid out internally:

43506 43505

Everybody's all "Ooo Ooo" over long intake runners -- for cylinders 1 and 4 (Peugeot orientation is 1 barrel to the rear) mixture travels the length of the manifold, makes a U turn, then runs all the way back the other direction.

Mesmerizes me that forum members who complain loudest about carburetion don't even use it. They're like virgins stamping their feet and insisting that sex is no good.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[content22207_2]

This is why many 604 and Alpine A310 owners have opted to replace the Solex system with a 2bbl Weber

In the old .com days an owner named Del Silviera had a DeLorean with a Peugeot manifold and a Weber adapter plate welded on. He never could get the Weber to perform correctly. I made him a Weber to 2100 adapter plate and rebuilt a 2100 for him. When he eventually sold the car he reported that the common Ford carburetor was a positive selling point (he lived in remote British Columbia).

Bill Robertson
#5939

[The Aviator]

hey bill, can you post some pictures of how you plug the stock injector holes?

my plan is to find a donor engine and rebuild it. while the heads are off ( or I buy stage 2 heads) I was thinking of threading the injector ports and plugging them with a threaded plug. I do this on the vacuum port on the back of the 302's

I don't know if there's enough meat to thread the ports. and I remember you had a way of plugging them but forgot exactly what and how you did it

mind sharing some pics of your technique?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[content22207_2]

http://www.gulfcoastdeloreans.com/images/K-Jetectomy%20July%2010%202010/P7107735.jpg

It's a very tight fit -- you have to use a socket and extension to press them in.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[The Aviator]

aaahh so the bolt threads in like the injector?!


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[Lou and "Boo"]

No, they just press in. From what I remember, it's just the shank of the bolt, no thread.

Mine were fairly easy to push in, just pressed in with my finger.

[The Aviator]

No, they just press in. From what I remember, it's just the shank of the bolt, no thread.

Mine were fairly easy to push in, just pressed in with my finger.

and that washer has little arms on then "locking" then onto the lip of the port?.


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[Lou and "Boo"]

Pretty sure the injectors didn't screw in either. But it's been a long time.

[Lou and "Boo"]

From what I remember, those little metal clips don't really hold much. They might even be from the original injector part. That's why they look rusty in the pic. Mine are the same exact way.

BTW: My car is a beast again now that the power valve (full throttle enrichment valve) is re-installed. No more falling on face, just all go, go, go!

Back to having the fastest naturally aspirated PRV Delorean.


Point of order: all I asked from Bill was information but he flipped out when after ignoring my questions, I asked the same questions in public.

Robert is right on in his writings. It's not Bill's product that's bad (although I cannot attest to his new welder) it's Bills arrogant snide personality. But whatever, I'm out of it all now.
"Crazy ex-girlfriend" signing off !! Peace out Billy boy !
;)

[content22207_2]

mind sharing some pics of your technique?

The injector plugs I provide depend upon good condition injector boots. If your injector boots are damaged or worn out, they won't properly seal anything, be it a plug or an injector.

End users are responsible for their own injector boots.

I have absolutely no control over anyone else's injector boots.

If in doubt, just buy a replacement set from a vendor of choice.

Makes absolutely no sense to reimburse me more than a thousand dollars for carb conversion components (material cost only -- my labor is gratis, even for the ungrateful), then cheap out over an $18 set of injector boots.

If your injector boots are worn out, please don't cry or complain to me -- I have no control over that whatsoever. Would be like blaming me because you haven't taken responsibility to brush your own teeth and now your breath stinks and your teeth are falling out.

I only have control over components purchased or manufactured on owners' behalf -- nothing else.

Injector plugs are provided on the assumption end users have already taken responsibility for their injector boots while still K-Jetted.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[Lou and "Boo"]

The only one "crying" here is you Bill. Always has been, always will be. I was just answering a question and stating that my plugs didn't need to be "pressed in with a socket and extension" as you claimed. Maybe new buyers would rather hear truth and get specific detailed explanations instead of you pulling the "look at me" card by claiming people are blaming you all the time. Give it a break son. People don't want to buy mechanical parts from a petulant child such as yourself.

That'll do donkey, that'll do.
Now you can garnish more selfish attention by telling me I need to calm down. :rolleyes:

[content22207_2]

It would be helpful if everyone posting to this thread kept their comments on topic. Additional threads can be created for posts that are off topic.

If owners ever claim to have the fastest DeLorean on the face of the planet, then prima facie their carb conversions are working correctly.

For example: "I have the fastest naturally aspirated PRV Delorean", or similar.

In such instance comments of appreciation would be appropriate.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[Lou and "Boo"]

I am keeping comments to the topic. Helping a person with the injector plug question you ignored. Why don't you READ my posts before making asinine comments?


Don't look a gift horse in the mouth Billy boy.


I stated that the conversions were mechanically fine it's the vendor who isn't "mechanically" fine. You have proven yourself to be a total ass many times for many, many years here Bill. No argument there.

Not being a "crazy ex-girlfriend" just being honest and helpful to the carb community. My conversion DOES work properly, despite your efforts to thwart that.

[content22207_2]

UPS website shows James' box out for delivery today.

Greg's box is still scheduled for delivery tomorrow.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[content22207_2]

Greg and James have already been PM'd more than a dozen annotated setup pics like this:

43539

Bill Robertson
#5939

[Drive Stainless]

BTW: My car is a beast again now that the power valve (full throttle enrichment valve) is re-installed. No more falling on face, just all go, go, go!



How did you determine the power valve was bad, Lou?

[The Aviator]

thanks guys! Bill I didn't know you used the same boots over. I am just going to order new ones, as for the clips are those the stock injector clips as well? do the clips come in your kit or do we supply them too?

I'm going to have to look up how the favored injectors are attached.. I thought they screwed into those ports it's been so long since I removed them


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[Drive Stainless]

You have proven yourself to be a total ass many times for many, many years here Bill. No argument there.


But didn't Bill thoughtfully reach out to make sure you and your family were OK after Hurricane Sandy?

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/dmcnews/conversations/topics/86399

[Lou and "Boo"]

How did you determine the power valve was bad, Lou?

Wasn't bad, just non-existent.

why do you ask MattDavid? You know the background story....

[Drive Stainless]

Wasn't bad, just non-existent.

why do you ask MattDavid? You know the background story....

So Bill shipped you *two* carburetors without a necessary component?

[content22207_2]

Greg and James have already been PM'd more than a dozen annotated setup pics like this:

43539

Just so everyone's clear: us carb guys are running traditional PCV valves (we don't just attached the oil filler cap directly to the carburetor):

43540

Bill Robertson
#5939

[content22207_2]

So Bill shipped you *two* carburetors without a necessary component?

That is incorrect. Louis was shipped two carburetors, rebuilt, test driven on my own car.

A full throttle enrichment blockoff plug was shipped separately to see if that would help his high RPM miss. It didn't (Allstate Carburetor sells blockoff plugs -- circle track racers use them: http://www.allcarbs.com/detail.php?pid=339&gb=1&ctgn=39&stt=0 Holley and Ford power valves are interchangeable).

Personally I think Louis damaged something on the ignition side during the extended period of time he was running 20 plus volts through it.

Of course I also am rumored to be dumber than dirt, so factor that into my amateur analysis.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[content22207_2]

http://www.allcarbs.com/detail.php?pid=339&gb=1&ctgn=39&stt=0

Louis lives about 20 miles from Allstate Carburetors. They could be a valuable resource for him.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[Drive Stainless]

That is incorrect. Louis was shipped two carburetors, rebuilt, test driven on my own car.

A full throttle enrichment blockoff plug was shipped separately to see if that would help his high RPM miss. It didn't (Allstate Carburetor sells blockoff plugs -- circle track racers use them: http://www.allcarbs.com/detail.php?pid=339&gb=1&ctgn=39&stt=0 Holley and Ford power valves are interchangeable).

Personally I think Louis damaged something on the ignition side during the extended period of time he was running 20 plus volts through it.

Of course I also am rumored to be dumber than dirt, so factor that into my amateur analysis.

Bill Robertson
#5939

I know from talking with Lou that he has been having a problem with his car not running correctly for at least several months. That problem appears to have been resolved through the addition of a "power valve" that did not exist on his car previously. I would like to give him the opportunity to fully explain what he did.

[Lou and "Boo"]

Bill never shipped me any power valve separately. He is just trying to make himself the martyr.

The second carb Bill sent had the power valve plugged by Bill as he thought flooding was the causneof my high rpm cut out (which prob was ignition)

I took the power valve from the first carb (with the stripped jet threads) and put it in the second carb and took the plug form the second carb and put it in the carb with the stripped threads and returned it to Bill.

My car now runs like it should, super fast and responsive. Fastest Delorean I've ever driven.

As I was trying to figure out the issue by emailing Bill. I was being ignored so I asked about the issue in Today publicly and Bill went insane. End of story.rhe power Valve is very much needed or the car will fall omits face with lean drop as soon as the butterflys open. It was as simple as one carb having the valve plugged and the other having it in place and active.

That's the story you already knew about, read about, harassed me through PMs about, and commented about MattDavid.

I understand your involvement with Bill's product make you feel obligated to "have his back" but this is a cut and dry story. And yes, it does show that Bill does supply a good product. I have never claimed differently. There are certain trial and error nuances but Bill's reluctance to help offer information and then his blatant insults once I had no other choice than to aks publicly shows him to be the ass we all know him to be. It all could
Have been avoided if Bill wasn't the petulant child he makes everyone else out to be. Basically, Bill cut off his nose to spite his face. Oh well...

[Lou and "Boo"]

But didn't Bill thoughtfully reach out to make sure you and your family were OK after Hurricane Sandy?

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/dmcnews/conversations/topics/86399

Yes, Bill seemed like he actually cared about me. That is, until I hurt his feelings by asking publicly how I can remedy my carb issue. Then HE went off the deep end and started making false claims about me selling parts to Chad and all the B-S he slung using the name "Speaking the truth" on Today. Typical childish behavior of Bill's. I can't just wait for Bill to respond after months of being ignored.

I attempted to make amends but he continued his BS online. For such a religious Godly person, he sure don't forgive none.

"In desperate need of a little more religion to nurse your God-like point of view" -S. Hoon

[Drive Stainless]

Wasn't bad, just non-existent.




Bill never shipped me any power valve separately. He is just trying to make himself the martyr.

The second carb Bill sent had the power valve plugged by Bill as he thought flooding was the causneof my high rpm cut out (which prob was ignition)

I took the power valve from the first carb (with the stripped jet threads) and put it in the second carb and took the plug form the second carb and put it in the carb with the stripped threads and returned it to Bill.

My car now runs like it should, super fast and responsive. Fastest Delorean I've ever driven.



What I think you're saying is that Bill sent you two carburetors, the first having the power valve and the second, in an attempt to help diagnose your problem, with a "plug" where the power valve would otherwise be installed. You took the power valve from carburetor #1 and installed it into carburetor #2. Now your car runs correctly. Do I have this right?

[Lou and "Boo"]

I can only speak as to my experience with Bill. And although my inbox is filled with information from other owners who also were screwed by Bill, it is not my place to voice thier experiences. It's not worth posting here about the negative experiences with Bill when all he does is lie and make up false stories about people.

Now MattDavid, you have the story lest you believe it. (Brainwashed by Bill)

[Lou and "Boo"]

Louis lives about 20 miles from Allstate Carburetors. They could be a valuable resource for him.

Bill Robertson
#5939

As Bill is NOT a valuable resource, unless you kiss his ass (like many do), put up with his insults, and wait months for responses.

But I am just a Bad Apple, so what do I know? I know Bill, that's for sure.

[Andrew]

People need to learn to let stuff go. Kudos to Bill for not taking the bait of others. I've never bought any products from Bill, but I appreciate the information that he has shared with the DeLorean community. I've also incorporated a few of his ideas on my DeLoreans, including, but not limited to the vibration reducing steering joint, the single piece headliner and AMC clutch master. To his credit, Bill posts his ideas on a public forum, so nobody needs to kiss his ass to utilize any of the info / ideas he provides. I've done the same thing with the mechanical fuel pump option and the ignition lock cylinder cross reference.

As a DeLorean owner I appreciate anyone who provides information and ideas to the community. I especially appreciate ideas that can eliminate K-Jet without the cost and complexity associated with EFI. And I certainly appreciate the fact that Bill has taken time to design, build and test these carb conversions for owners who want them. I certainly don't have the time to do the same!

[Lou and "Boo"]

I have always stated that I appreciate Bill's mechanical knowledge and contributions.

What nobody appreciates is the bullshit he insists to include. But I hear ya Andrew. And as I've said many times, I tried to make amends and put the past in the past. Bill and Matt keep re-hashing the negative behaviors they have displayed in the past.

I have already moved on in a gracious manner. As you can see, I've assisted a new owner with a fuel injector boot question. (Only to be ridiculed by Bill who now claims I am blaming
Him for something that's not a problem at all.) Keep playing the victim Bill. You ARE good at it. This is and never was "bait"before anyone. Just me telling the honest experience I had.

[content22207_2]

Just used the DeLorean w/ Steve Conley's conversion still installed to run a bunch of errands. I think I am ready to sign off on it (every conversion gets test driven on my own car).

Summer Camp starts in earnest Friday afternoon (this week is staff training -- only have to drive a couple of trips), so I will get Steve's conversion over to UPS for boxing before the weekend.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[content22207_2]

UPS is showing a missed delivery at James' house. Guess in New York they don't leave boxes on the front porch.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[MountainGoat]

Just used the DeLorean w/ Steve Conley's conversion still installed to run a bunch of errands. I think I am ready to sign off on it (every conversion gets test driven on my own car).

Summer Camp starts in earnest Friday afternoon (this week is staff training -- only have to drive a couple of trips), so I will get Steve's conversion over to UPS for boxing before the weekend.

Bill Robertson
#5939

Cool! Looking forward to it!! :)

[Lou and "Boo"]

UPS is showing a missed delivery at James' house. Guess in New York they don't leave boxes on the front porch.

Bill Robertson
#5939



Yeah, they usually don't. Life isn't all duckies and bunnies here in NY.

[Farrar]

Back in 2011, I noticed that #2613's engine was developing vacuum leaks at the injector bungs. Since the clips were rusty/bent and the rubber was dry-rotting, I went against the grain and bought silicone taper plugs from McMaster to plug the injector holes. (P/N 9277K82) A pack of 25 plugs cost less than replacement injector boots and clips.

The silicone plugs didn't fit as tightly as Bill's solution, but I did confirm that they were vacuum-tight.

43547

[Soundkillr]

I have cleaned this thread SOME. Before someone starts crying about being singled out, I'd like to point out it would be difficult to clean it all up at this point. (I have tried to avoid even commenting in this thread) If it was up to me this would have been closed a long time ago, but Bill (for the most part) has done a decent job of avoiding a fight. What I ask to stop though, is mis information about carbing, including claims it would be more fire resistant than kjet. Spreading mis information is no good for anyone. Carbing is simply left up to preference. Case in point, I know many old school tuners that swore by carburetors, and once figured out FI will never go back. That said, leave your battle swords at home. Keep it civil from here out.

[Lou and "Boo"]

Although my whole explanation of how my carb issue was remedied was deleted, I do apologize for letting things get out of hand. In summary, you need a power valve installed or the car will fall on its face at takeoff(with Peugeot manifold)

So if we can get back on topic here....Wondering what kind of issue was noticed that the loose injector boots caused.

[content22207_2]

claims it would be more fire resistant than kjet

Whether or not they are more fire resistant, two facts about carbureted fuel lines are indisputable:
1) Carbureted fuel lines run at very low pressure (4-6 PSI). K-Jet fuel lines run at very high pressure (75 PSI). Hence leaks in carbureted fuel lines spray less fuel/less far than leaks in K-Jet fuel lines.
2) Even in carbureted systems with check valves (ie: electric pumps I provide have check valves), rest pressure is minimal -- a leak will dissipate rest pressure much more quickly after de-energizing the pump than K-Jet. Note that if the needle valve is open at the time pump is de-energized there won't be any rest pressure.

I happen to like carburetion's lower line pressures for a variety of reasons, including wear & tear, but other owners may not.

Note that the above applies to DeLoreans only. In other carbureted applications, such as push lawn mowers, line pressure is usually provided by gravity alone (virtually no PSI).

Bill Robertson
#5939

[Soundkillr]

And I offer this even more simple fact, a fuel leak is a fuel leak. No matter the pressure, it is not a good thing, and can result in anything burning to the ground. Engineers design cars so they don't have fuel leaks. Age or improper installation can do ANYTHING.
It's obvious you like carburetors, and it's great that it works for you. Again, all comes down to preference. Leave it at that.


Whether or not they are more fire resistant, two facts about carbureted fuel lines are indisputable:
1) Carbureted fuel lines run at very low pressure (4-6 PSI). K-Jet fuel lines run at very high pressure (75 PSI). Hence leaks in carbureted fuel lines spray less fuel/less far than leaks in K-Jet fuel lines.
2) Even in carbureted systems with check valves (ie: electric pumps I provide have check valves), rest pressure is minimal -- a leak will dissipate rest pressure much more quickly after de-energizing the pump than K-Jet. Note that if the needle valve is open at the time pump is de-energized there won't be any rest pressure.

I happen to like carburetion's lower line pressures for a variety of reasons, including wear & tear, but other owners may not.

Note that the above applies to DeLoreans only. In other carbureted applications, such as push lawn mowers, line pressure is usually provided by gravity alone (virtually no PSI).

Bill Robertson
#5939

[content22207_2]

In my case it's more than preference -- my heads have no injector bungs, so I couldn't run multiport injection even if I wanted to.

I could run TBI, but IMHO there's no real difference between a throttle body injector and a carburetor (for example, the recent dustup over fuel falling out of suspension applies equally to TBI and carburetion).

Bill Robertson
#5939

[Lou and "Boo"]

Seems my carb explanation (power valve) is back up or wasn't taken down in the first place. Thank you again!

[The Aviator]

Although my whole explanation of how my carb issue was remedied was deleted, I do apologize for letting things get out of hand. In summary, you need a power valve installed or the car will fall on its face at takeoff(with Peugeot manifold)

So if we can get back on topic here....Wondering what kind of issue was noticed that the loose injector boots caused.

that's the only thing I don't care for too much with the carb conversion. if I am going to have another motor to rebuild and keep my stock one stock, I don't see the harm in tapping the injector ports and plugging them with a threaded plug. IF there is enough meat in the ports to do so

i was also wondering if I could machine a plug and press the plug into the port...


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[Lou and "Boo"]

Bill's bolt shaft plugs are just like a machined plug you may "make ". They would both need the rubber boots to make a vacuum seal though. I think Bill's plugs are good, I may just need to replace the injector boots and clips IF there's a vac leak there.

But I don't THINK I have any engine issues that would suggest a vac leak. What specifically would I look for?

[Rich_NYS]

I want to know what a power valve is...

[Drive Stainless]

I want to know what a power valve is...

From: http://street2mud.com/webfiles/MC-2100%20set%20up%20for%20a%20258.pdf

Power Enrichment System
During heavy load conditions or
high speed operation, the fuel-air ratio
must be increased for higher engine
output. The power enrichment system
supplies extra fuel during this period
and is controlled by intake manifold
vacuum (Fig. 7).
Manifold vacuum is applied to the
power valve diaphragm from an opening
in the base of the main body,
through a passage in the main body
and power valve chamber to the power
valve diaphragm. During idle and
normal driving conditions, manifold
vacuum is high enough to overcome the
power valve spring tension and hold
the valve closed. When higher engine
output is required, the increased load
on the engine results in decreased
manifold vacuum. The power valve
spring opens the power valve when
manifold vacuum drops below a predetermined
value. Fuel flows from the
fuel bowl through the power valve and
into passages leading to the main
wells. At the main wells, this fuel is
added to the fuel in the main metering
system to enrichen the mixture.
As engine load requirements decrease,
manifold vacuum increases and
overcomes the tension of the power
valve spring, closing the power valve.

[Lou and "Boo"]

Power valve is what Bill calls a full throttle enrichment valve. Basically it screws in under the fuel bowl and when a certain vac pressure is exerted by the metered air flow through the the ventures, it opens to supply more fuel.

It is a stock part of the carb. But can be plugged if someone is having rich/flooding issues.

My car with the Peugeot manifold fell on its face and had no acceleration (had to lightly feather the gas pedal to accellerate and not buck) with that valve removed and plugged. With the power valve in place and operational, my car just looks like a shiny silver blur flying past you in the left lane (or even the right if I feel daring enough).

[Lou and "Boo"]

Matt is a FAST typer!!

He posted a more complete answer before I could even finish typing my half ass answer.

NICE !! :)


I like how the passage he posted talks about me
And my car specifically.

My car is always in "high speed operation"
and I am the "heavy load condition"


LOL ;)

[content22207_2]

I want to know what a power valve is...

Full throttle enrichment valve. Page 4-3-3 of the AMC manual (also under "Enrichment System" in the Bubba pages): http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?13726-Motorcraft-2100-2150-Theory-of-Operation

Louis had a bad engine miss/stumble at upper RPM's. He was convinced it was fuel related (common reaction among people who don't know or understand their carburetor -- it's a mystery box on top of the engine so whenever something goes wrong they reflexively assume the mystery box is to blame). Since the main metering jets obviously don't change from idle all the way through WOT, if Louis was at all correct (fuel related) the full throttle enrichment valve was the only thing it could be. That's why I sent him a blockoff plug, to take it out of the loop. Obviously Louis was wrong.

Personally I think Louis' problem is ignition related. When I first met him he was running an alternator with a generic external regulator that had gone bad. Thing was putting out more than 20 volts. Dash gauge was all in the red. Louis waited at least a year to replace it (but kept driving the car in the interim). No telling what kind of damage he could have done on the ignition side during that time. Perhaps Dave McKeen can speculate. All I know is when a dash gauge reads red, it's probably a good idea to stop driving the car. Red means stop.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[content22207_2]

when a certain vac pressure is exerted by the metered air flow through the the ventures

Incorrect.

Full throttle enrichment valve is plumbed into the carb base, not the venturis. It responds to manifold vacuum *BELOW* the throttle plates. Full throttle enrichment valve literally is as far removed from the venturis as physically possible.

Venturis are *ABOVE* the throttle plates. They have a very important job to do, but it isn't manifold vacuum.

May I humbly suggest Louis read and study documents in this thread: http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?13726-Motorcraft-2100-2150-Theory-of-Operation

That thread should be required reading for any owner carbureting his DeLorean. Just sticking a mystery box on top of the engine without understanding what it is or how it works is not a solid foundation for future success.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[Lou and "Boo"]

Correction: Bill test drove my car and felt it may have been the power valve as I had no idea. He sent me a carb with a plugged valve to test out and becaus the first cArb had stripped her threads..

We went over this all already. Nobody was blaming Bill, Bill never sent a valve to me. But hendisndontheae things in good intent which I never argued.

Bill chambers the facts to make himself look like a victim, as usual.

Anyway, it was the valve that made the difference. I agree the high end cut out was prob ignition related, as I previously stated.

[content22207_2]

Every carburetor I have ever rebuilt has been test driven on my own car.

My DeLorean may be dirty and needs to be vacuumed, but it is in top mechanical condition.

If an owner's car is in similar mechanical condition, he can expect a carburetor to perform similarly. Can I hear an "Amen" from nearly every owner I have ever assisted.

If an owner's car is not in good mechanical condition, I can not be held responsible for any problems he may experience, carburetor or otherwise.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[DMCVegas]

Whether or not they are more fire resistant, two facts about carbureted fuel lines are indisputable:
1) Carbureted fuel lines run at very low pressure (4-6 PSI). K-Jet fuel lines run at very high pressure (75 PSI). Hence leaks in carbureted fuel lines spray less fuel/less far than leaks in K-Jet fuel lines.
2) Even in carbureted systems with check valves (ie: electric pumps I provide have check valves), rest pressure is minimal -- a leak will dissipate rest pressure much more quickly after de-energizing the pump than K-Jet. Note that if the needle valve is open at the time pump is de-energized there won't be any rest pressure.

Actually, you are once again incorrect.

The idea that Carburetors are somehow "safer" than Fuel Injection because of the PSI rates which they operate. That is grossly inaccurate on so many levels. Whether this is due to a lack of understanding on your part, Bill, or an outright desire to lie in order to simply place a favorable spin on your pro-carb stance to sell more kits, I could not say for certain. But you ARE positively wrong, and passing incorrect knowledge along to others which can potentially destroy their cars and cause physical harm.

Your "facts" are indeed quite disputable because they're totally wrong.

Firstly is the fact that PSI has nothing at all to do with fuel flow. K-Jetronic uses higher pressures in order to facilitate it's internal hydraulic operations. This is why it is colloquially referred to as Mechanical Fuel Injection. The pressures themselves have positively nothing at all to do with the amount of fuel the engine consumes, and thus demands and has delivered from the fuel tank. That kind of measurement would have to be made using a comparison of the fuel pumps GPH Rating, or Gallons Per Hour. Confusing the two through a lack of understanding is akin to those eBay hucksters who sell bathroom exhaust fans as "e-supercharges" based off of CFM rather than PSI, and also use the same fallacious logic which you currently employ to prove their points too. So please get your engineering and mathematics correct before you start making such accusations.

Second is the truth that gasoline is in itself in non-fuel applications nothing more than an accelerant when it comes to fires. As Soundkillr correctly pointed out, "...a fuel leak is a fuel leak", and this is a positively true statement. ANY amount of gasoline leaking out is a bad thing, and simply having less, no matter what the amount, doesn't mitigate any more risk. The reason again is because as previously stated, gasoline is an accelerant. Or to put it into Laymen's Terms, Gasoline starts the engine fire, but the car itself then becomes the fuel and no longer relies upon gasoline to keep the fire going. It works like this:


There are multiple flammable items in any given engine compartment. Fuel lines, intake hoses, wires, air filters, air hoses, trim pieces, fiberglass, etc.
While flammable, these items never catch fire because the operating temperatures of the engine compartment never reach a sufficient enough temperature to reach their flash points. The majority of heat is expelled through the exhaust, and the smaller, focused remainder through the cooling system.
Gasoline has a very LOW flash point, but is also isolated from exposed oxygen, and it's ignition is controlled by the fuel delivery system and ultimately caused by the spark plugs inside of the combustion chamber.
Once gasoline escapes, it can hit things such as the exhaust system, which since it is heated by burned fuel, is above the flash point of gasoline and can start the fire.
Once gasoline gets ignited and burns, it's flame then becomes hot enough to ignite other components inside of the engine compartment because the burning gasoline fire is now hot enough to exceed the flash points of those other items.
Now that we have an engine fire, the car itself has now become the fuel, and even if we shut the gasoline supply off, the the car itself is now the fuel source.


Once a car catches fire and becomes the fuel, the gasoline no longer figures into the equation. It doesn't matter WHAT the flow rates, nor especially the PSI was: The car is on fire.

Your stance that Carburetors are safer than K-Jetronic is not only wrong, but you're placing people's lives in jeopardy through your spreading of the incorrect information. Lower fuel pressures do NOT mean a decreased risk for fire, and no one should EVER consider a carburetor as a safety measure of any sort. Giving people such a false sense of security and jeopardizing their lives so you can win an internet argument is morally wrong.

In fact, a carburetor is actually far more dangerous. Aside from the backfiring we've seen, the big problem is that when a Fuel Injection system gums-up, an engine just doesn't run right, or perhaps even at all depending upon the problem. But carburetors can get their floats stuck in the open position, flood, and just pour gasoline out and, surprise surprise, start a fire.

[content22207_2]

May I humbly suggest that Robert never carburete his DeLorean.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[DMCVegas]

May I humbly suggest Louis read and study documents in this thread: http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?13726-Motorcraft-2100-2150-Theory-of-Operation

That thread should be required reading for any owner carbureting his DeLorean. Just sticking a mystery box on top of the engine without understanding what it is or how it works is not a solid foundation for future success.

Bill Robertson
#5939

Gee whiz, Bill. Aren't you the same person that when I said people need documentation and should educated, you derided such a statement and ridiculed me for not being smart enough to know how to install or tune a carb?

But now you're actually trying to advocate people to become educated instead of making fun of them. You trying now to backpedal and cover your ass?

Maybe you just need some coffee to clear your head.

https://marc5solas.files.wordpress.com/2013/03/screen-shot-2013-03-22-at-1-27-22-pm.png

[Lou and "Boo"]

Whatever , who cares who diagnosed what anymore?

Fact is that the Peugeot with the 2100 needs that power valve, which Bill will supply in his carbs so no worries.

I was incorrect about the vacuum or lack of vacuum opening the valve. I admit I'm not a mechanic and I don't know the exacts of its operation but I do know the jist of how it works and the fact that it does work and it works GOOD baby... :)

Oh and who knew that 18 volts is more than 20 volts?!? Anyway DOESNT MATTER.

Peace Bill, Peace Matt.

Let's move on boys !

:)

The only part of my fuel delivery I worry about is my fuel pump going bad. I like Bill's idea of the flow through electric pump and using the mechanical
Pump. Haven't had a problem yet but the pump may leave me stranded someday.

[content22207_2]

Gee whiz, Bill. Aren't you the same person that when I said people need documentation and should educated, you derided such a statement and ridiculed me for not being smart enough to know how to install or tune a carb?

Grow up.

Other than my setup and tuning post, everything posted in that thread was written 10-40 years ago. It's been public record for nearly half a century. I found it easily enough, as have millions of other people. If you are too damn lazy to do your own research, that's your problem, not mine.

Both you and Louis are very disruptive presences in this thread. Is that really your motivation -- to cause trouble?

May I humbly suggest you start your own thread in which to bitch and complain, rather than polluting this one.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[Lou and "Boo"]

Hello?!? I've been helping answer questions re: injector plugs.

Aside from taking Matt's bait I have made it extremely clear to anyone who actually reads my posts that I am not picking at you Bill, but rather helping by offering info.
I understand my understanding of the power valve was not technically 100% but it's useful information about a problem that affected my carb's performance. I would think you would want to share such information and experience, no?

Maybe not unless you are getting 100% attention.

Bill, YOU need to put the past behind you and move on in any gracious manner you can. I am not out to cause harm to you or foul you in anyway. Our past may have gone sour and I have explained exactly why. The question is, Why can't you move on and put the past away? I don't really care why but you need to stop. You erroneously change details of the experience to be in your favor but who cares anymore ! Let's be men and move on shall we? I think all the mods here would agree to that. I don't see why you won't.

[DMCVegas]

You inability to deal with being corrected on your numerous inaccuracies is not my problem in the least. Nor is it anyone else's.

And as I warned you a very long time ago, if you're going to start supplying a product to the community like a vendor, you are going to have to endure the challenges of one. One of those very challenges is criticism of your product, as well as your business practices. It is something that every single vendor has had to go through, and is a part of doing business. Regardless of what your cash flow situation is. Now I don't know Lou in the least, but he is expressing his experiences with both you as a supplier of the product as well as your support for said product. That indeed is something which is valuable to the community in order to help others make informed decisions.

Furthermore, when it comes to you and I (let alone other people), you have been nothing rude and unprofessional. You make make statements which have proven to be within a wide spectrum of inaccuracies. Each time you have ignored them and chosen to engage in an abusive pattern of attacking both the car, the marque, and even myself, including name calling. And this goes quite far beyond just this thread alone. Your actions and behavior have been this way in many different threads, across different discussion boards, over the course of many years.

Further proof of your ignoring of whatever facts do no suit you is right there in your latest post. You want to know what my motivation is? It has remained unwavering from any of the numerous times before I have reiterated it again and again. I am protecting the marque and members of it from misinformation and attacks on us and the cars. Both of which YOU are a repeated source of, and seek personal gain from. You keep posting incorrect, and dangerous information in this thread, and I'm going to be right here challenging and correcting you as necessary.

[content22207_2]

May I humbly suggest Robert add me to his "ignore" list.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[DMCVegas]

May I humbly suggest Robert add me to his "ignore" list.

Bill Robertson
#5939

Ignoring you defaming our cars and putting other people at risk is not an option.

[content22207_2]

Dude:

It is patently obvious that the things I write upset you.

Logical response would be to stop reading them.

If you persist reading things that upset you, you have no one to blame but yourself.

It's like sticking a needle in your eye, complaining that it hurts, then sticking it right back in again.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[content22207_2]

It should also be patently obvious that your ideas and opinions bear absolutely no weight with me.

You could write a library of diatribes, and I still wouldn't give them any credence.

(And to be perfectly fair, you feel the same way about me).

I would appreciate it if you would take your ideas and opinions to your own thread, rather than making a mess all over mine. That would be the polite thing to do.

I don't pollute your threads, please don't pollute mine.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[The Aviator]

Incorrect.

Full throttle enrichment valve is plumbed into the carb base, not the venturis. It responds to manifold vacuum *BELOW* the throttle plates. Full throttle enrichment valve literally is as far removed from the venturis as physically possible.

Venturis are *ABOVE* the throttle plates. They have a very important job to do, but it isn't manifold vacuum.

May I humbly suggest Louis read and study documents in this thread: http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?13726-Motorcraft-2100-2150-Theory-of-Operation

That thread should be required reading for any owner carbureting his DeLorean. Just sticking a mystery box on top of the engine without understanding what it is or how it works is not a solid foundation for future success.

Bill Robertson
#5939

I'm going to check that thread out tonight bill. thanks for linking it


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Lou and "Boo"]

Grow up.

Other than my setup and tuning post, everything posted in that thread was written 10-40 years ago. It's been public record for nearly half a century. I found it easily enough, as have millions of other people. If you are too damn lazy to do your own research, that's your problem, not mine.

Both you and Louis are very disruptive presences in this thread. Is that really your motivation -- to cause trouble?

May I humbly suggest you start your own thread in which to bitch and complain, rather than polluting this one.

Bill Robertson
#5939


I'm going to check that thread out tonight bill. thanks for linking it


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

That info is very valuable for carb owners for sure !!! :)

[DMCVegas]

No, Bill, none of that is the case here at all.

This isn't merely a case of how I have a different opinion than yours. The problem is that you keep on not only disparaging the marque, but you also continue to spread inaccurate & outright false information. Facts are not a simple difference of opinion; facts are indisputable.

And don't act like this is anything personal against you in particular, because it is not. If John Zachary De Lorean himself rose from the grave and immediately started posting the same kind of crap you have been trying to spread around to boost yourself up, I'd take him to task just as quickly.

Eaxmple: Cars are no more safer with a Carburetor than they are Fuel Injection of any kind. Your opinions to the contrary are inconsequential to the truth of the matter. That is the kind of thing I am challenging you upon, and precisely why you cower away each time and continue to try and change the subject so that you avoid the painful truth: You're wrong.

If you don't like my challenging of your inaccurate information, then you need to stop posting it. Stop attacking me because of your ignorance.

[Drive Stainless]

It should also be patently obvious that your ideas and opinions bear absolutely no weight with me.

You could write a library of diatribes, and I still wouldn't give them any credence.

(And to be perfectly fair, you feel the same way about me).

I would appreciate it if you would take your ideas and opinions to your own thread, rather than making a mess all over mine. That would be the polite thing to do.

I don't pollute your threads, please don't pollute mine.

Bill Robertson
#5939

Speaking of patently obvious, Bill's thoughts about high pressure fuel systems are not unique. For example:

U.S. Patent 6,264,437 granted 7/24/2001
col. 2, lines 7 - 10

In the particular case of high pressure fuel injection, if the element that breaks is the element delivering the fuel, fire will inevitably break out.

U.S. Patent 5,437,255 granted 8/1/1995
col. 2, lines 41 - 57

Among the disadvantages of conventional fuel injection are the following:
(1) A high degree of mechanical complexity, with the accompanying increase in possible modes of failure; (2) High cost of manufacture and maintenance due to the complexity of the systems; (3) Safety hazards due to the use of high pressure fuel pumps in most conventional fuel injection systems. In automotive applications, for example, the rupture of a high pressure fuel line due to a collision or other failure presents a serious hazard—and expensive safety systems must be employed to guard against this danger. (4) Conventional fuel injection systems are “analog” in nature, requiring some kind of digital-to-analog interface in order to allow computer control. These problems of conventional fuel injection have tended to prevent its universal adoption despite its many advantages.

U.S. Patent 4,125,101 granted 11/14/1978
col. 3, lines 41 - 60

Keeping the operating pressure for this fuel injection system at low levels such as those indicated makes it much easier, especially with already existing engines, to avoid leaks at various sealing points throughout the system. With a higher pressure fuel injection system, leaks are likely to occur, for example, at the piston rings, which will dilute the lubricating oil on the cylinder walls and wash a portion of the oil down into the oil pan and create a fire hazard there. Keeping the operating pressure low will also avoid the stretching and weakening of any rubber lines in the system that can occur with higher pressures. And it is further desirable to avoid high operating pressures because they would tend to magnify the effects of small obstructions in the fuel lines, and the resulting imbalance in the flow of gasoline to the various cylinders, which can produce off balance operation of the engine through irregular gas feed to different cylinders, with accompanying scoring of the cylinder walls, the cocking of pistons, and strain on the bearings and connecting rods.

Lastly, Bosch's own U.S. Patent 4,227,501 describes:
col. 3, lines 18 - 24

[T]he fuel supply pump must deliver a high supply pressure, which increases its cost and its power consumption and results in greater wear. Furthermore, there is the increased danger at high pressures which can cause leakage and breaks in the lines with the result that the engine may catch fire.


Moral of the story: Replace your fuel lines & copper washers if uncertain about age or condition. The risk outweighs any cost savings.