What's the best oil?

[Redsquall]

standard, synthentic?

[81dmc]

standard, synthentic?

Standard. I use Castrol GTX 20W50.

[David T]

Standard. I use Castrol GTX 20W50.


The engine was made to use standard oil, syn is overkill and unnecessary. There are anecdotal cases of old motors used to ordinary oil that when switched to syn, started leaking because the seals get hardened and allow the syn to leak faster. The most important factor is regular oil changes with a good brand of oil.

[81dmc]

The engine was made to use standard oil, syn is overkill and unnecessary. There are anecdotal cases of old motors used to ordinary oil that when switched to syn, started leaking because the seals get hardened and allow the syn to leak faster. The most important factor is regular oil changes with a good brand of oil.

The only reason to use synthetic is on a newly-rebuilt motor IMHO.

[hmcelraft]

I wrote the attached note in 2013 for a previous post. I still use Mobil 1 10W-40 High Mileage Oil and the OEM long block has about 15,000 miles on it now.

[DMCMW Dave]

Our normal go-to oil is Castrol 20W-50. If you are the typical low mile driver and change it every year/3000 miles it should be fine. This is the official company recommendation.

Having torn down a few engines at this point, I'm most impressed with high mile engines that have been running synthetic oil. If you are doing that I typically use Mobil 1 15W50. NOTE this is my opinion based on observation and personal use. Mobil does not recommend synthetic in this engine probably because they have not tested it. Do this at your own risk.

I also recommend against changing to synthetic oil on an engine with unknown history and/or without a look under the valve covers. I have seen an instance where a somewhat grungy engine was switched to Synthetic, and the grunge inside started to come loose and plug things up. If there are deposits on the inside of the engine stick with the regular oil, and change it more often.

[dustybarn]

I use Brad Penn 20W50. It is basically the old green Kendall GT1, made in the former Kendall refinery. It has a high zinc content by modern standards, which may be beneficial for our cams and rocker arms. Castrol GTX 20W50 is also well-regarded.

[Bitsyncmaster]

I bought my D with 22,000 miles on it and I run MOBIL 1 since. Last year I did valve gaskets and could not believe how clean the valve covers were. I've rebuilt many other engines in my life and valve covers always have a lot of gunk in them.

[novadmc]

Standard. I use Castrol GTX 20W50.

same here. I change it once a year (since i only drive about 1500-2000mi/year)

[Mark D]

Same here, I use Castrol GTX 20W-50.

[FABombjoy]

Our normal go-to oil is Castrol 20W-50. If you are the typical low mile driver and change it every year/3000 miles it should be fine. This is the official company recommendation.
Serious questions: :)

1: Which official company?
2: Why not use 10w-30 per Volvo's 1984 TSB? I feel like that carries a lot of weight (ack, pun) behind it. The TSB claims the revision is to lower deposits, although that may not be a significant issue with modern oils, but the improved fuel economy, power, and stability of having a lower viscosity spread would seem worth the switch.

[content22207_2]

viscosity spread

The way multi-viscosity oils work:

Base oil is the lower viscosity number. A 20W50 oil is based on 20 weight oil.

Higher viscosity number is achieved with coiled polymers that unwind as they heat up, making the base oil act like thicker oil.

The bigger the difference between viscosity numbers, the more dependent the oil is on these polymers for the higher rating. As those polymers break down, the less able the oil is to reach a thicker state. Single biggest threat to multi viscosity polymers is physical -- they get ground into pieces ("viscosity shear"). Multi viscosity polymers that are broken into pieces can't thicken the oil up as well as intact polymers.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[mr_maxime]

Any recommendations for people who drive over 3k miles per year? I'm assuming its just the same but at 3k intervals.

[content22207_2]

Change your oil every 3,000 miles (or less -- I use 2,500 mile intervals). Oil and filters aren't prohibitively expensive. Changing the oil is one of the cheapest things you can do to a car.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[sdg3205]

I had the oil talk with Wolfgang of the DeLorean World Tour when they were in Vancouver. They run synthetics in their cars, and not just because of the distances they have to travel before an oil change is possible. If your DeLorean leaks oil now, it will still leak oil with synthetic. You probably wont notice an increase in the amount of oil leaked. I switched my 220,000 mi Jeep to synthetic and the slight leak at the valve cover did not get any worse.

We know little of synthetics in DMCs because its rare. At less than 2000 miles per year, even I have a tough time justifying it.

Castrol 20w-50.

[David T]

Any recommendations for people who drive over 3k miles per year? I'm assuming its just the same but at 3k intervals.

I see no problem going to 5,000 miles or once a year, which ever comes first. Oils are made so much better now than in the past, the PRV isn't working all that hard, and the motor holds 6 qts so it never gets overheated and breaks down. Changing it more often is not necessary and wasteful. Always change the oil filter when changing the oil.

[DMCVegas]

Mobil does not recommend synthetic in this engine probably because they have not tested it.

I think that James Espy had a story about this where Mobil was talking with DMCH, and they came back and advised against it's use for some reason. He probably has the details on that.

Otherwise, no one is going to have a solid answer about this question. Asking questions about what brand or type of oil to use is like asking which religion is best to follow...

Anyway, I use 20w50 in the summer, and drop down to 10w40 in the winter when it gets much colder in Vegas. The difference during cranking on cold mornings was obvious, and those weight recommendations in relation to temperature are in the Owner's Manual. If you're not a year-round daily driver, you probably don't need to drop down to the lighter weight.

[content22207_2]

2: Why not use 10w-30 per Volvo's 1984 TSB? I feel like that carries a lot of weight (ack, pun) behind it. The TSB claims the revision is to lower deposits, although that may not be a significant issue with modern oils, but the improved fuel economy, power, and stability of having a lower viscosity spread would seem worth the switch.

IIRC the TSB was due to excessive camshaft wear. I'm traveling at the moment, but will check when I get home.

IIRC TSB was dated November 1984. It applied retroactively to all PRV's.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[FABombjoy]

Asking questions about what brand or type of oil to use is like asking which religion is best to follow...
I agree completely and normally steer clear of oil threads as they tend to be a parade of N=1, brand loyalty, and thinly-veiled MLM conscription schemes.

Scientific interests are why Volvo TSB is so interesting. Volvo used a wide variety of PRVs for far longer and would have had access to scientific testing and a large sampling of statistical data regarding oil-related failures. If feel like if I have to take the word of DMC or Volvo I would side with Volvo.

[mluder]

My understanding is that the issue with synthetics is they are very consistent at a molecular level when compared to traditional. This is why they tend to show leaks more often especially in older cars.
I used to run Pennzoil 10W-30 and recently changed to Castrol GTX 10W-40 on my last oil change... Now my previously leak free engine is dripping oil everywhere. Needless to say I will be going back to Pennzoil on the next change. (Or maybe try the Castrol 20W-50 as Dave suggested)

Of course that's my story - your experience may vary.

Cheers
Steven

[PJ Grady Inc.]

I see no problem going to 5,000 miles or once a year, which ever comes first. Oils are made so much better now than in the past, the PRV isn't working all that hard, and the motor holds 6 qts so it never gets overheated and breaks down. Changing it more often is not necessary and wasteful. Always change the oil filter when changing the oil.

Ahh.....David wouldn't that be much closer to 7 quarts or have I been overfilling these engines for 35 years with no discernible problems? Synthetic is unnecessary unless you're doing the Delorean World Tour. What is important, and I'm surprised nobody brought this up, is the correct viscosity oil. The oil companies have been gradually reformulating their oils since the early nineties decreasing the amount of zinc and phosphorus to trace elements in the quest of increasing catalytic converter life and efficiency. Newer engines use better materials and design improvements to eliminate the need for these minerals. Earlier engines however will suffer premature wear without them. The only exception to this reformulation is 15-40W which retains these elements because diesels and turbocharged engines still have a need for it.
Bottom line is all engines made before the early 90's will last longer using 15-40W oil unless you use an additive with your favorite grade of oil.Now if you want the absolute best oils made my research indicates the Amsoil product line starts with the best base stock available from which they formulate their oils. A Delorean does not need an oil anywhere near that good and the typical $12- a quart price for their oils should be enough of a deterrent that most people will take a pass anyway.
Any good quality conventional 15-40W oil should provide all the protection you need unless you're running DPI's Stage Eleven, EFI fueled, dual liquid inter-cooled, sequentially twin turbo'd time bomb or similarly stressed PVR!
Rob

[Lou and "Boo"]

My "fastest naturally aspirated PRV" qualifies as a stressed engine .... No?

[PJ Grady Inc.]

My "fastest naturally aspirated PRV" qualifies as a stressed engine .... No?

If indeed it is the fastest...by all means yes!
Rob

[content22207_2]

What is important, and I'm surprised nobody brought this up, is the correct viscosity oil. The oil companies have been gradually reformulating their oils since the early nineties decreasing the amount of zinc and phosphorus to trace elements in the quest of increasing catalytic converter life and efficiency. Newer engines use better materials and design improvements to eliminate the need for these minerals. Earlier engines however will suffer premature wear without them. The only exception to this reformulation is 15-40W which retains these elements because diesels and turbocharged engines still have a need for it.
Bottom line is all engines made before the early 90's will last longer using 15-40W oil unless you use an additive with your favorite grade of oil.Now if you want the absolute best oils made my research indicates the Amsoil product line starts with the best base stock available from which they formulate their oils. A Delorean does not need an oil anywhere near that good and the typical $12- a quart price for their oils should be enough of a deterrent that most people will take a pass anyway.
Any good quality conventional 15-40W oil should provide all the protection you need unless you're running DPI's Stage Eleven, EFI fueled, dual liquid inter-cooled, sequentially twin turbo'd time bomb or similarly stressed PVR!
Rob

What you're talking about is Zinc Dialkyldithiophosphate (ZDDP). It's an anti wear additive oil companies started adding in the 1960's (API SB). Motor oils were typically about .15% ZDDP through API SL. Starting with API SM oil was limited to .08% ZDDP *MAXIMUM* -- it can have less, but not any more. Some SN rated oils have .06% ZDDP.

Through API CI-4 there was no limit to ZDDP in diesel oil. API CJ-4 limits ZDDP to .12%. I use Delo 15W40 exclusively in all my vehicles, which currently is .11% ZDDP. Chevron also uses a proprietary refining process that introduces less paraffin into the oil.

Modern engines don't need ZDDP because their rocker arms have ball bearings riding on the camshaft lobes. Older engines use "flat tappets" -- either lifters or rocker arms riding on the camshaft directly. It's the difference between roller skating across a floor versus dragging your feet.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[DMC-81]

I also use Castrol GTX 20W-50 as recommended, but...

I had read about the presence of zinc being good, and saw the flat tappets during my valve adjustment last year (see pic). My question is, what percentage or PPM of zinc is required in our specific version of the PRV, and does somebody have an oil analysis of Castrol GTX 20W-50 or a link that shows the amount of zinc? I can't find it on the Castrol website.

I had also heard that Castrol Edge is better for classic cars, but it would be nice to have these analyses to see for myself. All I can find is internet hearsay.

Also, I read that diesel oil in gas engines may not be good either, because although they have higher zinc, they also have higher levels of detergents. Does this cause concern?

40309

[content22207_2]

API SM or SN is .08% (800 PPM) ZDDP max. It can have less, but no more.

Bob is the Oil Guy website has a bunch of oil analyses (search the forum).

API CJ-4 is significantly different from CI-4. Detergent levels are dramatically lower due to engine emission devices and low sulphur fuel. I believe API limits CJ-4 to .12% ZDDP max.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[David T]

ZDDP does not directly affect the viscosity of the oil. The PRV holds 6-7 qts more or less. There is a range of over 1 qt between full and low. I put 6 1/2 qts into mine when I do an oil change. Puts the level right in the middle between full and low. I am not sure how applicable that Volvo TSB is to our engine, there were a lot of variations of the PRV.

[DMCVegas]

Can we put this thread back on topic?

How about we just list what weight and brand of oil we use?

10w40 is the best all around weight for most owners. Unless you're running in constant triple-digit temps, then you switch to 20w50. Colder temps, perhaps 10w30, but most people avoid winter driving. This info is clearly, and completely listed inside of the Owner's Manual.

Brand is not important per se, despite what you will hear. As long as you're using a proper name-brand oil such as Castrol, Valvoline, Pennzoil, or something like that.

Generic, non-detergent oils are BAD! Don't be a dumbass and use garbage oils like these morons:

http://www.chron.com/cars/article/Lawsuit-Dollar-General-motor-oil-not-safe-for-6715701.php#photo-9150104

[content22207_2]

Generic, non-detergent oils are BAD! Don't be a dumbass and use garbage oils like these morons:

http://www.chron.com/cars/article/Lawsuit-Dollar-General-motor-oil-not-safe-for-6715701.php#photo-9150104

Private label oil (ex: NAPA brand) is not inherently bad. If it has a certain API rating, it meets the same API criteria as brand name oil.

SAE rating refers to viscosity only. It ensures all oils of the same rating are in fact the same thickness -- nothing else.

Detergent packages are proprietary and vary between manufacturers.

Both API and SAE ratings are on each bottle. Detergent packages are not.

Other oil ingredients, such as paraffin, can only be identified through an analysis.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[dmruschell]

I also use Castrol GTX 20W-50 as recommended, but...

I had read about the presence of zinc being good, and saw the flat tappets during my valve adjustment last year (see pic). My question is, what percentage or PPM of zinc is required in our specific version of the PRV, and does somebody have an oil analysis of Castrol GTX 20W-50 or a link that shows the amount of zinc? I can't find it on the Castrol website.

I had also heard that Castrol Edge is better for classic cars, but it would be nice to have these analyses to see for myself. All I can find is internet hearsay.

Also, I read that diesel oil in gas engines may not be good either, because although they have higher zinc, they also have higher levels of detergents. Does this cause concern?

40309

The DeLorean is just one of several classic cars I own. After a lot of research and mechanic's recommendation, I was using Valvoline VR-1 20W50 conventional in all my cars (I preferred the 10W30, but it was never carried in stores).

I started using that after my mechanic rebuilt the engine in my 79 Vette and then realized why some of his other builds were wiping cam lobes and recommended it to me. So, that engine had about 6,000 miles on it before I started running Valvoline in it. It had already started burning oil, and it ended up being rebuilt again in October. It was probably due to the oil that was used before the VR-1, but there was definitely some premature wear in the engine (I say that because even racers have used VR-1 in their engines and the engines look fine at the end of the season). Not wanting to take a chance, though, we switched oil to Lucas Hot Rod oil 10w30. It's about as available as the VR-1, but it can also be ordered in 5 quart jugs. I'm using up my supply of VR-1 in my DeLoreans, but either one should be a fine choice. Both are high in ZDDP and are designed for flat-tappet gasoline engines.

I've heard that the detergents in diesel oil make them a bad candidate for gasoline engines that rev high. I run my DeLorean to its 6,500 redline, so it would not be a good choice for me. The 2 oils mentioned above meet my needs: readily available, relatively cheap ($6/quart for VR-1 quarts or for 5 quarts of Lucas), and will work well in all of my classic cars. I don't want to have to stock 5 kinds of oil.

[PJ Grady Inc.]

The DeLorean is just one of several classic cars I own. After a lot of research and mechanic's recommendation, I was using Valvoline VR-1 20W50 conventional in all my cars (I preferred the 10W30, but it was never carried in stores).

I started using that after my mechanic rebuilt the engine in my 79 Vette and then realized why some of his other builds were wiping cam lobes and recommended it to me. So, that engine had about 6,000 miles on it before I started running Valvoline in it. It had already started burning oil, and it ended up being rebuilt again in October. It was probably due to the oil that was used before the VR-1, but there was definitely some premature wear in the engine (I say that because even racers have used VR-1 in their engines and the engines look fine at the end of the season). Not wanting to take a chance, though, we switched oil to Lucas Hot Rod oil 10w30. It's about as available as the VR-1, but it can also be ordered in 5 quart jugs. I'm using up my supply of VR-1 in my DeLoreans, but either one should be a fine choice. Both are high in ZDDP and are designed for flat-tappet gasoline engines.

I've heard that the detergents in diesel oil make them a bad candidate for gasoline engines that rev high. I run my DeLorean to its 6,500 redline, so it would not be a good choice for me. The 2 oils mentioned above meet my needs: readily available, relatively cheap ($6/quart for VR-1 quarts or for 5 quarts of Lucas), and will work well in all of my classic cars. I don't want to have to stock 5 kinds of oil.

Who told you that? The guys that are selling you VR-1 for use in a PRV or '79 Vette I would bet. I just got off the phone with my wholesaler who said all modern oils contain detergent dispersants...not detergents. Its a different animal and I don't have time to explain further now. The fact remains that unless you want to waste money on an expensive premium or boutique oils you should stick to a 15-40 diesel rated oil. None of the other viscosity oils are rated for earlier flat tappet engines anymore. I explained why but nobody listened or seems to care. The original DMC manual recommendations are hopelessly outdated. IMHO if your using any other viscosity oil without sufficient ZDDP you will pay the price down the road with increased engine wear. The only oil that is guaranteed to have a sufficient amount without paying a premium is 15-40 because the government wants it that way. Therefore the only way you won't pay a premium for having sufficient ZDDP is 15-40 weight by government mandates. Everyone can argue about it all day but in the end the naysayers may learn to regret it unless I have my facts wrong. It's just going to take some time for this to play out so don't expect the ultimate answer overnight. The detergent issue is a myth created by fancy oil retailers so if you feel better believing it when paying double or triple for oil it won't hurt you...only your wallet. When you drain your fancy $12- a quart oil it's unused protection capabilities will go down the drain, along with your money, back into the waste stream of underused and oversold products.
While I'm at the pulpit it could someone (Bill perhaps) please break these topics (the other being DMCL engine EPA certification efforts) into the two unrelated threads it has become? That is the specialty of our friends over at DMC Today as I recall not that there's anything wrong with that! They are better at it via continued practice but I prefer dealing with one topic at a time as I suspect most of the Talk people do. Isn't that why you're here and not there?
Rob

[content22207_2]

I explained why but nobody listened or seems to care.

I listened and I care:


What you're talking about is Zinc Dialkyldithiophosphate (ZDDP). It's an anti wear additive oil companies started adding in the 1960's (API SB). Motor oils were typically about .15% ZDDP through API SL. Starting with API SM oil was limited to .08% ZDDP *MAXIMUM* -- it can have less, but not any more. Some SN rated oils have .06% ZDDP.

Through API CI-4 there was no limit to ZDDP in diesel oil. API CJ-4 limits ZDDP to .12%. I use Delo 15W40 exclusively in all my vehicles, which currently is .11% ZDDP. Chevron also uses a proprietary refining process that introduces less paraffin into the oil.

Modern engines don't need ZDDP because their rocker arms have ball bearings riding on the camshaft lobes. Older engines use "flat tappets" -- either lifters or rocker arms riding on the camshaft directly. It's the difference between roller skating across a floor versus dragging your feet.

As stated, I use Chevron Delo exclusively in all my vehicles, which is API CJ-4. It is slightly more than .11% ZDDP.

I have seen oil analyses for API SN oils that are half that. Remember: API SM/SN is .08% ZDDP *MAXIMUM -- they can have less, but no more.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[FABombjoy]

I explained why but nobody listened or seems to care.
I care! Thanks for providing your experiences.

I'm currently running 15w-40 diesel so now I've got a renewed sense of warm fuzzies.

[PJ Grady Inc.]

I listened and I care:



As stated, I use Chevron Delo exclusively in all my vehicles, which is API CJ-4. It is slightly more than .11% ZDDP.

I have seen oil analyses for API SN oils that are half that. Remember: API SM/SN is .08% ZDDP *MAXIMUM -- they can have less, but no more.

Bill Robertson
#5939

Except you Bill....except you!
Rob

[content22207_2]

And Luke.

Diesel oil for ZDDP is quite controversial around the Internet. There are proponents and critics on both sides.

My reasoning: ZDDP was added to motor oil for a reason. The only reason it has been reduced/eliminated is catalytic converter longevity -- a non issue for owners who may have jetisoned their converters (*MAY* have). Even if ZDDP does shorten converter life, I'd much rather replace a catalytic converter than replace a camshaft, or perhaps even an engine.

If somebody made SAE 30 weight diesel oil I'd be all over it in a heartbeat (I live in the South).

Bill Robertson
#5939

[PJ Grady Inc.]

And Luke.

Diesel oil for ZDDP is quite controversial around the Internet. There are proponents and critics on both sides.

My reasoning: ZDDP was added to motor oil for a reason. The only reason it has been reduced/eliminated is catalytic converter longevity -- a non issue for owners who may have jetisoned their converters (*MAY* have). Even if ZDDP does shorten converter life, I'd much rather replace a catalytic converter than replace a camshaft, or perhaps even an engine.

If somebody made SAE 30 weight diesel oil I'd be all over it in a heartbeat (I live in the South).

Bill Robertson
#5939

According to my source, I hate to say it but, there are also environmental reasons as the way it's reintroduced into the environment via emissions is also a source of pollution.
Rob

[content22207_2]

That makes sense because zinc is a heavy metal. There is always residual oil being burned inside the combustion chambers from piston upstrokes.

Of course every diesel truck on the highway is running the exact same oil, with similar residual inside their combustion chambers. Classic car owners aren't doing anything truckers aren't already doing themselves.

Irrespective, here's a $10,000 question: which introduces more zinc into the atmosphere: a classic car, potentially without emissions, that gets driven 5K-10K miles per year, or a modern car with emissions that gets driven 20K miles per year?

Another $10,000 question: which introduces more zinc into the atmosphere: classic cars (potentially without emissions) or all the gasoline powered lawn equipment in this country (and chain saws, and gasoline powered welders/air compressors, etc).

Zinc plated metal welders don't capture the fumes -- they just vent them outside the shop like a range hood.

I think you can run diesel oil in your DeLorean with a clear environmental conscience.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[PJ Grady Inc.]

I care! Thanks for providing your experiences.

I'm currently running 15w-40 diesel so now I've got a renewed sense of warm fuzzies.

You too Luke! You'll be the one laughing as you pass by all the worn out broken down Delorean's on the the road to DCS this summer.:deedledee:
Rob

[FABombjoy]

Even if ZDDP does shorten converter life, I'd much rather replace a catalytic converter than replace a camshaft, or perhaps even an engine.
Luckily for me some dingus jettisoned the cat for a turbocharger! If I clog that thing up it'll be with bits of valve and piston (not the O2 sensor tho, I relocated... I mean someone relocated that downstream)


You too Luke! You'll be the one laughing as you pass by all the worn out broken down Delorean's on the the road to DCS this summer.:deedledee:
As long as my PRV timebomb holds together I'll be there :)

(pack me an extra longblock just in case will ya?)

[David T]

ZDDP has nothing to do with viscosity. it is an additive to increase lubricity. The final verdict is not in but it does seem like older engines, born on high ZDDP levels and then weaned to lower level oils seem to be OK. The theory is the surfaces become "conditioned" and don't need the higher levels. We will see. The EPA is trying to extend catalytic converter life and among the contaminants preventing that is heavy metals like Zinc. In the meantime it is not against the law to use oils with higher levels but you have to be careful and do some research so that you know what you are doing. Too much ZDDP is no good too. And there are other things in oil that are changing and affect each other. Unless you are an oil engineer you should go on the advice of others, especially the ones who see the engines torn down and the results of low ZDDP. Unfortunately few document when and what kind of oil they used so a lot of this becomes anecdotal. The best cases are fleets who DO monitor and carefully track what they use and when. As important as ZDDP levels may be it is still more important that you use a good, premium brand and change it regularly. Stay away from additives, there is no way to know how much you are really adding when you start to try blending your own oil. Either get diesel oils or racing oils and now there are some "high mileage" oils that claim higher ZDDP levels. Buying premium, nationally branded oils is the safest bet, they can afford to do the testing necessary to make sure all of the additives are in there and in the proper quantity. Small, boutique oils can't afford that kind of testing. About the only small one that can might be Amsoil. The best advice is to go with what is recommended by the shops that service a lot of Deloreans. They are the ones in the best position to give such advice based on their observations. Also you are part of the continuing research effort to follow and track the products. That is how it was discovered the Bosch Platinum plugs were NG for us! For cars that see less than 3,000 miles a year, excess wear from low levels of ZDDP should not be a big concern. There were similar warnings on old cars when you could no longer get leaded gas. The world did not end and old cars did not self destruct as predicted.

[content22207_2]

ZDDP has nothing to do with viscosity. it is an additive to increase lubricity.

Post #43:


SAE rating refers to viscosity only. It ensures all oils of the same rating are in fact the same thickness -- nothing else.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[kings1527]

Who told you that? The guys that are selling you VR-1 for use in a PRV or '79 Vette I would bet. I just got off the phone with my wholesaler who said all modern oils contain detergent dispersants...not detergents. Its a different animal and I don't have time to explain further now. The fact remains that unless you want to waste money on an expensive premium or boutique oils you should stick to a 15-40 diesel rated oil. None of the other viscosity oils are rated for earlier flat tappet engines anymore. I explained why but nobody listened or seems to care. The original DMC manual recommendations are hopelessly outdated. IMHO if your using any other viscosity oil without sufficient ZDDP you will pay the price down the road with increased engine wear. The only oil that is guaranteed to have a sufficient amount without paying a premium is 15-40 because the government wants it that way. Therefore the only way you won't pay a premium for having sufficient ZDDP is 15-40 weight by government mandates. Everyone can argue about it all day but in the end the naysayers may learn to regret it unless I have my facts wrong. It's just going to take some time for this to play out so don't expect the ultimate answer overnight. The detergent issue is a myth created by fancy oil retailers so if you feel better believing it when paying double or triple for oil it won't hurt you...only your wallet. When you drain your fancy $12- a quart oil it's unused protection capabilities will go down the drain, along with your money, back into the waste stream of underused and oversold products.
While I'm at the pulpit it could someone (Bill perhaps) please break these topics (the other being DMCL engine EPA certification efforts) into the two unrelated threads it has become? That is the specialty of our friends over at DMC Today as I recall not that there's anything wrong with that! They are better at it via continued practice but I prefer dealing with one topic at a time as I suspect most of the Talk people do. Isn't that why you're here and not there?
Rob

This some of the best and most important info on the car's maintenance that I've come across in a long time. Back up by facts about oil production over the past 35 years. I'll be making the swap from 20w-50 to 15w-40 at my next oil change. Thanks for all this, Rob.

[content22207_2]

The Volvo TSB Luke was referencing is #22103, October 1984. It specifies API SF and SAE 10W30 for B28F, retroactive to B27F. Owner's manuals previously read API SE and SAE 10W40.

API SF was introduced in 1980 (previous API SE was introduced 1972).

API SF did not specify maximum ZDDP levels. .12%-.15% was typical.

FWIW: API currently recommends only SJ oil for vehicles built before 2001. IIRC API SL was when maximum ZDDP levels were first specified.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[Farrar]

I'll be making the swap from 20w-50 to 15w-40 at my next oil change.

Ditto. I was running Valvoline VR-1 20w50 in #2613's original engine. The new engine will get 15w40. Rob Grady makes a valid point, and his information is as close to gospel as you can get in the DeLorean community. I'm sold! :thumbup2:

[content22207_2]

For anyone looking to recreate engine oil of the 1980's, CJ-4 is probably as close as you can get (certainly as close from a retail shelf).

I still have one gallon of CI-4 that I'm saving like vintage wine.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[PJ Grady Inc.]

For anyone looking to recreate engine oil of the 1980's, CJ-4 is probably as close as you can get (certainly as close from a retail shelf).

I still have one gallon of CI-4 that I'm saving like vintage wine.

Bill Robertson
#5939

As you know oil does not get better with age Bill. Just us it on a 4 qt capacity engine if you have one.
Rob

[Lou and "Boo"]

Rob Grady ..... his information is as close to gospel as you can get in the DeLorean community.

See Farrar? We DO agree on some things.

[novadmc]

As you know oil does not get better with age Bill. Just us it on a 4 qt capacity engine if you have one.
Rob

I assume this would mean Rotella-T 15w40 would fit the bill.
40659

[PJ Grady Inc.]

Thanks Alex and Ferrar for reading and actually heading my advice. It's the occasional feeling that someone respects my opinions that I bother to take the time to post here. I realize that often they are only opinions however based on "facts" as I interpret them so everyone is allowed to have their own opinion or interpretation of said "facts". there are few "absolutes" in this world. I always try to give my best advice based on experience and it sometimes is disheartening to always be challenged and second guessed. If I wanted arguments I'd start talking politics. Thanks again!
Rob

[PJ Grady Inc.]

I assume this would mean Rotella-T 15w40 would fit the bill.
40659
Yes that exceeds the protection a PRV needs according to my supplier without being total overkill.
Rob

[FABombjoy]

Thanks Alex and Ferrar for reading and actually heading my advice. It's the occasional feeling that someone respects my opinions that I bother to take the time to post here.
The company was gone in the blink of an eye so a large body of experience is better than the service manual. Especially in a time where people assume they can get good advice on Youtube, or that the most voluminous advice must be the right advice.

I deal with repairing & upgrading a lot of vintage things. Manuals rarely have a "recommended 30 year maintenance" section so I always tell people to not limit themselves to flowcharts or whats left of the OEMs for support. Go back to basics - what's broken, what did it do, what can we make do the same thing. Or in a recent case, helping some people with vintage computer storage and the service manual called for freon as a cleaning agent. Sometimes ya just gotta improvise :D

[kings1527]

Thanks Alex and Ferrar for reading and actually heading my advice. It's the occasional feeling that someone respects my opinions that I bother to take the time to post here. I realize that often they are only opinions however based on "facts" as I interpret them so everyone is allowed to have their own opinion or interpretation of said "facts". there are few "absolutes" in this world. I always try to give my best advice based on experience and it sometimes is disheartening to always be challenged and second guessed. If I wanted arguments I'd start talking politics. Thanks again!
Rob

My posts-per-day statistic doesn't reflect how often I'm on this site (anywhere from 5-10 times/day). So I think you definitely have a lot of people lurking in the internet weeds most of the time and learning a grip of info, even though they may not post it and say so.

[Rich_NYS]

My posts-per-day statistic doesn't reflect how often I'm on this site (anywhere from 5-10 times/day). So I think you definitely have a lot of people lurking in the internet weeds most of the time and learning a grip of info, even though they may not post it and say so.

+1

[DMC-81]

I also use Castrol GTX 20W-50 as recommended, but...

I had read about the presence of zinc being good, and saw the flat tappets during my valve adjustment last year (see pic). My question is, what percentage or PPM of zinc is required in our specific version of the PRV, and does somebody have an oil analysis of Castrol GTX 20W-50 or a link that shows the amount of zinc? I can't find it on the Castrol website.

I had also heard that Castrol Edge is better for classic cars, but it would be nice to have these analyses to see for myself. All I can find is internet hearsay.

Also, I read that diesel oil in gas engines may not be good either, because although they have higher zinc, they also have higher levels of detergents. Does this cause concern?

40309

Thanks for the great replies to my questions. After not finding a recent oil analysis on the ZDDP content of the recommended oil for our car, I decided to ask Castrol / BP. Here were my questions and the responses...

Question:
-----------------------
Subject: ZDDP levels in Castrol motor oils

I am wondering what the amount of ZDDP ( zinc/phosphorous additive) that is in Castrol GTX 20W-50 motor oil here in the USA. I have a 1981 DeLorean that calls for this oil in the Owners manual. The engine has flat tappets in the valve train, and it needs ZDDP. However, I understand that there has been a trend among oil manufacturers to reduce the levels of this additive in recent years. As a result, although my 1981 manual calls for this oil, I don't know if it is still appropriate in 2016.

Please provide an oil analysis for this specific oil, and any others that you recommend.

Answer:
---------------------------

Thank you for contacting Castrol North America.

Classic cars with flat tappet cam engines represent a special case in regards to engine oil lubrication. These engines have valve train configurations that require elevated levels of zddp (zinc dialkyl dithiophosphate) anti-wear for proper protection of the flat tappet camshaft and its lifters. Insufficient concentration of zddp will lead to premature wear and failure of the camshaft and lifters. Current GF-4 and GF-5 fuel economy grade engine oils are designed for extended life of the catalytic convertors in modern passenger cars and have industry mandated limitations on the amount of sulfur and phosphorus within the oil.

Castrol always recommends following the guidelines of your manufacturer to determine the recommended grade and API specific to your application. This information can be found in your owner’s manual, or by contacting your OEM directly.

Castrol EDGE SAE 5W-50 has been recently reformulated to have a boosted level of ZDDP (1250 ppm) to help protect flat tappet cam engines in classic cars. This engine oil is a full synthetic, has excellent cold temperature properties, and has a high temperature viscosity (SAE 50) that is suitable for use in many classic car applications.


Thank you again for contacting Castrol, we value your patronage!

Castrol Consumer Relations


Since they didn't directly answer the question on GTX 20W-50, I replied:
-----------------------

Thanks for the information on Castrol Edge SAE 5W-50 relative to ZDDP.

However, I just want to confirm that the US version of Castrol GTX 20W-50 is not recommended for classic cars with flat tappet engines due to the amount of ZDDP, correct?

Here was their response:
---------------------

Thank you for contacting Castrol.

Castrol GTX motor oil, including 20W-50, would not be recommended for use for a classic car with a flat tappet cam engine due to industry mandated limitations on the amount of sulfur and phosphorus within the oil.

Thank you again for contacting Castrol. We value your patronage!

Castrol Consumer Relations

--------------------

Since Castrol Edge is synthetic, I guess Castrol is out of the running for me. It's been a year since I put the Castrol in (but less than 50 miles) so it's time to change it anyway.

Thanks for the tips on the diesel rated oils. Before I buy the next oil, and since I live in a hot climate, I'll begin searching for a high quality conventional 20W-50 oil that has a minimum of 1200 PPM of ZDDP and the recommended service rating.

Cheers,

[81dmc]

Damn, and I just replaced my oil... Oh well, at my next change, I will follow Rob's advice. He definitely knows what he's talking about!!!

[novadmc]

Yes that exceeds the protection a PRV needs according to my supplier without being total overkill.
Rob

well guess i know what im using on my next oil change. and cheap from walmart is always a plus. thanks again Rob!

[content22207_2]

I decided to ask Castrol / BP. Here were my questions and the responses...

When an oil manufacturer itself tells you not to use one of its products, credence should be paid. It's like McDonald's saying it's OK to eat their apple slices but stay away from the Big Mac because it's not healthy for you.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[Lou and "Boo"]

Thanks for the great replies to my questions. After not finding a recent oil analysis on the ZDDP content of the recommended oil for our car, I decided to ask Castrol / BP. Here were my questions and the responses...

Question:
-----------------------
Subject: ZDDP levels in Castrol motor oils

I am wondering what the amount of ZDDP ( zinc/phosphorous additive) that is in Castrol GTX 20W-50 motor oil here in the USA. I have a 1981 DeLorean that calls for this oil in the Owners manual. The engine has flat tappets in the valve train, and it needs ZDDP. However, I understand that there has been a trend among oil manufacturers to reduce the levels of this additive in recent years. As a result, although my 1981 manual calls for this oil, I don't know if it is still appropriate in 2016.

Please provide an oil analysis for this specific oil, and any others that you recommend.

Answer:
---------------------------

Thank you for contacting Castrol North America.

Classic cars with flat tappet cam engines represent a special case in regards to engine oil lubrication. These engines have valve train configurations that require elevated levels of zddp (zinc dialkyl dithiophosphate) anti-wear for proper protection of the flat tappet camshaft and its lifters. Insufficient concentration of zddp will lead to premature wear and failure of the camshaft and lifters. Current GF-4 and GF-5 fuel economy grade engine oils are designed for extended life of the catalytic convertors in modern passenger cars and have industry mandated limitations on the amount of sulfur and phosphorus within the oil.

Castrol always recommends following the guidelines of your manufacturer to determine the recommended grade and API specific to your application. This information can be found in your owner’s manual, or by contacting your OEM directly.

Castrol EDGE SAE 5W-50 has been recently reformulated to have a boosted level of ZDDP (1250 ppm) to help protect flat tappet cam engines in classic cars. This engine oil is a full synthetic, has excellent cold temperature properties, and has a high temperature viscosity (SAE 50) that is suitable for use in many classic car applications.


Thank you again for contacting Castrol, we value your patronage!

Castrol Consumer Relations


Since they didn't directly answer the question on GTX 20W-50, I replied:
-----------------------

Thanks for the information on Castrol Edge SAE 5W-50 relative to ZDDP.

However, I just want to confirm that the US version of Castrol GTX 20W-50 is not recommended for classic cars with flat tappet engines due to the amount of ZDDP, correct?

Here was their response:
---------------------

Thank you for contacting Castrol.

Castrol GTX motor oil, including 20W-50, would not be recommended for use for a classic car with a flat tappet cam engine due to industry mandated limitations on the amount of sulfur and phosphorus within the oil.

Thank you again for contacting Castrol. We value your patronage!

Castrol Consumer Relations

--------------------

Since Castrol Edge is synthetic, I guess Castrol is out of the running for me. It's been a year since I put the Castrol in (but less than 50 miles) so it's time to change it anyway.

Thanks for the tips on the diesel rated oils. Before I buy the next oil, and since I live in a hot climate, I'll begin searching for a high quality conventional 20W-50 oil that has a minimum of 1200 PPM of ZDDP and the recommended service rating.

Cheers,


Awesome info Dana! Thank you for posting that. I was going on Rob's Rotella-T 15-40 recommendation but that just clinched it for me not to use castrol ever again.
Josh on today recommends the John deer diesel oil similar to the rotella. I just have never seen that brand for sale near me.

[dustybarn]

15W40 Rotella is swell stuff. I used to use it in my Volvo 740 Turbo.

Other readily available oils with suitably high amounts of ZDDP are Mobil 1 V-Twin 20W50 motorcycle oil and the whole line of Brad Penn Grade 1. All are around 1500 ppm.

[kings1527]

So now I'm thinking about the changeover to 15w-40 and an oil that now has true detergents in it. That would mean it would be smart to do a couple of oil changes (filter, too) at very frequent intervals since I'd anticipate deposits breaking off and ending up in the filter.

I'm thinking a couple oil changes at 500 mile intervals each to help get out all the nasties. And with Rotella at $13/gallon at Wal Mart, definitely no cost issues there.

[content22207_2]

Reread Rob's post on detergents versus dispersents.

Primary difference between diesel and gasoline oil additive packages is acid neutralization. Because of their typically higher blowby, and sulphur in diesel fuel (which has been reduced in the past few years), diesel oil contains a variety of acid neutralization additives, such as calcium, boron, and magnesium. It's not as though diesel oil is full of acetone.

Here is a used Delo oil analysis (not mine):

40719

Note the calcium, boron, and magnesium numbers (I suspect his elevated calcium numbers come from tap water in his cooling system -- note also the high copper numbers -- there's probably some cross pollination between his combustion chambers and the cooling system).

Note also the zinc and phosphorous numbers -- this is what Rob is talking about in terms of ZDDP.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[kings1527]

It was my understanding that modern oils do not contain detergents but rather dispersants, with the exception of 15w40 diesel oil. I guess that's incorrect.

[DMC-81]

The DeLorean is just one of several classic cars I own. After a lot of research and mechanic's recommendation, I was using Valvoline VR-1 20W50 conventional in all my cars (I preferred the 10W30, but it was never carried in stores).

Thanks for the tip! As mentioned, I have been searching for a proper ZDDP, conventional, 20W-50 oil due to Florida's hot climate. A bonus requirement for me is that it is readily available in auto parts stores and at a reasonable price point.

After my research and contacting the company, I too am choosing Valvoline VR-1 Racing Oil part # 822347 /vv221. (in the silver bottle). I was initially confused as there are 2 versions of their racing oils. A NSL " not street legal" version in the black bottle, and a "street" version, in the silver bottle.

Here is the manufacturer information on the latter:
http://www.valvoline.com/our-products/motor-oil/vr1-racing-oil
http://content.valvoline.com/pdf/vr1_racing.pdf

Summary:
Zinc 1400 ppm
Phosphorous 1300 ppm

Here is a good thread/review
(http://www.chevelles.com/forums/13-performance/398916-valvoline-vr1-oil.html)
I still wondered about the suitability for street use after my research. So I contacted Valvoline, and said "I see that Valvoline VR-1 Racing Oil 20W-50 part #822347 apparently has the ZDDP additive that my car needs. My question is does this oil also have the proper detergent package to allow street use and a 3000 mile change interval, or is this oil only intended for racing use?

They said "The Valvoline VR1 20W-50 Racing Oil will contain enough detergents to run this oil 3 months or 3,000 miles whichever comes first. This product does contain sufficient levels of ZDDP and detergents for a street driven classic automobile like your Delorean."

I'm sold. I just wanted to share the results of my research into a 20W-50 conventional oil.

I will also say that I read good things about Shell Rotella-T as well (as Rob mentioned), and the API label in the store that I visited stated that it was rated for both C (diesel) and S (gasoline) engines.

It's good to have choices.

Cheers,

[kings1527]

I really like having a full-service oil for flat tappets in our spec'd 20w-50. That makes me feel fuzzy inside. A good fuzzy. Thanks for the great research. I think I'll be going with the Valvoline VR1.

[dmruschell]

Who told you that? The guys that are selling you VR-1 for use in a PRV or '79 Vette I would bet. I just got off the phone with my wholesaler who said all modern oils contain detergent dispersants...not detergents. Its a different animal and I don't have time to explain further now. The fact remains that unless you want to waste money on an expensive premium or boutique oils you should stick to a 15-40 diesel rated oil. None of the other viscosity oils are rated for earlier flat tappet engines anymore. I explained why but nobody listened or seems to care. The original DMC manual recommendations are hopelessly outdated. IMHO if your using any other viscosity oil without sufficient ZDDP you will pay the price down the road with increased engine wear. The only oil that is guaranteed to have a sufficient amount without paying a premium is 15-40 because the government wants it that way. Therefore the only way you won't pay a premium for having sufficient ZDDP is 15-40 weight by government mandates. Everyone can argue about it all day but in the end the naysayers may learn to regret it unless I have my facts wrong. It's just going to take some time for this to play out so don't expect the ultimate answer overnight. The detergent issue is a myth created by fancy oil retailers so if you feel better believing it when paying double or triple for oil it won't hurt you...only your wallet. When you drain your fancy $12- a quart oil it's unused protection capabilities will go down the drain, along with your money, back into the waste stream of underused and oversold products.
While I'm at the pulpit it could someone (Bill perhaps) please break these topics (the other being DMCL engine EPA certification efforts) into the two unrelated threads it has become? That is the specialty of our friends over at DMC Today as I recall not that there's anything wrong with that! They are better at it via continued practice but I prefer dealing with one topic at a time as I suspect most of the Talk people do. Isn't that why you're here and not there?
Rob

Both of the oils I mentioned are available for $6/quart, which is the going price for oil around here. The VR-1 is readily available at almost all auto parts stores by the quart. The Lucas is available at most PepBoys by the quart (at an inflated $10/quart) or from Amazon at just over $30 for a 5 quart jug. No premium price needs to be paid. Besides, at one oil change per year for most owners, it really isn't a big expanse to run the right oil if it did cost a premium (which it doesn't).

I've done a lot of reading on the subject from many different sources, and almost all of them recommend against running diesel oil in gasoline engines. It's isually the first question asked by interviewers when interviewing someone about oil. Diesel oils are not designed for flat tappet gasoline engines even if they do have the right ZDDP numbers. .

I have more money invested into rebuilds of the engines in my cars than the cost of most DeLoreans, so keeping them running and not having to put more money into them due to using the wrong oil is important to me.

I find it interesting that the Castrol GTX 20w50 that DMC uses and recommends is not recommended for use in flat tappet engines by Castrol.

[dmruschell]

Thanks for the tip! As mentioned, I have been searching for a proper ZDDP, conventional, 20W-50 oil due to Florida's hot climate. A bonus requirement for me is that it is readily available in auto parts stores and at a reasonable price point.

After my research and contacting the company, I too am choosing Valvoline VR-1 Racing Oil part # 822347 /vv221. (in the silver bottle). I was initially confused as there are 2 versions of their racing oils. A NSL " not street legal" version in the black bottle, and a "street" version, in the silver bottle.

Here is the manufacturer information on the latter:
http://www.valvoline.com/our-products/motor-oil/vr1-racing-oil
http://content.valvoline.com/pdf/vr1_racing.pdf

Summary:
Zinc 1400 ppm
Phosphorous 1300 ppm

Here is a good thread/review
(http://www.chevelles.com/forums/13-performance/398916-valvoline-vr1-oil.html)
I still wondered about the suitability for street use after my research. So I contacted Valvoline, and said "I see that Valvoline VR-1 Racing Oil 20W-50 part #822347 apparently has the ZDDP additive that my car needs. My question is does this oil also have the proper detergent package to allow street use and a 3000 mile change interval, or is this oil only intended for racing use?

They said "The Valvoline VR1 20W-50 Racing Oil will contain enough detergents to run this oil 3 months or 3,000 miles whichever comes first. This product does contain sufficient levels of ZDDP and detergents for a street driven classic automobile like your Delorean."

I'm sold. I just wanted to share the results of my research into a 20W-50 conventional oil.

I will also say that I read good things about Shell Rotella-T as well (as Rob mentioned), and the API label in the store that I visited stated that it was rated for both C (diesel) and S (gasoline) engines.

It's good to have choices.

Cheers,

Yeah, some people on various forums have confused the Not Street Legal with VR-1 since they're both labeled as Racing Oil. VR-1 needs to be advertised as a racing oil since some weights have too much ZDDP to comply with current standards, but (as Valvoline said) it is a street friendly 3,000 mile oil. Many racers use that oil with good results, too.

The Not Street Legal oil is designed for 300 mile change intervals and so is purely a race oil.

:)

[kings1527]

After searching all of the usual suspects today, the only place that carried VR1 was Napa...and at a great price. $4.50/qt plus tax. It was on sale and that was even far cheaper than what you pay through Amazon. Normal was about $6.30 and that was about the same price as Castrol GTX. The only thing on the label that caught my eye was "this product is not recommended for constant use with cars that have catalytic converters", or something to that affect.

I bought 14 qts, the first change of which will happen tomorrow and then go from there.

[DMC-81]

After searching all of the usual suspects today, the only place that carried VR1 was Napa...and at a great price. $4.50/qt plus tax. It was on sale and that was even far cheaper than what you pay through Amazon. Normal was about $6.30 and that was about the same price as Castrol GTX. The only thing on the label that caught my eye was "this product is not recommended for constant use with cars that have catalytic converters", or something to that affect.

I bought 14 qts, the first change of which will happen tomorrow and then go from there.

Thats a great price! Around here, I found the oil in Auto Zone and Advance Auto Parts for $6.19 /qt. I didn't check anywhere else yet.

Re: the disclosure on the label, I have read that you can't have proper ZDDP levels and a guarantee on long cat life. I figure that protecting my valve train is more important than the risk that my cat will not last 100,000 miles.

It would be great if there was an option that gives you both.

[sdg3205]

Hey, what about zinc additive? I came across a product that claims to add the necessary zddp to any oil. It's clear and really thick.

Any thoughts?

[DMC-81]

Hey, what about zinc additive? I came across a product that claims to add the necessary zddp to any oil. It's clear and really thick.

Any thoughts?

Hi Dave,

Based on my research, I read that the oil additive can upset the oils intended chemistry. Also, in my link above, an SAE engineer posted many oil tests and one of the tests was Royal Purple with the extra ZDDP additive and it didn't perform as well as expected.

So, based on this, I avoided the zinc additive. (It would be nice to add ZDDP to the Castrol.) :(

[Mark D]

After searching all of the usual suspects today, the only place that carried VR1 was Napa...and at a great price. $4.50/qt plus tax. It was on sale and that was even far cheaper than what you pay through Amazon. Normal was about $6.30 and that was about the same price as Castrol GTX. The only thing on the label that caught my eye was "this product is not recommended for constant use with cars that have catalytic converters", or something to that affect.

I bought 14 qts, the first change of which will happen tomorrow and then go from there.


I also picked up a couple of cases of Valvoline VR1 20W-50 the other day from Napa. The starting price was 4.50 per quart and when I reserved it online it was an extra 10% off. And I had a $10 off coupon for any purchase over $50 (printed it off the internet).

All said and done I walked out the door with 12 quarts for $40.72. (3.39 per quart)

[sdg3205]

Hi Dave,

Based on my research, I read that the oil additive can upset the oils intended chemistry. Also, in my link above, an SAE engineer posted many oil tests and one of the tests was Royal Purple with the extra ZDDP additive and it didn't perform as well as expected.

So, based on this, I avoided the zinc additive. (It would be nice to add ZDDP to the Castrol.) :(

Damn, that would have made it so easy.

[DMC-81]

So, I changed my oil today with Valvoline VR1. I made a typo on the part number above. It is VV211, not VV221. Sorry about that.

40932

40934

I use a piece of aluminum foil against the frame next to the drain plug, and below the oil filter to save myself from having to clean the old oil off of the frame and engine.

40933

I have also discovered that you need to pour each quart slowly as it's very easy to overflow the filler neck.

40935


Cheers,

[StainlessSteelDream]

I have also discovered that you need to pour each quart slowly as it's very easy to overflow the filler neck.


Another tip is to pull out the dipstick when filling oil, to give the air in the oilpan another exit.

[kings1527]

Another tip is to pull out the dipstick when filling oil, to give the air in the oilpan another exit.

+1

[DMCVegas]

I have also discovered that you need to pour each quart slowly as it's very easy to overflow the filler neck.

40935


Cheers,

2 quick tips: First is the best oil funnel I've found is this one right here:

40946

It's not only nice and wide, but it locks into the PRV (and other engines) easily because it has those "teeth" on the side. Those act as spacers to let air out so you can avoid overflowing the oil out. It also will hold the bottle in place to let all of the oil drain out with no problem because it's shaped like the oil bottles.

Second, when pouring oil, antifreeze, transmission fluid, brake fluid, or ANY fluid, always hold the bottle sideways like this:

http://f.tqn.com/y/autorepair/1/W/U/s/7/-/112712301.jpg

If you do that, the air flowing into the bottle will remain smooth because the fluid can't easily rise up and block it. You will avoid the *glug* action of the liquid as it comes out. That results in avoiding any spills at all.

[Mark D]

Second, when pouring oil, antifreeze, transmission fluid, brake fluid, or ANY fluid, always hold the bottle sideways like this:

http://f.tqn.com/y/autorepair/1/W/U/s/7/-/112712301.jpg

If you do that, the air flowing into the bottle will remain smooth because the fluid can't easily rise up and block it. You will avoid the *glug* action of the liquid as it comes out. That results in avoiding any spills at all.

+1

This tip also applies when drinking beer out of a boot shaped glass. :)

http://dmctalk.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=40947&d=1458581705

[bytes311]

I switched over to Rotella-T 15W-40 last weekend because of this thread. Not sure if it's my ears playing tricks on me, but my engine sounds quieter.

[PJ Grady Inc.]

I switched over to Rotella-T 15W-40 last weekend because of this thread. Not sure if it's my ears playing tricks on me, but my engine sounds quieter.

Perhaps it's your rockers thanking you for a little ZDDP TLC!
Rob

[Bitsyncmaster]

How many cam shafts have been measured and found to have excessive wear on our PRV?

[Farrar]

Not sure if Costco has the same inventory in different areas, but I was pleased to find 15w40 at the New Orleans Costco for a good price (purchased by the gallon, of course). Can't remember what brand it was, but I can snap a pic the next time I'm there if anyone's interested.

[DMC-81]

Another tip is to pull out the dipstick when filling oil, to give the air in the oilpan another exit.


2 quick tips: First is the best oil funnel I've found is this one right here:

It's not only nice and wide, but it locks into the PRV (and other engines) easily because it has those "teeth" on the side. Those act as spacers to let air out so you can avoid overflowing the oil out. It also will hold the bottle in place to let all of the oil drain out with no problem because it's shaped like the oil bottles.

Second, when pouring oil, antifreeze, transmission fluid, brake fluid, or ANY fluid, always hold the bottle sideways like this:

If you do that, the air flowing into the bottle will remain smooth because the fluid can't easily rise up and block it. You will avoid the *glug* action of the liquid as it comes out. That results in avoiding any spills at all.

Thanks for sharing the tips!


+1

This tip also applies when drinking beer out of a boot shaped glass. :)

Excellent advice! :cheers:


I switched over to Rotella-T 15W-40 last weekend because of this thread. Not sure if it's my ears playing tricks on me, but my engine sounds quieter.
That's funny you say that! I edited a similar comment out of my post yesterday.... That's the first thing that I noticed as well on the VR1. I don't know if it's just because it's new oil, but I feel great that I learned the ZDDP lesson. (My wife thought I was crazy as I was revving the engine in the garage). :screwy: But, in comparison, the old Castrol that I removed had less than 50 miles on it...

I learned to use the proper oil many years ago on a Porsche 944 Turbo. It called for a heavier weight oil, but being young and inexperienced, I put a lighter weight oil in it. " Oil is oil!" I thought :) The car was all black, even the headliner, with tight clearances in engine bay. It ran hot. Anyway, the car began consuming oil like nobody's business afterwards. When I read the manual and changed the oil to a quality, proper spec grade, the problem disappeared. :reading:

[mluder]

So over the weekend I replaced my oil with the Valvoline VR-1 20W50. The leaking I had experienced with lower viscosity oil was almost from every seam - timing chain cover, oil pan... That seems to have dissipated quite a bit now though it seems I may still have a little seepage around the oil pan bolt heads. Also seems to be leaking at the crankshaft seal. Which is a bummer because I replaced it about 4 years ago.

Anyway... I'll keep an eye on things and see how it holds up.

Cheers
Steven

[sdg3205]

I made the switch to Rotella tonight.

I had so much left over castrol 20w-50 I actually did a full refill with fresh castrol followed by a quick drive to operating temp just to flush the engine. Even after that I still have a 5L jug of Castrol left "just in case."

I'm a Rotella man now. I have seen the light. Praise Jebus.

[Morpheus]

Thanks to Dana, I'm a converted man myself. Next oil change on my car is going to be Valvoline VR-1 20W50.

By the by, if you are looking for a decent deal on it in the Orlando area... O'Reilly's has it for $4.99/qt.
http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/detail/VAL0/RACE2050/N2202.oap?ck=Search_N2202_-1_-1&pt=N2202&ppt=C1941

[sdg3205]

In this months Hemmings Sport and Exotic

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160808/e015f120acda54e82aa3370253d17de3.jpg
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160808/f63f879bbb111b4f28206bb1c996a505.jpg

[AugustneverEnds]

After reading a bit about zinc on the two D forums and other places I decided to experiment a bit with oil. By experiment I mean see if I notice any difference whatsoever in the sound of the car, general behavior, fuel economy and how the oil looks after 3000 miles. Since I got my car in 2012 I have been using Castrol 20w-50 per DMC's recommendation. I have had no real problems with it. I just wanted to try other options after hearing about them.

I am just reaching 3000 miles using Chevron Delo 15w-40. To my ears the engine does seem noticeably more quiet. I would also venture that my fuel economy has been slightly better as well. The oil also looks more clean at this stage than the Castrol did, still some amber quality to it whereas the Castrol was black.

In this battle I am going to declare Chevron the winner. Next either Shell Rotella or Valvoline VR1

[GS450-Junkie]

Does anyone sell our oil filter? Or must they come from a vendor?

[dmruschell]

Does anyone sell our oil filter? Or must they come from a vendor?

Purolator (P)L20252
Bosch 3421

Some vendors sell the Bosch filter. DMC's unmarked filter looks a lot like the Bosch.

The premium Purolator will have the P in the part number. Their normal filter won't.

[Chris 16409]

Does anyone sell our oil filter? Or must they come from a vendor?

This is the filter I use. German made. I don't think Bosch manufactures them anymore. So find one on eBay.

45252

[AugustneverEnds]

SpecialT has a 6 pack of Bosch filters for $30 includes the copper crush washer: http://specialtauto.com/delorean-parts/engine-tuneup.html

[ccurzio]

SpecialT has a 6 pack of Bosch filters for $30 includes the copper crush washer: http://specialtauto.com/delorean-parts/engine-tuneup.html

He'll send you 3 filters and no crush washers then tell you he'll ship you the rest when they're back in stock.

And you'll never see them.

[81dmc]

He'll send you 3 filters and no crush washers then tell you he'll ship you the rest when they're back in stock.

And you'll never see them.

^This^

Unfortunately, I was a victim as a new owner. My "same as molded" sewn carpets are already falling apart.

This is a warning for any new owners: If you find his parts to be slightly cheaper, pay the extra amount at DMCH anyways. If you do buy Hervey's parts, it will end up costing you more in the long run.

[mr_maxime]

I hadnt read this before I changed my oil a few weeks ago. I got stopped by someone who wanted to look at my car. He claimed to have been an engineer in the military and did tests on various oils finding that synthetic was always better. He recommended amsoil with lucas synthetic stabilizer added. I just told him DMC recommended castrol 20w50 and to stay away from conventional oil. Like someone mentioned before, I always believed that oil discussions were like religious discussions. Always found it odd that something man-made still had so much mystery wrapped around it.

[dmruschell]

I hadnt read this before I changed my oil a few weeks ago. I got stopped by someone who wanted to look at my car. He claimed to have been an engineer in the military and did tests on various oils finding that synthetic was always better. He recommended amsoil with lucas synthetic stabilizer added. I just told him DMC recommended castrol 20w50 and to stay away from conventional oil. Like someone mentioned before, I always believed that oil discussions were like religious discussions. Always found it odd that something man-made still had so much mystery wrapped around it.

Castrol (GTX) 20w50 is conventional oil...

[AugustneverEnds]

He'll send you 3 filters and no crush washers then tell you he'll ship you the rest when they're back in stock.

And you'll never see them.

Any vendor can make a mistake. He sent me 6 filters with the crush washers taped to the bottom, no problem.

[AugustneverEnds]

Castrol (GTX) 20w50 is conventional oil...

+1

[kings1527]

Castrol (GTX) 20w50 is conventional oil...

I'm assuming he meant synthetic.

There was a vendor study on the PRV (I believe it was by Mobile 1) after DMCH told them that synthetic wouldn't be good for the PRV. The vendor came back with "yes, you're right...don't use synthetic in this car". The synthetic molecules are smaller and can cause oil leaks that you didn't have before. The big thing is to use an oil that has the appropriate amount of zinc for the flat tappet PRV. Today's Castrol 20w-50 doesn't have it as it's not the same composition as when our cars were on the market 35 years ago.

[DMCMW Dave]

I hate oil arguments and rarely join in. But here goes.

This is one of the few times I'll publicly or privately disagree slightly with the Mother Ship. I may get chewed on about this one. The official DMCH company line is what Kings1527 said, no synthetic, turned down by Mobil. Our stock recommendation is still Castrol 20W50 change every 3000 miles or when you park the car for the winter, whichever comes first. Unless specified otherwise by a customer, this is what goes out of the DMCH/dealer shops in cars.

---

My unofficial, personal opinion is that I still like Mobil 1. We've torn down quite a few engines, and the ones running synthetic are always like-new clean inside where everything else is from champagne colored to black depending on how many times it was overheated. BUT THERE ARE SOME CONDITIONS.

NEVER start using it on an engine that's already "blackened" inside. I have seen Mobil 1 screw up an engine, it's such a high detergent oil that it will break sludge loose and plug up rocker arm oilers. I've often heard the mention of additional leakage but can't say that I've seen it be much of a factor.

The unofficial "Dave" line is Mobil 1 15W50, change it every 5000 miles, only start using it in a known clean engine. I've heard of other alternatives (Delvac etc.), I'm not gonna argue them, but I have not personally tried anything else.

[mr_maxime]

I'm assuming he meant synthetic.

Yes. I meant synthetic. I just lost my train of thought while typing.

[Morpheus]

The big thing is to use an oil that has the appropriate amount of zinc for the flat tappet PRV. Today's Castrol 20w-50 doesn't have it as it's not the same composition as when our cars were on the market 35 years ago.

...And the remedy for the Zinc issue is Valvoline VR-1 20w50, which contains high zinc/phosphorus for flat tappet engines such as our beloved PRV. It's marketed as "racing oil", but it fills the bill.

http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/detail/VAL0/RACE2050/N2202.oap?ck=Search_N2202_1041219_4828&pt=N2202&ppt=C1941

[David T]

...And the remedy for the Zinc issue is Valvoline VR-1 20w50, which contains high zinc/phosphorus for flat tappet engines such as our beloved PRV. It's marketed as "racing oil", but it fills the bill.

http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/detail/VAL0/RACE2050/N2202.oap?ck=Search_N2202_1041219_4828&pt=N2202&ppt=C1941

On the subject of zinc (or ZDDP), it is a problem for just about all owners of old cars. At this point the general consensus is that if you have an older motor that was "weaned" on high zinc oils when it was young, the metals get conditioned and no longer require high levels. Adding ZDDP can be bad if the levels get too high. Not knowing just what the level is and how much you are adding can be a bad thing. If you use a good, branded oil and change it frequently, just about all of them will be good.

[mr_maxime]

I contacted Valvoline after reading their FAQ which confused me a bit. They recommended the VR1 racing oil. While looking for it on amazon I also found the Kendall oil
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B004RNSO2M/ref=psdc_15719391_t2_B00DJ4FIPQ

Would that work? Not sure what liquid titanium is supposed to do.

[David T]

I contacted Valvoline after reading their FAQ which confused me a bit. They recommended the VR1 racing oil. While looking for it on amazon I also found the Kendall oil
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B004RNSO2M/ref=psdc_15719391_t2_B00DJ4FIPQ

Would that work? Not sure what liquid titanium is supposed to do.

I would guess "Liquid Titanium" is just a marketing term, Titanium cannot be a liquid at room temperature but it sounds good. There are many oils you can buy that are branded for either off-road use or for diesel engines that are still allowed to have high levels of ZDDP. If you choose to use them don't go adding any more ZDDP than what is already in them. Amsol also sells oils with high ZDDP levels and is a very good brand if you feel you just have to use an oil with high ZDDP.

[DMC-81]

I contacted Valvoline after reading their FAQ which confused me a bit. They recommended the VR1 racing oil. While looking for it on amazon I also found the Kendall oil
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B004RNSO2M/ref=psdc_15719391_t2_B00DJ4FIPQ

Would that work? Not sure what liquid titanium is supposed to do.

Apparently titanum is supposed to be an anti wear additive, but I cannot get internet consensus on whether its marketing hype or an effective anti wear additive. Although titanum only turns to liquid at ~3100F?

Regardless, here are some oil analyses:

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/2438783/Re:_Kendall_GT1_Synthetic_Liqu

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/2050929/1

What was confusing about the Valvoline FAQs?

[mr_maxime]

What was confusing about the Valvoline FAQs?


What is the controversy surrounding the amount of zinc in motor oil?
The controversy exists as a result of many hands-on car enthusiasts and engine experts belief that lower levels of zinc in API SN and SM motor oils can cause excessive wear in older style push-rod and flat-tappet engines. They hold this belief despite the fact that all new motor oil classifications are intended to be backward compatible.

This makes it seem like it's ok to use modern oil with a flat-tappet engine.

[DMC-81]

This makes it seem like it's ok to use modern oil with a flat-tappet engine.

I guess that's up to you to decide whether it's a generic statement to maximize their target market, or whether it's true. The forum bob is the oil guy has some good information specific to brands and grades. Also, if it helps sort through corporate positions, I contacted Castrol and Valvoline about oil for the DeLorean, and posted their responses in post 73 and 82 in this thread.

I think the bottom line is that you have to be comfortable with the oil you use.

[Ras12]

I put Shell Rotella oil used on many Diesel engines in my 67 Cadillac Eldorado and it sounds and runs much better. That was the only change I made and it was a noticeable difference. I plan on doing the same with DMC for the next oil change.

[bytes311]

This is the only oil I use for my DMC.

46620

[Chris 16409]

It appears that Shell has re-branded/repackaged their Rotella line of motor oils:

49242

Not sure if the formulation has changed and what that means for our cars.

[Joe Kuchan]

What? A "what's the best oil" thread with only 130 posts? We can do better than this! This is very disappointing! 😉

[Dangermouse]

What? A "what's the best oil" thread with only 130 posts? We can do better than this! This is very disappointing! 😉

You just return to the top of page 1 and start again. It's a never ending loop, like most "best oil" threads :)

[ccurzio]

It honestly depends on your use case. I use EV Olive Oil when flavor matters, peanut oil for frying, plain old vegetable oil for dishes like biryani or seasoning a wok, and sesame oil for stir fry. I have a cabinet with about a dozen different types of oil in my kitchen.

[DMCVegas]

Oil threads are like asking which religion to join, including the cults of Amsoil & Royal Purple...

And then the conversation turns to Synthetic Oil to further look down on everyone like....

http://ih0.redbubble.net/image.171161424.7297/sticker,220x200-bg,ffffff-pad,220x200,ffffff.u1.jpg

[novadmc]

It appears that Shell has re-branded/repackaged their Rotella line of motor oils:

49242

Not sure if the formulation has changed and what that means for our cars.

came here to mention this as well. the little bit of googling ive done on it seems to indicate that its same/similar as the old Rotella T blend, just updated for some recent oil standards (specifically PC-11/CK-4 standards).
here's a link to what the new standards mean for Shell's oil: http://rotella.shell.com/products/pc-11.html
according to that link: "It will also mean that instead of one category of engine oils, we’ll have two – CK-4 and FA-4. CK-4 engine oils will be a direct replacement for the engine oils you’re using now. You’ll be able to buy the same viscosity grades and oil types (conventional, full synthetic, synthetic blend) you’re using now, and they’ll be “backwards compatible” to ALL current vehicles. They’ll just also conform to the new PC-11 standards."

its still non-synthetic
its still 15w40
dunno about ZDDP levels....

Noticed when i went to my local walmart today and all i could find of the old Rotella T was 1 1qt bottle, yet anything from 1 qt to a 5gal bucket of T4.

51359

[novadmc]

found this Virgin Oil Analysis (VOA) on bobistheoilguy for Rotella T4. it claims 10w30 but the only weight i see T4 in is the normal 15w40, so I'm going to assume the weight was a typo.

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4304492/Rotella_t4_10w30#Post4304492

Zinc levels are >1000ppm so that's good to see for our flat tappets....

[novadmc]

(probably) final post on the subject for Rotella T4
Petroleum Quality Institute of America (PQIA) reviewed it and gave it great marks.
They list Zinc levels at >=1200ppm.

http://pqiadata.org/Shell_Rotella_T4_15W40_4192017.html

[Col Bennett]

Sorry to resurface this.

After reading this thread and another at Today I'm between three oils.

1. Standard Castrol or Valvoline 20W-50 conventional oil as recommended by DMC.

2. Shell Rotella T3 15W-40 (latest version) as recommended by Rob and many others.

3. Valvoline VR-1 20W-50 with its high zinc levels as recommend by Dana and others.

I'd settled on the VR-1 but here's the catch.

I live in California and have a cat. Emissions regulations are insanely strict for smog tests etc. I obviously want to protect my engine from wear but I also want to effortlessly pass my next smog test.

I've been reading that the higher zinc levels can shorten the life of your cat. I imagine this could also lead to emissions concerns for CA smog tests.

Will the use of the high zinc level VR-1 or the Rotella 15W-40 (which contains higher zinc levels) cause issues when it comes around to smog and emissions testing?

Thanks!

[eight8toy]

I'm in CA too and when I first got my Delorean from out of state I failed the SMOG but then the mechanic ran some cleaner through the engine and got it to pass...THEN I changed the oil after lol. I ended up with the standard Castrol in mine. I feel like if you change the oil once a year any difference in oils is like splitting hairs, as long as you're talking about same weights and types (regular vs synthetic).

[Col Bennett]

I'm in CA too and when I first got my Delorean from out of state I failed the SMOG but then the mechanic ran some cleaner through the engine and got it to pass...THEN I changed the oil after lol. I ended up with the standard Castrol in mine. I feel like if you change the oil once a year any difference in oils is like splitting hairs, as long as you're talking about same weights and types (regular vs synthetic).

Yeah, that makes sense. Danny at DMC CA recommends conventional (non synthetic) 20W-50. I know that's what he put in my car when it was with him last year while it was being returned to stock. He removed the BAE turbo kit that was on the car when I bought it. It's been running regular Valvoline 20W-50 ever since with no problems but it's time for an oil change and I'm trying to figure out whether to switch it out for something with zinc - knowing in the back of my mind that I don't want to mess with my CA emissions.

PS. I meant to say "T4" in my post above in relation to the Shell Rotella.

[David T]

The levels of zinc were lowered to increase the functional life of the catalytic convertor. They want them to last over 100,000 miles. So, unless you have that many miles on your car using high zinc motor oil it is a non-issue. The good news is that if the car was started on a high zinc diet (as most cars of this era were) the metal gets conditioned and seems to be OK with a low level of zinc now. The other choice is to use a low zinc oil and add some kind of additive that purports to contain ZDDP. That gets tricky because you really don't know how much you are adding. Too much of a good thing can be bad. Get the best premium oil you can and change it every 5,000 miles or once a year.

[CriticalB]

I have the island twin-turbo setup; does this make a difference as to which oil I should use?

[David T]

Yes it does. You should be using a synthetic oil, it can handle the higher temperatures and not "coke". It should be changed once a year or 5,000 miles along with the oil filter.

[DMC-81]

So, I changed my oil today with Valvoline VR1. I made a typo on the part number above. It is VV211, not VV221. Sorry about that.

40932

40934

I use a piece of aluminum foil against the frame next to the drain plug, and below the oil filter to save myself from having to clean the old oil off of the frame and engine.

40933

I have also discovered that you need to pour each quart slowly as it's very easy to overflow the filler neck.

40935


Cheers,

I changed my oil again today and wanted to advise that the label for Valvoline VR-1 20W50 has changed somewhat. It is still in the silver bottle, but now the packaging includes some blue coloring including the cap:


http://dmctalk.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=58956&d=1546289530

So far so good with this oil.

[WHO1DMC]

I saw this on the Instagram so I thought I would put it here!
Apparently since it has a Delorean on it it's okay for our cars. Ya didn't think so!
Had to buy one all the same for the shelf. It's definitely a little spendy at $23 a 2 litter can. The old D is definitely going places.



Dave B.

[lazabby]

It's been a while since anyone posted to this thread about the engine oil. Shell Rotella was recommended. Shell seems to have changed the labels and I don't know if they changed the oil formula. They now have Shell Rotella T4 15W-40 for diesels. Is that still recommended? They have the T5 & 6 but those have synthetics.

[WHO1DMC]

It's been a while since anyone posted to this thread about the engine oil. Shell Rotella was recommended. Shell seems to have changed the labels and I don't know if they changed the oil formula. They now have Shell Rotella T4 15W-40 for diesels. Is that still recommended? They have the T5 & 6 but those have synthetics.

I'm running the T4 15w-40 currently. But in the last few years castrol came out with their new high zinc formula.
Castrol gtx classic 20w-50. This is becoming very popular.
It's at Walmart 5q for about $25 this is in limited stores but it can be ordered or 1q for about $7 this is also not on the shelf in large quantities.




Dave B.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230227/f5cd63c5d0649edbef6c23f9d546b214.jpg

[mark w]

Driven GP-1.

https://drivenracingoil.com/c-1389373-shop-by-product-gp-1-engine-oils.html