To Title or not to Title

[Shark Pilot]

So some of you may have seen that I have my DMC-12 for sale, but it's Title-less thanks to the USPS losing the Title during my second tour in Iraq. So my conundrum is this: Do I bond the title and try to sell the car that way or sell it without a title and have the new owner bond a title to try and secure a title for the car that way? Most states in the Northeast don't require a title for registration and proof of ownership comes through the Bill of Sale if the car is older than 1994. I know there are other states that are this way as well, but I'm just not sure what to do. I have proof that I own the car of course and the Bill of Sale from the previous owner, but no darn title. In addition to this, since the previous owner is a total a#$hole we had a falling out and contacting him for a duplicate title (in AZ) is not an option. Suggestions are welcome.

[Lou and "Boo"]

All I can say is that I personally would be very hesitant to buy a car with no title.

It's like buying a house with no deed. Or maybe not as bad, buying a house with permit violations that the buyer has to sort out and file for. More work for the buyer usually equals less possibility of a sale.

This is just my opinion, my two cents. You WERE asking for advice after all.

[iflights]

This was a topic of interest to me and was doing research on it as well. You mentioned you do have proof you own the vehicle. What other documents besides Bill of Sale do you have? Cancelled check from the purchase? I think the strength of the documentation will ultimately provide the direction on this.

[David T]

This was a topic of interest to me and was doing research on it as well. You mentioned you do have proof you own the vehicle. What other documents besides Bill of Sale do you have? Cancelled check from the purchase? I think the strength of the documentation will ultimately provide the direction on this.

Without a Title the car is worth a LOT less. I would contact the last State the car was titled in and figure out how to get it cleared up. Most States require a Title now. Any buyer would want one or he is just buying a parts car. Each State has it's own procedures for replacing a lost Title. The Title is proof that the car has not been totaled and there is no lien against it. A Bill of Sale can't do that.

[dn010]

Get a title - no one is really going to want to deal with title issues after handing over $30K+.

I'm pretty sure most states still require some sort of official document in order to get a title. When I purchased a 1957 Cadillac and realized the title was not signed by the owner, that is when my nightmares began. It turned out the guy I purchased the car from never titled/registered the vehicle to his name from whoever he bought the car from. I went to the DMV explaining the honest situation and they refused to accept the title without a signature and bill of sale NOTARIZED so there was no forgery going on. I had to track down the guy whose name was on the title, mail the title to him for his notarized signature and have him send it back. It was a miracle I tracked him down and he was willing to help me out, I even sent some money with the title since I appreciated it. I got all the documents, went to the DMV and they issued me a 'transferable registration'. Without all that, I would have been screwed with a car that had no title.


Then it went from NYS to FL transferring all this. When I lived in NYS I had my cars in my father's name for certain reasons including the fact I was in the Army and in case anything happened he could deal with the vehicles. My DeLorean had a title in NYS so that was no problem. The Cadillac had that tiny 4"X4" 'transferable registration' paper which was the official document in NYS for vehicles made prior to 1973. When I moved to Florida I went to the DMV with that tiny paper and handed it to the clerk, she looked up rules/statues/laws in a 3" thick book and with much hesitation on proceeding she then brought it all to her supervisor who had to go over everything. They accepted the 'transferable registration' after probably 20 minutes of deciding what to do. They took my money, printed a Florida Title for the Cadillac and off I went.

That is with an official document- transferable registration, I don't think it would be easy to get a title without something similar.

[iflights]

Without a Title the car is worth a LOT less. I would contact the last State the car was titled in and figure out how to get it cleared up. Most States require a Title now. Any buyer would want one or he is just buying a parts car. Each State has it's own procedures for replacing a lost Title. The Title is proof that the car has not been totaled and there is no lien against it. A Bill of Sale can't do that.

I'm in total agreement on all those points. I'm assuming the OP never received a signed title from the PO for the intent to transfer ownership and re-title, otherwise for the OP, this would be a simple duplicate title request. Hence this doesn't appear to be a "lost title" problem.

A bonded title is only good for X period of time. Not permanent, so that doesn't even solve OP's problem. My interest was how would the OP even prove he is the owner without documentation and without assistance of PO. As painful as it might be, the PO might be required here.

[DavidProehl]

You probably don't need more people joining the chorus, but here I go.

Title it. To most buyers, this is the only thing that really proves to them you own the car and that you are transferring ownership. You may be able to prove it in your mind other ways, but you will have a hard time proving it to possible buyers.

[Andrew]

I agree with what the others have said. Try to secure a duplicate title from the last titling state. Call the main office of the Secretary of State / DMV for the state. They will be the best possible source for securing the correct info, especially if the outstanding title is older. When I purchased 5052, I had to contact the Oklahoma Department of Revenue (they are the entity that issues titles in Oklahoma) I was able to get in contact with a very helpful employee who was able to verify the 1991 title on archived microfilm.

Be very nice and patient with the person on the phone...never underestimate the value in being somebody that people want to help. On an aside, from my experience, the worker in Oklahoma found tracking down a DeLorean title to be a fun project compared to the usual everyday tasks of his job.

Best of luck!

Andrew
4194
5052

[PJ Grady Inc.]

So some of you may have seen that I have my DMC-12 for sale, but it's Title-less thanks to the USPS losing the Title during my second tour in Iraq. So my conundrum is this: Do I bond the title and try to sell the car that way or sell it without a title and have the new owner bond a title to try and secure a title for the car that way? Most states in the Northeast don't require a title for registration and proof of ownership comes through the Bill of Sale if the car is older than 1994. I know there are other states that are this way as well, but I'm just not sure what to do. I have proof that I own the car of course and the Bill of Sale from the previous owner, but no darn title. In addition to this, since the previous owner is a total a#$hole we had a falling out and contacting him for a duplicate title (in AZ) is not an option. Suggestions are welcome.
You should be able to get a new title with ownership documentation and a paper tracing (in pencil) of the VIN in most states if you're not in a hurry. You can in N.Y. and they tend to be the toughest state on just about everything!
Rob

[DMCVegas]

It's $25 and 2-3 weeks on average to avoid a whole lotta hassle.

http://www.ct.gov/dmv/lib/dmv/20/29/h-6b.pdf

[n29we]

So some of you may have seen that I have my DMC-12 for sale, but it's Title-less thanks to the USPS losing the Title during my second tour in Iraq. So my conundrum is this: Do I bond the title and try to sell the car that way or sell it without a title and have the new owner bond a title to try and secure a title for the car that way? Most states in the Northeast don't require a title for registration and proof of ownership comes through the Bill of Sale if the car is older than 1994. I know there are other states that are this way as well, but I'm just not sure what to do. I have proof that I own the car of course and the Bill of Sale from the previous owner, but no darn title. In addition to this, since the previous owner is a total a#$hole we had a falling out and contacting him for a duplicate title (in AZ) is not an option. Suggestions are welcome.

Contrary to what so many people here have said here, it's a fact that more states than you think don't require titles for older cars, 20-25 years old or older. States like CT won't even issue a title to older cars even if you want to pay for one period! A title is great but you can't always get one. There are title companies out there that claim they can get tiles for a fee, I have no idea if they are shames or legit but it might be worth at least looking into. Many states you can get a title if you provide some sort of signed statement and other documents to satisfy their requirements. I know Mass and Texas are 2 of those states, I helped the buyers of 2 of my cars in those states get titles by giving signed statements and bills of sale from previous owners etc. hope this helps. Jim O also from CT

[Parzval]

You haven't mentioned if the title is in your name or not. If it IS in your name, applying for a duplicate is fairly easy. it just takes a few weeks. However, if it was never transferred into your name, the state will still believe it to be owned by the previous titled owner.... that would be a problem. (Unless of course you or your buyer have a "no title before 19xx year" state, since you have the bill of sale.) I myself always like to see a title, but these days I'm even wary of that because I have no idea what other states titles look like. They could be handing me a fake and I'd never know it. Such a shame that this is the society we live in these days. But good luck!

ps. Is yours on eBay right now? I saw one with no title there earlier today. I thought it was in NY though.

[Shark Pilot]

I'm in total agreement on all those points. I'm assuming the OP never received a signed title from the PO for the intent to transfer ownership and re-title, otherwise for the OP, this would be a simple duplicate title request. Hence this doesn't appear to be a "lost title" problem.

A bonded title is only good for X period of time. Not permanent, so that doesn't even solve OP's problem. My interest was how would the OP even prove he is the owner without documentation and without assistance of PO. As painful as it might be, the PO might be required here.

This chain has created more discussion than I thought it would and I truly appreciate the advice.

I don't know who the quote above is from or what "OP" is, but anybody here who thinks I'm trying to cheat someone else or that I have a stolen car is an ignorant ass. I already explained my situation which motivated the posting in the first place. The Previous Owner (PO) signed the title over to me when I was deployed to Iraq. I signed it and sent it to the Texas DMV to register it and the damn USPS lost it. The story is that simple, hence LOST TITLE. So now all I have is a bill of sale singed by the PO and a car registered in my name (in VT) because the States of CT and VT won't title a car that older than 16 years. They simply won't do it even after I begged them and told them I'd pay a premium fee.

I'll figure this out. I'll call the Arizona DMV and see if I can get a duplicate title without having to contact the PO. He was 76 when I bought the car so he might be dead anyway. His name is Robert Ray if anyone knows him, though I don't believe he was that active in the community.

Thanks to all of you who gave me good, well though out advice. To the rest, there is no need for anger here as my question was a simple one. I didn't expect the agitation that followed the question. You must chill. I own the car, I'm just trying to make it easier for the next person who buys it. I'll get a title. That's what I garnered from the responses on this posting chain.

[David T]

This chain has created more discussion than I thought it would and I truly appreciate the advice.

I don't know who the quote above is from or what "OP" is, but anybody here who thinks I'm trying to cheat someone else or that I have a stolen car is an ignorant ass. I already explained my situation which motivated the posting in the first place. The Previous Owner (PO) signed the title over to me when I was deployed to Iraq. I signed it and sent it to the Texas DMV to register it and the damn USPS lost it. The story is that simple, hence LOST TITLE. So now all I have is a bill of sale singed by the PO and a car registered in my name (in VT) because the States of CT and VT won't title a car that older than 16 years. They simply won't do it even after I begged them and told them I'd pay a premium fee.

I'll figure this out. I'll call the Arizona DMV and see if I can get a duplicate title without having to contact the PO. He was 76 when I bought the car so he might be dead anyway. His name is Robert Ray if anyone knows him, though I don't believe he was that active in the community.

Thanks to all of you who gave me good, well though out advice. To the rest, there is no need for anger here as my question was a simple one. I didn't expect the agitation that followed the question. You must chill. I own the car, I'm just trying to make it easier for the next person who buys it. I'll get a title. That's what I garnered from the responses on this posting chain.

OP means Original Poster PO is Previous Owner DPO is Dreaded Previous Owner. There is always some suspicion when it comes to Titles. Since the car was last titled in the PO's name the State is going to send the replacement title to the last titled owner at his last known address. You need to contact the State and see if there is a procedure and what to do to get a new Title in your name and sent to you. The Bill of Sale should help but you may need an affidavit notarized explaining what happened. Being a combat vet may also help and explain why it took so long to clear this up. It may require a Death Certificate if the PO has passed. The easiest way would be if the PO or his executor would cooperate. I would try contacting him first. It is worth a small payment to get his cooperation if that is what it takes. Personally I would never buy a car if it didn't have a clean Title unless I was going to part it out. I don't care how old the car is. Last resort there are companies that claim to be able to title any car for a fee. I have no experience with that but it may be a way to do it.

[dustybarn]

It sounds like your state is like NY. In our case the DMV does not title cars older than 1973. I have 3 cars like that and the only proof of ownership is the transferable registration. NYS, at any rate, is satisfied that I am the legal owner.

[David T]

New Jersey is like New York in many ways, Titles being one of them. They have been Title States for a long time and take them very seriously. Even if you have an older car and no longer require a Title, it is good to have one since it also proves the car is paid off and has never been totaled and issued a "Salvage" Title. As a potential buyer, seeing a Title is much better than only having a Bill of Sale. Bottom Line, if you can get a Title you should and the sooner the better and easier. If and when you try to sell the car, you could lose the sale if you have to tell a buyer it will take a month (or longer!) to get a Title. As long as we are on the subject, if you did finance the car you will NOT have an original Title. The Bank gets it. When the car gets paid off they will stamp it as such and send it back to you. The owner can always ask DMV for a "lost" replacement Title but it will have the stamp that the car is financed. A warning to anyone who would buy the car that the bank still has a claim against the car ahead of anyone else. When you buy a car with a Title and request a new one in your name the State will verify the car is paid off and it is not listed as stolen BEFORE they will issue a new Title. That's a good reason to Title any car you buy quickly BEFORE you spend any money on it fixing it up. The other reason is there is a penalty if you do not Title the car within so many days of the sale date.
Even if the car is financed you should ask for and keep a photocopy of the Title. It can help if the original is lost. Often happens because banks get bought and sold and the records get lost.
Finally, keep the Title (or the copy) in a safe place where you can find it when you need it along with other important personal papers.