Questions on driving a manual car

[delgato]

When I learned how to drive it was a stick shift, and then drove that car for about 10 years. About 15 years after that I just picked up a new Jeep that is manual so I am back in the saddle. I do have a manual DMC but in full dis-closer, I have not driven that car yet since it is currently "under construction".


This is not a how to drive a manual but more about some of the finer points to that.

1. Down shifting to stop.

I have heard of, and been in cars with, folks want to down shift through the gears to come to a stop. Is this correct? I have always just put it in neutral and coast to a stop.

2. Driving at low RPM

When I was reading through the booklet that came with the car it spoke of shifting at "these" speeds. What I find myself doing is shifting before the factory recommendations. What I do is shift by the sound and feel of the car. My concern is that I drive my car at a very low RPM. My question here is if there is any potential for long term engine/trans issues driving the car at a relatively low RPM? For reference this car seems to idle approx 600 and I often drive approx 1000-1500 +/-.

3. Riding the clutch

What is the definition of this exactly?

4. Better fuel economy

Rumor has it that a manual car is more fuel efficient than an auto. Is this true? Why?

The car I have has a digital MPG monitor in the dash so I watch this all the time.

I spend most all of my time driving in the grueling city traffic so I get very very low MPG. The only time It gets better is if I am able to get it in 5th gear and cruse for a while. Is there any tricks to better MPG or is it really just a matter of being in a higher gear?

5. Starting in 2nd gear

I have a Jeep Wrangler and first gear is all torque. I have done some experiments and can start the car from 2nd gear with little issues. 2nd gear feels like a regular cars 1st gear. I do not do this regularly because I am not sure if this is bad for the vehicle. Is there any engine/trans issues with starting a car in 2nd?

6. Push start (popping the clutch)

I have not done this for decades but I do remember if the battery died you can get your friends to push the car. Put the car in first gear and hold the clutch down. Once the car is at a certain speed release the clutch and the car will start. What is going on to make that happen? Does forcing the engine to move create spark? How?

7.Clutch questions

A. I find myself resting my foot on the clutch pedal when driving or waiting. It is approx less than 5% pressed. Really it is just resting enough to press the play between fully out and where pressure begins. I am sure is is not good but is it bad?

Is that also a form of riding the clutch?

B. If I sit at stop light and have the clutch held down the whole time is there long term issues by doing that?

C. Sometimes I notice that I do not press the clutch all of the way down when shifting gears. Basically I will press it enough to get it out and in gear. Is it necessary to press it all the way down?

D. What makes a clutch wear out? Is there a number like approx 100,000 presses of a clutch life cycle or is it a matter of how it is used?

Is there any other tips or tricks to driving a manual that we should consider?

Yes this is a long post but hopefully this will lead to a good discussion and help us all drive our cars better and make them last longer.

[David_NYS]

This may answer some of your questions:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clutch_control

[Josh]

When I learned how to drive it was a stick shift, and then drove that car for about 10 years. About 15 years after that I just picked up a new Jeep that is manual so I am back in the saddle. I do have a manual DMC but in full dis-closer, I have not driven that car yet since it is currently "under construction".


This is not a how to drive a manual but more about some of the finer points to that.

1. Down shifting to stop.

I have heard of, and been in cars with, folks want to down shift through the gears to come to a stop. Is this correct? I have always just put it in neutral and coast to a stop.

You can do either. It depends on my mood honestly.

2. Driving at low RPM

When I was reading through the booklet that came with the car it spoke of shifting at "these" speeds. What I find myself doing is shifting before the factory recommendations. What I do is shift by the sound and feel of the car. My concern is that I drive my car at a very low RPM. My question here is if there is any potential for long term engine/trans issues driving the car at a relatively low RPM? For reference this car seems to idle approx 600 and I often drive approx 1000-1500 +/-.

When to shift depends on how you are driving. Normal day to day driving you would want to shift as you approaching the powerband of the engine, around 3000rpm in the case of the prv. If you are drag racing you would want to shift at redline. lol. If you shift sooner you will be lugging the engine. I find it painful to drive like this but i dont see any mechanical implications.


3. Riding the clutch

What is the definition of this exactly?

Riding the clutch would imply any time the car is moving and you have the clutch partially depressed while also on the gas to any extent. You are slipping the clutch disc against the flywheel and pressure plate which causes excellerated wear and excessive heat. There are situations that call for riding the clutch but you dont want to do this alot.

4. Better fuel economy

Rumor has it that a manual car is more fuel efficient than an auto. Is this true? Why?

The car I have has a digital MPG monitor in the dash so I watch this all the time.

I spend most all of my time driving in the grueling city traffic so I get very very low MPG. The only time It gets better is if I am able to get it in 5th gear and cruse for a while. Is there any tricks to better MPG or is it really just a matter of being in a higher gear?

The manual gets better mileage than the auto as the manual fifth speed is a taller ratio than the auto third speed. This means the engine is spinning faster in an auto to keep the car going as fast as a manual. Its all in the gearing, you cant make a blanket statement for all cars that this is the case.

5. Starting in 2nd gear

I have a Jeep Wrangler and first gear is all torque. I have done some experiments and can start the car from 2nd gear with little issues. 2nd gear feels like a regular cars 1st gear. I do not do this regularly because I am not sure if this is bad for the vehicle. Is there any engine/trans issues with starting a car in 2nd?

If you are not riding the clutch to start in second then there should be no issues. The UN1 has a pretty short first gear so it is possible to do this.

6. Push start (popping the clutch)

I have not done this for decades but I do remember if the battery died you can get your friends to push the car. Put the car in first gear and hold the clutch down. Once the car is at a certain speed release the clutch and the car will start. What is going on to make that happen? Does forcing the engine to move create spark? How?

With a dead battery you have no starter. the starter spins the flywheel. You are using alternative means (the transmission) to spin the flywheel when push starting.

7.Clutch questions

A. I find myself resting my foot on the clutch pedal when driving or waiting. It is approx less than 5% pressed. Really it is just resting enough to press the play between fully out and where pressure begins. I am sure is is not good but is it bad?

Is that also a form of riding the clutch?

Avoid doing this. there is play in the clutch linkage but partially engaging the clutch will accelerate wear and generate heat, just like riding the clutch.

B. If I sit at stop light and have the clutch held down the whole time is there long term issues by doing that?

You will prematurely wear out the release bearing

C. Sometimes I notice that I do not press the clutch all of the way down when shifting gears. Basically I will press it enough to get it out and in gear. Is it necessary to press it all the way down?

If you can shift without grinding this is fine. however if ou are not fully depressing the clutch you can have a lazier shift and grind the gears as you are not used to fully depressing the clutch.

D. What makes a clutch wear out? Is there a number like approx 100,000 presses of a clutch life cycle or is it a matter of how it is used?

Depends on how you drive. The clutch disc is composed of an organic wear material, it wears away due to friction like a brake pad, etc.

Is there any other tips or tricks to driving a manual that we should consider?

Yes this is a long post but hopefully this will lead to a good discussion and help us all drive our cars better and make them last longer.

[Gregadeth]

1. Down shifting to stop.

I have heard of, and been in cars with, folks want to down shift through the gears to come to a stop. Is this correct? I have always just put it in neutral and coast to a stop.
I don't do either. The best way is to let the car slow down naturally in whatever gear it's in, and when the RPMs start getting really low (close to idle), push clutch and shift to neutral.


2. Driving at low RPM

When I was reading through the booklet that came with the car it spoke of shifting at "these" speeds. What I find myself doing is shifting before the factory recommendations. What I do is shift by the sound and feel of the car. My concern is that I drive my car at a very low RPM. My question here is if there is any potential for long term engine/trans issues driving the car at a relatively low RPM? For reference this car seems to idle approx 600 and I often drive approx 1000-1500 +/-.
Shifting at lower RPMs will get you better fuel economy, shifting at higher RPMs will get you more power. If you drive at low RPMs but feel the engine is struggling, downshift and bring up those RPMs.


7.Clutch questions

A. I find myself resting my foot on the clutch pedal when driving or waiting. It is approx less than 5% pressed. Really it is just resting enough to press the play between fully out and where pressure begins. I am sure is is not good but is it bad?

Is that also a form of riding the clutch?

B. If I sit at stop light and have the clutch held down the whole time is there long term issues by doing that?

C. Sometimes I notice that I do not press the clutch all of the way down when shifting gears. Basically I will press it enough to get it out and in gear. Is it necessary to press it all the way down?

D. What makes a clutch wear out? Is there a number like approx 100,000 presses of a clutch life cycle or is it a matter of how it is used?

A. Don't do it. I suggest you get a rest pedal if your car doesn't have one and use that instead.
B. I've heard this will wear out the throwout bearing(?) over time. If I'm at a stop sign or a quick light, I'll clutch and release. But if it's longer than a few seconds, shift to neutral and stay off the clutch.
C. If you know you're past the point of clutch contact, it shouldn't be a problem.
D. Abuse, basically. There is no life cycle. Just drive it properly and it should last a long time. Most of the clutch problems on the DeLorean seem to come from the clutch hydraulic system (master and slave) rather than the clutch itself.


Is there any other tips or tricks to driving a manual that we should consider?
Wear normal shoes, don't wear boots. These pedals are really close together.
The pedals are also too low to the floor. If there is an adjustment for this, someone please let me know. I find I have to use my heel to push the clutch in and out.
Also the clutch pedal is very heavy.
You probably already know this but just in case - for Reverse you need to pull up on the shifter, then left and back. Don't force it into gear or you'll break the reverse pin under the shifter.

[Bitsyncmaster]

I tend to down shift down to third gear and when the RPMs drop below 1500 I step on the clutch and brake to the stop. At a stop light I will normally shift into neutral so I don't have to hold the clutch. For best MPG you want to shift into higher gears as soon as you can (low RPM). You won't want to drive much below 2000 RPM since you don't have much power for any hills.

Our first gear is very low but I still always start in first gear and quickly shift to second.

[Nicholas R]

Josh's answers above are pretty comprehensive. The only things I would add are:

With regard to fuel economy, in addition to the extra gearing, a manual doesn't have the torque converter losses. A clutch is extremely efficient because once it's engaged it's a direct power transfer. A torque converter is still a fluid coupling that relies on the transfer of transmission fluid to drive the transmission. There are losses here due to slippage, heat build up, and other factors.

With regard to not fully depressing the clutch pedal, though you can short shift the transmission, it doesn't mean it's a good idea. If you're not fully releasing the clutch, you're going to wear the teeth on the synchronizers and dog gears inside the transmission faster, because they'll still be loaded while you're shifting, rather than unloaded. You see this on 2nd gear sometimes because the 2nd gear synchronizer ring doesn't have teeth on it to guide the coupler, only the 3rd/4th/5th gear synchronizers have teeth. The same thing happens when the stock plastic clutch line wears out, as it expands when the pedal is pushed, causing the clutch to only partially engage (essentially the same as only partially depressing the clutch pedal). When people keep driving under this condition, they wear out the dog teeth on their gears a lot faster. It also seems relatively common on the 3rd gear side of the 3rd/4th gear selector coupler.

Here is a picture of the dog teeth on 2nd gear. Its the teeth that your selector actually grabs onto when you shift into that gear.
41031

A lot of this may not make sense unless you're familiar with the internals of the transmission. Basically, you dont want the engine driving the shafts while you're shifting; which can happen if the clutch isn't fully disengaged.

[Dangermouse]

I was taught to shift down when approaching a red light as so that you "are always in control of the car"; the idea being that if the light changes, or someone pulls in front of you, you are already in the correct gear and can take appropriate action.

That's what happens in an auto box.

It also reduces brake component wear.

I always push start a car with the box in 2nd. Again, that's just how I was taught to do it.

[Drive Stainless]

Not meant to substitute for anything that's already been said, here are my thoughts:



1. Down shifting to stop.

I have heard of, and been in cars with, folks want to down shift through the gears to come to a stop. Is this correct? I have always just put it in neutral and coast to a stop.


It's about 10x easier to change brake pads than a clutch disc. That means if I have a choice between applying the brakes or using the clutch, I use the brakes. I do not depress the clutch more than required, and when I do, I get on and get off of it quickly. Along these same lines, never use the clutch to "hold" the car on a hill; use the brakes.




2. Driving at low RPM

When I was reading through the booklet that came with the car it spoke of shifting at "these" speeds. What I find myself doing is shifting before the factory recommendations. What I do is shift by the sound and feel of the car. My concern is that I drive my car at a very low RPM. My question here is if there is any potential for long term engine/trans issues driving the car at a relatively low RPM? For reference this car seems to idle approx 600 and I often drive approx 1000-1500 +/-.


In the case of a newer or rebuilt engine, you can be sure that your piston rings will not seal without cylinder pressure. I tend to wind my car to redline fairly often because I enjoy the sound and the acceleration. In general, drive the car the way it was meant to be driven. I have concerns about driving at 5000+ RPMs too much just the same as driving at 2000- RPMs too much.



5. Starting in 2nd gear

I have a Jeep Wrangler and first gear is all torque. I have done some experiments and can start the car from 2nd gear with little issues. 2nd gear feels like a regular cars 1st gear. I do not do this regularly because I am not sure if this is bad for the vehicle. Is there any engine/trans issues with starting a car in 2nd?


I would not start in 2nd gear unless traction is an issue. You will have to feather the clutch more carefully to avoid stalling and impose more wear on the disc in the process.


6. Push start (popping the clutch)

I have not done this for decades but I do remember if the battery died you can get your friends to push the car. Put the car in first gear and hold the clutch down. Once the car is at a certain speed release the clutch and the car will start. What is going on to make that happen? Does forcing the engine to move create spark? How?


In 1st gear, it likely will bring you to an abrupt stop. Do this in 2nd gear if your starter is broken.

[David T]

A 5-speed is approximately 10% more efficient than an automatic. Depends on how you drive of course. Try not to hold the clutch down for long periods (like at a light). The less you "ride" (slip) the clutch the longer it will last. You can also skip a gear, for instance, start in 1st, skip 2nd and go to 3rd. Generally if you downshift it will be into 1st or 2nd so you can start again, you don't downshift through each and every gear all the time. You try to select the correct gear for the speed you are going and the speed the motor is running. Usually by the sound and feel. The PRV is not a high revving engine so respect the redline. The quicker you get to the highest gear you can for the speed you are going, the better the fuel economy. Remember to lift the gearshift knob to get past the gate to get into reverse. Never shift into reverse if the car is moving. You can't push-start the Delorean if the battery is completely dead, you need something for the ignition system.

[Nicholas R]

It also reduces brake component wear.


I agree with this, but to me, I'd MUCH rather wear out my brake pads faster than my clutch. Brake pads are 30min-1hr. Clutch is a day or more (in a garage on the floor). As such, I very commonly put it in neutral and use the brakes when I'm coming to a stop, rather than downshifting through the gears.

[content22207_2]

Many Jeeps have Borg Warner T18 transmissions. I've got the same transmission in one of my pickup trucks. What is labeled "1" on the gear shift lever is really a granny gear. I made a new insert for my truck with "L" where "1" used to be (and 2-4 relabeled 1-3). T-18 gear ratios are:
6.32:1
3.09:1
1.69:1
1:1
There's absolutely no reason to start in granny gear unless you're pulling a trailer, stuck in the mud or snow, pulling a stump, etc.

FWIW: Regarding downshifting to a stop: that is standard procedure on heavy vehicles (you will fail your CDL exam if you ever free wheel). Not only does it reduce chances of the brakes overheating, but you retain ability to accelerate out of danger (blown front tire for example). Cars and light duty trucks are less of a concern.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[Mark D]

It looks like most of your questions have been answered already, but the one thing I'll elaborate on is #6 in regards to push starting a car.

You can push start or roll start a car down a hill if the battery is too low to turn the starter but it will not work with a completely drained battery. You still need to have the ignition turned on with at least a small amount of power from the battery to generate spark. Pushing the car and then dumping the clutch turns the motor over in the same way the starter does.

[DMCVegas]

I hate doing "me too!" posts. But I'm gonna have to here:

You've got a lot of good tips here. Especially about not riding the clutch pedal. Either with your left foot on top of it, or if you're using the damn thing to hold the vehicle on a hill. Nothing will eat clutches nor burn out synchro gears faster, so don't. And of course you want to press the gas more as you let off the clutch pedal.

But here is the best advise that I can give you, that no one else has:

Doesn't matter if you've driven a clutch before. You're gonna kill the engine the first time you crank it. Hell, you may even kill it a few times after. Just remember that it's perfectly normal.

No two clutches across cars are alike. The DeLorean has a HEAVY clutch compared to most modern vehicles. After daily driving mine, the first time I got behind the wheel of a 5-speed Explorer, I stomped the damn clutch into the floor it was so much lighter. On top of that, different engines have different torque curves thanks to design and tuning. So on some you may need to give it some more gas to go, and other cars/trucks not nearly as much. So it's impossible to tell you exactly how much to press down on the gas pedals.

Anyway, don't worry about killing the engine. And keep in mind that all clutches/engines are different, and then just give yourself some time to practice. You'll learn to not only listen to the engine, but you'll also learn to feel it too, and you'll automatically compensate to keep the engine going without even knowing it.

You can always get tips and pointers, and the basic "how-to's". But no one can truly teach you how to operate a clutch. It just takes practice. You can do it.

[Tillsy]

I've always come to a stop by doing a soft shift into second, doing a power assisted stop combined with regular braking, and all that torque spooling up that if the traffic lights or circumstances change whilst I am slowing down I can instantly accelerate off with - same as if you were cruising along and then shifted down a gear to overtake with.

[Tillsy]

The DeLorean has a HEAVY clutch compared to most modern vehicles.

No kidding - whenever I've been in slow and heavy stop/start traffic or cruises for a long length of time my foot ends up feeling like it has no flesh or padding left, just raw bone, from having to push that insanely heavy clutch so much. Bloody painful.

[16949]

Someone else drove my car when I was fixing it, and let out the clutch too fast in first and bucking bronco'd down the street twice. Lesson learned and I've been chalking that up to them forgetting how to drive a stick well. I've learned that my car drives best if I depress the clutch fully and slowly let it out. As long as the gear engages, aside from drive comfort, is there any negative to smoothly disengaging the clutch vs quickly letting it out?

Also, my car seems better when I let it "rest" in neutral a second before shifting into gear, is that a sign of something needing attention?

[David T]

Someone else drove my car when I was fixing it, and let out the clutch too fast in first and bucking bronco'd down the street twice. Lesson learned and I've been chalking that up to them forgetting how to drive a stick well. I've learned that my car drives best if I depress the clutch fully and slowly let it out. As long as the gear engages, aside from drive comfort, is there any negative to smoothly disengaging the clutch vs quickly letting it out?

Also, my car seems better when I let it "rest" in neutral a second before shifting into gear, is that a sign of something needing attention?

You only have to "slowly let it out" when slipping it into 1st or reverse. When moving and shifting into the other gears if you matched the speed of the motor and the speed of the car properly you can just let the pedal up quickly. You should not have to "rest" when shifting between gears. If you do not know what kind of gear oil is in the transmission or when it was last changed you should drain and refill it. At the very least make sure the level is correct.

[krs09]

Here's a silly question. When coasting to a red light in third gear let's say is it ok to just pop the trans in neutral rather then pressing the clutch and then shifting to neutral. I asked a buddy of mine and he said that it not problem and wont hurt the trans. The few times i've tried it it seems like it does'nt like it, some gears pop right into N and others feel like i'll break something if I pull any harder to get it into N. Make any sense? Can you just pop into neutral?

[David T]

Good practice and the safest way to shift is to push on the clutch every time you shift but if you are careful and really good you can shift in and out of any gear while moving except 1st or reverse. It is called "power shifting" and if you mess up you can do a lot of expensive damage. it is your car and you can drive it any way you want but for the best longevity of the drivetrain you should always engage the clutch to shift. It also is easier on your transaxle if you "double-clutch", not necessary but easier on the parts. You step on the clutch to shift into neutral, let the clutch up and them step again to go into the next gear. All the older truck and bus drivers had to do it because the old transmissions didn't have syncros. Nowadays a lot of the newer buses and trucks have automatic transmissions.

[content22207_2]

Here's a silly question. When coasting to a red light in third gear let's say is it ok to just pop the trans in neutral rather then pressing the clutch and then shifting to neutral. I asked a buddy of mine and he said that it not problem and wont hurt the trans. The few times i've tried it it seems like it does'nt like it, some gears pop right into N and others feel like i'll break something if I pull any harder to get it into N. Make any sense? Can you just pop into neutral?

Of course you can. Gears are already synchronized, so the shift rings slide right over no problem. Smooth as silk. I do it all the time in all my vehicles. Have for decades.

Sidebar: don't do that during a CDL test -- you will fail. Inspector does not want to see you freewheeling. I'd also recommend not doing it while towing -- engine braking takes a lot of wear and tear off your brakes.

Shifting into gear is a little more difficult, but also can be done no problem. You just need to exert enough pressure on the synchronizers to slow them down before sliding the shift rings over. Very hard at high RPM's, but not difficult at lower RPM's. As soon as the synchronizer and gear are meshed the shift ring will slide right over. Just put gentle pressure on the shift lever -- as soon as the synchronizer and gear are spinning at the same speed the shift ring will slide right on. If you ever need to limp a vehicle home without a clutch that's the only way to do it.

The only difference between RPM shifting and using the clutch is input shaft is still spinning. Remainder of the transmission works as usual.

First, reverse, and granny gears typically aren't synchronized -- to use them without a clutch turn the engine off, put the transmission in gear, then start the engine in gear (at a stoplight for example).

Bill Robertson
#5939

[Nicholas R]

Here's a silly question. When coasting to a red light in third gear let's say is it ok to just pop the trans in neutral rather then pressing the clutch and then shifting to neutral. I asked a buddy of mine and he said that it not problem and wont hurt the trans. The few times i've tried it it seems like it does'nt like it, some gears pop right into N and others feel like i'll break something if I pull any harder to get it into N. Make any sense? Can you just pop into neutral?

Not a problem at all. I actually do this all the time. In fact, I do this a lot while coasting at slow speed. With the bigger engine in a light car, back driving the engine (engine braking) is really aggressive. Easier just to coast through my neighborhood.