Help - Front Spring Rubbing and squeeking

[Ryan S.]

After installing a new set of LCAs from DMCMW, I have noticed more than usual spring noises from front. Today, it was getting really worse. Squeezing and boing every bumps and sharp turns. So I looked under the car and found this. Left front spring was rubbing against frame. You can see wear out spots on the spring. I have been having some issues with this side of suspension. Several months ago, left wheel was rubbing against fender and I had to readjust height and rolled front fenders.
I really don't see any obvious damages to frame and not sure what is going on. Do I have a bad spring or shock? PO added Eibach shocks and springs from DMC but not sure exactly when this was done but looks old and I think it's the first generation type.
Appreciate any advices or recommendation. Thank you.


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[content22207_2]

Does the shock absorber go down the middle of the spring? Looks like it is offset towards the wheel, but that could be an illusion. If it is in fact offset towards the wheel rather than down the middle of the spring, that might indicate the spring is sitting too close to the pivot bolt (as if the LCA spring perch was in the wrong place).

This is what mine looks like -- shock absorber very definitely goes down the middle of the spring:

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Bill Robertson
#5939

[Patrick C]

Try compressing the spring and turning it about 90 degrees and see if that helps at all.

[SS Spoiler]

I think more like 180 degrees....?

[Ryan S.]

Here are some photos. Looks like they are centered. I will ask Clint if he can rotate spring tomorrow at our tech day. Thinking about bending the sheet metal so that it won't rub but I don't see much clearance between upper control arm. If I do that then I am afraid that the upper control arm will rub against frame.

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[dblincoln3]

I recently replaced my front springs and had a lot of the same type of spring twanging sounds coming front the front end after I put everything back together. Someone on the forum suggested greasing the upper rubber spring perches everywhere it contacted the frame and spring. I took the springs back out, coated all contact points with silicone grease, and reassembled. The noises went away almost immediately on the next test drive.

[dblincoln3]

I forgot to mention that I first tried rotating the springs as others have suggested, but that did not help in my case. I think you want to have the flat end part of the spring located over the outboard side of the LCA, so that it is pointing forward on one side and aft on the other side.

[jmettee]

My car had rubber pieces on the front/rear of the spring to prevent rubbing with the frame. Basically rubber hose, split down the middle, & placed on the spring. These were on my stock springs & I transferred them to my Grady springs. Not sure if that's stock, but they work.

[FABombjoy]

Spitballing here, but were the bolts fully torqued with the suspension under weight?

Wondering if the suspension has been preloaded towards the front due to bushing bind. Or maybe incorrect stack up of sway bar components?

[Drive Stainless]

You can fuss with bending sheet metal, adding supplemental grease/rubber, rotating the spring, or you could install a pair of QA1 coilovers and forget about it. QA1 front spring diameter is over an inch less than what you have now; there's no chance of rubbing the frame. Naturally, it would also eliminate strange spring noises and the associated risks of using spring compressors.

[Ryan S.]

What does front QA1 front suspension kit includes?
i'm interested. I have a feeling that it's my spring.
Thanks

[Drive Stainless]

What does front QA1 front suspension kit includes?
i'm interested. I have a feeling that it's my spring.
Thanks

Shocks, springs, poly bushings, adjustment wrenches, and misc. hardware.

[Ryan S.]

what kind of shock?
I am actually not too familiar with QA1. Does QS1 spring lowers front end or at original height? How is it compare to Eibach, which I have one now.
I don't know if I need to change my shocks or not. Do you have price for just springs? Would they work with Eibach shocks?
thanks

[Drive Stainless]

what kind of shock?
I am actually not too familiar with QA1. Does QS1 spring lowers front end or at original height? How is it compare to Eibach, which I have one now.
I don't know if I need to change my shocks or not. Do you have price for just springs? Would they work with Eibach shocks?
thanks

It's a complete replacement.

http://m.ebay.com/itm/DeLorean-QA1-Coilover-Suspension-/291553136404

[Ryan S.]

Here is my update. I tried to bend sheet metal but couldn't get a good leverage to do so. Repositioning spring would require taking everything out so I opted not. Re did alignment and checked tire positions. All good. I sprayed lithium grease and it did the trick. No more noises. I am sure it is rubbing but I don't think it will cause any catastrophic failures. So I am just going to ignore it until I have to get new shocks or if it gets worse.

So thanks for all your recommendations and suggestions.

[PJ Grady Inc.]

I forgot to mention that I first tried rotating the springs as others have suggested, but that did not help in my case. I think you want to have the flat end part of the spring located over the outboard side of the LCA, so that it is pointing forward on one side and aft on the other side.

Yes that is the key that judging by one of the pics is being overlooked here. Ryan S. how about showing the end of each spring as they are sitting in the new LCA's and I can tell you if they are aligned correctly?
Rob

[kings1527]

I forgot to mention that I first tried rotating the springs as others have suggested, but that did not help in my case. I think you want to have the flat end part of the spring located over the outboard side of the LCA, so that it is pointing forward on one side and aft on the other side.

Now that we're tackling boating terms, I'm a bit confused. Have the bevel pointing aft towards the rear on one side, and fore towards the front on the other side? When I saw outboard side, that got me thinking the bevel of the spring should be pointed to the left on the driver's side and the right on the passenger's side.

[dblincoln3]

Now that we're tackling boating terms, I'm a bit confused. Have the bevel pointing aft towards the rear on one side, and fore towards the front on the other side? When I saw outboard side, that got me thinking the bevel of the spring should be pointed to the left on the driver's side and the right on the passenger's side.

I believe that you want the end of the spring resting on top of the LCA on the side of the LCA between the shock absorber and the lower ball joint, not between the shock absorber and the pivot bolt. That was what I was trying to describe when I mentioned the outboard side. With that alignment the tip of the the spring end would be pointing towards the rear of the car on one side (I believe that is the passenger side, but not 100% sure) and towards the front of the car on the other side (driver side).

[kings1527]

I believe that you want the end of the spring resting on top of the LCA on the side of the LCA between the shock absorber and the lower ball joint, not between the shock absorber and the pivot bolt. That was what I was trying to describe when I mentioned the outboard side. With that alignment the tip of the the spring end would be pointing towards the rear of the car on one side (I believe that is the passenger side, but not 100% sure) and towards the front of the car on the other side (driver side).

Got it. Thanks for clarifying.

[Ryan S.]

Yes that is the key that judging by one of the pics is being overlooked here. Ryan S. how about showing the end of each spring as they are sitting in the new LCA's and I can tell you if they are aligned correctly?
Rob

Rob
Here are some photos of driver side. Since passenger side is not rubbing and not making noises, I didn't take any photos. If you think it's important then I can take some tomorrow.

Red line is where the end of spring is sitting. Blue line is to show the center or mid point of LCA. So the end of spring is sitting near the middle to rear and end is pointing toward front of the car. Thank you


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[PJ Grady Inc.]

Rob
Here are some photos of driver side. Since passenger side is not rubbing and not making noises, I didn't take any photos. If you think it's important then I can take some tomorrow.

Red line is where the end of spring is sitting. Blue line is to show the center or mid point of LCA. So the end of spring is sitting near the middle to rear and end is pointing toward front of the car. Thank you


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The first pic is the only one needed. The edge of the spring needs to be moved forward about an inch and a half so it's flush with the edge of the L/H LCA. This seemingly slight alignment issue can cause big rubbing problems. Conversely (Sorry "young Padawan"...not a boating term but equally confusing!) the R/H spring should be flush with the rear edge of the LCA as "dblincoln" already mentioned. No need for a pic if it's in the right spot.
Rob

[Ryan S.]

Thanks Rob.
To reposition this spring, do I need to take out everything (LCA, UCA, and etc...) or can it be done by using spring compressors? Trying to figure out an easier way to do this.
Thank you so much

[DrJeff]

Thanks Rob.
To reposition this spring, do I need to take out everything (LCA, UCA, and etc...) or can it be done by using spring compressors? Trying to figure out an easier way to do this.
Thank you so much

I just did this task (of course I may have done it incorrectly), I removed the front hub, attached the spring compressor, left the shock and LCA in place, compressed the spring (with the clamps more to one side than the other). Once compressed I 'encouraged' the spring to turn through maybe 20 degrees at the most. To get the 40 degrees I needed, I decompressed, repositioned, and recompressed the spring.

I have the clam like spring compressor (not two separate bars type) so once it grabs the spring it really hangs on and is very stable. I'm not sure I would try this with the two separate spring compressors (one on either side) for fear that they would slip during the 'encouragement'.

[PJ Grady Inc.]

Thanks Rob.
To reposition this spring, do I need to take out everything (LCA, UCA, and etc...) or can it be done by using spring compressors? Trying to figure out an easier way to do this.
Thank you so much

Just remove the shock and install an internal compressor. Tighten until the spring is loose enough to reposition properly. Release the tension and compressor and reinstall shock....done!
Rob

[Ryan S.]

Just remove the shock and install an internal compressor. Tighten until the spring is loose enough to reposition properly. Release the tension and compressor and reinstall shock....done!
Rob
Rob
thanks for your reply. You make it sounds so easy. Looks like I would need to buy that compressor. Which brand/model should I get? Looks like there are few to chose from and not sure which will fit. If I don't want to buy that tool, can any suspension shop do this?
Thanks

[PJ Grady Inc.]

Rob
thanks for your reply. You make it sounds so easy. Looks like I would need to buy that compressor. Which brand/model should I get? Looks like there are few to chose from and not sure which will fit. If I don't want to buy that tool, can any suspension shop do this?
Thanks

I have a Snap On but you won't like the cost! Send pics of what you're looking at so I can advise.
Rob

[Ryan S.]

I have a Snap On but you won't like the cost! Send pics of what you're looking at so I can advise.
Rob


If it is going to be more than $100 then it doesn't make any senses for me to purchase. It is highly unlikely that I will use this tool again.
I might just try a local suspension shop and see if they can do this for me. Any word of advice on taking D to any suspension shop? Thanks again.

[kings1527]

Spitballing here, but were the bolts fully torqued with the suspension under weight?

Wondering if the suspension has been preloaded towards the front due to bushing bind. Or maybe incorrect stack up of sway bar components?

Question regarding this. What's the proper procedure? Should the bolts be fully torqued with the suspension loaded while on the ground or unloaded while on a rack/jack? Thanks.

[content22207_2]

At the factory suspensions were assembled with the frame in the air. This is clearly visible throughout the the Celebrating the Impossible book. You also can see it in the various documentaries (I believe the BBC Car Crash documentary shows trailing arms being attached with ordinary socket wrenches).

Bill Robertson
#5939

[content22207_2]

(I believe the BBC Car Crash documentary shows trailing arms being attached with ordinary socket wrenches)

31:56. Bare frame, clearly in the air.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[kings1527]

31:56. Bare frame, clearly in the air.

Bill Robertson
#5939

Right you are, Bill. Thanks.

[content22207_2]

Community wisdom is the car will spiral out of control if the suspension isn't tightened with the wheels on the ground.

Pages 174-175 of Celebrating the Impossible clearly disagree (let's be brutally honest: whatever its shortcomings, Dunmurry didn't have an army of workers laying on the factory floor tightening suspension bolts).

I assembled my front suspension with the car on jack stands. Hasn't given me a lick of trouble -- yet....

Bill Robertson
#5939

[Bitsyncmaster]

Question regarding this. What's the proper procedure? Should the bolts be fully torqued with the suspension loaded while on the ground or unloaded while on a rack/jack? Thanks.

Stock bushings have rubber bonded to internal steel bushing. That bonding makes the rubber add forces when it is flexed. So if you tighten the bolts at full extension of the front control arms, your ride height may be higher because of those forces. Poly bushings "float" on the internal steel bushings and do not have that problem with the stock bushings.

[content22207_2]

I humbly disagree.

Having removed the outer steel sleeves from OEM control arms, which is an ordeal even with an air chisel, I highly doubt that the bushings are moving within the arms -- the only way the arms can move up and down is by pivoting on their aptly named bolts. That includes suspensions assembled at full extension, as pictured in Celebrating the Impossible.

The reason cars rode nose high from the factory is because the front springs were simply too long.

Loosening and re-tightening the front pivot bolts with the car on the ground will not lower OEM ride height.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[Bitsyncmaster]

I humbly disagree.

Having removed the outer steel sleeves from OEM control arms, which is an ordeal even with an air chisel, I highly doubt that the bushings are moving within the arms -- the only way the arms can move up and down is by pivoting on their aptly named bolts. That includes suspensions assembled at full extension, as pictured in Celebrating the Impossible.

The reason cars rode nose high from the factory is because the front springs were simply too long.

Loosening and re-tightening the front pivot bolts with the car on the ground will not lower OEM ride height.

Bill Robertson
#5939

When you tighten the bolt, the ends of the internal metal bushing is locked to the frame via fiction. The bolt gets no rotating forces on it. If it did it would require carter pins on the nuts.

[content22207_2]

Again, I humbly disagree.

Contact area of the inner sleeve and the frame is limited to the outer face of the sleeve.

Contact area of the outer sleeve -- which is hydraulically pressed in, thank you very much -- and the arm is outrageously larger: much larger circumference throughout the entire width of the arm.

It is patently obvious that the inner sleeve rotates against the frame rather than the outer sleeve rotating in the arm.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[Bitsyncmaster]

Again, I humbly disagree.

Contact area of the inner sleeve and the frame is limited to the outer face of the sleeve.

Contact area of the outer sleeve -- which is hydraulically pressed in, thank you very much -- and the arm is outrageously larger: much larger circumference throughout the entire width of the arm.

It is patently obvious that the inner sleeve rotates against the frame rather than the outer sleeve rotating in the arm.

Bill Robertson
#5939

I have to disagree. If that sleeve rotated it would chew up the frame and your bolt would become loose.

[content22207_2]

Pictures don't lie. Pick any of dozens of pictures in Celebrating the Impossible. Page 175 shows frames are far as the eye can see being assembled with their suspensions hanging in the air (chassis closest to the camera is getting ready for the knuckles). This is how the factory did it. Wheels didn't go on and the car didn't sit on the ground until it was driven off the Tellus carrier at the very end of the assembly sequence.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[content22207_2]

I have to disagree. If that sleeve rotated it would chew up the frame and your bolt would become loose.

Sleeve rotates against the frame, not within its rubber (sleeve is vulcanized to the rubber -- it can't move without the bushing being damaged).

They're called "pivot bolts" for a reason. Bushing just sits in the arm -- both inner and outer sleeves -- as the arm goes up and down on the bolt.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[content22207_2]

Surely you're not saying that the pivot bolt itself rotates in the frame every time the arm goes up at down.

There is a small amount of clearance between the control arms and the frame (it's not as though you have to spread the shock tower to change the lower control arm; pivot bolt does not compress the shock tower against the control arm).

Bill Robertson
#5939

[content22207_2]

There is a small amount of clearance between the control arms and the frame

Correction: there is a large amount of clearance between the control arm and the frame -- totally forgot that I put some USS washers between my control arms and the shock tower pivot tubes to take up the slack. This afternoon I will take some pics.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[Drive Stainless]

Fun little debate going on here. What I suspect happens is that the inner sleeve and bolt remain locked in position to the frame, with the majority of the suspension movement occurring within the twisting tolerance of the rubber between the inner and outer sleeves of the bushing. When that twisting tolerance is exceeded, the inner sleeve rotates on the bolt; this would happen when lowering the vehicle onto the ground after hanging in the air with the suspension at full extension.

Bill thinks that the inner sleeve rotates on the bolt 100% of the time.

Dave thinks the inner sleeve rotates on the bolt 0% of the time.

I think Dave is probably more correct, but Bill is correct when the the bushing rubber has reached its twisting limit.

Dave Swingle will come by soon and tell everyone how it really is.

[content22207_2]

a) There is plenty of inner sleeve clearance on the pivot bolt (it's not as though you have to drive them in and out -- they install by hand)

b) There is beaucoups of clearance between the shock tower and the control arm (so much so that on my Byrne arms I added washers between the arm and the shock tower to take up the slack)

You do the math.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[Bitsyncmaster]

a) There is plenty of inner sleeve clearance on the pivot bolt (it's not as though you have to drive them in and out -- they install by hand)

b) There is beaucoups of clearance between the shock tower and the control arm (so much so that on my Byrne arms I added washers between the arm and the shock tower to take up the slack)

You do the math.

Bill Robertson
#5939

When you torque the bolt that clearance goes away.

[dn010]

With my LCA torqued and the spring removed, the inner sleeve of the bushing did not rotate when I moved the arm up and down. I do not have excess clearance on my frame for the inner sleeve, it has to be wedged in back and forth in order to get the inner sleeve into the frame.