It was running perfectly all day, and then...

[Morpheus]

GM everyone.

Yesterday, I had my D out for a nice drive after a couple of weeks of door work. It drove like a dream. Not a stutter or a hiccup. Stopped for lunch, it fired right up after. Made another stop, (less than 10 minutes) the wife and I get in the car, fire it up, and get ready to shift into reverse. It was at that moment the car decided to just stop running.

I started running through what it could be, knowing that since it started right up it likely isn't a fuel related "hot start" issue. (the accumulator and o-ring replaced less than 6 months ago). I did the WUR plug swap anyway, and it did try to turn over, but immediately died again.

I pulled the (possibly original) RPM relay and whacked it on the ground a couple of times. Plugged it back in, I could hear the pump prime when the key is turned on. (Which would indicate that it is working, no?) Still, no dice.

I didn't have a jumper with me, so I couldn't do the jump the terminals trick.

I had the car towed home. Once there, I made a jumper and as I suspected it still wouldn't turn over. I believe I have almost ruled out a fuel issue at this point. I still have to take off the air cleaner and try pressing down the metering plate.

After talking to a fellow owner, he suggested that it could be spark related. I'm starting to think he could be right. He told me about a diode that lives in the fuse box area that could be the culprit.

So now I ask my DMCTalk brethren... Ideas as to what it could be? I'm a little under the gun to get it started long enough to get it up my driveway and in the garage, as there is a tropical storm coming my way.



TL;DR: Car was running, and then stopped. No warning.

[Michael]

Look at the coil connection plug on the left side of the firewall. Sometimes they come loose. Other than that check your fuses and if that doesn't work then time to break the multimeter out and start tracing backwards.

[Morpheus]

Look at the coil connection plug on the left side of the firewall. Sometimes they come loose. Other than that check your fuses and if that doesn't work then time to break the multimeter out and start tracing backwards.

The wire that leads to the distributor?

[Rich]

...I'm a little under the gun to get it started long enough to get it up my driveway and in the garage, as there is a tropical storm coming my way.

This addresses your time-crunch problem, not the non-start.

There may be a way to get the car into the garage in its current state - is it a 5-speed and is the battery in good shape? If so then you can move it slowly in an emergency even if the engine won't start.

[Christian Dietrich]

Also if you still have the original fuel pump setup the pickup hose from the screen to the pick hose could have collapsed? You would hear the pump but have no pressure. Also shoot some starting fluid in the M/C unit air meter. If it starts then you know you have a fuel problem and if it doesn't you know you have a spark problem

Sent from my SM-N920P using Tapatalk

[Morpheus]

This addresses your time-crunch problem, not the non-start.

There may be a way to get the car into the garage in its current state - is it a 5-speed and is the battery in good shape? If so then you can move it slowly in an emergency even if the engine won't start.

It is a 5-spd. I can certainly try that as a last resort.


Also if you still have the original fuel pump setup the pickup hose from the screen to the pick hose could have collapsed? You would hear the pump but have no pressure. Also shoot some starting fluid in the M/C unit air meter. If it starts then you know you have a fuel problem and if it doesn't you know you have a spark problem

Sent from my SM-N920P using Tapatalk

I forgot to mention, it has the new DMCH pump setup. I'll try pushing down the flap a bit.

[mr_maxime]

I agree with Michael. Check the connections under the coil cover and make sure that the wires are seated properly in the plug. My ignition coil came loose within the plug once and kept the car from running. Might not be the issue but it's really quick and easy thing to check.

[nkemp]

Make sure the inertia switch is not tripped. I drove mine to get the AC serviced and when they went to pull into the garage it would do everything but fire. Turns out the bigfoot service guy tripped the inertia switch. The inertia switch is supposed to kill the fuel pump but in my case it didn't (yet another thing for the ToDo list).

My car also had missed the inertia switch recall and would simply go to sleep while driving (I recognize that pose on the flatbed). Turned out to be a bad inertia sw.

Yours may be a different problem but it is a simple check. You can check the plunger or bypass the switch temporarily. I do not recommend eliminating the switch from the circuit for life safety reasons (of you and your car).

[Michael]

I agree with Michael. Check the connections under the coil cover and make sure that the wires are seated properly in the plug. My ignition coil came loose within the plug once and kept the car from running. Might not be the issue but it's really quick and easy thing to check.

Actually I was referring to the single wire from the computer to the coil. It runs through the firewall behind the driver seat but the plugs under the coil cover and coil wires are woth reseating as well(might just be a loose plug on the coil output itself). Basically I check quick and "known" issues (both fuel and fire) before going to the next, more involved diagnostics.

[Bitsyncmaster]

Does your tach move when your cranking the engine over (trying to start it)? If not, your ignition ECU is probably gone bad or the pickup coil connection is bad.

[mr_maxime]

Lol Michael I realized that afterwards. I just jumped to that since that's where my issue was, but I did check those too

[Jonathan]

I'll put another vote in for loose electrical connection.

Either the ballast resistor connections or the ignition wire (these were red originally if it helps find it) running from the centre of the electrical distributor to the top of the ignition coil (under the bulkhead cover).

While your trouble starting doesn't sound directly related to the recent work inside your doors, it might be related to something that got bumped or moved or temporarily disconnected. Could be the inertia switch, could be the electrical end of the ignition switch. Still sounds to me like something came loose and you haven't found it yet.

[Morpheus]

I agree with Michael. Check the connections under the coil cover and make sure that the wires are seated properly in the plug. My ignition coil came loose within the plug once and kept the car from running. Might not be the issue but it's really quick and easy thing to check.

All the connections under the coil cover are snug.


Make sure the inertia switch is not tripped. I drove mine to get the AC serviced and when they went to pull into the garage it would do everything but fire. Turns out the bigfoot service guy tripped the inertia switch. The inertia switch is supposed to kill the fuel pump but in my case it didn't (yet another thing for the ToDo list).

My car also had missed the inertia switch recall and would simply go to sleep while driving (I recognize that pose on the flatbed). Turned out to be a bad inertia sw.

Yours may be a different problem but it is a simple check. You can check the plunger or bypass the switch temporarily. I do not recommend eliminating the switch from the circuit for life safety reasons (of you and your car).

If I can hear the pump prime when I turn the key to second position, would that rule out the inertia switch? I did check it, it's not tripped.


Actually I was referring to the single wire from the computer to the coil. It runs through the firewall behind the driver seat but the plugs under the coil cover and coil wires are woth reseating as well(might just be a loose plug on the coil output itself). Basically I check quick and "known" issues (both fuel and fire) before going to the next, more involved diagnostics.

I checked that wire, it's still plugged in nice and tight.


Does your tach move when your cranking the engine over (trying to start it)? If not, your ignition ECU is probably gone bad or the pickup coil connection is bad.

It drops to 0 when I turn the key on, I haven't observed the needle moving durning cranking, but then again I wasn't really looking.

Thanks for all the suggestions, gents. Since the most pressing matter at hand is getting the damn car into the safety of the garage, I took Rich's advice and moved it via the starter and got it almost all the way in. As my driveway has a decent incline, I killed my battery and (very likely) killed the starter.

Went out and bought a new battery, and I don't even get a click on the starter. So, my car sits like this now:
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I have wheel chucks on the back to keep it from rolling back anymore. Anyone in the Central FL area wanna come help push? LOL.

[Michael]

Wasn't there anyone around to help you push it in?

As for what to do now, (fuses checked I presume) get your multimeter out and start at the coil wire and work backwards.

[David T]

Wasn't there anyone around to help you push it in?

As for what to do now, (fuses checked I presume) get your multimeter out and start at the coil wire and work backwards.

A squirt of Ether to narrow down spark or fuel. I suspect spark. My guess is a bad connection or a bad impulse coil.

[Drive Stainless]

When my fuel pump went bad, the car would start and then shut down a few seconds later. I could do this repeatedly.

[Morpheus]

Thanks again for the troubleshooting help, guys... I have a lot to go on now.


UPDATE - Got the car safely in the garage, thanks to my bro-in-law and friends Derek (Dmage) and his sister Ash. Thanks guys!

Next step: Remove original (Paris-Rhone) starter, inspect and either rebuild or replace. Dana (DMC-81) has graciously offered to help me rebuild it if it's possible. I'm thinking the rebuild route is going to be more cost effective than the Eagle Premier replacement...

I got under the car and realized that I have to take off the DMCH oil filter in order to get the starter out. It's been about 3k miles, so might as well do an oil change while i'm in there. Valvoline VR-1 20w50 this time, for sure.

Another thing that I noticed while under the car: my CV joint boots are torn completely on both (wheel) sides. Ugh. May as well pull and clean/rebuild those as well. This is shaping up to be a lengthy downtime.

Once the starter is fixed or replaced, I can move forward with troubleshooting the original issue. Gotta love problems that snowball into other repairs.

[Jonathan]

Thanks again for the troubleshooting help, guys... I have a lot to go on now.


UPDATE - Got the car safely in the garage, thanks to my bro-in-law and friends Derek (Dmage) and his sister Ash. Thanks guys!

Next step: Remove original (Paris-Rhone) starter, inspect and either rebuild or replace. Dana (DMC-81) has graciously offered to help me rebuild it if it's possible. I'm thinking the rebuild route is going to be more cost effective than the Eagle Premier replacement...

I got under the car and realized that I have to take off the DMCH oil filter in order to get the starter out. It's been about 3k miles, so might as well do an oil change while i'm in there. Valvoline VR-1 20w50 this time, for sure.

Another thing that I noticed while under the car: my CV joint boots are torn completely on both (wheel) sides. Ugh. May as well pull and clean/rebuild those as well. This is shaping up to be a lengthy downtime.

Once the starter is fixed or replaced, I can move forward with troubleshooting the original issue. Gotta love problems that snowball into other repairs.

Hey Brandon,

Just a suggestion, but you might want to focus only on the repairs and troubleshooting for your current no start problem, and wait to do the other things until that is resolved. I say that only because if you start changing out a bunch of things, you can quickly lose track of what was good and what wasn't. CV joint boots aren't likely to be causing you your issues with not getting the car to start, but some of those "while you're in there" items are better done proactively and not together with sorting out a specific problem you hadn't planned on.

[Morpheus]

Hey Brandon,

Just a suggestion, but you might want to focus only on the repairs and troubleshooting for your current no start problem, and wait to do the other things until that is resolved. I say that only because if you start changing out a bunch of things, you can quickly lose track of what was good and what wasn't. CV joint boots aren't likely to be causing you your issues with not getting the car to start, but some of those "while you're in there" items are better done proactively and not together with sorting out a specific problem you hadn't planned on.


I completely agree. I will be addressing the starting issue first, but I won't be driving the car around with ripped CV boots.

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[content22207_2]

Damaged/destroyed CV joints are not the end of the world.

CV joints xRef to Porsche 930. Shop around and you should be able to find them for $30-$40 each (I scored 4 Meyle Made in Germany off eBay for $120 delivered). They're only held on by C clips. Quick to change, but a tad messy.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[DMC-81]

For the Drive axles, unless they were making noises, you probably just need to replace the boots, not the whole CV. It's great that we have a cross reference on the actual CV's though. I read in another thread that they have to be supported during disassembly ( I.e. Don't allow one end to dangle ) otherwise you can bend the flange.

That's a job that I still have to do. My boot kit in my parts bin includes plastic tie wraps, but I remember reading that Nick got metal ones from McMaster Carr . I want the metal ones. If you go that route I may join you on the order. We'd just have to figure out the 2 sizes needed.

Cheers,

[Morpheus]

To be clear, I intend on rebuilding/repacking the CV joints, not replacing them. Rebuild kits are cheap, and though it is a messy job I have read that it is pretty straightforward.

[DMC5180]

I was out with a group of Midwest owners over the weekend. Saturday evening after dinner we all get in our cars to leave and 1 car suddenly will not fire. It is late and dark. The First thing I check is the top RH terminal on the Ballast resistor. It felt really odd. I had the owner try to start again and it fired up instantly BUT the terminal started randomly glowing with little red hot spots. Reminded me of flashing fireflies. Fortunately another owner had a pair of pliers and I was able to tighten the terminal and everything seemed fine and we all left for the evening. The next day we met up for a caravan drive to a nearby British car show. I went to recheck the connection again on that car in daylight. It was a good thing I did. I found the black terminal cover completely melted and the wire insulation was burned away about an inch from the terminal. Needless to say, I cut the damaged wire back to good wire and installed a new terminal on the spot. I also cleaned the ballast terminal with sand paper. Problem Fixed and we all headed off to the show for what turned out to be a very nice event.

The point to this is make sure those resistor connections are tight.

Dennis

[81dmc]

If you do end up shopping for a new coil, buy the Bosch blue that has the resistor built in and remove the stock ballast resistor. This negates the possibility of a connection issue later on.

[DMC5180]

I did not know that option was out there. How do you deal with the starting by-pass circuit?


Dennis

[81dmc]

I did not know that option was out there. How do you deal with the starting by-pass circuit?


Dennis

It is all handled by the coil as it self-regulates.

[Andrew]

To be clear, I intend on rebuilding/repacking the CV joints, not replacing them. Rebuild kits are cheap, and though it is a messy job I have read that it is pretty straightforward.
I replaced the cv boots and repacked the joints on 5052 last year. Each side took one night, but I wasn't rushing either. It's certainly a project that can be completed on a Saturday. Both boots can be replaced with only one side of the joint disassembled. The process is well documented in the archives. I used some zip ties to keep the joint together during the rebuild. BTW I used a coffee can filled with mineral spirits to clean the joints out.

[DMC5180]

It is all handled by the coil as it self-regulates.

So basically the whole by-pass circuit could be removed? Good to know


Dennis

[81dmc]

Here (http://www.ebay.com/itm/191556518804?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT) is the coil with the built in resistor. Part number 00012 or 0 221 119 027.

[Andrew]

To verify whether your problem is fuel or spark related, you can always squirt a little carb cleaner or starting fluid in the intake. If the car starts up (or at least tries to) then you have a fuel delivery problem. If it won't start then your issue is spark related.

If you don't already have one, invest in a multimeter. The $10 one from Wall Mart / $5.99 at Harbor Freight is all you should need. As others have said, start by working backwards. A nicer one with an DC amp probe is nice, but they cost a lot more.

If your issue is spark related, A few things to check are pulse coil resistance, the ballast resistor and connectors, and the coil / connections. Also verify that fuses 1 and 7 are good.

[Lenny]

I hope you got in inside. Here comes Colin.

The leading edge just him my house

43520

[Morpheus]

I hope you got in inside. Here comes Colin.

The leading edge just him my house

43520

I did, thankfully.

[Morpheus]

If you do end up shopping for a new coil, buy the Bosch blue that has the resistor built in and remove the stock ballast resistor. This negates the possibility of a connection issue later on.

If I do end up replacing the coil with the one you posted, what do I do with the wires on the stock resistor?

[81dmc]

Bill explained it on Today.



To bypass the resistor grid altogether, connect White and White/Yellow wires together. Resistance will be zero, and voltage into the coil will be full charging voltage (~13.5 volts).

[Morpheus]

Progress Update:

For those of you following along, I now have 2 problems to deal with: the original issue with the car dying and refusing to start, and the newest issue... it won't crank after I "bumped" the starter repeatedly while in gear up my driveway. In order to troubleshoot issue #1, I had to first deal with issue #2.

I was able to remove my starter and inspect the situation, and something told me to check the solenoid. After pulling it apart, I saw what happens when you engage the starter for extended periods of time..

43599
The cap was melted to the contact on one side.

I installed the NOS solenoid and re-installed the starter, since I had no real way of "bench testing" it beforehand. To my delight, the car cranked but didn't turn over. Issue #2 fixed.

Next, it was on to figuring out why it wouldn't turn over. I primed the system a few times by turning the key on and off. Now that I had access to tools, I removed the air cleaner and checked for fuel pressure. I pushed on the metering plate and it gave no resistance. None. Hmm.

Jumped the RPM relay, and same issue. Even though I saw a little spark when I plugged in the jumper, the pump wasn't running. I un-plugged the fuel pump connection and busted out the multimeter. Jumped, 12 volts at the harness connector. RPM relay, 12 volts while cranking. The pump is getting power, but is silent. It doesn't vibrate or pulse at all. I think it's the problem.

It's a newer style DMCH pump, and I haven't ever heard of anyone having any issues with them. It was installed on the car when I bought it, but I have no idea as to any warranties they may offer. Anyone have any insights or advice?

[Chris Burns]

I haven't heard of anyone having trouble with the combo unit fuel pump except of the silly check valve on the first units that had to be installed. Maybe that failed?

Just my two cents Brandon.

[Bitsyncmaster]

Your the first to have a dead pump with the new unit that I know of.

By the way, us old guys say the engine does not fire to indicate the starter is turning the engine over but it's not running. I get confused when you say it cranks but does not turn over. Maybe it's just the way I think.

[Drive Stainless]

The new style pump failed on me after 2500 miles. I sold it as-is on eBay and went with an Autozone unit.

[nkemp]

How are you measuring the 12Vdc at the harness? You should measure from the hot to the ground in the harness. But even if it shows 12Vdc, there may not be enough current flowing to run the pump. I'd jumper the inertia switch and see if that helps. As I recall, you can jumper the inertia sw with a paperclip but don't run it for long. The paperclip, even a bigger one, is not large enough gauge.

I had inertia sw problems. It would run, then not. The car would quietly die and end up getting a ride/pull home. Since I changed out the inertia switch It has not died. It has a Ford Mustang inertia switch installed now.

The original inertia switch has a metal ball in the housing. If that ball or the contacts get corroded it will not run the pump. But it is possible to show 12Vdc through the sw and not run the pump. Once you put a load inline with the meter then it falls to zero.

If it still will not run with the inertia sw jumpered, then it is pointing to the pump.

[Morpheus]

I haven't heard of anyone having trouble with the combo unit fuel pump except of the silly check valve on the first units that had to be installed. Maybe that failed?

Just my two cents Brandon.

Thanks, Chris. I installed my check valve a few months back, and I don't know that they go bad.


Your the first to have a dead pump with the new unit that I know of.

By the way, us old guys say the engine does not fire to indicate the starter is turning the engine over but it's not running. I get confused when you say it cranks but does not turn over. Maybe it's just the way I think.

I didn't know if the proper term was crank or turn over... haha.


How are you measuring the 12Vdc at the harness? You should measure from the hot to the ground in the harness. But even if it shows 12Vdc, there may not be enough current flowing to run the pump. I'd jumper the inertia switch and see if that helps. As I recall, you can jumper the inertia sw with a paperclip but don't run it for long. The paperclip, even a bigger one, is not large enough gauge.

I had inertia sw problems. It would run, then not. The car would quietly die and end up getting a ride/pull home. Since I changed out the inertia switch It has not died. It has a Ford Mustang inertia switch installed now.

The original inertia switch has a metal ball in the housing. If that ball or the contacts get corroded it will not run the pump. But it is possible to show 12Vdc through the sw and not run the pump. Once you put a load inline with the meter then it falls to zero.

If it still will not run with the inertia sw jumpered, then it is pointing to the pump.

I had a good NOS (w/white paint splotch) inertia switch that I installed as well as a precaution before testing the fuel pump voltage at the wire harness end. White/purple wire to pos, blk wire to neg. I should add that when I had by front end apart a few months ago, I cut off the fuel pump and sender connectors and crimped on new ones. The connections are solid and tight.

[Morpheus]

UPDATE:

After troubleshooting the issue to the fuel pump, I called James at DMCH and asked about replacing the internals of the unit. As it turns out, the replacement fuel pump was only about $100, so that should alleviate any fears that this new modern setup is not serviceable in a cost-effective manner.

Since there are no "instructions" for this procedure, i had to sort of wing it on the disassembly. I found what could have been the root cause of the problem all along:
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This, my friends, is the pickup filter on my pump. Could this have been what caused my pump to die an early death? I'm thinking so. Keep in mind, the PO installed this back in 2012 and either A: didn't do a good job of cleaning the tank out beforehand, or B: mixed his gas with dirt and rubber bits before filling up. I'm leaning towards A.

If anyone needs me, I'll be cleaning out my fuel tank before installing my new pump internals.

[Drive Stainless]

So the internal pump is replaceable by the end user? What tools did you need to purchase?

[Morpheus]

So the internal pump is replaceable by the end user? What tools did you need to purchase?

None.

DMCH does loan you a set of special pliers that are presumably used to remove the Feed and Return lines from the top of the pump, but mine were easily removed by squeezing the clips by hand and pulling them off. Other than that, it's just a matter of cutting the old plastic internal hoses off, removing the electric connection at the pump, and careful disassembly of the lower part of the unit.

The new hoses provided are rigid, and must require some love from a heat gun to soften them enough to push onto their respective nips. I'm still waiting on some guidance on that front.

[Morpheus]

UPDATE:

Last night I was able to drain and wipe out the tank, which wasn't too bad because all the rubber bits were in the pickup filter. Installation of the replacement fuel pump component wasn't bad, but connecting new plastic hoses was a chore. DMCH loaned me a set of pliers to assist in connecting these hoses, which helps, but they are very rigid and fight back. The solution was to add a little bearing grease on the ends which helped them slide on a bit easier, but it still took a lot of effort.
43700

The lone problem child was the return line. I couldn't get that one to seat all the way down, but since that line isn't under pressure it should be ok.
43701

The re-assembled pump, ready to go back in.
43702

What is with this forum and sideways photos? Anyway, I installed the pump unit and added some gas. I jumpered the RPM relay (to pressurize the system and check the pump for activity), and it's humming right along. Swapped the RPM relay back in, started the car, and it sputtered to life.

Thank you all for your troubleshooting assistance, I greatly appreciate it. I do believe that I will continue to investigate some other parts of the ignition system such as my coil, as it is 35 original and probably worn out.