Intermittent Starter Operation

[82DMC12]

Hi everyone,

Wondering if anyone has run into this before (what am I thinking, of course someone has!)

This week I have had to drive my D to work and back since my daily is in the body shop for hail damage. Yesterday I tried to start the car, and the starter would not engage. I could turn the key to Start, the relay would click behind me (I assume the Main Relay, under the lock module, closest to the passenger seat?), however the starter would not turn. I let off the key and tried again, nothing, then tried again, then it started. I got the car home and parked it in the garage. Then this morning, I had the same thing - the first few tries, just clicking, no starter. Then suddenly it worked!

Note that about 2 months ago I had what I thought to be the exact same problem, however after replacing the solenoid with a new one from Grady, I learned my battery had a bad cell (voltage dropping way too low to start when there is a draw). So, here is what I know:

- I replaced the battery with a new Napa Gold battery about 2 months ago. Meter reads 12.8V when the car is sitting not running. 13.6V when engine is running.
- Replaced the starter solenoid 2 months ago
- This morning unplugged the wires from the Main Relay and put them back on, in case any were loose. Still took a couple tries before the starter would engage.

I'm guessing it is either a flaky solenoid or a wire has come loose on the solenoid. Maybe the main relay is bad.

By the way, car is manual trans.

Any ideas?
Andy

[Ron]

Hi everyone,

Wondering if anyone has run into this before (what am I thinking, of course someone has!)

This week I have had to drive my D to work and back since my daily is in the body shop for hail damage. Yesterday I tried to start the car, and the starter would not engage. I could turn the key to Start, the relay would click behind me (I assume the Main Relay, under the lock module, closest to the passenger seat?), however the starter would not turn. I let off the key and tried again, nothing, then tried again, then it started. I got the car home and parked it in the garage. Then this morning, I had the same thing - the first few tries, just clicking, no starter. Then suddenly it worked!

Note that about 2 months ago I had what I thought to be the exact same problem, however after replacing the solenoid with a new one from Grady, I learned my battery had a bad cell (voltage dropping way too low to start when there is a draw). So, here is what I know:

- I replaced the battery with a new Napa Gold battery about 2 months ago. Meter reads 12.8V when the car is sitting not running. 13.6V when engine is running.
- Replaced the starter solenoid 2 months ago
- This morning unplugged the wires from the Main Relay and put them back on, in case any were loose. Still took a couple tries before the starter would engage.

I'm guessing it is either a flaky solenoid or a wire has come loose on the solenoid. Maybe the main relay is bad.

By the way, car is manual trans.

Any ideas?
AndySounds like it is charging and the battery is good. Not likely the new solenoid...maybe connection.
I'd swap out the starter relay (activates but not passing current to the solenoid, bad points) first. If that doesn't do it, try connecting a long jumper wire to the battery and work back from the solenoid, relay output wire, relay input wire (then try key switch),...etc.
Make sure it is in NEUTRAL of course!

[82DMC12]

Sounds like it is charging and the battery is good. Not likely the new solenoid...maybe connection.
I'd swap out the starter relay (activates but not passing current to the solenoid, bad points) first. If that doesn't do it, try connecting a long jumper wire to the battery and work back from the solenoid, relay output wire, relay input wire (then try key switch),...etc.
Make sure it is in NEUTRAL of course!

Hi Ron, I guess you are talking about Relay #10 on this diagram: https://www.specialtauto.com/delorean-parts/relay-compartment-references.html

Do you think this is something I can get a NAPA? Also, does the Main Relay have anything to do with this circuit? Should I replace that one too?

Thanks for the help! I'm at work and wondering if it will start later :-/

Andy

[Ron]

Hi Ron, I guess you are talking about Relay #10 on this diagram: https://www.specialtauto.com/delorean-parts/relay-compartment-references.html

Do you think this is something I can get a NAPA? Also, does the Main Relay have anything to do with this circuit? Should I replace that one too?

Thanks for the help! I'm at work and wondering if it will start later :-/

AndyYes , #10. Try swapping it with the relay to the right of it, #11, or #1 thru 4. They are all the same unit. Double check that the numbers stamped on them match, tho!

Yes, my NAPA and AutoZone can get them. Take with. They may look a bit different but are usually higher rated, a good thing. But to avoid confusion, I'd get one from Rob or DMCMW, if yours is bad.

[dn010]

I had this same issue and it turned out to be a loose ground connection. I tightened everything up and cleaned the mating area where the starter engages the bell housing and my troubles are over.

[82DMC12]

I had this same issue and it turned out to be a loose ground connection. I tightened everything up and cleaned the mating area where the starter engages the bell housing and my troubles are over.

Thanks guys. Dan, is the starter ground simply the connection to the bellhousing? And then the next ground in that chain would be the engine ground to engine cradle on the pass side I assume?

Andy

[dn010]

Yep, there is no actual ground wire going to the starter itself. It relies on the connection to the bell housing. My "protection plate" that is smushed between the starter and bell housing was full of rust and so were the bolts so all that needed cleaning. As an added bonus, while I had the starter out I also cleaned up the + cables connecting to it so that could have also been another key to fixing it. As you mentioned, while you're at it you may as well check the engine to frame ground strap - I also did my battery ground, and I think I even cleaned the ground that is by the coil.

[Ron]

+1 Dan -- Grounds are always suspect on a DeLorean LOL -- And with it using the most power on the car, I should have mentioned it..

You can check the ground with the same logic - Connect a GOOD jumper cable directly to the battery. Then working backwards, connect the other end of the cable to the Starter Casing,frame strap, frame....etc

[82DMC12]

Thanks guys for the ideas. Luckily the car started first try after work so I got home and parked it. Tomorrow I head to Europe for a few days but when I get back I will be running through a few checks. I'll update soon as I can!

Andy

[David T]

The symptom can also be caused by dirty, sticking, worn brushes in the in the starter. Bad connections can also be possible.

[Andrew]

+1 on the relay. Also the solenoids on these starters seem to be prone to arcing. However I've had good luck disassembling the solenoid and cleaning the contacts with a Dremmel tool with a grinding stone bit. Once the starter is removed, splitting it from the solenoid and taking the solenoid apart took a matter of minutes, which was certainly a worthy time investment as opposed to replacing the starter :-)

[DMC5180]

Andy,

I've also been having a similar but random issue with this. The first time it happen was at DCS Dayton in the show tent. Just out of the blue I turned the key and nothing. Our good friend Don Steger happened to be near the car so he took at a quick look and in the end it turned out to be a loose connection at the Starter main power wire. I managed to retighten the nut some but was limited because of the headers being in the way. The rest of the trip and travels had no surprises. Then last fall I went to leave my house the for MN apple orchard day and it did it again. Same thing I snugged the nut and things were fine. Last weekend on my way to a gathering in Illinois we pull in to a walgreens an 1.5 hours into the drive and it did it again. I grabbed the wire to the starter and it moved. I could not address it other than wiggle the wire but that was all It took and it fired right up. No further issue the rest of the weekend.

The only thing I can think of that would cause the wire loosening is the Solenoid cap is failing( hot stud melting the cap. When that happens the split lock washer under the nut expands and draws the contact bolt head into the Cap (melted plastic). I had this issue many years ago and was fortunate at the time to be able to just replace the Solenoid cap. I think its happening again but this time Im going to replace the Starter with one of the Lightweight EAGLE style units. Hopefully the solenoid on those units are more robust with a Bak-a-lite cap instead of plastic.

[82DMC12]

Thanks Ron and everyone else. I was out of the country for a while but I'm back and looking at this problem again. I tried to go to NAPA and get a new starter relay. Looking at the old one there was no brand name or anything on it, just a diagram and a couple of numbers which weren't helping the clerk. Guess I'll just order one from a vendor. The relay I have now is black plastic and is probably about 20 years old.

[AugustneverEnds]

Any updates on this? I am having a similar issue. Twice now the starter would not engage and only after waiting 15 minutes or so and kind of jiggling the key in the ignition did it get going. A lot of the time it feels like on my car you need to have a light touch as if the starter engages before the key travels fully in the tumbler. I will start by cleaning the bellhousing ground

[DMC5180]

Check the all the Nut connections at the starter solenoid. I recently replaced my starter with the Eagle lightweight starter. Upon removing the starter I discovered the nut on lower solenoid stud was loose. The split lock washer was completely relaxed with no tension on it. This is the second time I've had this happen over the years.


Dennis

[AugustneverEnds]

Will do. Starting simple and hoping for the best!

[82DMC12]

Hi guys,

Seems like I'm too busy lately for this sorta thing, BUT - I just replaced the starter relay with a new purple one from DMCMW. Still won't start. I can feel the Main Relay clicking when I turn the key so I know the fuse box area must be good. I am going to get out there this afternoon and take off the oil filter and pressure switch and see if I can get to the starter solenoid again. Possible it is not tight, but I will also remove the starter-to-bellhousing bracket and clean it up. I remember there was some paint on it, maybe I will just polish it bare and it put back on. Is it supposed to be painted? Seems like that would insulate the connection.

Andy

[DMC5180]

Andy,

Can you tell if the solenoid is engaging (Pulling in)?


Dennis

[82DMC12]

Unfortunately I'm working on it solo, so can't confirm that.

[DMC5180]

Actually you can if you make a by-pass jumper wire. You need about a foot. Strip both ends. Insert one end ( back probed ) into the WHITE/red wire in the front bottom white bulkhead connector. Take the other end and touch the jump start post.

Pull the blue connector from the CSV first. Make sure your in neutral with P brake set.


Dennis

[82DMC12]

Hi Dennis,

Pretty sure I know the problem now... white/red was touching my header and burning up. Exposed crispy copper. I'm going to strip back into the harness and solder in some new wire.

Any thoughts on what gauge wire I should use and if it is any special type? Something I can get on a Saturday at a NAPA or something? Would be great to get this thing fixed today!!

Andy

[DMC5180]

If you can count the individual wire strands I can cross it to the AWG size. It's a British thing.

28 = 14 Ga

44 = 12 Ga

65 = 10 Ga

Dennis

[82DMC12]

Both white/red wires need to be replaced. One is 14 strands, the other is 24 strands. My plan is to buy some new wire and solder it using this guy's method:

http://econofix.com/wirepair.html

See towards the end of the page.

Andy

[DMC5180]

Thats smaller than I was expecting.

14 = 18 Ga

I'd guess the 24 might be a mis-count. It's likely 28 strand = 14 GA

[82DMC12]

Thanks a lot... headed to NAPA....

I'll see if they have some kind of insulation that can go over the wires to protect it from the heat down there too.

[dn010]

Your link won't work but use a good length of heat shrink over the repair.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

[Bitsyncmaster]

Thats smaller than I was expecting.

14 = 18 Ga

I'd guess the 24 might be a mis-count. It's likely 28 strand = 14 GA

I remember checking the small wire in the DeLorean and it computed to about 19 AWG. I usually use 16 AWG when doing new wiring on those low currents because most of the crimp terminals are made for that gauge wire.

[82DMC12]

Well, took longer than I expected to repair (all afternoon!... but also cleaned all the connections and main chassis ground) and now the car is starting every time. I did a better job running the wires and zip-tying them together so they make one big stiff cable on the passenger side. I'm 99% sure that the white/red was touching the header (definitely burned up anyway, charred to the bare wire) and shorting out when I try to start the car. I guess that would make the solenoid fail to engage? Lucky that the amperage is low on that wire or it could have started a fire. Nothing very close to the exhaust now. I'm crossing my fingers that I won't have any more starting problems for a long time!

Andy

[dn010]

Cheers. Glad it is back to operational status!

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[82DMC12]

Spoke too soon!!!

The car had no trouble starting three times within 10 minutes after I finished working on it. Tonight I figured I'd take it out and get it nice and warmed up and put some fresh gas in. Being paranoid I decided to test the starter at the end of my driveway before I took off. Shut the car off... waited a few seconds, turned the key... nothing. Just clicks. Checked the battery - 12.8V. This time I tried Dennis's suggestion of jumping between the bulkhead plug and the positive post. It started right up! Quickly drove back into my garage... put the connectors back in place... won't start.

What does that mean? The problem is not in the engine area but is in the electrical box or ignition switch?

I replaced the starter relay today with a new purple Bosch from DMCMW. I can feel the main relay clicking when I turn the key. I haven't made any wiring changes in years, so I don't think I "did anything" recently that would cause it.

Ideas??

Andy

[dn010]

It's time to take the starter out and bench test it.

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[82DMC12]

It's time to take the starter out and bench test it.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

I'm trying to figure out how the starter itself could be the issue. If I am feeding it power straight to the solenoid, bypassing all the relays, that confirms the starter is just fine, right? It was actually rebuilt by a starter shop about 10 years ago.

[dn010]

Removing the starter will:

Allow you to clean to the mating surfaces and wire studs.

Allow you to bench test the starter to confirm both it and solenoid are working.

Inspect the overall condition of the starter and repair& lube what is necessary especially if you must open it up.

The last thing you want is to turn the key a distance away from your house only to hear a click. Better to remove it now and mark it off of your list of items you've been over.

Also, it's not highly likely but check your bulkhead connections to be sure the white/red wire connection in particular is good. I had a lot of corrosion and connection issues back when I used to have those bulkhead connectors!

PS my last eagle starter only lasted about 12 years before the solenoid went bad. I picked up two replacements at $20 each so I just changed the whole unit as opposed to the solenoid only.

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[82DMC12]

Well yes, I don't doubt that removing the starter for bench testing would be beneficial even if for no other reason but to check it off, however I have a stage 1 exhaust which means I will have to drop out the passenger side header, replace exhaust gaskets, all kinds of stuff to get the starter out. I will need to order gaskets before I do that, so really taking out the starter is last resort. Really sucks , and definitely a downside to Stage 1.

I would think however that jumping the white/red at the bulkhead connector to +12 post and getting it to start as opposed to No Start when turning the key has already suggested that the starter and solenoid (which I replaced with a new OEM solenoid from Grady a couple months ago right after this problem started) are fine and that the problem is somewhere between the key and the bulkhead connector.

Guess I will have to spend some quality time with the multimeter tomorrow.

Andy

[DMC5180]

I'm trying to figure out how the starter itself could be the issue. If I am feeding it power straight to the solenoid, bypassing all the relays, that confirms the starter is just fine, right? It was actually rebuilt by a starter shop about 10 years ago.

If you tried the by-pass thing and it worked every time, how many attempts have you made with the key? when you turn the key to start, does the inhibit relay click every time? Lastly, verify you have the Brown wire running from the Fans speed thermal trip breaker to terminal 30 of the inhibit relay. If that was too have a bad connection or somehow come off either end you lose power to the starter solenoid even though the relay clicks.

This last one came up in another thread a couple days ago. http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?14119-Help!-Cooling-fan-circuit-breaker-wiring-where-does-this-wire-go

[82DMC12]

Dennis, I tried the key probably 15 times over three or four minutes. Rolled the car up closer to the curb in case I had to leave it overnight. Tried a couple more times, then made the jumper, put the key in ON, and touched the terminals. It turned over right away and honestly scared me for a second! Then I did it again, long enough to get the engine to start, and then promptly drove into the garage. I put the bulkhead back together once I was in the garage and tried to start with the key.... no start. It sounded like the relay was clicking every time.

Good call on the brown wire, didn't know that. I'll be looking in the AM.

[82DMC12]

OK... FIGURED IT OUT

Went back to the start inhibit relay and checked spade 30 like Dennis said. It was good.... but then I looked at the rest of the spades.... white/red was pushed down far enough in the socket that it was probably not making connection. It clearly "clicked" into place when I pushed up from below. I'm sure it got dislodged at some point when I was checking the relay. This time I seated the relay while holding the wires in place from underneath.

All this started when I was trying to diagnose a no-start caused by a battery with a bad cell , but it had me chasing the starter solenoid and relay for quite a while until I brought the battery in and found it was bad. Since then I have had intermittent issues... this must have been the culprit.

Started right up once I got it seated.

Hope this thread helps some other poor soul in the future!

Andy

[DMC5180]

Great news! One thing for sure is the soft polyethylene plastic housings can easily have a terminal push out. I'n your case it was terminal 87 the opposite of 30.


Dennis