Does this engine look familiar?

[sdg3205]

So now and then I search my local craigslist for deloreans and related stuff for shits and giggles. This engine popped up.

43739

I'm thinking Its total BS. Usually is. I email the guy and he says its zero miles. So I ask for pictures of the left and right sides of the engine figuring he won't be able to produce them and he sends me these:

43740
43741
43742
43743

So now I'm wondering if it's BS or not. Wasn't there just one or two legend manifolds produced? This thing is a carbon copy of the original. Scam?

Anyway I asked if I could see it and he said it "just sold" and pulled the ad down.

BS or somehow legit? Wondering if anyone recognizes these pictures or literally took them. I couldn't find them anywhere online for any scammer to steal, but that doesn't mean they aren't there.

[SS Spoiler]

calling Ed B?

[Mark D]

The fact that it's mounted to the stand seems familiar...I sort of remember some kind of display engine being sold a couple years back. It was something that was intended to be used at shows to display the next gen engine for the cars but then the company went belly up. Someone pieced together the half assembled engine good enough to be displayed but I don't think the internals are there for it to actually run. At least thats what I'm remembering off the top of my head. I'll try to find that other thread.

EDIT:
http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?2137-Legend-Prototype-engine-for-sale-again

http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?10819-Ed-B-selling-an-ebay-item-worth-watching&p=159211&viewfull=1#post159211

http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?1582-Found-a-few-Legend-Turbo-parts&p=19964&viewfull=1#post19964

http://www.autoblog.com/2009/08/19/ebay-find-of-the-day-delorean-twin-turbo-prototype-engine/

[Rich_NYS]

I recently read something, not recalling what/where, but I think Ed was mentioned.

[DMCVegas]

I'd probably call shenanigans on this one.

See, the empty mock-up engine that DMC had on display was built off of a 2.7L PRV, which while it had K-Jetronic, was equipped with an Auxillary Air Valve instead of the Constant Idle Speed rotary valve (aka CIS). The AAV system required you to set the warm idle speed via the 3 brass screws on the Butterfly Assembly. The AAV was designed to bump up the Idle Speed while cold and while the A/C was running by popping open an alternate air tube which bypassed the butterflies. It only has two positions: on or off. Kinda like a kicker solenoid on a carburetor.

The CIS system which we use is a rotary valve which automatically fine-tunes the engine to a precise, predetermined RPM speed under any variety of conditions. So when BOSCH switched over to this system, the manual brass screws were abandoned and are designed to be permanently closed.

But that wasn't the only change...

Take a look at the picture below. Notice that there is an additional hose between the Manifold Tubes, and it has a "Tee". The Tee connects to the oil filter cap for crankcase ventilation. When BOSCH introduced the new Idle Speed System, they did away with that tube and then just connected it into the Cold Start Tube instead.

http://i.imgur.com/7Stv3Y2.jpg


According to the records online I've seen, it looks as though one of the preproduction Alpines *did* use that tube, but otherwise they did not. So they don't have the bosses in place on the Manifold Tubes. Like our production cars, the castings are blank in those areas. But the mock-up PRV that DMC created was early enough that it did indeed use that hose.

There is a whole lot more to the Legend Engines than just a couple of RHB-5 turbos, plumbing, and some brackets. Real engines had lots of work done on the inside too. Even with all of that, you've got the whole Bias Boost Control system to figure out. A nice little mechanical system which converts the units into pseudo-variable geometry turbos.

I'd take any such claims on the legitimacy of this engine with a grain of salt.

[sdg3205]

Absolutely. Just bizzare not to try and get any money from me and pull the ad.

[Dangermouse]

Honestly, that doesn't look like how I remember the pictures in the scam mentioned above looking like. For one, it had the transmission attached.

http://www.blogcdn.com/jp.autoblog.com/media/2013/02/dlt-22.jpg

http://www.blogcdn.com/jp.autoblog.com/media/2013/02/dlt-24.jpg

No belts, accessories either

[DMCVegas]

That one looks like the original that DMC actually DID have on display, and was used as an advertising tool at the various conventions and auto shows around the United States to encourage dealers to buy-in. And of course was devoid of any internal parts as it had to be transported from venue to venue and needed to remain as light as possible. Take a look at the right side of the screen:

https://youtu.be/sueqDrq9VBw?t=7m1s

Ed B. from what I hear DID toss in some internals and tried to drive the car around, but it never ran correctly. But the one on the stand looks to be a knock-off unless someone else has new info.

The unit also looks hacked all to hell. It's missing both it's intercoolers, and whomever worked on it last bolted the turbos back on mounted them wrong. The compressor outlets are supposed to be completely vertical in order to flow directly into the intercoolers above.

[FABombjoy]

The unit also looks hacked all to hell. It's missing both it's intercoolers, and whomever worked on it last bolted the turbos back on mounted them wrong. The compressor outlets are supposed to be completely vertical in order to flow directly into the intercoolers above.
In the photos posted by Dangermouse: The compressor housing bolts were probably loose which is why they're clocked wrong. The 90 degree elbows suggest it may have been originally intended for a pontoon-mounted intercooler setup, which would explain why the intercoolers are missing.

Regarding the Craigslist engine, it's almost a dead ringer for the scan on this page:
http://www.pjgrady.co.uk/#!legend-press-engine/c1fhu

The CL engine is a better match for the engine shown on the Legend scan than actual engine photos on that same PJ Grady page:
-Neato alternator tensioner bracket
-Black painted valve covers and water pump / alternator pulleys
-Vacuum nipples on the W pipe (these appear on other Legend engines (https://static.wixstatic.com/media/3d11d1_6dd3835e70184a35bd1880259ccae314.jpg/v1/fill/w_782,h_537,al_c,q_85,usm_0.66_1.00_0.01/3d11d1_6dd3835e70184a35bd1880259ccae314.jpg))
-Long rubber hoses from compressor to intercooler instead of solid tube w/ couplers
-Formed silver aluminum tube for turbo oil drains instead of black tube w/ couplers

What doesn't seem to match:
-The 5 bolt discharge flange suggests they are not a RHB5 or RHB52 turbos. It looks a lot like a certain type of Garrett 5 bolt flange but my vintage turbo knowledge is pretty weak. The scan may or may not show the RHB5 4-bolt flange. The resolution is too low to tell.
-The pass-side manifold has something funky going on at the turbo inlet flange. Looks squared off instead of rounded. Compare to the more graceful appearance here. (https://static.wixstatic.com/media/3d11d1_147addac8d424be0abd9a14821de49f7.jpg/v1/fill/w_482,h_335,al_c,q_80,usm_0.66_1.00_0.01/3d11d1_147addac8d424be0abd9a14821de49f7.jpg)
-One cogged v-belt and one standard v-belt?

What a strange thing to show up on CL and then disappear. Genuine missing Legend piece or A-game trolling?

[DMCVegas]

In the photos posted by Dangermouse: The compressor housing bolts were probably loose which is why they're clocked wrong. The 90 degree elbows suggest it may have been originally intended for a pontoon-mounted intercooler setup, which would explain why the intercoolers are missing.

I don't believe so. Now going over some of the LE engines installed, the manifolds worked as as spacers to keep everything symmetrical up top. The compressor discharge ports always face straight up. Even on cars such as Mark Levy's with the intercoolers inside of the pontoons, it appears as though there is just a 90° elbow on top of the hose that connects to the relocated intercoolers horizontally.

The turbo on the right side does look like an RHB5 flange. Compare it to the gasket right here:

http://shopping.kinugawaturbo.com/images/products/detail/outlet.jpg

Here's what that engine looked like before it got all hacked to bits by Ed B.

http://www.blogcdn.com/jp.autoblog.com/media/2013/02/dlt-18.jpg

And then here is a close-up of the left turbo as it once was:

43748http://www.blogcdn.com/jp.autoblog.com/media/2013/02/dlt-28.jpg

From what I have read, that should be key to demonstrating that this isn't a functioning Legend engine. There is supposed to be a tee in that wastegate hose to connect in with the manifold for the Bias Boost Control system.

https://www.google.com/patents/US4336688?dq=fred+dellis&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjt6aS_z6_NAhXH1R4KHVRmCWcQ6AEIHDAA

The Alpine test cars appear to have the plumbing for the system opposite the throttle on the left side. If I am wrong about that though, someone please chime in and correct me.

The other threads previously mentioned state that there is a potential Legend "clone" over in the Nederlands. And I'm using that term lightly because I've no idea about what the internals are, let alone if the boost control system was replicated, installed, and tuned. This craigslist engine appears to be that clone.

Personally, I believe this to be a scam. Scammers have tried, and quite often failed to hit up the DeLorean community, not realizing how tight-knit we all are. I remember eBay auctions with multiple photos that not only were clearly of mismatched cars, but even when the looked alike we saw owners linking to various websites to show where the photos were stolen from. This is probably just another person trying to scam as well, which never seems to work with us.

[DMCVegas]

What doesn't seem to match:
-The 5 bolt discharge flange suggests they are not a RHB5 or RHB52 turbos. It looks a lot like a certain type of Garrett 5 bolt flange but my vintage turbo knowledge is pretty weak.

Oh hell, I was looking at the wrong pictures! No, you're correct. Those are NOT IHI RHB5 flanges at all, and do appear to be Garretts. Definitely NOT a Legend engine at all.

[FABombjoy]

I don't believe so. Now going over some of the LE engines installed, the manifolds worked as as spacers to keep everything symmetrical up top. The compressor discharge ports always face straight up. Even on cars such as Mark Levy's with the intercoolers inside of the pontoons, it appears as though there is just a 90° elbow on top of the hose that connects to the relocated intercoolers horizontally.

I'm thinking of this engine:
43749


Oh hell, I was looking at the wrong pictures! No, you're correct. Those are NOT IHI RHB5 flanges at all, and do appear to be Garretts. Definitely NOT a Legend engine at all.

Certainly could be the Ed B engine, or photos of it then.

If someone gave me that motor and I wanted to get it running but didn't care so much about originality, I'd probably ditch the IHI turbos as well. I was in brief possession of an Island kit and decided on a single Garrett for my car instead. Much better availability and far more configuration options.

Looking at the photos they may be GT25 or GT28 turbos.

I've read references to this Legend boost control system but haven't seen pictures of it. Have any technical details been published? I'd think it was just like the Bosch / SAAB APC. Primitive but better than nothing. Out of curiosity I've always wanted to know how they handled spark retard. My guess was a distributor with an advance & retard vac advance mechanism. Certainly not this nonsense "bash the advance weight with a hammer" approach of the BAE & Island kits :D

[DMCVegas]

I've read references to this Legend boost control system but haven't seen pictures of it. Have any technical details been published? I'd think it was just like the Bosch / SAAB APC. Primitive but better than nothing. Out of curiosity I've always wanted to know how they handled spark retard. My guess was a distributor with an advance & retard vac advance mechanism. Certainly not this nonsense "bash the advance weight with a hammer" approach of the BAE & Island kits :D

I posted the link to Fred Dellis' patent, but here is it again:

https://www.google.com/patents/US4336688?dq=fred+dellis&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjt6aS_z6_NAhXH1R4KHVRmCWcQ6AEIHDAA

The patent there describes both the abstract on how the system functions (kind of like the WUR's vacuum enrichment circuit), and a basic schematic and descriptions of parts involved. The wastegates are continually actuated by both exhaust manifold pressures, as well as intake manifold pressures. So large turbos will give an immediate boost upon take-off, but then the wastegates crack open further and further to produce a steady amount of boost until it evens out. It avoids pre-detonation, lets you use lower-octane fuels, maintains engine compression ratios, doesn't work the engine as hard to prolong it's life, increases fuel economy by consuming less fuel at higher speeds, and maintains lower combustion chamber temps. Which further reduces wear & tear, lessens the chances for pre-detonation, and finally reduces NOX emissions. It's a helluva design. Here's a quote from an old article about the 924 turbo system:

This ability to have your cake and eat it too is the result of a major breakthrough in turbocharger design – bias boost control. It works this way. A pressure signal from the exhaust upstream of the wastegate and vacuum signal from the intake manifold are fed together in a predetermined ratio directly into the wastegage. This pressure/vacuum ratio, the wastegate actually "sees" is a function of the velocity of the exhaust gases and the depression in the intake manifold. Both of these, in turn, are a function of the throttle opening and the engine rpm. Tricking the wastegate in this fashion means that with an 11-psi relief spring in the wastegate, the turbocharger produces 9 psi of boost from 2800-4800 rpm; from 4800 to redline the boost progressively drops to 5 psi.

Dellis originally started selling aftermarket kits under the Windblown Systems moniker to Porche 924 owners. Later after he formed Legend Industries, LI first partnered with Fiat to turbocharge the 124 Sport Spider before DeLorean

http://i.imgur.com/KpOp5.jpg

The Alpine prototypes appear to have the vacumm lines plumbed into the manifold up top. I imagine that the final designs probably tucked them away underneath and kept them hidden.

If you're wanting to see a functional overview of how the system works, I'd recomend seeking out either an installation guide for the Windblown Systems Porsche kit, or a factory repair manual for the Fiat Spider's Legend Turbo.

But if you even wish to replicate the Bias Boost Control System, you'll need to know what to internally beef-up, and most importantly what the sizes are for those vacuum orifices and poppet valves. I've no idea what the mathemetical formula Fred Dellis uses to calculate those parts based upon engine torque curves, and I've been rebuffed in the past when I just outright asked for the data from various sources.

[FABombjoy]

I posted the link to Fred Dellis' patent, but here is it again:

https://www.google.com/patents/US4336688?dq=fred+dellis&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjt6aS_z6_NAhXH1R4KHVRmCWcQ6AEIHDAA

That's really something, thanks for the info. Will do some further reading!


But if you even wish to replicate the Bias Boost Control System, you'll need to know what to internally beef-up, and most importantly what the sizes are for those vacuum orifices and poppet valves.
It's interesting stuff but a modern boost controller can supersede the features of the system - including the "scramble" boost spike - without turning my boost control system into K-Jet junior :D

[DMCVegas]

It's interesting stuff but a modern boost controller can supersede the features of the system - including the "scramble" boost spike - without turning my boost control system into K-Jet junior :D

Yeah, pretty much.

The Porsche and Fiat manuals, again, would give you a good understanding of the system. But it is also my understanding that Legend did quite a bit of work inside of the PRV as well, as unlike the ease they had with Fiat there was a problem with the cylinder liners coming loose under too high of a boost since the PRV isn't a solid block design.

Given the rarity of parts, the exchange rates for Euros/Pounds, and the pushback I got when I asked about the control system, I gave up on turbocharging the PRV. I'd probably spend a bit more on money and fabrication and have an engine swap that would pay out higher dividends on performance.