Cold Start Valve fires when hot.

[dmcnc]

Greetings from Florida!

I've been having Hot Start Flooding issues for a while. My Cold Start Valve engages on crank regardless of engine temperature. I tested the Thermal switch with a multimeter and the W and G ohms looked good for above and below 95F categories so my guess is it’s working correctly: over 100 Ohms when hot. With the CSV disconnected, car requires open throttle when cold (as expected), and starts up like a dream when hot (doesn't requires an open throttle). I pulled the CSV out, plugged the air pipe, and placed the CSV in a bottle for testing. The Hot-Start relay is not jumped.

Results:CSV activates when car is cranked even under hot conditions. CSV, however, does not leak fuel at all once you let go the crank, which tells me the valve is working as its told. The active CSV on hot starts has been flooding my car for a while. Question is, what's making it go off with the starter under hot start conditions if the TTS is working correctly? Is there any way/where CSV and starter circuits could cross?

-Rafael

[content22207_2]

Try to ring the other TTS terminal (Blue/Black) to ground (body of the pump) when the coolant is hot. If it rings through, the TTS isn't breaking contact in response to hot coolant temperature.

Whenever Blue/Black is grounded through the TTS the cold start injector will spray while cranking (Red/White).

The TTS uses a bimetalic strip to make and break contact, just like an old fashioned turn signal flasher. Wouldn't surprise me if that strip eventually wears out just like an old fashioned turn signal flasher. Only difference: replacement turn signal flasher only costs a couple of dollars.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[dmcnc]

Try to ring the other TTS terminal (Blue/Black) to ground (body of the pump) when the coolant is hot. If it rings through, the TTS isn't breaking contact in response to hot coolant temperature.

Whenever Blue/Black is grounded through the TTS the cold start injector will spray while cranking (Red/White).

The TTS uses a bimetalic strip to make and break contact, just like an old fashioned turn signal flasher. Wouldn't surprise me if that strip eventually wears out just like an old fashioned turn signal flasher. Only difference: replacement turn signal flasher only costs a couple of dollars.

Bill Robertson
#5939

Hi Bill! Just rang the Blue/Black TTS terminal with the water pump body once the car warmed up and got a reading between 120-130. The other terminal reads 60.

-Rafael

[content22207_2]

Put your meter on the beeper setting and see if it rings through. If it does, your cold start valve will fire (whenever Red/White is energized).

Bill Robertson
#5939

[hmcelraft]

You might want to check and be sure the fuel CPR wire and the cold start wire are not switched.

[dmcnc]

Bill - I had it under continuity test mode: 44191
No beep when hot, only the readings above.

- break -

Funny those two connectors are interchangeable, but yes, I do have the blue on CSV and black on CPR.

[content22207_2]

Did it beep? If the meter beeps, TTS is conducting well enough to close the circuit.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[spikeygg]

I just checked mine (I'm having cold start problems as well). Is the top wire supposed to be Blue/Yellow and the bottom wire supposed to be Blue/Black? That's what mine are. With a cold engine I probed the top prong (Blue/Yellow) of the thermo-time sensor and it was 30Ω to ground/body of the sensor. I probed the bottom (Blue/Black) of the thermo-time sensor and it was a 0Ω short to ground/body of the sensor.

Anyone know if this is acceptable? Also interested in the values of a functioning engine when hot if available. :)

44192

[dmcnc]

Did it beep? If the meter beeps, TTS is conducting well enough to close the circuit.

Bill Robertson
#5939

Did not beep.

[dmcnc]

I just checked mine (I'm having cold start problems as well). Is the top wire supposed to be Blue/Yellow and the bottom wire supposed to be Blue/Black? That's what mine are. With a cold engine I probed the top prong (Blue/Yellow) of the thermo-time sensor and it was 30Ω to ground/body of the sensor. I probed the bottom (Blue/Black) of the thermo-time sensor and it was a 0Ω short to ground/body of the sensor.

Anyone know if this is acceptable? Also interested in the values of a functioning engine when hot if available. :)

44192

That should be fine under cold conditions (under 95F):
The resistance value between "G" and ground should be:

At a temperature below 35 degree C: about 20 Ohm.
At a temperature above 35 degree C: about 60 Ohm.
The resistance value between "W" and ground should be:

At a temperature below 35 degree C: 0 (zero) Ohm.
At a temperature above 35 degree C: about 100 Ohm.

Ref: http://www.sl113.org/wiki/Engine/ThermoTimeSwitch (http://www.sl113.org/wiki/Engine/ThermoTimeSwitch)

[David T]

If the CSV runs hot AND cold either the TTS is bad or there is a problem with the wiring. Refer to D:01:09, 10. It is a very simple circuit. Above 35 degrees the TTS breaks the ground connection for the CSV so it can't run. If the wires were EVER reversed to the TTS it is now damaged and must be replaced.

[content22207_2]

According to the largely error free Workshop Manual (Page D:01:10) there should be no connection whatsoever between Blue/Black and the body of the pump when coolant is warm, or when extended cranking has warmed up the TTS.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[DMC5180]

A Friend of mine had a CSV Hot wired (bypassing the TTS) to fire all the time. by one of his Cars PO's or mechanic. (likely was a work around for a bad accumulator) Once the Accumulator was replaced the car was very hard to start HOT due to Flooding.

A simple test: Unplug the TTS and the CSV also verify that NOTHING is plugged into the WHITE RELAY SOCKET (unused Hot Start relay) located in the BACK of the relay/fusebox area.

Do a simple (beep) Audible continuity test between the terminal pin for the BLUE/black wire using either the TTS plug, Blue CSV connector or the White (EMPTY) hot start relay socket to GROUND (any black wire or the engine itself) there should be NO audible beep and ZERO continuity. If you DO have continuity start looking for tampering or pinched wiring in the engine bay harness. In my friends case a small ground wire was (HIDDEN) spliced into the BLUE/ Black wire near the ISM and grounded to the engine with the other ground wires on the front of the LH intake Rail.

If you do the above test and you have NO continuity, then the likely culprit is the TTS.

GOOD LUCK

[spikeygg]

According to the largely error free Workshop Manual (Page D:01:10) there should be no connection whatsoever between Blue/Black and the body of the pump when coolant is warm, or when extended cranking has warmed up the TTS.

Bill Robertson
#5939

Thanks guys, I just started her up after a little cranking. I waited until warm then shut down the engine and took measurements at the TTS terminals. Here they are:

Cold Engine:

Top pin (Blue/Yellow) was 30Ω
Bottom pin (Blue/Black) was 0Ω


Hot Engine:

Top pin (Blue/Yellow) was 60Ω
Bottom pin (Blue/Black) was 120Ω


I guess the TTS in my engine is good.

[dmcnc]

A Friend of mine had a CSV Hot wired (bypassing the TTS) to fire all the time. by one of his Cars PO's or mechanic. (likely was a work around for a bad accumulator) Once the Accumulator was replaced the car was very hard to start HOT due to Flooding.

A simple test: Unplug the TTS and the CSV also verify that NOTHING is plugged into the WHITE RELAY SOCKET (unused Hot Start relay) located in the BACK of the relay/fusebox area.

Do a simple (beep) Audible continuity test between the terminal pin for the BLUE/black wire using either the TTS plug, Blue CSV connector or the White (EMPTY) hot start relay socket to GROUND (any black wire or the engine itself) there should be NO audible beep and ZERO continuity. If you DO have continuity start looking for tampering or pinched wiring in the engine bay harness. In my friends case a small ground wire was (HIDDEN) spliced into the BLUE/ Black wire near the ISM and grounded to the engine with the other ground wires on the front of the LH intake Rail.

If you do the above test and you have NO continuity, then the likely culprit is the TTS.

GOOD LUCK

I got continuity on the terminal pin for the BLUE/black wire using either the TTS plug, Blue CSV connector and the White (EMPTY) hot start relay socket!

[content22207_2]

That's normal: Blue/Black is tied into the hot start relay socket:

44198

Bill Robertson
#5939

[content22207_2]

Hot Engine:

Bottom pin (Blue/Black) was 120Ω


I guess the TTS in my engine is good.

You should not be showing any ground continuity whatsoever on Blue/Black when warm.

I'm guessing your TTS is bad.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[dmcnc]

Found this non-standard ground linked to the CSV plug!
44199

Once disconnected, car started flawlessly under hot conditions!!! (CSV and TTS plugged back in).

You freaking rock Dennis! Thanks everyone for helping out!

-Rafael

[DMC5180]

Found this non-standard ground linked to the CSV plug!
44199

Once disconnected, car started flawlessly under hot conditions!!! (CSV and TTS plugged back in).

You freaking rock Dennis! Thanks everyone for helping out!

-Rafael

Rafael,

The tell tale in picture is the Yellow NON-OEM ring terminal. It's out of place with the other non-insulated factory terminals. Make sure you unwrap the harness and remove where it is spliced into the BLUE/black wire and re-wrap the harness.

My friends car was the exact same configuration. He is the 4th owner of his car and it was like that when he bought the car.


NOTE to MODERATORS this would be a good thread to move into the FAQ thread.

[David T]

Rafael,

The tell tale in picture is the Yellow NON-OEM ring terminal. It's out of place with the other non-insulated factory terminals. Make sure you unwrap the harness and remove where it is spliced into the BLUE/black wire and re-wrap the harness.

My friends car was the exact same configuration. He is the 4th owner of his car and it was like that when he bought the car.


NOTE to MODERATORS this would be a good thread to move into the FAQ thread.

As a general note, an experienced tech would do a visual check in the area of the suspected problem and would have noticed any non-standard wiring and questioned it. Often a tech who doesn't understand how the systems are supposed to work will do odd things to make a car run. Some of the most "creative" wiring mods are found in the fuel pump circuit. When first looking at a car that has a problem one of the easiest things to notice is any wiring modifications and if any are found they are suspect. For the most part they were done as a work-around to the original problem and now are a problem themselves. Also often they are not done very well either. A big example is when you find a burglar alarm, often it looks like the tech "knitted" it into the car with a MILE of wire! It can take the better part of a day to dissect it out! At least you found it and now the car is running as it should. That ground wire should be completely removed so no one will find it and think it should be connected again!

[DMC5180]

As a general note, an experienced tech would do a visual check in the area of the suspected problem and would have noticed any non-standard wiring and questioned it. Often a tech who doesn't understand how the systems are supposed to work will do odd things to make a car run. Some of the most "creative" wiring mods are found in the fuel pump circuit. When first looking at a car that has a problem one of the easiest things to notice is any wiring modifications and if any are found they are suspect. For the most part they were done as a work-around to the original problem and now are a problem themselves. At least you found it and now the car is running as it should. That ground wire should be completely removed so no one will find it and think it should be connected again!

IMHO A PO likely took the car to a European Foreign Car shop (VOLVO,AUDI,JAG etc) where the tech was familiar with how the K-jet works and knew how to work around the problem with a Quick fix. Likely because they didn't know where to get replacement parts for the car and it was a cheap fix at the time. There aren't many DIY owners out there that would know enough about the K-Jet system to do a mod like that. This is now the second time I've seen that exact same modification. Coincidence, I think not.