CA Smog Emissions Fail

[bytes311]

Hey guys,

So I took my D in to get it smogged and failed the 25 MPH test. Visual inspection passed, and the 15 MPH test passed, albeit barely. I have been comparing my numbers with others posted here on Talk, and noticed that my numbers are either too low or too high in comparison. Can anyone tell me if I'm running too rich? One measurement that stood out for me was the HC. The 15 MPH and 25 MPH tests measured a constant 6.

My D passed smog last year with a brand new CAT, O2 sensor and spark plug set. Everything is currently stock and operates normally (FV buzzes and there's no indication of a vac leak). I installed Hervey's 3-core brass radiator prior to the smog check. The only thing I haven't done yet is replace the cap and rotor and spark plug wires which are still original to the car.

Thanks!

44731

[Rich]

....I have been comparing my numbers with others posted here on Talk, and noticed that my numbers are either too low or too high in comparison. Can anyone tell me if I'm running too rich? One measurement that stood out for me was the HC. The 15 MPH and 25 MPH tests measured a constant 6.

Seeing it passes on HC, fails on CO and NO.

Let me know if you need more CA smog test numbers for D's in your area. Am 50mi west of you near SF, can PM lots of them to you for our car.

The HC seems normal or low on your car, suggesting it is not running rich. Maybe the result of the new cat, which tends to mask a rich condition. The report shows the ignition timing is within spec.

Sparkplugs are not old?

Original cap/rotor/wires? You are on borrowed time - replace them all in any case, then retest, assuming nobody finds other potential fixes. You might get lucky. And you need them all anyway.

[David T]

Replace the wires, cap and rotor, I would also replace the spark plugs or at least clean and regap them. If you have anywhere near 30,000 miles you should check the valve adjustments. After all of the work, check the duty cycle on the FV and adjust if necessary. Some other things to do include a new air filter and a tank of fresh gas.

[Ryan King]

Every 2 years I jump through the same CA SMOG checklist. Here is what I do to pass.

1. Oil Change
2. Air up the tires to almost max air capacity (Rolls easier on the machine)
3. Clean my K&N Air Filter
4. Check & Adjust the Dwell
5. Run a can of Sea Foam through the fuel tank (This year I just did one though the mixture control unit.)
6. Changed Spark Plugs
7. Changed out my exhaust gaskets (I have a Stage II)
8. Also I am soaking my Catalytic Converters in Laundry soap & water over night to break down the gunk build up them. Helped me pass last time.

But the biggest one is...

MAKE SURE THE CAR IS HOT AND AT RUNNING OPERATING TEMP.
I live in Fresno, and I take the car on a 45 minute drive down south to Visalia to have it smogged. I always ask them to do it right away while the engine is hot. I also ask them to run their shop fan on my car while they test. I have heard that helps do away with any extra smogging junk in the air while they are testing.

ANOTHER rumor I heard recently was to use steel wool and clean the inside of the tail pipe where they insert the smog probe. Ill try that this year too.

Hope this helps....I am becoming a seasoned veteran of CA Smog.....

-Ryan

[Chris 16409]

I always drive 40 minutes out of town to smog the car to ensure that the engine ant cat are nice and hot. I also fill up with Premium Chevron gas. If the frequency valve is buzzing then we can guess your mixture is okay. Check with a dwell meter if possible.

Looks like Ryan beat me to it!

[Bitsyncmaster]

I always drive 40 minutes out of town to smog the car to ensure that the engine ant cat are nice and hot. I also fill up with Premium Chevron gas. If the frequency valve is buzzing then we can guess your mixture is okay. Check with a dwell meter if possible.

Looks like Ryan beat me to it!

+1

FV will always buzz but is loudest when mixture is close to correct. So check with dwell.

[kings1527]

The DeLorean is a very clean burning car and not hard to have pass emissions tests, even here in CA. High CO and NOX seems to indicate lean mixture, if memory serves. I'd start off with the easy stuff such as ensuring there are no vacuum leaks and checking with a dwell meter first. If you have a relatively new cat and O2 sensor, this shouldn't be a huge issue to dial in correctly. I'm guessing your mixture is off. Here's a decent video (with a tad of hunt) on where the needle should range.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MbE-2k4Cy4E

[Ryan King]

The DeLorean is a very clean burning car and not hard to have pass emissions tests, even here in CA.

Maybe not for a stock DeLorean exhaust. Stage II or after market dual exhaust not so much.

[kings1527]

Maybe not for a stock DeLorean exhaust. Stage II or after market dual exhaust not so much.

Yes, I was referring to a stock exhaust since that sounds like what the OP has.

[DMCVegas]

Fuel mixture on this car is most definitely too lean!

I think that we really need a primer here on what happens inside of the combustion chambers to better understand how to pass smog.

Too rich of a mixture will result in unburned fuel in the exhaust. Gasoline is made from HydroCarbons, hence HC. Your levels are REALLY low at 6, so you've not got enough fuel burning inside of the combustion chambers.

So when we run too lean of a condition, you end up with HOTTER combustion chamber temperatures. This will cause a chemical reaction that gets the inert Nitrogen Gas to bond with the Oxygen molecules. Nitrogen + Oxygen = Nitrous Oxide (in various, indeterminable chains of mono-nitrogen oxides represented by NO & NO2 which is why we normally represent as NOx with "x" representing the mathematical equivalent of the unknown). NOx is bad. It lowers to pH level of cloud water and creates Acid Rain. This is why we don't want it in our exhaust, and is what VW's cheating scandal is all about.

Since all of that Oxygen is also being consumed by the Nitrogen to create NOx, it naturally reduces the amount of Oxygen present in the exhaust which in turn destroys the dilution ratio of Carbon Monoxide which causes you to fail in that category as well. It's not that you're producing *more* CO, it's just that the dilution ratio is too low. But a lack of oxygen in the exhaust also hinders performance of the Catalytic Converter to reduce NOx and starts up a vicious cycle like you have Once you get the lean condition cleared up and the NO, the CO problem automatically clears itself up.

In this kind of case, this is one of three things:

Vacuum Leak
Improper Ignition Timing
Incorrect Fuel Mixture


Go through those things, in that order (with fuel mixture avoided at all costs until it appears inevitable), and you'll have your issue resolved.


Things such as high HC showing unburned fuel is where you start to worry about bad spark plugs and wires, as well as cold engines. Although yes, hotter temperatures can damage plugs.

Speaking of which, here is my recommendation for passing a smog test:

1. Warm the car up.
You've got 3 gallons of coolant pumping through 18 feet of coolant pipes. It's going to take a while to warm the coolant up. The engine may look up to temp according to the gauge, but instead of warm water returning to the engine, it's going to be cold, which can certainly affect emissions when it's still cool out.

2. Burn off all the old gas!
Not everyone uses their car as a daily driver. I understand. But Ethanol in modern fuels doesn't let it store as well, and bad gasoline is going to give you poor results each and every time. So burn it off.

3. Other than Techron, do NOT add anything else to your fuel to "fix" your engine!
There is no such thing as a mechanic in a bottle. Techron is itself a maintenance item, and not necessarily a fix per se. If you're knocking because of carbon build up, you're not going to magically rebuild and scrub an entire engine with one tank of gas. More importantly is that you've got to remember to be very careful. Not all fuel system additives are safe for Oxygen sensors, nor are they safe for older rubber components in fuel systems such as what we have in our cars. So you can do more damage with these concoctions than you think.

Other than Techron, the only other additive you should ever be adding is fuel stabilizer for storage.

4. Give your car an "Italian Tune-Up" before smogging, and every so often as preventative maintenance.
Take the car on the highway, run it at speed, and do NOT engage overdrive! This means you only go up to 4th gear for manual transmissions, and 2nd for automatics. Keeping the engine at load for a prolonged amount of time will increase combustion chamber temps to help burn off some carbon and get the engine nice and warm to properly burn fuel for lower emissions prior to smog testing.

5. There is no such thing as "Premium Gasoline".
It is a myth. Octane ratings have to do with gasoline's resistance to burning. 87 octane has the same amount of energy as 92 octane fuel. There are no additional detergents, and certainly no additional performance boost. Higher-performance engines extract more power from gasoline by way of increased compression, but with the caveat of pre-detonation from higher compression levels. This leads to pre-detonation, or "knock". So higher octane fuels prevent pre-detonation so that the engine can precisely control the burns better.

But in regular cars? Nope. They run like crap because there is no additional heat/compression to burn all of the fuels. Thus it becomes HARDER for your engine to burn gasoline. Which if it can't burn all of the fuel before it leaves the combustion chamber, that leads to higher HC readings on your smog check! Prolonged use of high-octane fuels results in internal damage such as massive carbon deposits. That will lead to pre-detonation thanks to the carbon preventing the dissipation of all heat from the chambers, and then valves which won't close fully because of the deposits. That leads to leaking and a massive loss of power. At that point you WILL have to tear the engine apart to fix it.

Now you do have Top-Tier Fuels which include minimum requirements for detergents to keep engines clean, and restrictions of specific additives. Typically, those are the more desirable fuels you want in your vehicles, and they're the name-brand stuff. Avoid the cheap grocery store fuels and no-name ghetto gasoline.

There is no secret to passing an emissions test other than to ensure that your engine is operating within spec. That's all you need.

[bytes311]

Thank you all. Your comments have been extremely helpful! I've got a new cap + rotor, spark plug wire set and air filter on order from DMCH to replace the original ones.

I own the same dwell meter as the one linked above in the YouTube video, and the needle swings between the same numbers on mine. I've double-checked all of the reachable vacuum lines and they all appear to be good. If I disconnect the one vac line behind the distributor and rev the engine, it sucks in air. The only component that is not working properly is the Warm-Up Regulator. The heater element is broken, so I wait a few minutes before driving on a cold engine.

I'm not sure how to check the ignition timing (is that with a timing light?) but somebody said it appears to be within spec?

[DMCVegas]

You can't trust appearances. You've got to take your own measurements.

There are plenty of YouTube videos that can show you how to measure timing on your engine with a timing light. Adjusting the ignition is easy enough. It *is* a bit more difficult given the location of the distributor, but it is not impossible. It's even more easy if you just use the correct tool:

https://www.matcotools.com/productimages/kd104.jpg

Start with checking/adjusting the ignition, and we'll continue from there.

[David T]

If the car is running well and it passed Smog in the past, chances are the timing is just fine. It doesn't change by itself. Of course it can't hurt to check it. While you are checking it you should also check the vacuum and mechanical advance. Before checking you should verify the timing marks.

[bytes311]

Installed a brand new cap, rotor, air filter, and spark plug wire set. I had to remove the mixture unit TWICE because of that dreaded 'pipe of agony' pulling out the o-ring. Also, there may have been a vacuum leak at the W-pipe because one of the white plastic o-rings appeared disfigured.

After assembly, I checked duty cycle with a dwell meter and realized my FV wasn't buzzing like before. I adjusted the mixture, which corrected the problem with the FV. Right now I'm running a can of Techron through the engine (via fuel tank). I have a couple gallons left before I fill it back up with fresh gas.

[bytes311]

After driving around last night, I noticed a ticking sound coming off the back of the engine around cyl 4/distributor cap. The ticking itself is random, with a noticeable change in engine sound for that brief moment. I haven't tried re-seating the plugs, but I'd hate to have to tear down the engine again to inspect the cap. Does this sound like a spark issue? Defective cap/rotor/ignition wires?

[DMCVegas]

You shouldn't have to tear down anything. It is quite simple enough to replace the cap & rotor without ever having to disassemble anything. I've replaced my own cap & rotor, and even re-seated the Auxiliary Air Pipe all by feel.

If the distributor is buttoned down properly, it shouldn't be a problem. Just from a description, it's hard to tell what the sound could be. More importantly however, what are you emissions looking like now?

[bytes311]

You shouldn't have to tear down anything. It is quite simple enough to replace the cap & rotor without ever having to disassemble anything. I've replaced my own cap & rotor, and even re-seated the Auxiliary Air Pipe all by feel.

If the distributor is buttoned down properly, it shouldn't be a problem. Just from a description, it's hard to tell what the sound could be. More importantly however, what are you emissions looking like now?

I plan on taking it in this weekend. I'm hoping that it will test better this time around, especially after correcting a vacuum leak at the W-pipe.

The ticking noise is sporadic and sounds electrical behind the engine near the dist cap. It's mostly noticeable when idle.

[DMCVegas]

Again, very hard to tell what the sound is without being there. Now if you're ever unsure if you have voltage leaks on your ignition system, what you can do is pop the engine cover and run the car in the dark and look for flashes/sparks.

WARNING: Do NOT attempt to close your garage door to simulate the darkness. Always perform engine tests in a well ventilated area!

Also, if you slap the throttle to jump the RPMs, how does it sound settling back in? Does the engine idle quickly settle in, or does it rev up and down by itself?

[bytes311]

Again, very hard to tell what the sound is without being there. Now if you're ever unsure if you have voltage leaks on your ignition system, what you can do is pop the engine cover and run the car in the dark and look for flashes/sparks.

WARNING: Do NOT attempt to close your garage door to simulate the darkness. Always perform engine tests in a well ventilated area!

Also, if you slap the throttle to jump the RPMs, how does it sound settling back in? Does the engine idle quickly settle in, or does it rev up and down by itself?

I'll inspect the engine for flashes tonight after dark. When I rev up the engine and let it go, it settles down quickly. It doesn't surge or rev up and down on its own.

[David T]

Again, very hard to tell what the sound is without being there. Now if you're ever unsure if you have voltage leaks on your ignition system, what you can do is pop the engine cover and run the car in the dark and look for flashes/sparks.

WARNING: Do NOT attempt to close your garage door to simulate the darkness. Always perform engine tests in a well ventilated area!

Also, if you slap the throttle to jump the RPMs, how does it sound settling back in? Does the engine idle quickly settle in, or does it rev up and down by itself?

Another tip, while looking for sparks in the dark around a running motor, keep BOTH hands in your pockets. A ticking noise around the distributor means either you did not seat the cap or rotor properly or you did not seat all of the spark plug wires completely into the cap. Or you may have damaged a spark plug wire near the distributor and it is sparking. That ticking noise will result in a cylinder misfire and that will fail you in an emissions test.

[bytes311]

Another tip, while looking for sparks in the dark around a running motor, keep BOTH hands in your pockets. A ticking noise around the distributor means either you did not seat the cap or rotor properly or you did not seat all of the spark plug wires completely into the cap. Or you may have damaged a spark plug wire near the distributor and it is sparking. That ticking noise will result in a cylinder misfire and that will fail you in an emissions test.

Thank you for that information, David. Hopefully it's just the case of a loose plug wire.

[bytes311]

I just got back from the smog shop. The results came back pretty much the same as before, with HC measuring at 5. This was after replacing the plug wires, the cap, and the rotor and adjusting duty cycle within spec. I even removed the cat and let sit in laundry detergent overnight. It was clean before and after. The O2 sensor wasn't fouled either.

I left the car at the shop so they can perform their own diagnosis. Basically they said there's too much oxygen getting in. I'm guessing vac leak somewhere.

[DMCVegas]

I even removed the cat and let sit in laundry detergent overnight.

https://i.imgflip.com/jjmr6.jpg

Where did you get THAT idea from? How could that possibly help with cleaning up your exhaust when your HC levels are far too low?

Your NOx levels are high because the mixture is running too lean. If it was normal and the CO/HC was too high, THEN you could start looking at the Catalytic Converter. But ONLY after you checked the ignition system and balanced the fuel mixture. This absolutely does NOT apply in your case!

Listen, I'm not trying to be a jerk here. But what I'm seeing happening with your car is you're shotgunning repairs left and right, trying to find something to "fix" with the hope that one single item is the cure to all of your problems, and you're pissing away allot of cash in the process. Not to mention you're going to get really mad at the car and have a very bad experience. I, and others here, are trying to help you.

There are ways to test for a vacuum leak. The first of which is of course a visual inspection of all your hoses, vacuum lines, and gaskets. You need to go through those items and replace any bad parts. IF you need to, you can even take a can of starting fluid, and quickly spritz certain suspect areas around the engine. BEING VERY CONSERVATIVE WITH THE FLUID, AND DOING THIS SLOWLY TO GIVE IT TIME TO EVAPORATE BETWEEN SPRAYS! If you've got a leak, the RPMs will jump without you touching the throttle after spraying that particular area, and you'll know where you've got that leak at.

Once you get the vacuum leaks sorted out, THEN you need to move on to Ignition Timing. Gap your spark plugs correctly and set the timing as per the Workshop Manual.

After that is done, THEN you have to set the Fuel Mixture. This is done by measuring the exhaust gasses BEFORE the catalytic converter. The preferred method would be an Infrared Exhaust Gas Analyzer as per the Workshop Manual which any garage should have, but you can also tune using an A/F Meter and a proper Oxygen Sensor that will tell you when you're at 14.7. All of which is done sampling exhaust gas BEFORE the Catalytic Converter!

If you've still got problems with emissions levels, which at this point should only be high HCs if you've got a problem with a bad injector or spark plug accompanied by a poorly running engine, you can then go through each cylinder and start a separate set of diagnostic procedures then. Which are fundamentally the same as any other EFI System.

Once you've done all that and the engine is running fine, a properly functioning LAMBDA system will complete all fine-tuning on the fly, and the Catalytic Converter will clean up an stray exhaust problems. Because remember, it's there to merely help, NOT correct all the problems with a poorly running engine.

I hope your catalytic converter isn't damaged. Because if it is, even once you've gotten the engine sorted out and fixed, I foresee another almost $400 repair bill in your future for a replacement cat.

Please man, I learned car repair as a whole off my own DeLorean. Don't make the same mistakes that I did in the past. You can do this, and it's actually not that difficult. But it's only going to work if it is done the correct way which is to be methodical about it.

[bytes311]

Where did you get THAT idea from? How could that possibly help with cleaning up your exhaust when your HC levels are far too low?

From this forum. There are numerous threads where owners tried this method as a kind of last ditch effort short of buying a new Cat. I do see your point about my HC levels being so low that it doesn't even matter. I figured that since I already had the Cat out of the car to inspect, that it wouldn't hurt to clean any possible carbon residue inside.


Listen, I'm not trying to be a jerk here. But what I'm seeing happening with your car is you're shotgunning repairs left and right, trying to find something to "fix" with the hope that one single item is the cure to all of your problems, and you're pissing away allot of cash in the process. Not to mention you're going to get really mad at the car and have a very bad experience. I, and others here, are trying to help you.

No worries, and I most certainly appreciate the time you take to write out your responses in such detail.


There are ways to test for a vacuum leak. The first of which is of course a visual inspection of all your hoses, vacuum lines, and gaskets. You need to go through those items and replace any bad parts. IF you need to, you can even take a can of starting fluid, and quickly spritz certain suspect areas around the engine. BEING VERY CONSERVATIVE WITH THE FLUID, AND DOING THIS SLOWLY TO GIVE IT TIME TO EVAPORATE BETWEEN SPRAYS! If you've got a leak, the RPMs will jump without you touching the throttle after spraying that particular area, and you'll know where you've got that leak at.

I have checked every vacuum hose that I can access short of the ones down in the valley. I've even sprayed carb cleaner around suspected areas and did not find any leaks or sudden spikes in RPM. I have positive vacuum at the vacuum advance when I give it throttle, and none at idle.


Once you get the vacuum leaks sorted out, THEN you need to move on to Ignition Timing. Gap your spark plugs correctly and set the timing as per the Workshop Manual.

After that is done, THEN you have to set the Fuel Mixture. This is done by measuring the exhaust gasses BEFORE the catalytic converter. The preferred method would be an Infrared Exhaust Gas Analyzer as per the Workshop Manual which any garage should have, but you can also tune using an A/F Meter and a proper Oxygen Sensor that will tell you when you're at 14.7. All of which is done sampling exhaust gas BEFORE the Catalytic Converter!

Other than re-gaping the spark plugs (which were new and properly gaped last year), the A/F meter and Gas Analyzing stuff goes beyond what I can do in my own garage. This is only the second time in my two years of ownership that my car has been to the shop. I'm sure with their tools they will be able to narrow it down quick. I would rather pay them to properly diagnose the issue at this point.


Please man, I learned car repair as a whole off my own DeLorean. Don't make the same mistakes that I did in the past. You can do this, and it's actually not that difficult. But it's only going to work if it is done the correct way which is to be methodical about it.

No, I hear you! The last two years of ownership has been quite a learning experience, and I love it. And everyone here has been extremely helpful.

[David T]

Don't beat yourself up. You tried. California is the hardest State as far as emissions testing goes. It may require checking and adjusting the valves or replacing an injector. Any little thing can fail you and usually there are several little things! Everything must be "just right".

[DMCVegas]

From this forum. There are numerous threads where owners tried this method as a kind of last ditch effort short of buying a new Cat. I do see your point about my HC levels being so low that it doesn't even matter. I figured that since I already had the Cat out of the car to inspect, that it wouldn't hurt to clean any possible carbon residue inside.

I get it man, believe me I do. I tried all sorts of snake oil crap that did more damage to my car than good. Prime example was the idea of running a bottle of denatured alcohol through the system. Didn't fix a damn thing, car still had to have an injector replaced, AND I wound up with a destroyed O-Ring in my Primary Pressure Regulator which caused hot start problems. Big-ass Barrel-O-Fun that was, I tell ya. Wasted money, and further damage down the road. I just hate to see others go through such problems.

Sometimes there is no easy way to get out of doing what we have to. But ironically enough, it's sometimes easier to just do things properly the first time.


Other than re-gaping the spark plugs (which were new and properly gaped last year), the A/F meter and Gas Analyzing stuff goes beyond what I can do in my own garage. This is only the second time in my two years of ownership that my car has been to the shop. I'm sure with their tools they will be able to narrow it down quick. I would rather pay them to properly diagnose the issue at this point.

That's fair enough, I understand that.

But... What if there actually WAS a way for you to do all that yourself?

Ignition timing isn't that difficult at all. I have faith that you can easily do that no problem. There are plenty of YouTube videos and whatnot what will show you how. But what about the Air/Fuel mixture? There are ways as described by others to go ahead and use a dwell meter to also set your mixture.

Now I might also be jumping the gun here, and Dave or anyone else please correct me if I'm wrong, but you should be able to simply also use one of these devices as well:

http://www.jegs.com/p/Innovate-Motorsports/Innovate-DB-Series-Air/Fuel-Gauge-Kits/774546/10002/-1

http://www.jegs.com/images/photos/500/540/540-3796.jpg

You don't even have to permanently mount it in the car. Just screw it into the O2 port on your car, and connect it to the rest of the device. Put the LAMBDA into open loop, and tune it. Pop the plug on the CO mixture screw, adjust it slightly, plug it back up, give it a few seconds to settle down since you just created a tiny vacuum leak when you removed the plug. Observe the reading and adjust as nessisarry. Keep on doing that until you're at 14.7 and then just shut it all off to cool down the engine and then swap sensors and button everything back up.

These meters are used all the time to set the AFR on carbureted engines, so there is no reason we shouldn't be able to do the same here.



No, I hear you! The last two years of ownership has been quite a learning experience, and I love it. And everyone here has been extremely helpful.

It sounds like a very positive experience, and I'm glad to hear that. In truth, the DeLorean is actually a very simple car to work on. It just looks intimidating is all.

[bytes311]

You definitely piqued my interest in getting one of those AFR gauges. Would this one work in our cars? https://www.amazon.com/Innovate-Motorsports-Wideband-Gauge-Bosch/dp/B001QFH2S6/

[Bitsyncmaster]

You definitely piqued my interest in getting one of those AFR gauges. Would this one work in our cars? https://www.amazon.com/Innovate-Motorsports-Wideband-Gauge-Bosch/dp/B001QFH2S6/

Yes that would work but removing and installing the wideband sensor just to adjust your AFR may or may not be a lot of work.

You can permanently leave it installed and drive the stock lambda ECU with it.

Another option is a tailpipe mount for the wideband but if you have a CAT that affects accuracy.

[DMCVegas]

Yes that would work but removing and installing the wideband sensor just to adjust your AFR may or may not be a lot of work.

You can permanently leave it installed and drive the stock lambda ECU with it.

Another option is a tailpipe mount for the wideband but if you have a CAT that affects accuracy.

Question about that permanent installation: if you're directly dividing the signal from the O2 between the LAMBDA and the sensor, is there not a risk of power loss from that division which could deliver a false signal to both? Carbureted cars with these gauges don't share the signal with anything else other than the gauge, and EFI systems either install a dedicated sensor, and other systems simply query the computer via OBD-II to report back what the findings are.

Overall, using this method it would honestly be *less* work than what the existing procedure in the manual recommends. In that one you've got two separate brass plugs to pull to install probes onto each cylinder bank, instead of the single O2 sensor. And you still have to initiate cool-down periods before and after testing to remove those plugs, and then reinstall them. On top of that, you'd either need a single exhaust gas analyzer with dual inputs, or two separate ones on each cylinder bank.

Yes, there would be an advantage to quickly isolate a vacuum leak to a particular cylinder bank. However, given the nature of the points of failure on the PRV with the shared O-Rings and Gaskets and their prices, you'd probably just replace ALL of the seals anyway rather than just a single side, or even a single cylinder. So measuring at the exhaust confluence becomes more advantageous with the significantly lower amount of work needed for the measurement process. In reality, only the exhaust manifold gaskets are kept separate, and you can audibly hear when you've got a leak there.

We could cut this work down even MORE with an adaptor harness for the newer O2 sensor, but I'm not sure if this is a 3 or 4 wire sensor in the kit.

[Bitsyncmaster]

A wideband sensor does not directly produce a voltage related to AFR like a narrow band sensor. It has 6 wires (or more) and electronics drive the sensor to get signals from it.

So the Innovate system has that electronics which the wideband sensor plugs into. Then that electronics can produce the signal that simulates the narrow band voltage and you drive that signal into the lambda ECU. The advantage is you can set the AFR you want so the simulated signal produces what the narrow band would have produced at 14.7 AFR.

The display uses a second output out of that electronics to show you the AFR.

So you are not modifying anything connecting your stock lambda ECU to the system.

[FABombjoy]

The LC2 is only 4 wires now which is nice. I am replacing my LC1 because of some issues I've had with it (stuck outputs)

[DMCVegas]

A wideband sensor does not directly produce a voltage related to AFR like a narrow band sensor. It has 6 wires (or more) and electronics drive the sensor to get signals from it.

So the Innovate system has that electronics which the wideband sensor plugs into. Then that electronics can produce the signal that simulates the narrow band voltage and you drive that signal into the lambda ECU. The advantage is you can set the AFR you want so the simulated signal produces what the narrow band would have produced at 14.7 AFR.

The display uses a second output out of that electronics to show you the AFR.

So you are not modifying anything connecting your stock lambda ECU to the system.

I see what you're saying. The LC-2 controller has dual outputs, which are also user configurable. The Yellow wire goes directly to the gauge, and the brown analog wire would feed the LAMBDA. It's preset values according to Innovated are: 1.1 volt = 14 AFR and .1 volt = 15 AFR. How does this compare with the stock O2 sensor? Is that plug & play? Or does it require a reprogramming?

Even if you didn't want to modify your car, you could just leave the gauge hidden under parcel shelf on a lead of wires with the ECUs so you could just pull it out whenever you want to actively monitor the gauge for testing or tuning.

I wish they still made just a simple LM-1 for greater simplicity.

[Bitsyncmaster]

The LC2 is only 4 wires now which is nice. I am replacing my LC1 because of some issues I've had with it (stuck outputs)

I do like the remote LED function of the LC1 to read error codes. I used that to drive my LAMBDA light.

[bytes311]

Well, the shop richened the mixture to the edge where the dwell would oscillate and reduced timing to the lowest spec which got it to pass this time around. I'm relieved it's over! (for another two years). I'm just going to have to dig around and figure out why the car prefers to run lean when the dwell is correct and the FV is buzzing like it's in spec.

Here are the good results:
45402

[5dmc1]

Roughly how much did it cost you to get the car diagnosed and fixed and where did you take it? I live in southern California, Ventura county and id hate to have to take it all the way to DMC CA to have it fixed for emissions testing, but being that my mechanic doesn't like working on my 70 camaro due to parts being hard to find, I dont think he will want to touch a DeLorean lol.

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[Rich]

Which problem are you working on? Getting the initial smog check done for new registration/ownership or ongoing service for a D that has passed CA smog before?

For the first problem remember that it is up to the Seller to provide a recent smog certificate as a condition of sale and registration. It isn't your problem unless you waive that requirement.

For the second problem look for a decent indy shop that is familiar with BMW/VW/Volvo/MBZ/Saab/Porsche cars of the era. Those brands and others ran models with Bosch K-Jet fuel systems back in the day, the same system DeLoreans have.

In case bytes311 doesn't reply a google maps search on "Volvo repair" for the Oxnard area shows almost 10 shops, some of which likely can do what you need done.



Roughly how much did it cost you to get the car diagnosed and fixed and where did you take it? I live in southern California, Ventura county and id hate to have to take it all the way to DMC CA to have it fixed for emissions testing, but being that my mechanic doesn't like working on my 70 camaro due to parts being hard to find, I dont think he will want to touch a DeLorean lol.

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[5dmc1]

There is actually a Scandinavian shop here in town where I live that specializes in BMW MB and Volvo, I'm quite far from Oxnard, closer to LA county, in fact I'm right on the border, ill have to ring them on Monday and see if they have any vintage experience.

Also, does the smog certificate apply to out of state cars? If I get a car from Texas with an emissions certificate will CA accept it?

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[bytes311]

Roughly how much did it cost you to get the car diagnosed and fixed and where did you take it? I live in southern California, Ventura county and id hate to have to take it all the way to DMC CA to have it fixed for emissions testing, but being that my mechanic doesn't like working on my 70 camaro due to parts being hard to find, I dont think he will want to touch a DeLorean lol.

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I took my car to a local Volvo shop whose also familiar with our cars. I believe the bill out of the door was approximately $400. They installed a new O2 sensor and adjusted the a/f mixture to get my car to pass. Since then, I've found and repaired numerous issues with my car that I wasn't aware were issues at the time, from vacuum leaks to new injectors to rebuilding my WUR. I'm curious what my numbers are going to look like when I go in in a couple months.

[Rich]

Also, does the smog certificate apply to out of state cars? If I get a car from Texas with an emissions certificate will CA accept it?

1. Yes. CA residents have a limited amount of time to register an out of state car they bring into CA. And to do that they need to provide a recent/valid CA smog cert. for that car.
2. No. Only smog inspection stations in CA can perform the test. That lets non-CA sellers off the hook for responsibility. You could negotiate the testing/cert cost out of the deal.

The rules are explained here (https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/dmv/detail/vr/checklists/outofstate).

Try calling DMC Calif. They've probably dealt with this before in and also will know what DMCH does for CA buyers.

[5dmc1]

anybody got a Stage 1 in CA and are passing smog? Its CA legal, has an EO number but is the PRV still passing with the aftermarket CATs? I really want the Stage 1 for my D as the FIRST mod I do when I get it, but passing SMOG is paramount and I dont want to "dirty" smog the car, if you know what I mean.

[5dmc1]

1. Yes. CA residents have a limited amount of time to register an out of state car they bring into CA. And to do that they need to provide a recent/valid CA smog cert. for that car.
2. No. Only smog inspection stations in CA can perform the test. That lets non-CA sellers off the hook for responsibility. You could negotiate the testing/cert cost out of the deal.

The rules are explained here (https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/dmv/detail/vr/checklists/outofstate).

Try calling DMC Calif. They've probably dealt with this before in and also will know what DMCH does for CA buyers.

Ill call them on monday, if they are open, the Riots are ruining all my plans right now T_T

[Chris 16409]

The new DMC Stage 1 has CARB EO Number. As long as the car is running properly then the car should pass a smog check. The Stage 1 isn't really less efficient than the stock exhaust system. The older non certified systems still passed the functionality tests. It was just that shops in the know would fail the car for the visual portion of the inspection. Shops that don't know any better would usually overlook the visual difference of a Stage 1 because they don't know what a DeLorean is supposed to look like. Anyhow, with the EO Number you should not have any issues passing the visual test. If you buy any car, in state or out of state, you can have a shop conduct a pre-test. This is basically a smog check but the results aren't sent to the state. This will help give you an idea how the car is running before you do the official smog check. This will save you from potentially being tagged as a gross polluter. Sure it's an additional cost, but it would be well worth it if you don't have good service history with the car.

[5dmc1]

The new DMC Stage 1 has CARB EO Number. As long as the car is running properly then the car should pass a smog check. The Stage 1 isn't really less efficient than the stock exhaust system. The older non certified systems still passed the functionality tests. It was just that shops in the know would fail the car for the visual portion of the inspection. Shops that don't know any better would usually overlook the visual difference of a Stage 1 because they don't know what a DeLorean is supposed to look like. Anyhow, with the EO Number you should not have any issues passing the visual test. If you buy any car, in state or out of state, you can have a shop conduct a pre-test. This is basically a smog check but the results aren't sent to the state. This will help give you an idea how the car is running before you do the official smog check. This will save you from potentially being tagged as a gross polluter. Sure it's an additional cost, but it would be well worth it if you don't have good service history with the car.Gross polluter? Never heard that term before, what does it mean if u get that? Also thanks for the reply! I love the sound of the stage 1 so id really love to put it on my car when I get it, I'm a sucker for a good sounding exhaust.

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[bytes311]

Gross polluter? Never heard that term before, what does it mean if u get that? Also thanks for the reply! I love the sound of the stage 1 so id really love to put it on my car when I get it, I'm a sucker for a good sounding exhaust.

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I received "gross polluter" status the first time I smogged my car without performing any repairs (5 years ago). I didn't know it was THAT bad. Now, I can only take my car to a "Star certified" smog station.

[Rich]

Gross polluter? Never heard that term before, what does it mean if u get that?

The Calif. DMV designates a vehicle as a gross polluter if it fails at a level exceeding 2X the applicable max/limits on either HC, CO or NO during its biannual emissions test.

The 2X-max failure record is what triggers the gross polluter designation. Permanently. What is the consequence? From that time forward that vehicle can be tested only at STAR smog test stations, as noted in previous post by bytes311.*

STAR stations meet specified performance standards established by the Bureau of Automotive Repair. There are plenty of STAR stations, at least in the SF Bay Area.

Your registration renewal letter will tell you about STAR-station-only status in case it applies. There are other reasons a given car can be restricted to STAR station testing.

There are no other penalties for having triggered a gross polluter status.

* In case you want to see whether the car is likely to fail the smog test without risking a gross polluter trigger you can ask your smog station to perform a pre-test - that test is done without a live-data-link to the authorities. Then you have time to fix it if you need to before a real test. In case it passes the pre-test you can direct them to go into real test mode right there, which means they put the car through another full test sequence, this time with an active DMV data link. Pre-testing is a legal option. Any upcharge for pre-testing is for the station and you to work out in advance.

[5dmc1]

The Calif. DMV designates a vehicle as a gross polluter if it fails at a level exceeding 2X the applicable max/limits on either HC, CO or NO during its biannual emissions test.

The 2X-max failure record is what triggers the gross polluter designation. Permanently. What is the consequence? From that time forward that vehicle can be tested only at STAR smog test stations, as noted in previous post by bytes311.*

STAR stations meet specified performance standards established by the Bureau of Automotive Repair. There are plenty of STAR stations, at least in the SF Bay Area.

Your registration renewal letter will tell you about STAR-station-only status in case it applies. There are other reasons a given car can be restricted to STAR station testing.

There are no other penalties for having triggered a gross polluter status.

* In case you want to see whether the car is likely to fail the smog test without risking a gross polluter trigger you can ask your smog station to perform a pre-test - that test is done without a live-data-link to the authorities. Then you have time to fix it if you need to before a real test. In case it passes the pre-test you can direct them to go into real test mode right there, which means they put the car through another full test sequence, this time with an active DMV data link. Pre-testing is a legal option. Any upcharge for pre-testing is for the station and you to work out in advance.We have a lot of star stations, I think my current one already is. He's actually an ex state referee, and while that may seem bad, he actually passed my modded daily that didn't have eo numbers for some parts as he knew they were exemptions on Appendix G of California BAR, while my old tech failed me visually for them due to his inexperience. Ill have to ask if he is familiar with DeLoreans and their quirks, he's a super chill nice guy, even gave me a copy of Appendix G encase I ever get pulled over for my intercooler on my daily (as its visible, but exempt from EO requirement).

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[Chris 16409]

What exactly is Appendix G and can you post a copy here?

[bytes311]

The 2X-max failure record is what triggers the gross polluter designation. Permanently. What is the consequence? From that time forward that vehicle can be tested only at STAR smog test stations, as noted in previous post by bytes311.*

Ahh, that's a bummer. I didn't know my car is now permanently subjected to STAR-only test stations. I thought it would eventually drop off the "gross polluter list" after consecutively passing. :(

[5dmc1]

What exactly is Appendix G and can you post a copy here?

2020 Legislature updated it to Appendix C now, but it can be found here: https://www.bar.ca.gov/pdf/2017_Smog_Check_Manual.pdf scroll to Appendix C near the bottom and find the chart.

[er1c]

All seems bit harsh if I am reading it right a misconfigured setup/issue screws you for eternity.....

[bytes311]

All seems bit harsh if I am reading it right a misconfigured setup/issue screws you for eternity.....

I talked to three smog shops in my local area last week and they all said that the new smog machines the state requires do not allow them to do pre-tests anymore.

[Rich]

I talked to three smog shops in my local area last week and they all said that the new smog machines the state requires do not allow them to do pre-tests anymore.

That's unfortunate if true for all of them. My local shop must have been running an old smog machine when I tested there last month. And passed again.

Interesting to see that the 2017 Calif. Smog Check Manual https://www.bar.ca.gov/pdf/2017_Smog_Check_Manual.pdf clearly lists the pre-test option (p.34) yet the (required?) new machines cannot perform a pre-test? I guess something changed.

As far as being "screwed for eternity" per Post #50 above, there isn't much of a downside to the STAR test station limitation. Those stations aren't hard to find and tend to be run by folks who know what they're doing. The test procedure for old cars like DeLoreans is the same at STAR and non-STAR shops.

[bytes311]

Interesting to see that the 2017 Calif. Smog Check Manual https://www.bar.ca.gov/pdf/2017_Smog_Check_Manual.pdf clearly lists the pre-test option (p.34) yet the (required?) new machines cannot perform a pre-test? I guess something changed.

Yep, that's what they told me. They said as soon as their machines are turned on/logged on, they are ready to transmit.

[5dmc1]

Yep, that's what they told me. They said as soon as their machines are turned on/logged on, they are ready to transmit.

I think this plays back into the old Cash for Clunkers thing. My Tennant just failed her smog test with her 2001 Focus, and the state paid her 1500 dollars for the car. Put simply, the state doesnt want these older more polluting vehicles on the road anymore, and the fact that they dont have any system in place to make exemptions for vehicles that are considered historically significant is appalling. If they want to make things harder for owners of older cars then they need to make exemptions for cars like DeLoreans, Lamborghinis, Ferrari, and other famous cars from those eras. No DeLorean should ever be destined for the crusher...

[bytes311]

I just had my bi-annual smog test yesterday. My numbers came back better than they've ever been, and for once in my 5 years of ownership it didn't cost an arm and a leg.

My NOx shows a bit high. Perhaps I'm still running a tad lean? They didn't smog my car right away. In fact, it sat outside for 6 hours -- chances are it wasn't even properly warmed up.

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