3.0L engine swap

[dn010]

I'm sure you can guess what the next area of the car I'd suggest you look at would be.

If it is ending up in the filter and the bowl then the tank has got to be full of stuff too. I don't recall you letting the car sit for extended periods, so maybe you were lucky enough to get a wonderful dose of gas with crap in it from a station.

[Farrar]

Yes, it definitely looks like I got a tank of bad fuel at some point. At first I thought maybe the brown stuff was rust which had broken free from the original steel fuel lines, which were unused and left open to the air for several years. But there's so much of it that I doubt it could have come from those lines. It definitely looks like a sediment of some kind.

58590

[Lwanmtr]

that looks yummy....lol

[Farrar]

that looks yummy....lol

I'm sure it's great on French toast. Try some and let me know what you think. :P

[Lwanmtr]

That looks more like something you put on seafood...and i dont eat seafood...perhaps one of the others could give it go...hehe

[Farrar]

I'd rather have blackened catfish than blackened spark plugs.

BTW, credit where credit is due: the reason I checked the power valve is because Bill called me and said "I had a thought. Didn't you say your spark plugs were turning black?" It was his eureka moment. He explained to me how the power valve works and what would happen if the vacuum diaphragm had failed. That explained the symptoms. I am pretty confident that the new power valve will solve the problem. (But, as already pointed out by a couple of people here, I might as well just rebuild the carburetor while I'm at it.)

Another thought that Bill had explains why there was so much rust: when he was driving #2613 in D.C., the fuel filter clogged, so he grabbed a fuel filter off of an old truck. The donor truck has a steel fuel tank.

New power valve arrived in the mail yesterday. The rest of the rebuild kit should arrive today. After everything is back together, I plan to finish re-charging the a/c this weekend. (That's right - air conditioning in November. Welcome to south Florida.) Monday is the anniversary of when I bought and drove the car home in 2007. I'd like to be able to drive the car that day as a kind of celebration, even if it's only driven to work and back.

Side note: I'd like to add a dashpot/solenoid to this carburetor so that I can have a constant engine speed while running the air conditioning. If anyone familiar with these units could find me a part number to search for, I'd be grateful.

[Ron]

Side note: I'd like to add a dashpot/solenoid to this carburetor so that I can have a constant engine speed while running the air conditioning. If anyone familiar with these units could find me a part number to search for, I'd be grateful.A dashpot will only dampen idle speed drop, so you need a solenoid. The mounting holes-brackets vary.
The correct bracket can be hard to find....

Post your carb number (usually 3 to 4 letters/numbers starting with a "C", a dash, then 1 to 4 letters).

[Farrar]

Post your carb number (usually 3 to 4 letters/numbers starting with a "C", a dash, then 1 to 4 letters).

I couldn't find any such marking on the carburetor. On the bottom, there's a giant "8" on one corner and "KT" on the other corner. The only other identifying marks are "Motorcraft" and "1.08," which we already knew...

Bill says it's a 2100, but it looks to me like it has some features of the 2150. Not sure if that is helpful.

Anyway, it's rebuilt and on the car now. Going to take a water/snack/aircon break and then test it.

[opethmike]

Aaaaand?

[Farrar]

Aaaaand?

No improvement, or maybe a slight improvement. The car still rocks at idle.

Note that "idle" in my case means three different things:
(1) idling without a/c on and in "Park" or "Neutral," about 880-900 RPM.
(2) idling without a/c on and in "Drive," about 760-800 RPM.
(3) idling with a/c on and in "Drive," about 700-720 RPM.

That is until the engine is really hot, in which case it's all of those + 50 RPM.

FWIW, the 3.0L workshop manual says idle speed should be 790 RPM.

I want to set the idle speed as low as possible without the engine dying in gear with the a/c on (had that happen - embarrassing), because otherwise when the engine is hot and I put the thing in "Park" and turn off the a/c, the engine diesels for a few seconds when I shut it off (also embarrassing).

It's easier to see the "0" on the timing scale than any of the other numbers since it's so far to the right, so I bought a fancy new timing light which has provision for spark advance, set it to 14°, and looked. Advance is at 14° at 780-800 RPM. That's probably not bad, so I'll leave it there.

(Why the ~20 variance in the numbers? Because the numbers jump around when I am trying to set idle speed.)

I'm not sure what to do now except finish charging the a/c and take the thing on a test drive. I need to put fuel in the tank, anyway, because it's down to a quarter tank. Probably it will run like it did before. But I am tired of banging my head against this wall. I will just drive the car and try not to be embarrassed by it. Par for the course with any other old car, so why not this one?

This is not unusual: Bill can tweak one thing on my car and have it running fine, and all I have to do is drive it for a while and stuff starts going wrong with it. When it comes to all things automotive, if Bill is King Midas, I am the poop emoji.

[Ron]

I couldn't find any such marking on the carburetor. On the bottom, there's a giant "8" on one corner and "KT" on the other corner. The only other identifying marks are "Motorcraft" and "1.08," which we already knew...

Bill says it's a 2100, but it looks to me like it has some features of the 2150. Not sure if that is helpful.

Thought I posted this already??? ...Anyway-

The number is usually on a tag under one of the front screws holding the top on. Some also have it stamped on the side of the mounting ear located on the linkage side, front.

The "1.08" is the venturi size (common for ~289CID engine):

X.XX = CFM
0.98 = 190
1.01 = 240
1.02 = 245
1.08 = 287
1.14 = 300
1.21 = 351
1.23 = 356
1.33 = 424

All 2100's are curved across the back -- 2150's are straight. See below:
58641 58642

This Dashpot-Solenoid (https://quadrajetparts.com/dash-solenoid-motorcraft-e6pz-9s520-p-2024.html?osCsid=9df2v18bj2mbfovi6isgrdhlm4) should work either way, IF your's has the correct mounting holes.
$hop around tho!!

[Ron]

No improvement, or maybe a slight improvement. The car still rocks at idle.

Note that "idle" in my case means three different things:
(1) idling without a/c on and in "Park" or "Neutral," about 880-900 RPM.
(2) idling without a/c on and in "Drive," about 760-800 RPM.
(3) idling with a/c on and in "Drive," about 700-720 RPM.

That is until the engine is really hot, in which case it's all of those + 50 RPM.

FWIW, the 3.0L workshop manual says idle speed should be 790 RPM.

I want to set the idle speed as low as possible without the engine dying in gear with the a/c on (had that happen - embarrassing), because otherwise when the engine is hot and I put the thing in "Park" and turn off the a/c, the engine diesels for a few seconds when I shut it off (also embarrassing).

It's easier to see the "0" on the timing scale than any of the other numbers since it's so far to the right, so I bought a fancy new timing light which has provision for spark advance, set it to 14°, and looked. Advance is at 14° at 780-800 RPM. That's probably not bad, so I'll leave it there.

(Why the ~20 variance in the numbers? Because the numbers jump around when I am trying to set idle speed.)

I'm not sure what to do now except finish charging the a/c and take the thing on a test drive. I need to put fuel in the tank, anyway, because it's down to a quarter tank. Probably it will run like it did before. But I am tired of banging my head against this wall. I will just drive the car and try not to be embarrassed by it. Par for the course with any other old car, so why not this one?

This is not unusual: Bill can tweak one thing on my car and have it running fine, and all I have to do is drive it for a while and stuff starts going wrong with it. When it comes to all things automotive, if Bill is King Midas, I am the poop emoji.
The dashpot-solenoid should solve the diesel and idle speed problems.

For the other, you might try:
While warmed up and idling, pull the plug wires one cylinder at a time looking for any that are not firing (no change in sound or RPM). If no luck, put a vacuum gauge on it and post a vid of idle, sloooow revs to red line, WOTs, etc.

[DMC5180]

Farrar,

I’m not familiar with the 3.0 heads and Plug wire configuration. Does the 3.0 use the same style sparkplug boots as the B28F?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[dn010]

Before putting more fuel in the tank, did you look at the old fuel in there to see if it is full of sediment? You will undo all the work you just did if you fill it up and it still has crap in it.

[DMC5180]

Before putting more fuel in the tank, did you look at the old fuel in there to see if it is full of sediment? You will undo all the work you just did if you fill it up and it still has crap in it.

Even more interesting that the crap made it through the filter to begin with. It says a lot about how poor those filters really are. Should probably put in a filter with at least 125 micron filtration.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Farrar]

Does the 3.0 use the same style sparkplug boots as the B28F?

No, they're quite different:

58712

...

[Disclaimer: all engine speed values below are approximate. Using my digital timing light, the RPM value displayed tends to jump around by 20-30 RPM at any given speed.]

I haven't connected a vacuum gauge yet, but today I took the time to try to fix the idle mixture. Backing off the curb idle screw entirely dropped engine speed to about 550 RPM. It was running very rough. I adjusted the mixture until the idle was more stable (mixture was made more lean). At this point the engine speed had increased to about 600 RPM. I was able to punch the throttle and have it settle back down to 600 RPM without the engine stalling out.

Interestingly, when the cooling fans came on, the engine speed dropped a little. I have no idea why an electrical load would translate to a physical load on the engine. Someone more informed than me can probably explain it. Nevertheless, the alternator is performing well. It should, since it's only a couple of years old.

I engaged the curb idle screw to raise idle speed to about 900 RPM. It is running more smoothly, but not as smooth as when I first took delivery of the vehicle.

All of this comes in the context of installing a new a/c compressor, by the way: before I was interrupted I was almost done re-charging the system. With the idle speed at 900 RPM I turned on the a/c. Idle speed dropped to 700 RPM. Alternator was still producing 13.8 Volts, even though factory spec for this engine says idle should be 790 RPM. No worries. I finished charging the system and tightened the low pressure switch where I heard a hiss when I shut the engine off. (I probably bumped the low pressure switch when I was fumbling around for the electrical connections last week.)

Started the engine again. It fired up immediately and settled into an idle at 900 RPM.

Turned on the a/c and put it in gear. Idle speed dropped significantly but the gauge on the dash isn't 100% accurate so I'm not sure what it was. Probably 650 RPM or so. That's actually not too bad, in my opinion.

I shut off the a/c, put it back in "Park" and shut the engine off. It did not diesel.

The fuel gauge now reads 1/8 of a tank. I need to fill it up before I do any more testing, but it seems things are getting better. Now that I'm done with the a/c (for now), I will connect a vacuum gauge and do the same idle mixture adjustment as I did above, but with a bit more precision, I hope. There's a filling station not far from here, but it's a pricey one. Dare I drive the full twenty minutes to Costco?

...

In other news, this arrived while we were away for the holiday:

58713

I asked Bill what kind of dashpot/solenoid I needed, and he said I don't need one. Obviously, I bought one anyway. LOL I'll have to figure out how it works on my own. That shouldn't be too hard.

[Farrar]

All 2100's are curved across the back -- 2150's are straight.

Thanks, that's what I thought. Mine definitely doesn't have that dogbone shape.


This Dashpot-Solenoid (https://quadrajetparts.com/dash-solenoid-motorcraft-e6pz-9s520-p-2024.html?osCsid=9df2v18bj2mbfovi6isgrdhlm4) should work either way, IF your's has the correct mounting holes.
$hop around tho!!

Great! By coincidence, that's the one I ordered. :D

[Ron]

... I finished charging the system and tightened the low pressure switch where I heard a hiss when I shut the engine off. (I probably bumped the low pressure switch when I was fumbling around for the electrical connections last week.)FWIW- Hand tighten. They are very very easy to break. Although they have a place for a wrench to fit, that is for removal...



In other news, this arrived while we were away for the holiday:

58713

I asked Bill what kind of dashpot/solenoid I needed, and he said I don't need one. Obviously, I bought one anyway. LOL I'll have to figure out how it works on my own. That shouldn't be too hard.
Connect the pigtail to the compressor clutch. With the engine idling, warm, AC OFF, adjust the carb for the highest vacuum you can get at a smooth idle, readjust the RPM and repeat... Once turning either air screw either way does not help (high vacuum and idle at spec), turn the AC ON and adjust the solenoid section to raise the idle back up to spec.

The dashpot section is probably ready to go... As a test, from a stop, put it in 1st and floor it. Then about 1/4 to 1/3 through the gear, let off abruptly. If the engine doesn't stall, you are good to go. Otherwise, adjust via the screw in the back of the diaphragm.

[Farrar]

I connected the vacuum gauge and adjusted the idle mixture for the highest vacuum. Just like before, I backed off the curb idle screw until the engine was stumbling around 550-600 RPM. (600 RPM without the cooling fans on ... 550 RPM with the cooling fans on.)

Just to be sure I was doing OK, I engaged the curb idle screw and tried re-adjusting as I increased idle speed by 100s all the way up to 900 RPM. Re-adjustment was not necessary: the screws were best left in the same place all the way up. 900 RPM is where I have it set since it leaves me in "Drive" at a stoplight with the a/c on at 650 RPM. That's high enough to keep the engine from stalling with that load on it. The alternator is still putting out charging voltage at that speed, but since the manual says idle is 790 RPM for this engine, I do wonder about oil pressure.

(The stoplights in Florida are the longest I have ever encountered. Sometimes if I get to an intersection just as the light turns red, it means staring at a red light for three or four minutes!)

It still doesn't idle smoothly, but everything looks good "on paper" so I am leaving it alone. However, I do want to give the dashpot a try. It is annoying as heck when that a/c compressor kicks in and the engine speed drops 200 RPM.

EDIT: Thanks for those instructions, Ron!

[Bitsyncmaster]

Interestingly, when the cooling fans came on, the engine speed dropped a little. I have no idea why an electrical load would translate to a physical load on the engine. Someone more informed than me can probably explain it. Nevertheless, the alternator is performing well. It should, since it's only a couple of years old.

An electrical load puts more load on the alternator which is why the carbed idle speed will change. If the alternator were a perfect machine then 770 watts of load would require one horsepower of work. At idle an engine may only be producing 5 to 10 HP so a small load change will produce an RPM change.

[Farrar]

An electrical load puts more load on the alternator which is why the carbed idle speed will change. If the alternator were a perfect machine then 770 watts of load would require one horsepower of work. At idle an engine may only be producing 5 to 10 HP so a small load change will produce an RPM change.

Thanks, Dave! That also makes sense why the speed will change more when the engine is turning very slowly but not at all noticeable when the engine is turning fast.

[Ron]

When you are 100% sure everything else is up to snuff, you can sacrifice highest vacuum to correct smoothness (up to 1/4 turn ea on the air screws...they mean nothing when it is off idle). Remember to rev it once to clear it out and let it settle after each adjustment.
And +/- 2° is allowed on timing...

[Farrar]

And +/- 2° is allowed on timing...

Josh Schattenkirk told me that he had his engine timed at 14 degrees at 750 RPM idle speed. (His car must have been a manual.)

I currently have timing 14 degrees at 900 RPM. This is less than how Bill had it set. Bill had 16 degrees at 900 RPM, because he was concerned about a low vacuum reading. When adjusting the idle mixture yesterday, the maximum vacuum I could get at idle was 16 inches. Bill's theory is that the lower vacuum reading is due to running the 2.8L camshafts in the 3.0L engine, since the valve timing is very slightly different. I'm not worried so much about low vacuum. But I am concerned with advancing timing too much.

[Farrar]

Well, this is embarrassing.

Bill pointed out to me that the vacuum port I had my gauge on drew only from the passenger side of the intake manifold. Even though the ports for the HVAC/Brake Booster (1) and transmission vacuum modulator (2) are on the adapter plate, the adapter plate has two passages, not one, because it sits atop a dual-plane manifold.

With no spare vacuum ports to spare, I am going to have to run to the hardware store, find an appropriate T-fitting, and take a reading from the PCV vacuum hose... and then start all over again. LOL

Oops.

[Farrar]

Tuned again with the vacuum gauge connected to PCV hose (common to both sides of the intake). Accomplished nothing. Engine still bumps along. I give up. I'll just have to drive it as is.

In other news, the dashpot/solenoid assembly that arrived in the mail looks like it's wrong for this carburetor, or else I can't figure out how to fit it. So, again, I'll just have to drive it as is.

[Farrar]

I went to fill up the tank and brought the dashcam along. This three-minute excerpt (I haven't figured out how to string the short videos together yet) demonstrated what is happening now: the engine now has the same symptoms at *ALL* speeds. When it's down at idle, the car has tremors, and when it's up at 3,000 RPM it sounds like someone rolling their tongue, Italian-style.

But it does run.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZqSQBwGULpY

[Drive Stainless]

I think I hear Sophia Loren locked in the trunk and calling for rrrrrrrrigatoni?

[Farrar]

I think I hear Sophia Loren locked in the trunk and calling for rrrrrrrrigatoni?

You'rrrrrrrre rrrrrrrrrrrright! LOL

[dn010]

Sorry to go off topic here but were you ever able to install the Borgeson steering components?

[Farrar]

Sorry to go off topic here but were you ever able to install the Borgeson steering components?

Bill installed them. I guess he had some free time that day.

[Farrar]

I made another video trying to illustrate the problem and sent it to Bill. I am apparently the only human being on Earth who can hear the problem. However, I can say definitely that the steering wheel shakes like the handle on an old lawnmower. At higher speeds, it's more of a vibration than a shake, but that's only because the engine is turning faster.

Since there's no way of getting anyone to hear the problem, I can try to provide visual evidence of this, but I need to charge my videocamera's battery. Would it be enough to put a quarter on the air filter housing so that everyone can watch it bounce around? Maybe I could video the open door quivering like a leaf in a breeze? It's hard to show the interior of the car shaking, since it's mostly black in there.

Another problem, and maybe this is just endemic to carbureted engines: I can set the idle to 900 RPM when the engine is hot, but upon the next cold start, the fast-idle cam has the engine running at about 1,600 RPM and when I stomp on the throttle to disengage it, engine speed drops to about 700 RPM. I have to run the engine for about five minutes for the idle speed to get back up to where it was when I set it. So basically this means that I have to sit with the engine running for five minutes before I can go out and drive it with the air conditioning on. (This will be lots of fun in south Florida summers...)

None of this was happening when I first got the car back from Bill. This is the perplexing and very frustrating thing. It was all working perfectly. And then, suddenly, after sitting for several weeks, this all started happening. I don't get it. I had a leaky power valve and I replaced it, thinking it would solve the problem. It didn't. I'm back to square one.

Maybe it has always done this and I just didn't notice before. I doubt it, though.

I guess I can start pulling spark plugs and see what happens. But I want my wife to be there to call an ambulance right away if I suddenly get 40,000 volts up my arm.

[DMC5180]

Spark plugs are cheap, I’d replace them just for insurance, also confirm that the wires are securely attached to the plugs. Many years ago when Installed the Stage I exhaust with Nology wires, the engine ran very rough initially after the Wires were installed, it idled like a loping chevy 350. I discovered later, after having a conversation with Stephen Wynne, that the plug boots wire incorrectly positioned on the wires. The wire ends would not snap down to the plugs and this caused the coil energy to jump from the wires to the plug cap. After I fixed the boot positions on the wires and the wire ends were able to be snapped onto the plugs, the engine fired up and ran perfectly normal.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[dn010]

40,000 volts? Are you using a flame thrower coil? For what it’s worth, I tried using one a long time ago in one of my Mustangs and the power of it melted my rotor inside the cap. Same goes with the aftermarket coil I got for my D back when I was running the stock engine. I can’t remember what coil it was but it wouldn’t run right until I put the stock Bosch back in.

There is no reason you need a high power coil on a 3.0 v6. You might experiment with a stock coil and check your cap/rotor.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[opethmike]

I can *absolutely* hear the issue. That's a miss, through and through. I agree that the 40k coil is a complete waste and quite possibly problematic on this engine configuration. I know Bill would argue, but tough nuts, I'm a better engine tuner than him.

Check the inside of the cap and the rotor arm for any signs of corrosion and/or melting. Replace the plugs with new ones if you haven't already. Replace the coil with a stock coil and the plug wires with stock as well. Don't give up, but don't waste time doing anything else with the engine until you have *100%* gone through the ignition system.

[vwdmc16]

I totally agree you need to be 100% sure on the full ignition system, even try solve that by going back to older known good parts you may be able to get your hands on to verify exactly what you have that works now.

However may I also suggest once more that you go a little deeper than carb and ignition; check you valve timing too, for both cams.

This has been suggested before and discussed by Josh back in May 2018


looks perfect to me. Im sure bill is on it, but at this point it sounds like the timing (chains) are off.


Besides low vaccum

The engine will hesitate when you get on the gas
Performance will be poor across the power band
Poor fuel mileage

A worn out timing chain tensioner could also give these symptoms.

Its possible the cam timing has possibly changed again, or for the first time now due to the reasons above.
I don't mean to sound pushy on that but from all the symptoms you have discussed throughout this thread still sound like a mechanical timing fault to me and the heavy hybrid construction really adds alot more possibilities of issues that will not be obvious because it is never before documented or possibly tried in this exact combination before.

[dmruschell]

I can *absolutely* hear the issue. That's a miss, through and through. I agree that the 40k coil is a complete waste and quite possibly problematic on this engine configuration. I know Bill would argue, but tough nuts, I'm a better engine tuner than him.

Check the inside of the cap and the rotor arm for any signs of corrosion and/or melting. Replace the plugs with new ones if you haven't already. Replace the coil with a stock coil and the plug wires with stock as well. Don't give up, but don't waste time doing anything else with the engine until you have *100%* gone through the ignition system.

So can I. As soon as I heard the engine revving on acceleration, I could tell it was a misfire. A slight misfire will usually clear up above 2,000RPMs, but a complete miss will not. I think your slight misfire is now a complete miss.

Coils only produce the amount of voltage that the spark plug gap or their design allows them to. If there is a huge gap that takes 40,000 volts to bridge, then that is what the coil will produce. If it is unable to produce that much voltage, then the engine will not run. If there is a small gap that takes, for example, 5,000 volts to bridge, then the cap will only produce 5,000 volts, even if it's advertised as a 40,000 volt coil.

Putting large plug gaps on a small cap distributor can be potentially problematic if the spark decides to jump from one terminal to the next inside of the cap. When GM started using HEI (which included large plug gaps), they switched to large cap distributors.

I doubt your coil is the problem. A shared coil (one coil for the whole engine as opposed to one coil per cylinder) that is going bad will not cause a steady misfire like what you have. It will cause a random misfire or just not run at all.

I saw you reference the stock idle speed of the 3.0 engine. That specification means nothing as far as your engine is concerned since yours is modified.

Your RPM drops from Park to Drive and with the AC on are about right based on my own experience. The idle speed solenoids also don't really work that well. They have enough power to keep the throttle linkage from returning past its set point, but they don't have enough power to push the throttle linkage. So, your compressor will kick on and your idle speed will drop, even with the solenoid engaging. Blip the throttle, and the solenoid will extend and the idle speed will settle at a raised speed. Then, the Ac compressor disengages, which disengages the solenoid and returns the throttle linkage to the lower idle speed. This repeats every single time the compressor cycles.

Would that solenoid could do is allow you to set the idle speed screw at its lowest setting and then set the idle speed using the solenoid. Connect the solenoid to a switched electrical source. This will minimize dieseling. Though, if your engine is dieseling with an idle speed of 900, something is not right.

I suspect that, because of your misfire, the throttle blades are opened more than they would normally be, as a 6 cylinder running on 5 cylinders isn't running as efficiently as it should. Because of the wider opening, each cylinder is able to draw more air and fuel at idle than it normally would and can run-on more easily. There is also a dead cylinder that may have a lot of carbon build up that could self-ignite, also causing the dieseling (assuming compression is good on that cylinder).

Do exactly as Ron said and pull one plug wire at a time. When you pull a wire and it makes no difference in idle speed or how the engine runs, you've found your dead cylinder. You could also try aiming an IR gun at each of the exhaust header tubes and see if there's one that is colder than the rest; the cold one will be the dead cylinder Find the cause of that dead cylinder and service it as needed, replacing the plugs and wires as a set if one of them needs replacing. Best case is that something with the ignition system (a plug, wire, or cap/rotor) is malfunctioning. Worst case is that the cylinder has been gradually losing compression and now won't fire. Plugs and wires are cheap, so start there lol.

[Ron]

+1!

========

Some 2100s require another bracket you may have to scrounge through the junkyards to find.



Another problem, and maybe this is just endemic to carbureted engines: I can set the idle to 900 RPM when the engine is hot, but upon the next cold start, the fast-idle cam has the engine running at about 1,600 RPM and when I stomp on the throttle to disengage it, engine speed drops to about 700 RPM. I have to run the engine for about five minutes for the idle speed to get back up to where it was when I set it.Sounds like the fast idle cam is moving past the fast idle adjusting screw to soon (choke setting) or the the fast idle screw is set too far away from the cam step to do any good (fast idle screw setting). Your rebuild kit should include detailed instructions on how to set both...Make sure you do things in order and set the choke when the engine is dead cold, on a cold day.

[dmruschell]

+1!

========

Some 2100s require another bracket you may have to scrounge through the junkyards to find.

Sounds like the fast idle cam is moving past the fast idle adjusting screw to soon (choke setting) or the the fast idle screw is set too far away from the cam step to do any good (fast idle screw setting). Your rebuild kit should include detailed instructions on how to set both...Make sure you do things in order and set the choke when the engine is dead cold, on a cold day.

I've also run into this problem on various carburetors. Edelbrock/Carter carburetors are the biggest offenders, followed by Holleys.

Quadrajets, on the other hand, won't disengage the fast idle until the choke is almost fully opened. This can lead to the fast idle (nominally set for 1200RPMs) getting much faster than that as the engine gradually warms up.

I think Holleys and Quadrajets have a stepped fast idle so that as the engine warms up and the fast idle speeds up, it will step down the the next step, but not all the way down to the base idle speed screw.

Adjusting the choke to be a bit richer could help solve this problem, as long as the choke still fully opens when warm. But, if the engine doesn't die when put in gear during warm up, I woudln't worry too much about it.

Carburetors are not self-adjusting like EFI or even KJet is, and there are a lot of factors that affect engine idle speed and fuel mixture. Because of this, there will be some changes in how the engine runs based on the weather, altitude, engine temperature, etc. that can't fully be corrected. The only carburetor that even attempts to account for some of those are 1975-1980 Quadrajets. In the 70s, GM also started using air cleaners that would regulate the intake air temperature, balancing pulling in hot air from next to the exhaust manifold (stove pipe) with cold air from outside of the car. This, combined with the later Quadrajets, did make for a more consistently running engine, but with neither of those things, you'll notice inconsistencies.

[Farrar]

Wow, this thread has been busy while I've been away!

One of my jobs has has me getting up at 3:15am two days a week. It's played hell with the rest of my schedule... well, life, actually.

Today, I drove #2613 to my job in Miami. This involved 20+ minutes of driving at interstate speeds. I now concur with everyone who said it sounds like a misfire, because the engine runs perfectly smoothly at higher RPMs, except that on occasion while driving at speed, I will experience a loss of power and at the same time hear that "lawnmower" sound.

The fact that the sound and the loss of power happen at the same time clinches it for me. Even though my timing light registers on all six plugs, I am going to have to believe my ears.

Additional note for those interested in the cooling system: the temperature warmed up to about 250 degrees and stayed there, if the JEGS gauge is to be believed. That gauge's sensor is just below the water pump. Ambient temperature is 80 degrees.

I'm going to change the spark plugs tomorrow.

I'm still pretty happy that I can hop in the car and drive to Miami and back, though. That's pretty neat, considering what a disaster this car was just a couple of years ago. :)

[dmruschell]

Wow, this thread has been busy while I've been away!

One of my jobs has has me getting up at 3:15am two days a week. It's played hell with the rest of my schedule... well, life, actually.

Today, I drove #2613 to my job in Miami. This involved 20+ minutes of driving at interstate speeds. I now concur with everyone who said it sounds like a misfire, because the engine runs perfectly smoothly at higher RPMs, except that on occasion while driving at speed, I will experience a loss of power and at the same time hear that "lawnmower" sound.

The fact that the sound and the loss of power happen at the same time clinches it for me. Even though my timing light registers on all six plugs, I am going to have to believe my ears.

Additional note for those interested in the cooling system: the temperature warmed up to about 250 degrees and stayed there, if the JEGS gauge is to be believed. That gauge's sensor is just below the water pump. Ambient temperature is 80 degrees.

I'm going to change the spark plugs tomorrow.

I'm still pretty happy that I can hop in the car and drive to Miami and back, though. That's pretty neat, considering what a disaster this car was just a couple of years ago. :)

Does the timing light register steadily on all 6 plugs? A weak spark could still cause a misfire and register on the light, but possibly intermittently. If a wire is arcing, the timing light would also register a spark, but the spark isn't making it to the plug.

If replacing the plugs, wires, and making sure the cap and rotor are in working order doesn't solve the issue, you likely have bigger problems that won't be fun.

[Farrar]

Does the timing light register steadily on all 6 plugs? A weak spark could still cause a misfire and register on the light, but possibly intermittently. If a wire is arcing, the timing light would also register a spark, but the spark isn't making it to the plug.

If replacing the plugs, wires, and making sure the cap and rotor are in working order doesn't solve the issue, you likely have bigger problems that won't be fun.

Yes, the light is steady on all six.

To replace the wires I will need to learn how to make my own. These wires were made by Bill (although I swapped a cracked boot on one of them) because they have to have AMC/Jeep boots on one end and Dodge/Eagle boots on the other. Making plug wires is probably a skill I will need in the future, so I am happy to learn now to do it.

Last time I checked the cap and rotor were fine. But the plugs were black. I didn't think a dirty plug could cause a misfire (only oil-fouled plugs), but I just looked it up online and apparently it can, because the carbon buildup will create a path to ground that sidesteps the air gap on the plug.

[opethmike]

Last time I checked the cap and rotor were fine. But the plugs were black. I didn't think a dirty plug could cause a misfire (only oil-fouled plugs), but I just looked it up online and apparently it can, because the carbon buildup will create a path to ground that sidesteps the air gap on the plug.

Oh a dirty plug SURE can cause a misfire! While tuning the carb for my LS swap, I dirtied the hell out of several sets of plugs. And to remove the plugs on my car, you have to remove the exhaust headers. Quite fun!

Plug wire making isn't hard. Do yourself a favor and get a plug wire crimping tool.

[Ron]

+1

Did someone mention to pull the plug wires one at a time and listen.... :devil:

[opethmike]

+1

Did someone mention to pull the plug wires one at a time and listen.... :devil:

Does this mean we can hug?

[dmruschell]

Yes, the light is steady on all six.

To replace the wires I will need to learn how to make my own. These wires were made by Bill (although I swapped a cracked boot on one of them) because they have to have AMC/Jeep boots on one end and Dodge/Eagle boots on the other. Making plug wires is probably a skill I will need in the future, so I am happy to learn now to do it.

Last time I checked the cap and rotor were fine. But the plugs were black. I didn't think a dirty plug could cause a misfire (only oil-fouled plugs), but I just looked it up online and apparently it can, because the carbon buildup will create a path to ground that sidesteps the air gap on the plug.

Yeah, if the plugs are black, they should be replaced regardless of whatever issues you may be having.

I was trying to track down a misfire on my DeLorean for years. It was an intermittent misfire that would only occur occasionally, and it would disappear as quickly and randomly as it would appear. At one point, I had some great DeLorean mechanics check for vacuum leaks using starter fluid. An arcing plug wire ignited the fluid (and it quickly burned off, but did make me panic internally for a few seconds), so I replaced all of the plug wires. Soon after, the misfire returned.

This summer, I finally checked the plugs, and they were all darker than they should be. My KJet mixture is set correctly per the manual, but something must be slightly off enough that it just slightly fouled the plugs enough that one would quit sparking every so often. It was frustrating diagnosing it, but it's something that should have been obvious in hindsight. Good on you for not chasing your tail for years like I did.

[Ron]

Does this mean we can hug?I've been HERE (http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?14051-3-0L-engine-swap&p=240166&viewfull=1#post240166) for you for about a hundred posts now...

[Farrar]

I am too chicken to pull a plug wire on a running engine. I am not ashamed to admit it. Sorry, Ron. Cluck cluck.

Anyway, I picked up new spark plugs today and will install them tomorrow. I have a feeling they will solve this rough-running problem (which probably started with the leaky power valve, but I may never know). However, tomorrow is another "wake up at 3:15am" day so I don't want to do anything that requires a lot of critical thinking. :P I can come home from work, change the spark plugs, and then take a nap. LOL

As for the running-too-hot problem, I am tired of working on it piecemeal and I have chosen to simply "shotgun" the front end of the car.

Parts order list:

- radiator (DeLoreanGo)
- fan shroud (DeLoreanGo)
- fans (DeLoreanGo)
- front spoiler air duct (DMC Orlando)
- stainless brackets (DPI)
- poly bushings (DeLoreanGo)
- stainless fasteners (DeLoreanGo)

... my Christmas/Hanukkah/Festivus/Yule/Solstice/Krampus/Saturnalia present to myself. :)

(Wait ... is Krampus a festival? Eh, whatever.)

Am I missing anything from that list? So far all I have ordered is the brackets from DPI. (... who processed my order on a Sunday! Impressive.)

#2613 has not had a front spoiler air duct since before I bought it. I didn't know there was such a thing until Bill mentioned that it was missing on my car. Several people have told me that if the engine runs hotter on the highway and cooler at idle, it's because that duct is missing. I will be in Orlando next weekend, so I can save myself the shipping cost. :D

[opethmike]

There really is no harm in pulling wires on a running engine. I've done it literally hundreds of times and I am perfectly okay. That said, from the sounds of it, replacing the plugs should help quite a bit.

I like your decision to 'have at it' with the cooling system. I would suggest having a second person to help when you lower the radiator out, and lift it back up. It's a bit awkward and heavy.

[Farrar]

There really is no harm in pulling wires on a running engine. I've done it literally hundreds of times and I am perfectly okay. That said, from the sounds of it, replacing the plugs should help quite a bit.

I like your decision to 'have at it' with the cooling system. I would suggest having a second person to help when you lower the radiator out, and lift it back up. It's a bit awkward and heavy.

Good to know. Thanks.

...

I changed the spark plugs today. The last time I looked at the old ones (before the hot drive to Miami and back, about 60 miles) they were black. This time they were white, with little white crystal-looking deposits on them. Also, the porcelain insulators were all pink. Weird. Anyway, they're all out now, and replaced with middle-of-the-road NGKs.

I did not get as aggressive with the plug gap as Bill likes: the new plugs are gapped at .036". Cluck, cluck.

[dn010]

The plug gap would depend on what coil you're using, what ignition module you're using, etc.

Stock coil, stock gap. I know Bill was experimenting with Ford duraspark, HEI and whatever else. What coil and other goodies are you running?

[Farrar]

The plug gap would depend on what coil you're using, what ignition module you're using, etc.

Stock coil, stock gap. I know Bill was experimenting with Ford duraspark, HEI and whatever else. What coil and other goodies are you running?

Pertronix "Flamethrower" coil and Duralast ignition module. Ignition distributor is from a 6-cylinder AMC/Jeep of some vintage, even-firing of course.

[Ron]

That setup can more than handle the wider gap.

========

So, given the condition/color of the old plugs confirms all 6 are firing, the situation demands you purchase something similar to these:

58856 (https://www.amazon.com/Echodo-Electrical-Protective-Insulated-Insulating/dp/B075KK6SB3/ref=sr_1_11?ie=UTF8&qid=1544570673&sr=8-11&keywords=shock+proof+gloves) $14.00 (https://www.amazon.com/Echodo-Electrical-Protective-Insulated-Insulating/dp/B075KK6SB3/ref=sr_1_11?ie=UTF8&qid=1544570673&sr=8-11&keywords=shock+proof+gloves)

[Farrar]

That setup can more than handle the wider gap.

========

So, given the condition/color of the old plugs confirms all 6 are firing, the situation demands you purchase something similar to these:

58856 (https://www.amazon.com/Echodo-Electrical-Protective-Insulated-Insulating/dp/B075KK6SB3/ref=sr_1_11?ie=UTF8&qid=1544570673&sr=8-11&keywords=shock+proof+gloves) $14.00 (https://www.amazon.com/Echodo-Electrical-Protective-Insulated-Insulating/dp/B075KK6SB3/ref=sr_1_11?ie=UTF8&qid=1544570673&sr=8-11&keywords=shock+proof+gloves)

Nice find! I'll pick up a pair.

[Farrar]

Looks like I found the misfiring plug.

(Cell phone camera, apologies for poor quality.)

58868

At first I saw the discoloration on the outside of the plug boot, and then I saw the crack in the boot right in the middle of the discoloration. Not sure if it is very visible in the photo, but it is quite evident to the naked eye.

[SS Spoiler]

good catch....

[Ron]

+1

[Lwanmtr]

Duct tape n done....hehe

[Ron]

Naw...it just needs the plug wire connected securely to the plug...;-)

[Lwanmtr]

Naw...it just needs the plug wire connected securely to the plug...;-)


Thus the duct tape :)

[opethmike]

Nice, congrats on finding the misfire. Please let us know how it goes after you've made a new plug wire.

[Farrar]

My "winter project" will be radiator, shroud, fans, duct, and ... a whole set of new plug wires. (Two boots have failed so the others can't be far behind. Might as well just replace them all.)

Note to anyone considering doing a similar 3.0L swap: to have the appropriate boots for one set of wires, you will need to buy two sets of wires --
(1) for the distributor end, a set from an appropriate-vintage 6-cylinder AMC/Jeep, and
(2) for the spark plug end, a set from a 3.0L Eagle Premier/Dodge Monaco.
Once the boots are removed, you can make your new wires from whatever source you want - my preference for cable and terminals is MSD.

[dmruschell]

My "winter project" will be radiator, shroud, fans, duct, and ... a whole set of new plug wires. (Two boots have failed so the others can't be far behind. Might as well just replace them all.)

Note to anyone considering doing a similar 3.0L swap: to have the appropriate boots for one set of wires, you will need to buy two sets of wires --
(1) for the distributor end, a set from an appropriate-vintage 6-cylinder AMC/Jeep, and
(2) for the spark plug end, a set from a 3.0L Eagle Premier/Dodge Monaco.
Once the boots are removed, you can make your new wires from whatever source you want - my preference for cable and terminals is MSD.

Let us know if you have any questions/trouble with the radiator/fan project. The Workshop Manual should cover everything, but sometimes things come up since 30+ years has passed since the car was built.

[opethmike]

Having done radiators twice on DMCs, my suggestions follow:

1. Have a helper for bringing the old radiator down and out, as well as the new one back up.
2. Expect, and prepare for, many of the little screws to be either just spin or be seized. Have a dremel handy.
3. If you take off the wheels and go from the side, the radiator support brackets are much easier to deal with.
4. Drop the way bar, and take off the fan assembly for more room
5. If you don't mind draining the A/C gas, removing the condenser and radiator together is easier than separate.

[Farrar]

Mike, those are all very good tips. Thanks. I was wondering if it might be easier to drop the condenser at the same time.

I haven't had much time for the car over the holidays, but I did manage to swap out that bad spark plug boot. Tomorrow, if I have time, I will get to see if that solved the misfire problem.

[opethmike]

Quite a bit easier if you drop the condenser at the same time, yes.

[Farrar]

If it's not one thing, it's another. With the spark plug boot replaced and the battery voltage at 12.7, I decided to fire up the engine and tune the idle mixture: I set the screws out 1.75 turns as a cursory "enough to get started" position, then cranked.

And cranked.

And cranked.

I know it takes a few seconds to fill the fuel bowl when it's dry, but this was an inordinate amount of cranking. After several attempts, the starter stopped turning and when I turned the key I heard a metal "clank." I figured the starter had overheated, so I waited a few minutes to try again.

By now I figured the engine was flooded, so I propped the choke plate open with a 3/8" drill bit and cranked again. Every time it sounded like it was about to catch, I heard a "pop" sound. I looked behind me and saw a tiny waft of what looked like smoke coming from the carburetor. If I keep cranking, the cycle simply repeats: it sounds like it's going to catch, the "pop" sound can be heard, and then I have to keep cranking before it sounds like it's about to catch again.

Happy new year...

[dn010]

You have it set too lean. Too much air, not enough fuel. Try turning the screws in a quarter or half turn.

[opethmike]

You have it set too lean. Too much air, not enough fuel. Try turning the screws in a quarter or half turn.

Turning the screws IN would lean it out further, no?

[dn010]

Turning the screws IN would lean it out further, no?

My apologies, yes, inwards would lean the idle mixture on that carburetor.

[Farrar]

You have it set too lean. Too much air, not enough fuel. Try turning the screws in a quarter or half turn.


Turning the screws IN would lean it out further, no?


My apologies, yes, inwards would lean the idle mixture on that carburetor.

It's OK. I knew what you meant.

Two turns out, no start. Two and a half turns out, no start. So much cranking today that I've probably depleted the battery (too lazy to actually put a meter on it, though), so I put the trickle charger on it and will wait until tomorrow to try again.

Good thing I haven't spent $600+ on a new radiator, fans, and fan shroud yet. I don't think I'd be very happy sinking that much money into the cooling system of an engine that won't start. LOL

[Ron]

I decided to fire up the engine and tune the idle mixture: I set the screws out 1.75 turns as a cursory "enough to get started" position, then cranked.
Base setting for a 2150 is 1.50 turns out...


"enough to get started" position, then cranked.

And cranked.

And cranked.

If it starts and instantly dies, it could be the mixture screw settings. But since it just cranks and cranks, I'd suggest you look elsewhere... Whether they are all the way in or all but removed, it should fire off. (The setting has virtually nothing to do with cranking or running when off idle.)


By now I figured the engine was flooded, so I propped the choke plate open with a 3/8" drill bit and cranked again..
The engine must be warm when setting the screws, so the choke should have been fully open...

=======

I agree it is probably flooded now...Pull a few of the easy to get to plugs and see what they look like. If they look OK, look for a vacuum leak. (Possibly cross-wired?).

[Farrar]

Base setting for a 2150 is 1.50 turns out...

Thanks, I'll lean the mixture a full turn before trying again.


(Possibly cross-wired?).

Ron wins! I had wires 3 and 2 reversed at the cap. I can be a real doofus sometimes...

So yes, I propped the choke open and held the throttle, and cranked until the engine caught. Then I revved the engine until the extra fuel was gone, waited until the engine was warmish, and set the idle mixture.

Then I went on a test drive. Much better: the misfire is gone!

[opethmike]

That makes me so happy that I will let you buy me a donut.

[Farrar]

That makes me so happy that I will let you buy me a donut.

With that LS engine in the back, you can probably use your DMC to make donuts.

... Moving on ...

The coolant looks a bit mucky. I think I will flush it again, and also start using the DMC to drive to and from work (less than five miles each way and no highway driving) because it has been badly neglected these past few months and the brand-new tires have flat spots in them already. :P

[opethmike]

Slowly but surely getting there! Solving this misfire is a huge step. I personally would still go ahead and replace the remaining wires if you haven't done so already.

[Ron]

Thanks, I'll lean the mixture a full turn before trying again.1.75 - 1.50 = 0.25 turns...:wink:

[opethmike]

He said a full turn ron!!!!!!!!

[Ron]

Huh?:hmm:

[Farrar]

Two and a half turns out, no start.


Base setting for a 2150 is 1.50 turns out...


Thanks, I'll lean the mixture a full turn before trying again.

2.5 - 1 = 1.5

[Farrar]

I personally would still go ahead and replace the remaining wires if you haven't done so already.

You mean the remaining boots, right? The wires are fine, but I have had to replace two plug boots already. I have plenty of silicone spray so I may just do the other four this weekend.

[Ron]

AH! I see the source of the confusion -- I was still going by what's in the the quote I previously used...
I decided to fire up the engine and tune the idle mixture: I set the screws out 1.75 turns as a cursory "enough to get started" position, then cranked.

Now, if I wasn't worried about that hug..., I could keep up better!

[Farrar]

So how much material do I have to remove from the "new and improved" radiator duct before it will fit? On the left side, the A/C hoses are in the way of getting it installed, and on the right side, the body of the car is in the way of getting it installed.

I paid almost $200 for this posterboard-thin piece of ... er, piece of fiberglass (with casting flaws built-in, by the way) and every time I try to fit it into place, I can hear it cracking internally with each flex. If it is really so much easier to install than the original one-piece duct, then it's no wonder my car hasn't had one since before I bought it in 2007.

[DMC5180]

The OE plastic ones aren’t much better.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Farrar]

Radiator duct is no go, at least for now.

I started with the driver's side piece, since it looked like it would be the most difficult to install. Although I managed to grind and cut larger access for the A/C hoses, radiator lower bracket, and body, when I actually had it test-fitted, I could get it to line up with the radiator, but nothing else. The studs for the rock screen were at least two inches away.

I could narrow the margin by pulling the front spoiler toward the front of the car (essentially bringing the rock screen completely perpendicular with the ground, or even pointing forward slightly), but it still wouldn't allow the duct to fit over the studs. Although I could get it to line up a little, the studs were still too far away.

This may be yet another case of the Dreaded Previous Owner. This car's original engine had been badly overheated and I was not informed.
Now it looks like there may have been a front-end collision, of which I was also not informed:
(1) the fan shroud is damaged,
(2) the lower radiator brackets are cracked (when my car was in Bill's possession for the engine swap, he welded one of them because it was about to snap),
(3) the upper radiator brackets look bent, and
(4) the fiberglass behind the front fascia is cracked.

(The front fenders also seem to droop slightly - if you tried to draw a straight line across the rub strips, you wouldn't be able to, and underneath the rubber strips at the inner edges of the fenders there is dimpling toward the front.)

I am wondering if it would be possible to get the radiator duct to fit by removing the current lower radiator brackets one at a time and installing new ones, with new bushings, to angle the radiator slightly up and rearward (when I push on it, it doesn't go straight up, but pivots) -- and then I could pull the front spoiler into alignment to make the radiator duct fit. What do y'all think?

[Farrar]

I guess photos would help, right?

58994

58995

58996

[Farrar]

I drained two more gallons of dirty fluid from the cooling system today. The cylinder liners are still shedding rust, but at this point the particles are so fine that they remain suspended in the liquid rather than sinking to the bottom of the container I drain into. This is progress -- and so is the fact that rather than draining and filling every day, I can now go a week before the liquid in the expansion tank looks dirty, prompting me to drain and fill.

It's warming up again here in south Florida. Soon I will need to re-charge the a/c.

And the ATF cooler seems to have sprung a leak at one of the fittings. I have an aftermarket cooler installed at the front of the car, not the stock setup, so thankfully it makes this problem a little easier to address.

One thing at a time. :)

[Farrar]

Drove for about an hour yesterday in stop-and-go traffic. Temperature never got up to 220°F. Cooling fans both working. Still haven't installed the radiator duct (have to install new brackets & bushings first, which came in the mail today).

Checked the coolant this morning. Looks good:

59092

This weekend's project will be the radiator brackets & bushings. If I'm lucky, they will raise the radiator enough to where the duct will install.

[Farrar]

Drove #2613 to Miami and back today, around 50 miles round trip. Temperature on the way down rose to and held steady at just underneath 220°F. That was in the daylight hours with some clouds and light rain in the middle of the drive. I did not use the air conditioning.

At the end of my shift and before heading home I checked the coolant. It was a little less green, but the level was exactly where it should be.

On the way back home after sunset, the temperature rose to and then held steady at 205°F. I again drove through some very light rain, for about five minutes.

Tomorrow morning I will do another drain and fill of coolant. I don't want to count my chickens before they hatch, but it seems like this contaminated coolant problem may soon be over. This weekend I will work on installing the radiator duct, starting with the lower brackets and bushings. If things continue to improve, I will look into a new fan shroud and cooling fans. Buying just the fans and shroud will save me a bundle over buying them along with a new radiator.

Along the way I will need to investigate why the circuit breaker for one of the cooling fans keeps tripping. I have each fan on its own circuit breaker. When one or both of them are tripped, the "Fan Fail" light comes on. On today's drives, the "Fan Fail" light came on a few times, and then turned back off. I could hear the relay click as the circuit breaker reset, and with the windows open at a stop I could hear the other fan turn on (a slight drop in the fans' pitch). #2613's fans are not original, but they are extremely loud as the originals are said to be. Since I don't know how old they are, when I replace the shroud, I will replace the fans at the same time.

Other things of note: I am extremely pleased with my dome light and door switch modifications. They haven't given me any problems since installation. Nor has the rear headliner, which is attached by industrial-strength velcro instead of brackets. The door light circuit needs to be perfected, however: at the moment, the lights only come on when the driver's door is open, and there is no convenient delay-off when the door is closed.

[Farrar]

Forgot to mention that I pulled out of a steep driveway when leaving the parking lot. I think I hit the sway bar brackets again. I will look at them in the morning. They've been scraped and painted a number of times over the years. But somewhere I have a set of brackets and bushings for the sway bar. I wonder: is it possible to do those one at a time? I know the bar is under pressure and likely to spring away from me if I try to do both at once. Hmm.

[dn010]

The sway bar will just fall towards the ground a bit with both brackets off. Easy to push back up and in position. You can do one at a time if you loosen the one you are not removing.

[DMC-81]

Forgot to mention that I pulled out of a steep driveway when leaving the parking lot. I think I hit the sway bar brackets again. I will look at them in the morning. They've been scraped and painted a number of times over the years. But somewhere I have a set of brackets and bushings for the sway bar. I wonder: is it possible to do those one at a time? I know the bar is under pressure and likely to spring away from me if I try to do both at once. Hmm.

Congrats on getting the car's cooling system to this point. :thumbup:

One thing I always do in a "low slung car" is enter and leave steep grade driveways/ramps at an angle, sometimes at 45 degrees.... almost to the point where it is one tire at a time going over the gutter. Speaking of those, because of the pronounced gutters in Florida, I also take them slow to minimize suspension movement. It works well with the DeLorean..... I figure the less stress on the relatively weak front end, the better.... Mechanical Empathy if you will.

I recently drove a Diablo and that car seems to measure the ground clearance in millimeters.:paranoid:

[opethmike]

It also helps to hug the car.

[Farrar]

Congrats on getting the car's cooling system to this point. :thumbup:

Thanks! Slow progress is still progress, right? :) I did another drain/fill yesterday after driving about 90 minutes, then a five hour break, then another 90 minutes. Coolant was again slightly brown, but the cooling system is definitely struggling less. I am optimistic about the radiator duct, especially since I have already cut it on one side to clearance the A/C hoses better.

(Side note: I noticed that the radiator duct no longer has a manufacturer stamp on it. Makes me wonder if the initial run was done by a third party, and then Houston bought the mold and started making their own.)

(Another side note: I initially ground material away using my Dremel, but it's actually thin enough to cut with sharp scissors. I recommend scissors. It's faster and less dusty. Wear safety glasses and a respirator.)


One thing I always do in a "low slung car" is enter and leave steep grade driveways/ramps at an angle, sometimes at 45 degrees.... almost to the point where it is one tire at a time going over the gutter. Speaking of those, because of the pronounced gutters in Florida, I also take them slow to minimize suspension movement. It works well with the DeLorean..... I figure the less stress on the relatively weak front end, the better.... Mechanical Empathy if you will.

I recently drove a Diablo and that car seems to measure the ground clearance in millimeters.:paranoid:

I've seen a few Diablos here in south Florida. I live in the Fort Lauderdale area, but whenever I am in Miami I see a lot more "exotic imports." Mostly around here the "exotics" are Teslas. LOL

The previous owner of my car lowered the front end by over four inches. (!!!) The sway bar brackets took a hell of a beating. I raised the front by installing half of a set of Eibach springs from Houston. Although the springs don't "match" front to rear, I do like the stance. (Note: photo taken a few years ago -- before side stripes were installed, and before roof cage was tightened down.)

59102


It also helps to hug the car.

The car hugs the road quite well. I like my Mickey Thompson tires. :)

I turned 40 yesterday, and today I am giving #2613 a present: some new bushings and brackets. I'll start with the new radiator brackets with new polyurethane bushings. Then I'll move on to the sway bar bracket/bushing kit that I got from DPNW (ages ago before I started having engine trouble), which also includes polyurethane bushings. I know some owners prefer the stock feel of the rubber bushings, but as an experiment I upgraded some bushings on my daily driver with poly and I like the stiffness and longevity. I have ramps and plenty of silicone grease, so I should be OK. But I am really hoping that I can get that radiator duct on soon.

[Farrar]

I think before I got this car it was in a front-end collision. I noticed a few things today.

I removed the LH lower radiator bracket and noticed it is twisted. As a result, the new bracket will not fit in its place.

The metal pieces holding the studs to the bottom of the radiator also are not straight.

While looking up from underneath, I noticed the upper brackets are bent - bowed out slightly rearward.

The fan shroud's point of damage is evident with the lower radiator bracket removed: the shroud impacted the front frame extension. There is almost no clearance to remove & replace the lower radiator bracket on the LH side. When I pushed up on the radiator with my hand, that's when I saw the point of impact -- a chunk of the shroud missing there, with a crack following from the point of impact.

I didn't notice all of this at once, of course ... first I loosened the LH bracket and tried raising the radiator slightly with a piece of wood and small floor jack.

I also noticed that the new transmission cooler is leaking at one of the fittings. Not the end of the world, but makes working under the front end a bit messy.

More good news: when pushing and pulling on the radiator, I gripped it with my hand from the lower left. Now the side tank is leaking. I thought these brass radiators were supposed to be indestructible?

I think I'm going to have to just shotgun the front end. Might as well replace the condenser while I'm at it. If I remove it, it'll break.

Question: how many bushings are supposed to be used on the lower radiator brackets? The schematic shows one per side for a total of two, but the parts manual and the DMC website say four are needed.

Edit: I guess photos would be useful.

59106

59107

[DMC5180]

The support bushings 2 pieces per side with backing washers.

Order of assembly

Radiator (item 5)
Rubber bushing mount (item 22)
Support bracket (item 19) LH or RH
Rubber bushing mount (item 22)
Large washer (item 15)
Nyloc nut M10 (item 16)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Farrar]

Thanks, Dennis! The schematic in my parts manual is wrong ... And it's wrong on the DMC website, too!

Okeydokey, so ... before I try installing the radiator duct again, I need to do some more work.

Here's my parts list:

- radiator upper brackets, stainless steel (already purchased)
- radiator, aluminum
- fan shroud, stainless steel
- cooling fans
- radiator lower brackets (already purchased)
- lower bushings, polyurethane (have two, will order two more)
- 10mm (I.D.) x 30mm (O.D.) washers (2), stainless steel [for lower brackets]
- M10 x 17mm lock nuts (2), stainless steel [for lower brackets]
- M6 x 10mm hex bolts (2), stainless steel [for upper brackets]
- M6 spring washers (2), stainless steel [for upper brackets]

I'm planning to buy the radiator, fan shroud, and fans from DPI; I believe they come assembled as a unit.

I am also seriously considering swapping out the a/c condenser at the same time. If so, what hardware should I buy? I am trying to use stainless wherever possible. South Florida is a high humidity environment, and my garage is not climate-controlled.

[DMC5180]

There are small M5 bolts w/ nyloc nuts that hold the condenser to the radiator. However, I wouldn’t use stainless. The potential for galvanic corrosion to occur between the hardware and aluminum radiator/condenser would be rather high in your environment. Stick with clear zinc and assemble with anti-seize. You shouldn’t have anything to worry about down the road.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Farrar]

There are small M5 bolts w/ nyloc nuts that hold the condenser to the radiator. However, I wouldn’t use stainless. The potential for galvanic corrosion to occur between the hardware and aluminum radiator/condenser would be rather high in your environment. Stick with clear zinc and assemble with anti-seize. You shouldn’t have anything to worry about down the road.

Good point! I had forgotten that stainless and aluminum don't get along. Thanks for reminding me!

[Farrar]

I'm going all out: the new radiator brackets will be installed with stainless washers and lock nuts.

59127

(Also arrived today, but not pictured: new a/c condenser, O-rings, and accumulator.)

[opethmike]

Yes, you should always lock your nuts.

[Lwanmtr]

Yes, you should always lock your nuts.

thats what she said

[opethmike]

thats what she said

Huh?

[Farrar]

Giggity?

[opethmike]

I am so lost.

[Ron]

It's a hyphenation thing...

[Farrar]

My new radiator/shroud/fans from DPI have not yet arrived, but I am wondering if I should address the damaged fiberglass while I have the condenser and radiator out. Seems to me I have two options:

(1) make any repairs I can while I have access, or
(2) ignore the damage and just keep driving, like I did for 11 years when I didn't know it was there.

Is the fiberglass at that area of the body a single layer that can be viewed from both sides? Or is it like the area behind the fuel tank, where it's layers of fiberglass with foam in the middle?

[Farrar]

More to the point: is the fiberglass behind the fascia structural? If not, I may just leave it alone.

[Lwanmtr]

Someone with deeper knowledge may know more, but It's structural in that it holds the impact absorber, but I dont think it does much more. Mine has a little damaged area so Im not touching it either.

[Farrar]

It's structural in that it holds the impact absorber,

Hm.

My new radiator is still in transit, so today out of boredom I went poking around underneath. When I tap my finger around the damaged area, it sounds solid, and when I push on the area with my fingers, it doesn't move. It seems that the material there is more than just one layer of fiberglass. I'd be willing to bet that if I were able to look at it from the other side, I wouldn't see any evidence of an impact. I think I will leave it alone.

...

So, getting back to the original problem: I sure hope that new upper and lower radiator brackets solve this clearance issue with the radiator duct. If not, I may have to figure out some way of shimming it. With new bushings at the bottom, though, I hope it doesn't require much shimming, because it wouldn't be long before I run out of room on the studs!

[Lwanmtr]

Yeah, if its not gonna cause issues, leave it alone...no one will see it anyway...cept superman.

[Farrar]

It's like Christmas Eve here as I eagerly anticipate a package from Tallmadge, Ohio. :)

Currently waiting patiently in my garage:
- new condenser
- condenser mounting hardware
- radiator mounting hardware
- new a/c accumulator
- O-rings for condenser & accumulator connections

Trivia: the condenser is the only a/c component left on the car that is original. A few years ago I replaced the hoses, evaporator, accumulator, compressor, and orifice. Because of the 3.0L swap, this car is on its *fourth* compressor since 2007. LOL

Maybe as long as I have the system open I might as well get a new orifice from AutoZone (which also rents out a removal/replacement tool set) and replace the variable orifice valve I installed several years ago. The VOV may be clogged with oil, which is also the reason I am replacing the accumulator. My a/c system makes weird noises when it's shut off. When the compressor started squeaking, I added more oil to the system, which didn't help (compressor clutch itself was failing), so now I think the system has too much oil in it -- hence my new accumulator.

A new orifice is only $2, so maybe I will pick up two, and if I break one trying to install it I will have a spare. Heh.

[DMC-81]

It's like Christmas Eve here as I eagerly anticipate a package from Tallmadge, Ohio. :)

Currently waiting patiently in my garage:
- new condenser
- condenser mounting hardware
- radiator mounting hardware
- new a/c accumulator
- O-rings for condenser & accumulator connections

Trivia: the condenser is the only a/c component left on the car that is original. A few years ago I replaced the hoses, evaporator, accumulator, compressor, and orifice. Because of the 3.0L swap, this car is on its *fourth* compressor since 2007. LOL

Maybe as long as I have the system open I might as well get a new orifice from AutoZone (which also rents out a removal/replacement tool set) and replace the variable orifice valve I installed several years ago. The VOV may be clogged with oil, which is also the reason I am replacing the accumulator. My a/c system makes weird noises when it's shut off. When the compressor started squeaking, I added more oil to the system, which didn't help (compressor clutch itself was failing), so now I think the system has too much oil in it -- hence my new accumulator.

A new orifice is only $2, so maybe I will pick up two, and if I break one trying to install it I will have a spare. Heh.

Something to look for when removing the variable orfice valve: It may be clogged because of a bend in the tube that it sits in. It has a brass pin in the middle that helps make the variation work. If it is bent too much that valving won't work. Yes, I would get 2 of the fixed orifice valves. They are inexpensive and more resistant to bending.

[Farrar]

Something to look for when removing the variable orfice valve: It may be clogged because of a bend in the tube that it sits in. It has a brass pin in the middle that helps make the variation work. If it is bent too much that valving won't work. Yes, I would get 2 of the fixed orifice valves. They are inexpensive and more resistant to bending.

Thanks, Dana! If the variable orifice is bent, that could explain the weird sounds the system makes when I shut it off. I'll go with the standard orifice.

[opethmike]

Yes, be sure to always ensure that your orifice is variable.

[dn010]

I'm using a VOV and I get a weird sort of deep hiss/bubbling sound from the evaporator area when I shut the AC off. I don't recall what, if anything, it sounded like prior to using the VOV but I think I will be going back to standard if and when I ever have the system open again.

[Farrar]

I'm using a VOV and I get a weird sort of deep hiss/bubbling sound from the evaporator area when I shut the AC off. I don't recall what, if anything, it sounded like prior to using the VOV but I think I will be going back to standard if and when I ever have the system open again.

Mine makes the same sound. It didn't when I first put the VOV in, but it started not long after I had been using the system for a little while. Bill said it sounds like my DeLorean skipped lunch and its stomach is growling. LOL

[DMC5180]

There could be debris on the VOV screen causing additional restriction to the liquid refrigerant flow.

For the most part the gurgling is just the operating system pressure differential equalizing when the the Compressor stops.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Farrar]

New radiator/fan/shroud assembly from DPI arrived yesterday. I set it down underneath the new condenser and snapped a picture. The "universal" condenser is slightly smaller side-to-side than stock. The difference is exaggerated by the fact that the side tanks on the new aluminum radiator are narrower than the ones on the brass radiator.

59187

I will put spacers between the radiator and condenser. But the question is: how long do the spacers need to be? This is where I would appreciate some community input. The gap between the radiator and condenser on #2613 is 7/16". The condenser is likely original. The brass radiator is not. However, the brass radiator was sold by and installed at DMC Florida by a previous owner. I don't know what the "stock" radiator-condenser gap is for a DeLorean. If anyone reading this thread would care to go out and measure their car's radiator-condenser gap, I'd appreciate it, because I am curious.

On the internet, recommended radiator-condenser gaps can be anywhere from "as close as you can get it" (various car forums) to "no more than 3/16 of an inch" (a site that sells a/c components for old cars that didn't have factory air). Some modern manufacturers go to the effort of putting a rubber gasket between the condenser's outer edge and the radiator behind it. All of this seems to be to try to minimize air turbulence between the two components. Or maybe they are trying to make sure that as much "condenser air" as possible also becomes "radiator air." Obviously, DeLorean Motor Company didn't use a gasket behind the condenser. And a 7/16" gap, if that is stock, was not considered to be detrimental to proper air flow, at least not with the added help of the air duct in the front and the fan shroud in the back.

To my knowledge no DeLorean owner has ever solved an overheat problem by moving the condenser closer to the radiator. So probably I will just duplicate the stock gap, or maybe lessen it slightly. I could probably make a rubber gasket, but I don't think it would accomplish anything.

[dn010]

It is impossible for me to get in there and get a measurement but here is a photo if it helps. Delorean EU aluminum radiator and stock condensor.

59188

[Farrar]

Thanks, Dan! It just occurred to me that anyone with the radiator duct installed wouldn't be able to get a caliper in there to measure. Oops. That's what I get for driving a DeLorean with no duct for over a decade. LOL

Elsewhere, Toby says 7/16" sounds about right. A little more or a little less won't hurt anything. I'll cut my spacers accordingly.

[DMC5180]

Did you call Josh B for his recommendation, since it’s his parts?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[BABIS]

59198

I wonder if the #4 - 24 - 27 seals are meant to be installed between the radiator and the condenser or the radiator and the radiator duct (I guess the second one)

[Farrar]

Did you call Josh B for his recommendation, since itÂ’s his parts?

No. It's not his condenser. I just bought the radiator, fans, and fan shroud combo from him. Helpfully, the aluminum radiator does not have studs sticking out at the bottom but instead uses bolts installed from underneath. This may come in handy: if I need to add washers above the lower brackets to move the radiator up, I won't have to worry about running out of stud since I can just buy longer bolts.


I wonder if the #4 - 24 - 27 seals are meant to be installed between the radiator and the condenser or the radiator and the radiator duct (I guess the second one)

Great minds think alike! Out of curiosity this morning I pulled out my parts manual and found the illustration. The workshop manual in its procedures for removal/replacement of the radiator & condenser mention nothing about a seal or where it's located. But there they are in the parts manual, with their own part numbers and everything.

So I think I have to issue a correction. The illustration makes it look like the seals are installed *forward* of the radiator. That would mean that they go between the radiator and the condenser. I'll have to go to the hardware store and find some foam rubber and cut it to fit. If it's squishy enough, it will be held in by tension alone so I won't have to worry about any adhesive.

[Farrar]

Somehow, Josh at DPI found out that I was curious about the radiator-condenser gap, so he shot me an e-mail. It was very kind of him to do so, considering how busy I know he must be. He said 7/16" gap is just fine. Thanks, Josh! :)

In other news, I found in my stockpile of parts some rubber gasket material which, although it has an adhesive back, should work just fine for that gap.

Tomorrow after work I'll head to AutoZone and pick up some orifice tubes and (with luck) an orifice removal-replacement tool. I will spray penetrating oil on any rusty fasteners I see and let them soak overnight. By Saturday morning I should be good to go, and with luck I can knock out most of this project over the weekend.

Side note: How much do you want to bet that I ground away too much material from that radiator duct when I was trying to get it to fit around my incorrectly-mounted radiator? I might need to put a rubber seal around the sides of the duct, too! LOL

[Farrar]

Here's another mystery.

In the instructions for replacing the radiator, the workshop manual says:

"Ensure foam strip is fitted to underside of body, to about top of radiator assembly."

No foam strip is in the diagram, and no such part is mentioned in the parts list. And, naturally, no such thing is installed on my car.

What to do?

[Lwanmtr]

Pretend?

[Farrar]

Pretend?

LOL ... Might as well. Something tells me that foam strip (if there ever was one) is integral to the functioning of the cooling system.

[Lwanmtr]

Probably just something to cushion things from vibration a little.

[Farrar]

Taking an air conditioning & water break. Snapped a couple of photos of progress so far. To anyone planning to remove the radiator/condenser/fans I highly recommend removing the sway bar first. Once it's out of the way there's room to just drop the whole assembly straight down.

59203


59204

[Lwanmtr]

You get even more access if you lift the body off the frame :biggrin:

[Farrar]

You get even more access if you lift the body off the frame :biggrin:

You jinxed me.

OK, not really, but now I'm stuck and it sucks.

Some, uh, "genius" decided to *WELD* the upper radiator supports to the frame -- the supports that have been bent into an "S" shape from a front-end collision (I found more evidence of a collision, BTW). The supports aren't flimsy enough to where I can straighten them by hand, besides they're rusty and I want to replace them with the new stainless ones from DPI.

Here's what I would do if I had access from above:
- cut through the welds
- drill out the rusted screw (I'm guessing that's what happened: the original fastener snapped and the P.O./shop decided to weld the brace on instead)
- grind the area flat
- paint the area
- insert a rivnut
- proceed with radiator installation

But how in the heck am I supposed to do all of this with just the little access from the front and side?

I'm going to have to stop for the day and think about my options now.

GAH. Old cars. :P

[Lwanmtr]

Old cars keep ya outta trouble....lol.

The radiator is welded to the frame? What?

[Farrar]

The radiator is welded to the frame? What?

No, not the radiator -- the upper radiator supports are welded to the frame.

These are the long S-shaped brackets that attach at the top of the radiator on one end and the frame on the other end. At the radiator end, there are studs which "hook" into the radiator's upper flange and attach with a nut. At the frame end, they have a hole and attach with a bolt and spring washer (except on my car, apparently).

I'm going to have to make a phone call or two and beg for some advice.

[Lwanmtr]

Ohh..misread it...lol

seems someone mighta lost the bolts and rather than find proper ones had a welding kit laying around

[Farrar]

Found out why there are no bolt holes there.

The entire crumple extension (sorry I keep saying "frame" but it's hard for me to tell where the frame ends and the crumple extension begins) has had an extra layer of metal welded on to it. And whoever did so did a good job, too. But in doing so they covered up where the original weld nuts (or rivet nuts) are (or were) for the upper radiator brackets to attach. So, since they had their welder out, they just welded the brackets on. Nice idea in theory, but it makes me wonder whether the brackets were bent and twisted by a front-end collision, or by someone saying "Ah, crap, we didn't weld these on in the right spot -- just bend them until we can get the radiator on." Whatever the reason, I now have to deal with it.

Here's what I'd like to do.

(1) Remove the radiator, leaving the upper brackets in place.
(2) Remove the wheels for convenience.
(3) Cut/grind off the upper brackets.
(4) Test fit the new radiator, including the air duct, making sure that everything at the bottom lines up properly. (Leave the condenser alone for now.)
(5) Fit the new upper radiator brackets to the radiator.
(6) Mark where the new upper brackets meet the frame.
(7) Remove the new radiator, duct, brackets, etc.
(8) Use my marks to drill a new hole and install a rivet nut (or rivet stud if I am feeling fancy, although they aren't available in metric so I'll probably go with stainless rivet nuts).
(9) Proceed with new radiator/condenser/duct install as previously planned.

I think this might work.

[Lwanmtr]

Good luck. More than I'd be able to do...my solution would be 'add it to the list of things I need done up at DMCNW'..hehe

[Farrar]

Work continues.

59216

In this photo can be seen the damaged fan shroud. It appears to have been damaged by impacting the front frame extension.

Also, those don't appear to be stock fans, but next to the engine they were probably the loudest thing on the car. I look forward to replacing them with the new DPI-provided Spal fans, which have the added benefit of being lower profile as well as quieter and more efficient.

[Lwanmtr]

Yeah, my fans sound like jet engines too...on my list of things to do after I get the important stuff done.

[Farrar]

For whatever reason, this car's crumple extension has been modified: more metal has been welded to the outside of the crumple extension, doubling or slightly more than doubling the effective thickness of the material there.

As a result, stock radiator brackets simply will not sit flush with the front of the crumple extension.

The previous owner (or his mechanic) may have, uh, "solved" the problem by twisting the brackets until the holes for the fasteners lined up, then torqued down the fasteners and allowed them to bend the brackets even more. As a result, things don't line up the way they should.

I am taking a subtler approach: modifying the brackets by cutting away material that interferes with the crumple extension.

This means that the tab at the side which sits atop the crumple extension recall brackets has to be removed, as do the lips on both sides of the forward-facing vertical portion of the lower radiator brackets. I have swapped out shorter fasteners for the sides and attached the recall brackets with them. This means that the recall brackets no longer share a fastener with the radiator brackets.

Here's the LH lower radiator bracket, modified to fit the beefed-up crumple extension.

59224

59225

As you can see, I have to remove more material on the outer edge (almost all the way down to the bend) than the inner edge.

I'm sure this weakens the brackets slightly, but only on the face that already has a center reinforcement, and sits flush with the crumple extension. I tried to flex the modified bracket with my hands and it wouldn't move. I think it will be good enough.

All of this is just so that I can *test fit* the radiator and figure out where to drill my holes for the upper brackets! LOL

[Lwanmtr]

Hooray for PO modifications, eh?

[opethmike]

Wow, what a nightmare. Glad to see you powering through it!

[Farrar]

I decided to give everyone a better view of what I had to do to the radiator brackets by taking some photos of the passenger-side bracket as I was modifying it. I hope these will be useful.

59227

59228

Just a few minutes' work with a hacksaw and a file.

With the brackets suitably modified and installed, it was time to test fit the radiator and duct. I removed the fan/shroud assembly from the radiator (see below) and sat it onto the lower radiator brackets, then inserted the bushings, washers, and bolts. Pretty easy job. The new brackets fit the new radiator just fine.

I was able to test fit the radiator duct, which means that my theory about the old radiator brackets was correct: the bent brackets prevented the radiator from sitting in a place which allowed the installation of the duct. This is probably why there was no duct installed when I bought the car in 2007.

There is a problem with the radiator duct and the aftermarket radiator: the duct is offset, relative to the radiator, slightly toward the driver's side. This means that there is a gap on the passenger's side, and material needs to be removed on the driver's side in order to accommodate the lower corner of the radiator. This will be dealt with prior to final installation. Apart from that, the fit is fine.

After installing the radiator duct, I installed the upper radiator brackets (using hex nuts with captive spring washers to make life easier) and looked at where they meet the crumple extension. Unsurprisingly, they don't come down where the old brackets were welded on. Surprisingly, they seem to be sitting forward of where the weld nuts are sitting on the inside -- or maybe I just can't get a good idea of where they are when looking in with my flashlight.

I marked through the hole in the upper brackets where they meet the frame. Tomorrow I will drill holes in preparation for installing rivnuts. If I can source rivnuts and a rivnut tool locally, I'll get back to work tomorrow. If I can't, I'll have to order one and wait.

Here's a question for the experts: I was unable to slip the radiator through the gap between the front spoiler and the lower brackets until I removed the fans/shroud. I wonder how I am going to manage installing it with the fan shroud on the back and the condenser on the front. It would be easier with the front spoiler removed, but do I really want to open that can of worms? Already two of the studs on the driver's side of the front spoiler have let go, quite some time ago, and I'm afraid to touch any of the rest. But there doesn't seem to be a way of getting the whole assembly installed, unless I install the lower brackets to the radiator/fan/condenser assembly and support it with a block of wood (which is all I have on hand) while I attach the radiator brackets to the crumple extension. If anyone knows the trick to removing the assembly as a unit without removing the front spoiler, I'd appreciate it if you'd share it with me.

This is exhausting (especially the fiddly-as-hell radiator duct) but exciting. Thanks to everyone for your help and encouragement!

[Farrar]

By the way -- just *HOW MUCH* metal was welded on by a previous owner? Here's a photo I got with my phone earlier today. Passenger side. Looks like they used 12 gauge steel.

59229

Um. The picture shows up properly orientated on my phone. Not sure why it's sideways here. Maybe an admin can fix it. Anyway, there it is.

[Lwanmtr]

That doesnt look healthy...lol

[DMC5180]

Fixed
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190211/f0258d2218ad587b7b94d3752ce5b819.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Farrar]

Thanks, Dennis!

[DMC5180]

Thanks, Dennis!

Before posting go to your photos and confirm orientation. If not correct, Tap edit > then tap the rotate icon as needed > save. Now it will upload correctly when chosen.

You can edit your post by deleting and reposting the image corrected if with in 30 minutes of the original posting.

When taking photos always hold phone near vertical if possible. Camera in top left corner for Landscape. Top right for portrait.

It’s an Iphone thing [emoji6]




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[dn010]

Yep, I attempted to do the same thing when my first frame's front extension was a mess of rust - weld plates over it and hope for the best. For me though, it did not work out so well. Good to see you're making your way through it, seems nothing can ever be easy!

[Farrar]

I was too tired to get any photos of the radiator test fitted yesterday, so here is one from each side. The radiator duct has been removed already because it requires "clearancing" before final installation.

59233

59234

The aluminum radiator is lighter than the fans & stainless steel shroud assembly that I removed from it (DPI ships the entire assembly as a unit) so it was easy to lift up and install. Then I installed the upper brackets.

At least one person has mentioned to me that I would be better off installing the radiator, condenser, and fans/shroud as a single unit. However, I can't see any way of doing that with the lower brackets installed. Is the idea to attach the shroud and condenser, attach the lower brackets to the radiator, and then push the entire assembly up into place, having it supported from below by other means while attaching the lower brackets to the frame? It was easy for me to position my block of wood underneath the old radiator while it was sitting in the car, but I imagine it is going to be a lot trickier to try to hold the new assembly up while positioning the wood underneath. I may need to enlist my wife's help for that. Or if anyone else knows of a one-person method of installing everything together, please kindly let me know.

[SS Spoiler]

Slide a floor jack with a 2+4 to push radiator up and hold position...

[Farrar]

Slide a floor jack with a 2+4 to push radiator up and hold position...

Thanks. I used that technique to get the old one out. It was very wobbly, though, and fell to one side. (Didn't matter since it was already cracked.)

[opethmike]

Hug the radiator.

[Lwanmtr]

:grouphugg: Radiators need hugs too

[Farrar]

The new radiator is so light and delicate. I don't think I should hug it.

[DMC5180]

Farrar,

Does your car not have the bleed hose nipple welded to the aluminum coolant pipe on the passenger side? I see a splice coupler with fitting sticking out of it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[nullset]

There was a certain person who went around saying that the crumple tubes needed to be strengthened, and wouldn't listen to anyone who disagreed.

The crumple tube is there to save your life in a collision - by crumpling. Strengthening it like that prevents it from doing it's job.

I'm sorry to see that someone did that to your car!

It'll _probably_ be fine, but it almost definitely didn't need to be done.

[Farrar]

Does your car not have the bleed hose nipple welded to the aluminum coolant pipe on the passenger side?

No. The bleed hose runs to a T-fitting which is connected to the heater core.


I see a splice coupler with fitting sticking out of it.

That is my radiator drain:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CoWYW4CRAbk

[Farrar]

Spent a few hours in the garage yesterday. Here's what I accomplished.

Cut and stuck 1/2" bulb seal material to the back of the new condenser:

59307

Installed it to the radiator with 7/16" spacers:

59308

Installed Weatherpak connectors:

59309

Drilled new holes and installed rivnuts into crumple extension for the upper radiator brackets (forgot to get a photo).

Not enough room to lift assembly with fan shroud, so had to install it separately. Started by lifting the radiator/condenser into place. Fastened upper radiator brackets and attached hoses.

Removed driver-side lower radiator bracket to allow for installation of fan shroud.

Installed center lower fan shroud fastener and replaced driver-side lower radiator bracket.

Disconnected upper radiator brackets from radiator to allow for fan shroud installation: fan shroud uses the studs on the upper brackets, so I had to remove the nuts/washers, put the studs through the radiator flange & fan shroud, then replace the nuts/washers. I used nuts with captive conical washers rather than nylocs & flat washers because installing one tiny piece of hardware is easier tha installing two tiny pieces of hardware.

One at a time, disconnected each lower radiator bracket to allow installation of lower corner fan shroud fasteners, then replaced lower radiator brackets.

Tested fans. Holy moley do they pull a lot of air. With my hand in front of the rock screen I can feel them pulling through the condenser and radiator. (Good thing I installed that seal.) Behind the fans, the whole area simply gets bathed in a breeze. My ATF cooler will be very happy.

Attached a/c hoses to condenser. Lower fitting needed a new O-ring. Upper fitting surprisingly had an O-ring that looked quite fresh so I reused it. There's just enough room to get wrenches in there. The next time I start praise older cars for having more room to work in than newer cars, I might remember this. There was a trick to installing the lower hose: I disconnected it from the receiver/dryer, which allowed me to pull it forward to come at the fitting straight on. I'd rather do that than risk cross-threading it. Since I am replacing the receiver/dryer anyway, I didn't hesitate to do this.

Attached radiator duct. It fits!

59310

Obviously my work is not yet finished. The sway bar needs to go back on, and I have a/c work to do. I take my time with a/c work because I don't want to end up in a situation like I had with the previous owner's a/c work, which was all of the fittings torqued down so hard that taking it apart was impossible without causing damage: I ended up replacing the evaporator because trying to remove the hose tore one of the aluminum tubes open. My technique for a/c fittings is to tighten the fittings until I feel the O-ring starting to squish, then STOP and check for leaks. When I find a leak, I tighten the fitting JUST until the leak stops, and NO MORE. Yes, it takes longer, but I'd rather take longer than have stuck fittings.

For the moment I am very happy the way things have come together so far. The upper fasteners for the radiator duct are spinning in place, but for now I am willing to ignore them.

[Lwanmtr]

Alotta progress, looking good. Specially since you had quite a bit of PO damage to reverse..hehe.

[Farrar]

Not as much time in the garage today. Mostly I cleaned up from yesterday's marathon session. But thanks to a two-day soak in secret sauce, I did manage to remove the stuck-on bushings from the sway bar with two tugs of my vise-grips. Then I cleaned the rust off with sandpaper and a wire wheel, and wiped with a papertowel and some silicone spray, then chased the threads with the old nuts. I wanted to get the ends of the sway bar as clean as I can get them, to prepare for the new bushings.

Judging from the difference in size between the old bushings (which popped out of the LCAs with little effort) and the new bushings, I'm going to need a fair amount of lubricant to get the new ones to seat. I wonder if I should try to tap them in, or push them in steering-column-bushing style using the nuts and washers. I don't have anything of appropriate size to tap them in with and guarantee that they're straight, so I am inclined to try the nut-and-washer technique. Toby's kit does not provide new rear washers, but it does provide new rear nuts, so if I frig up one of the old nuts trying to push the bushings in I can toss it. I may be able to do this tomorrow depending on my work schedule. If not, it will have to wait until Saturday.

I am itching to get moving again with this car, but I don't want to hurry. The temptation is strong. :)

[Farrar]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eWYK8koQv0Y

[Josh]

A major milestone! right on.

Also, definitely replace the orifice tube. it is good practice to replace it (and the drier) whenever you repair any part of the AC system.

[Bitsyncmaster]

A major milestone! right on.

Also, definitely replace the orifice tube. it is good practice to replace it (and the drier) whenever you repair any part of the AC system.

+1
Yes always replace the accumulator (dryer). Most people think evacuation will pull moisture from the drier pellets, it does not. You need heat (about 250 deg. F) to release the moisture from the drier pellets. Now if your system is totally dry and sealed then a working drier is not needed.

[Farrar]

Also, definitely replace the orifice tube. it is good practice to replace it (and the drier) whenever you repair any part of the AC system.

I bought a pack of five orifice tubes from AutoZone. I figure I'll probably break the first one, or two, trying to install them -- so it's good to have spares. LOL

I want to replace the orifice tube anyway, because I currently have a variable orifice valve and ... well, I have not been impressed with it. And it makes a lot of noise when the system shuts off.

...

One hiccup with the new condenser. I disconnected the short hose from the evaporator side because it seemed I was unable to come at the condenser's bottom fitting straight on without a little extra slack. Now that I've connected the hose at the condenser, I have found that it's a little short to reach the evaporator. The new condenser is actually mounted closer to that side of the car than the old one was, but that hasn't done me any good: since the hose has to come *around* that edge of the radiator, it actually requires slightly more length not less. I might be able to get away with using the current hose if I removed the high pressure cutout switch and release valve, but I'd rather not do that.

So it looks like I may need a slightly-longer-than-stock evaporator-condenser hose. This is not the end of the world. A/C hoses aren't hard to make. Once you buy the tool to crimp the fittings on, it quickly pays for itself. #2613 currently has Hervey hoses on it, and rumor has it that Hervey's hoses aren't always necessarily the exact same length from batch to batch, since they're made by a human being and not a machine. In fact I've always had trouble with that short hose, always wanting just a little more slack than it gave me, even before I added the high pressure cutout switch and release valve. So I think I'm going to just make a new short hose. It will take a few days for the supplies to get here. More waiting! LOL But working on old cars is always an adventure in patience, right? :)

[Farrar]

Side note: removing rusted-on washers from a sway bar using a cold chisel and four-pound sledgehammer is a pretty good workout if you happen to be an out-of-shape middle-aged guy like I am. LOL

59320

59321

Trivia: those little grinding wheels for the Dremel tool are just the right size to clean up the inner surface of those sway bar washers. The rest I did with an emery cloth and wire wheel. Now the washers slide on and off with no effort at all. I'm glad I decided to do the sway bar bushings "as long as the front of the car is in the air..."

[Lwanmtr]

Probably gonna squeak less too. I know when I get to that point, I'm having all my bushings replaced along side the suspension udpate... Things Im not sure I'm able to do myself.

[Farrar]

For those wishing to work on their arm muscles without gym equipment, connect the sway bar to the LCAs, then lie down under the car and press the sway bar up into place one arm at a time. Repeat until tired. LOL

Although it's been said that you can replace the sway bar brackets with the car on jackstands, in my case it didn't line up until the suspension had a load on it. But before I did that, I cleaned up the holes in the LCAs and lubed the heck out of them with silicone paste. The front bushings went in with some gentle shoving, and I was able to pop the rear bushings in with both thumbs. Then I installed the washers and the old large nuts to draw the sway bar back into place. Easy!

Simultaneously I'm working on the a/c. All of the fittings came apart nicely, even though they were untouched for a few years. Silicone paste (see a pattern developing here? LOL) is my weapon of choice to stop those fittings from corroding together. The new evaporators from DMC do have zinc plating on their fittings, but it's pretty thin and in my case the threads on the receiver/dryer fitting ate right through the zinc on the evaporator, causing the steel fitting to start rusting. The receiver/dryer was heavier than I anticipated. I think there's a lot of moisture and oil in there.

In the meantime, the orifice tube was gunked up and broken. The screen came out with the bent pipe. I got the brass piece and spring out, so now what's left is just the plastic piece, and it's *WAY* up in there. Ordinary orifice tools won't touch it. I *THINK* the last time I had to deal with a broken orifice tube I found a long wood screw and basically used it like a corkscrew to bite into the plastic and pull it out. This was probably a decade ago and it was someone else's car so my memory is fuzzy. (The evaporator on #2613 went in fresh and I installed the variable orifice tube at that time. This time I'm going with the standard orifice -- eventually.)

[Bitsyncmaster]

I had a broken orifice and got it out by pressurizing at the compressor. You have to plug the hose from the condenser. About 100 PSI blew it out. As long as your orifice still has the limiting air flow that should work. Mine was a plugged VOV so it was easy to get 100 PSI.

[Farrar]

And now we know why the high pressure release valve blew when I was driving in Miami.

59322

I noticed that I was losing refrigerant very slowly. The leak must have been on the suction side. The little pipe came off very easily: when I put the wrench on its fitting to the evaporator I found that it was already loose enough to turn with my fingers. That's when I saw this. Looks like a bunch of dirt and sand clogging up the filter screen. At least it did its job: I haven't found dirt anywhere else in the system, just oil.

[DMC5180]

Farrar,

I noticed you put the HP cut-out switch hub at the outlet of the condenser. Did your car have the HP switch in that location from the factory or was it at the other end of the hose by the Accumulator?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Farrar]

Did your car have the HP switch in that location from the factory or was it at the other end of the hose by the Accumulator?

Neither. My car had the early setup with no high pressure switch or release valve. A high pressure hose blew several years ago so I decided to add a release valve and switch.

...

On another note, a 1/4" x 6" lag screw is the perfect broken orifice tube extractor tool:

59327

That was easy! Now, back to work I go! :thumbup:

[DMC5180]

Neither. My car had the early setup with no high pressure switch or release valve.

I wonder if your car has the extra 2 way connector with jumper loop just inside the car where the wires for the LP switch go through the front bulkhead?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Farrar]

I wonder if your car has the extra 2 way connector with jumper loop just inside the car where the wires for the LP switch go through the front bulkhead?

It does. I plan to make a harness for the high pressure switch and run it to that connection. Since the connector is there I'll just cut it and splice leads to it. Probably the easiest electrical work to do on a DeLorean. LOL

[Farrar]

Did I mention the amazing difference in size between the old rubber sway bar-LCA bushings and the new polyurethane ones? No wonder I had so little trouble popping the old ones out...

59328

[DMC5180]

It does. I plan to make a harness for the high pressure switch and run it to that connection. Since the connector is there I'll just cut it and splice leads to it. Probably the easiest electrical work to do on a DeLorean. LOL

Cool,

Fwiw, DMCH has the factory harness extension just for that purpose. I installed one on my car when I updated to DPI hoses a few years ago.

It’s cheap enough that it’s worth getting the ready to go setup.

https://store.delorean.com/p-7726-harness-wiring-hi-press-sw.aspx

It comes with the inside connector housing unpinned so the wire can be fed though the bulkhead. There is a trick to fishing the wires through. You tape them too the existing wires coming through for the LP switch as close to the bulkhead as possible on the front side. Then with the LP switch connector unplugged you pull that wire back into the cabin till the new wires can be untaped. Pin the connector housing and plug it into the existing connector. Then pull the LP switch harness back down to reconnect it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Farrar]

DMCH has the factory harness extension just for that purpose. ... It’s cheap enough that it’s worth getting the ready to go setup.

I know, but I already have the parts I need to make one, and it's more fun for me that way. Call me crazy, but I enjoy electrical work, especially making pretty wiring harnesses! I had fun making a new one for the Otterstat, and I had fun re-wrapping the auto transmission harness, too. I'm thinking of doing new harnesses for the rest of the engine compartment just to dress it up a bit. :D

[Farrar]

What with all of the a/c excitement, I forgot to take and post photos of the new sway bar brackets & polyurethane bushings from DPNW. It's a nice kit, but the brackets are quirky. The trick I used to get the brackets to line up was to use a nail set (any tapered rod would do as long as it's small enough) to put in the rear bracket holes and *PULL* the brackets into alignment with one hand, while using the other hand to tighten the front bolt enough to where the bracket wouldn't move anymore under pressure from the sway bar. The brackets themselves don't have quite enough clearance for the stock bolts unless you want to tap them in with a hammer -- or remove a small amount of material from inside the slots, but then you lose the zinc plating, so fair warning.

Enough talk. Picture time.

59329

59330

59331

...

In the meantime, some a/c progress:

59332

New orifice tube installed. New O-rings everywhere. I even managed to re-use the short hose by simply pointing it up slightly at the condenser fitting, so I don't have to make my own short hose like I thought I would. Tomorrow I will snug the fittings down and check for leaks. Once the system is leak-free, I can put the car back on the ground and work on the cooling system and air conditioning simultaneously. And with the new bushings installed on the sway bar, I can't wait to see how the front end behaves! (Although the rotors are warped -- I have a mental shopping list and new brake discs are on it. One thing at a time ...)

[DMC5180]

Are you installing a new compressor or is it the new one from a couple years ago? All that crud on the Orifice tube screen came from somewhere.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Farrar]

Are you installing a new compressor or is it the new one from a couple years ago?

Brand new! I don't trust the old one. Besides, the old one was an R-12 compressor with R-134a in it. This new one is made for R-134a.

[Farrar]

Farrar's Extremely Paranoid Method for Fastening A/C Fittings:

(1) Lubricate with a/c oil the part that the O-ring fits onto.
(2) Install the O-ring.
(3) Lubricate the O-ring with a/c oil.
(4) Lubricate the fitting threads with silicone paste.
(5) Connect fittings with just your fingers, stopping when you feel the O-ring seal.
(6) Pressurize the system with a few PSI of air.
(7) Using wrenches, tighten the fittings until air is no longer leaking.
(8) Vacuum the system.

If it doesn't hold vacuum, repeat steps 6 and 7 using soapy water to look for air bubbles at the fittings. Tighten suspected leaky fittings a quarter-turn, then proceed again to step 8.

[Ron]

Farrar's Extremely Paranoid Method for Fastening A/C Fittings:

(1) Lubricate with a/c oil the part that the O-ring fits onto.
(2) Install the O-ring.
(3) Lubricate the O-ring with a/c oil.
(4) Lubricate the fitting threads with silicone paste.
(5) Connect fittings with just your fingers, stopping when you feel the O-ring seal.
(6) Pressurize the system with a few PSI of air.
(7) Using wrenches, tighten the fittings until air is no longer leaking.
(8) Vacuum the system.

If it doesn't hold vacuum, repeat steps 6 and 7 using soapy water to look for air bubbles at the fittings. Tighten suspected leaky fittings a quarter-turn, then proceed again to step 8.

$.02

If you pre-fit the fittings then thoroughly clean and lubricate them (with A/C oil), you would not need silicone paste.
Fully tighten the o-ring fittings before applying any air pressure. Otherwise, the seal may be pushed into a shape/position that prevents proper o-ring compression/sealing!

[FABombjoy]

Or Nylog RT201B. It's an HFC-compatible O ring lubricant, thread sealer, floor wax, and dessert topping. I even plugged a few boost leaks with it :D

[Farrar]

It's leak chasing time for #2613's a/c. This is par for the course whenever I work on this car. It's one of the reasons I lubricate the threads of all of the fittings. One of the other reasons is that the fittings on the condenser from Houston, ostensibly zinc plated, have rusted considerably in just a few years of use.

It's a pretty big leak (under pressure, loses 1 PSI per minute -- under vacuum, won't move beyond -2 in. Hg.) so it should be easy to find. I just hope it's not the upper condenser fitting... So naturally it will be the upper condenser fitting. :)

Typically a large leak like this means an O-ring has failed. Likely I used the wrong one somewhere and it has squished out and split, despite my paranoia about not tightening fittings too much. I have a whole bag of a/c O-rings. I wonder what the chances are that none of them will fit and I will have to go buy more. LOL

For those of you just joining us: every single component in this car's a/c system has been replaced within the last five years. The brand new parts just installed are the compressor, condenser, receiver/dryer, and orifice tube. The five-year-old parts are the evaporator and all of the hoses. Stay tuned.

[DMC5180]

3 hoses in system = 6 o-ring joints
Plus 1 for the HP hub adapter.

Each pressure switch has 1 o-ring

shrader valve cores in the Compressor couplers can leak.

1 O-ring at Accumulator to Evaporator joint.

Break out the soapy water in a spray bottle. [emoji6]

Fwiw, I once had a bad LP switch that leaked internally.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Farrar]

You and I are on the sane page, Dennis. :)

I count 8 O-rings in the system:
- hoses at the compressor (2)
- hoses at condenser (2)
- evaporator to orifice tube bent pipe (1)
- evaporator to receiver/dryer (1)
- orifice tube bent pipe to hose (1)
- receiver/dryer to hose (1)

[Edit: High pressure switch is integrated into the "hub" I bought so it has no O-ring. Low pressure switch is just plastic so it seats without an O-ring.]

The low pressure switch looks original (although it bears a GM part number ... ?), so it is suspect. A replacement has already been ordered. I will remove the low pressure switch for soap bubble testing.

Did I mention I got all excited yesterday and put the car back on the ground? That was premature. LOL

One mistake I made: the new condenser is slightly shorter than the radiator. Because of the way I mounted it, the fittings stick out less than stock. I thought it was a good idea for clearing the radiator duct. Turns out it doesn't matter - there's plenty of duct clearance already. But what it did was leave just enough room for me to get my line wrench on that 7/8" fitting at the top and give it a tiny fraction of a turn at a time. It took a long time to tighten that top fitting! I've dealt with worse on modern cars, but still, it's embarrassing to think that it didn't occur to me before I put everything together. If it turns out that's the fitting that's leaking, I might just move the condenser over an inch. It would leave a strange-looking gap on the other side of the radiator, but it would make future servicing of those fittings much easier. Don't do what I did, kids... when doing custom work, always bear in mind future serviceability!

[Farrar]

Follow up to the previous post: I could actually get my 7/8" wrench over the top condenser fitting by removing the radiator duct and coming around from the front.

... Moving on ...

Yesterday I did a soap bubble test and saw no bubbles. Then I tried pulling a vacuum and it wouldn't hold vacuum. The only places I hadn't checked yet for leaks were the service ports themselves. The low pressure service port was connected to the vacuum pump, so I checked the high pressure service port. Instead of the cap coming off, the R-12 adapter came off.

(#2613 has hoses from 2011, but even though they are "R-134a hoses," the service ports are merely R-12 ports with the Schrader valves removed and brass adapters screwed on with what looks like red Locktite. Apparently red Locktite doesn't last forever in the presence of refrigerant oil.)

I would like to have this car back on the road before Monday, so for now I have installed a Schrader valve into the old R-12 discharge service port and checked that it didn't leak. Then I capped it.

The high pressure service port adapter must have been the source of the a/c leak, because now I'm able to pull -31 in. Hg. on the system and keep it there.

Stay tuned.

[Farrar]

New low pressure switch arrived. It looks exactly the same as the old switch but it's supposed to be for R-134a instead of R-12. Not sure what that means exactly -- maybe they have different cut-off pressures. Anyway, it's installed.

[Andrew]

New low pressure switch arrived. It looks exactly the same as the old switch but it's supposed to be for R-134a instead of R-12. Not sure what that means exactly -- maybe they have different cut-off pressures. Anyway, it's installed.

You're correct regarding the cut-off pressure. A R134a calibrated switch will cut-out a couple PSI lower than R12. Due to the properties of the different refrigerants, R134a runs higher on the high side and lower on the low side than R12. IIRC the stock R12 cutout pressure is around 24.5 PSI and the R134a cutout pressure is around 18-20. The stock low pressure switch is adjustable via the blade screw under the plug..1/8 turn CCW should reduce the cut-out pressure by 2 pounds. Absent a recalibration of the low pressure switch, the A/C will rapid cycle more than it should and will not deliver optimal cooling temps. This is probably part of the reason why R134a retrofits have gotten bad press over the years.

[Farrar]

Interesting info! Thanks, Andrew!

The new evaporator I got from DMC a few years ago is, I am guessing, a replica of the original R-12 evaporator. With that exception, everything in #2613's air conditioning system is of the age of R-134a. With luck it will help keep me cool here in south Florida, where I use the air conditioning year-round. Fingers crossed...

[Farrar]

It's 85 outside right now so I guessed the garage was about 80. I re-charged the a/c today and expected to stop filling with R-134a when it reached 40-45 PSI. But it essentially plateaued at 38-39 PSI. Nonetheless, the compressor was not cycling at that time and the vent air was nice and cold, so I'm willing to call that job done. In total I got two full cans and a tiny bit of a third can in the system.

I filled the cooling system with just water for the purpose of burping it. Once I was all done, sitting in the garage with the a/c running the temperature held underneath 220. (And since the fans were running from the start, it took a *LONG* time to get that hot.) Some water spat out the overflow tube but eventually that stopped and the temperature still held. Now that I am sure there are no air bubbles in the system, I'll swap out about a gallon and a half of water for a gallon and a half of green coolant. (I can't recall what the total system capacity is right now, but I think it might be three gallons. If anyone knows this info, please chime in.)

Oh, and before I did all of this I used some high-temperature-safe black rubber trim to cover the mounting flanges of the universal condenser. Since it's "universal" the mounting flanges have holes every inch or so. I didn't like seeing that through the rock screen. As an added bonus, the rubber trim stops the metal edge from rubbing against the radiator duct.

I'm gonna put air in the tires, take a shower, eat some lunch, and go for a quick drive. It's about time I tested out those new polyurethane sway bar and LCA bushings. :)

[Farrar]

Just got back from a test drive. Mostly stop-and-go traffic. Engine stayed 205°F or below. A/C blew nice and cold.

Got home and saw my horns sitting on the workbench. Oops. LOL

Anyway, it was a nice drive. :)

[Lwanmtr]

Shame on you going out without your horns...what will all the other vikings say?

[Farrar]

Wait for it...

(Bloopers included.)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RW51cy5mF2U

[Drive Stainless]

Wait for it...

(Bloopers included.)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RW51cy5mF2U

I don’t think it’s rust. I think it’s solidified Dexcool you’re flushing out. Search “dexcool sludge” and see if it matches what you’re seeing.

It will all flush out, eventually. 2oz of Cascade helps. :)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Farrar]

Search “dexcool sludge” and see if it matches what you’re seeing.

I'd never heard of that ... but it certainly fits the symptoms. I wonder if the previous ooperator of the 3.0L used Dex-Cool...

I used an entire bottle of liquid Cascade detergent before the radiator swap, and it got rid of quite a lot of sludge. But obviously there is more entering in the system. Perhaps someone ran Dexcool in the 3.0L engine before I got it, and it is all breaking slowly free.

If I'm not using my drain valve, it's very difficult to catch what comes out of the system, so backflushing (garden hose connected to the lower radiator hose) generally just involves me removing the thermostat and the block drains, then turning on my garden hose and flushing from the bottom of the radiator and all of the brown gunk just runs down the driveway. I'd like some better way of backflushing. Maybe I will re-route the rear auto-bleeder to a 5-gallon bucket and plug off the return barb on the expansion temporarily.

Someone on another forum suggested running the engine while flushing with a constant supply of fresh water. That may have something to do with the fact that the sludge seems to break away when the engine is hot. I wonder if I could manage to somehow flush the engine while running it. I'm going to have to get inventive...

Thanks for the tip, Matt!

[Farrar]

Of course the question has been asked, "If your coolant is working, why worry about the brown stuff?"

The answer is that the brown stuff will eventually form clogs. I have a nice new radiator and I don't want to kill it.

[Farrar]

And sure enough, after a longer drive today, the coolant I drained was even more brown than yesterday.

Side note: My daily driver also has orange coolant, but it's not Dex-Cool. I bought the car used. At one point the thermostat failed closed. Most thermostats are designed so that they fail open. Turns out the cooling system was clogged with brown gunk. When the engine got too hot I took the car to a shop and they told me about the gunk. They flushed the system, replaced the thermostat, and I have not had a problem since. Now I am wondering if the previous owner used the wrong coolant...

[dn010]

When I first did my engine swap and was trying to get it running on EDIS, I filled the system with straight water and left it that way for months. I ended up with rust particles. So I pulled the upper radiator hose connection and ran a garden hose into the expansion tank. I let the engine idle with the garden hose on and it flushed a good amount of crap out. I suppose if you wanted to flush the radiator as well you could pull the lower hose but you'll have some of the expansion tank water running out. I had a new radiator and did not want all that crap to go in it. I did run Dex Cool for years in the PRV but went to Zerex green. Thankfully I never had sludge issues.

[Farrar]

According to a few articles and videos I've found on the subject of Dex-Cool sludge, the problem is that the sludge forms when air is introduced to the coolant. So if there was a coolant leak that allowed air to enter the system, it was possible for the sludge to form.

The last time I drove the car the coolant temperature held steady at about 200. It looks like the more gunk I get rid of, the cooler the system runs. I will just try to keep it as clean as possible -- keep the drives under an hour and flush after every drive.

[Farrar]

I started to drain some coolant after today's short drive, and it looked perfectly fine ... so I stopped draining and left it alone.

Two possibilities:

(1) I got what was left of the brown powdery stuff
(2) The engine needs to get hot to dislodge the brown powdery stuff

I have an appointment in Miami tomorrow. It's 60 miles round trip, mostly highway driving. I think I may be bold enough to take this car to that appointment... But I may bring some supplies with me.

[Farrar]

I drove 60+ miles today and waited until the engine was nice and cool before popping the cap to see what color the coolant is.

It's green! :)

[AugustneverEnds]

Bravo!!!

Nice to hear your persistence has paid off

[Farrar]

Thanks, Nick!

I guess I should also say that my experience with this should be a cautionary tale: anyone doing an engine swap needs to inspect the donor engine to see if there is any brown Dex-Cool sludge in it. If you're going to have to flush sludge out, you might as well flush it out before the engine is installed and connected to the rest of the system, where it can clog the radiator and heater core.

[DMC5180]

According to a few articles and videos I've found on the subject of Dex-Cool sludge, the problem is that the sludge forms when air is introduced to the coolant. So if there was a coolant leak that allowed air to enter the system, it was possible for the sludge to form

Yes, the brown mud tends to form in high points and air traps within the cool system where the cool doesn’t flow. My daughter had a 2000 Grand Prix with 3600 V6. I had too pull the Intake manifold on it and replace the composite intake gaskets. There was was passage in each head that was blocked off from coolant flow by the gasket. When I Removed the gasket the cavity was full of mud. The rest of the coolant passages with flow were bright and clean aluminum with no signs of mud at all.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Farrar]

I've driven over 150 miles this week. As I found myself at Costco for the second time since Sunday, this little idea popped into my head. Enjoy.

59397

[Lwanmtr]

Hehe funny

[Farrar]

I drove the car a dozen times this week without problems. Fortunately, the end of the cooling system debacle means that I can get back to work on this "rolling resto-mod." Now I can stop worrying about that and get to work on some of the other things that need attention. As followers of this thread may already be aware, I was doing some modifications to improve the interior lighting and some other electrical work. And since I'm not spending my money on cooling system and a/c parts I can finally get around to replacing the automatic transmission controller. Time to move on. ... or should I say "Time to drive on"? :)

[DMC5180]

Great work on the HP/LP harness wiring. [emoji122][emoji122][emoji122][emoji122][emoji482]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Farrar]

Great work on the HP/LP harness wiring. [emoji122][emoji122][emoji122][emoji122][emoji482]


Thanks, Dennis! For the first few years of ownership I had no garage and limited tools, and things started going south on the car a lot faster than I'd planned, so I had to "make do" a lot. But now I have a garage and a work bench and so many other luxuries I didn't have back then, so working on the car is a lot more fun because I can do things the right way at last! :)

[Farrar]

Just a quick note to say that I have driven the car regularly since the radiator swap and have had no cooling problems. The coolant still looks good and I haven't touched it in weeks.

[Josh]

Just a quick note to say that I have driven the car regularly since the radiator swap and have had no cooling problems. The coolant still looks good and I haven't touched it in weeks.

Hooray! How is the A/C?

[Farrar]

Hooray! How is the A/C?

Works great so far! When I was charging it I got to the end of a can when it was technically about 5 PSI undercharged. (80 degrees ambient, 40 PSI on the low pressure gauge) We haven't had too many days over 90 degrees here lately so I haven't had a chance to see how it performs on really hot days, but with temperatures in the 70s and 80s it blows cold enough for me to turn it down to "NORM" and lower the fan speed after just a few minutes. When it gets really hot outside I might see if I can add those last few PSI to the system.