RF Communications for group rides

[nkemp]

This post tries to summarize the options and define a good alternative for group ride RF Communications. Since this is a topic without a common knowledge base, I'll try to create a RF communication baseline (and thus created a long post). I'll also try to be US laws legal and accurate but I am subject to being wrong without notice.

When two or more cars are out for a group ride, it is handy to have 2-way RF (radio) communications between the cars. It makes things like navigation, gas stops, lunch breaks and car troubles a lot easier to communicate.

The best communication alternatives provide clear communications within a reasonable distance (a few miles for our needs). This is a function of the quality of the equipment, frequency used, output power and antenna. More power is not necessarily better since less power into a better antenna can produce a more usable signal compared to more power into a poor antenna. The stubby antennas found on handheld transceivers are not good antennas. An externally mounted properly tuned antenna will provide significant improvement.

External antenna is an important part of this discussion since radio use with antenna in the car looses range due to the car's metal exterior. As such, an external antenna is a good improvement and an important factor because it gets and receives signals better. If you run without an external antenna you will have more difficulty getting a good signal as range increases or conditions worsen.

More range also improves safety since it allows the cars to spread out more reducing the opportunity for a multi-car accident (caused by someone is filming the parade of DeLoreans)

There are a variety of usable RF operating bands:
Band License Detachable antenna
Ham Yes Yes
MURS No Yes
CB No Yes
FRS No No
GMRS Yes Yes

Amateur Radio (Ham)

In terms of usability, this is the best option. Range, equipment quality, and usability for our application is right on target. The trouble here is that every operator must be licensed and the licensing process is a test. The good news is that the test question pool is published and if you study the pool, you can simply learn the correct answers. No Morse is required. It's easy to get a ham license.

Since many users are not ham licensed, this is not really an option

MURS

MURS (Multi-Use Radio Service ) is an unlicensed two-way radio with a power limit of 2 watts and allows detachable antennas. In terms of our application for use between cars, this may be the best technical solution. Good equipment quality can be had, 2 watts is a good power level, the frequencies allocated operate nicely for our use, privacy codes are allowed and you can buy or make external antennas.

The downside of this band is that it is not as common as FRS/GMRS and the probability that manu already own FRS/GMRS equipment.

CB

CB (Citizen Band) is still alive and has always be questionable relative to if it is "well". If CB wasn't such a circus, this could be a usable alternative.

FRS

FRS (Family Radio Service) are those little walkie-talkie type radios available everywhere. Initially the units were FRS only but now FRS only units are getting harder to find new. FCC requirements limit them to .5 Watts and the unit and antenna cannot be detachable or modified. With regard to range indicated about the unit ... they are more suspect than the claims of the supplements found in your spam folder. One half to one mile are better expectations. You may get better in certain situations but don't count on it.

GMRS

GMRS (General Mobile Radio Service) units are the upscale versions of the FRS radios and require a license to operate legally. Handheld units can put out up to 5 watts and can have a detachable antenna. GMRS only units can be had but are not as popular as the dual FRS/GMRS units. Within this product offering, quality costs. Quality covers ruggedness, water resistance and signal quality.

FRS & GMRS Channels
- Channels 1 through 7 are dual FRS & GMRS. I believe these are limited to .5 watts regardless of the radio
- Channels 8 through 14 are FRS only and are limited to .5 watts
- Channels 15 through 22 are GMRS only and can have higher output levels depending on the unit

FRS/GMRS Combo Radios

Most bubble pack units found at stores are dual FRS/GMRS units. They range in price from incredible cheap and up. The cheap ones may not give you the communication quality you expect, especially as they get farther apart and with more obstructions. Again, the advertised range is a joke. You might get that range from one crater edge to another crater edge on the far side of the moon where there is no radio interference. For our use, assume that it is a couple miles and maybe more if conditions and terrain are right. It may be less as well. FRS/GMRS frequencies operate in a range where they require line of sight between units. Hills, bridges, buildings and trees all affect range.

Since the "rubber ducky" antenna is so poor, range and communication quality is further limited.

Note that dual FRS and GMRS units cannot have a detachable antenna and requires a license:
- There is one discussion that a license is not required if the GMRS only channels (15-22) are not used.
- There is another discussion that the FCC requires a license for FRS/GMRS units since any channel may be used by the operator.
- There is a third discussion that everyone ignores the FCC GMRS licensing requirements but that is a discussion beyond the scope of this post.

A GMRS license covers your extended family, is good for five years and there is no test for the license. Don't be surprised if the FCC changes or does away with GMRS licensing fees or requirements.

Privacy codes

Use of privacy codes do not make your radio communications private. When you set a privacy code, the radio only allows communications with the same code to come through to your unit's speaker and blocks all others. So if everyone is on privacy code 21, any messages with privacy codes other than 21 are blocked. If there is some stranger within your range who has set their privacy code to 21, they will be able to hear your messages as well as communicate to you. Privacy codes eliminate chatter and are very useful but they are not private.

Poking the FCC bear

You can hack/modify (not legally) the FRS and FRS/GMRS radios so that they have an antenna connector and thus you could wire up an external antenna. There are some tutorials online that instruct in the process. Doing so voids the radio's FCC certification and as such the radio is now illegal to use.

You can also operate without a GMRS license (not legally). Generally, the FCC is not patrolling looking for GMRS offenders. The trouble comes from GMRS licensed users that patrol the airwaves and report offenders.

I'm not making any suggestions one way or another. You have to make your own decisions. BTW ... FCC fines can be hefty.

If you want to read the FCC rules (boring) it can be found here: https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-2009-title47-vol5/pdf/CFR-2009-title47-vol5-part95.pdf

Proposal

I propose that the most universal and likely compatible option is GMRS (channels 15 - 22). It is not the best technical option but it most likely will cover what equipment people will bring to the event. There is still the option that some will have FRS only radios (I have four on the desk as I write this) but most units today are dual FRS/GMRS so most can use the GMRS only channels (15-22).

For those willing to put in the effort, a GMRS only radio with a detachable antenna will give improved performance at both ends. Attaching an external antenna will improve performance making it quite usable as groups of cars travel together. If purchasing an antenna, remember that magnetic mounts do not work on stainless steel or fiberglass. Also, the antenna needs a metal ground-plane or counterpoise to operate effectively.

For those willing to spend a few more dollars than for the bubble packs, they can get a better quality radio. Another option is to find Type 95 Certified professional equipment that can be programmed for GMRS frequencies and privacy codes. These radios will be much better built.

If we all agree that GMRS is the band of choice, when we are together we will likely be able to keep in touch via radio. Imagine driving down the road when another DeLorean appears. A quick click of the radio (assuming a standard DeLorean channel and privacy code ... Channel 20 and privacy code 15? (BTTF reference to 2015)) can start the conversation.

[nkemp]

UPDATE:
- Privacy codes may not work amongst differing radio brands. When this happens, code 0 may work.
- FRS/GMRS channels 1 - 7 may allow using high power transmission and require a GMRS license to do so.

[SS Spoiler]

Neat idea Nick, how about some photos of different radio
options in store packaging?


Paul Cerny #2691
Kalispell, MT

[DMCVegas]

Most caravans use FRS, with of course, Channel 12. Pretty much it's been the standard for years.

CB is also still great and quite viable for trail riding or hiking if you need to radio back to the ranger station or to someone else for help. Someone from Europe once had a beautiful bracket they created which used the center bolt of the Rear Screen Upper Finisher. Very nice design. Minimalistic look, and never interfered with the operation of the louvers. As opposed to the spare louvers I got at the junk yard which someone drilled a hole through, and then glued aluminum foil to the underside to try and create a ground plane...

GMRS sounds nice and all, but I don't know that everyone is going to take the time to obtain a license and whatnot. The patrols do appear to be real though. I used to hear allot of chatter over the radio in Vegas about them. Two white Ford Econoline vans traveling in pairs were change trucks for the slot routes. Single vans were patrols believed to be from the FCC or someone else, and always seemed to triangulate the radio shacks of broadcasters. Strange stuff... But that's a whole other story.

[nkemp]

... how about some photos of different radio
options in store packaging?

Google for "FRS/GMRS radio" and you'll get LOTS of photos in the image search or search Amazon.

Here is a link to Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Midland-GXT1000VP4-36-Mile-50-Channel-Two-Way/dp/B001WMFYH4/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1470316995&sr=8-1&keywords=gmrs

And here are some in their retail bubble packs.

45122

[nkemp]

Most caravans use FRS, with of course, Channel 12. Pretty much it's been the standard for years.

We used FRS on the way to DCS16. The downside of FRS is the low wattage output and lack of external antenna results in short range. If you have more than a few cars they need to stay tight so that the front car can communicate to the rear car. Radio Shack's 21-1850 was a good solution to getting the FRS antenna to the outside of the vehicle but they are no longer available new. 5 Watt GMRS improves the range especially with an external antenna.

The Boy Scouts have a rule against caravanning to events to prevent an accident taking out more than one vehicle at a time. A good idea worth considering.


CB is also still great and quite viable for trail riding or hiking if you need to radio back to the ranger station or to someone else for help. Someone from Europe once had a beautiful bracket they created which used the center bolt of the Rear Screen Upper Finisher. Very nice design. Minimalistic look, and never interfered with the operation of the louvers. As opposed to the spare louvers I got at the junk yard which someone drilled a hole through, and then glued aluminum foil to the underside to try and create a ground plane...

If you have the louver brace, it provides another place to mount the antenna and provides two ground radials. Will take a few bends on a bracket to get the antenna to the outside of the lover though. A 1/4 wave GMRS antenna is about 6" for the antenna and radials (of course a 1/2 wave is 12").


GMRS sounds nice and all, but I don't know that everyone is going to take the time to obtain a license and whatnot. The patrols do appear to be real though. I used to hear allot of chatter over the radio in Vegas about them. Two white Ford Econoline vans traveling in pairs were change trucks for the slot routes. Single vans were patrols believed to be from the FCC or someone else, and always seemed to triangulate the radio shacks of broadcasters. Strange stuff... But that's a whole other story.

The FCC recently reduced the fee by $25 and wants to eliminate the fee but GMRS licensed users are opposing the move. Go figure. I did read that the FCC does chase down truckers in violation of GMRS rules and has always done so for pirate ham radio. I agree that most will not get a GMRS license but the effort to get one is really easy. The only test is if your payment bounces. The irritation is that the license fee is more than a pair of radios. The upside is it only takes one license to cover your whole extended family. I suspect the FCC would not agree that the DeLorean community is a "family".

[David T]

Google for "FRS/GMRS radio" and you'll get LOTS of photos in the image search or search Amazon.

Here is a link to Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Midland-GXT1000VP4-36-Mile-50-Channel-Two-Way/dp/B001WMFYH4/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1470316995&sr=8-1&keywords=gmrs

And here are some in their retail bubble packs.

45122

The DMA has been using FBS radios for a long time. It is cheap and you can get them anywhere. Although they have limited range we overcome that by relaying messages back and forth among the caravan. The leaders and followers, to back up communications, also use cell phones. The privacy codes usually won't work among different brands so they have to be set to 0. Of course we use channel 12. The better, more expensive the FBS radio, the better the range, the clarity, and the battery life. CB is pretty much left to only the truckers here in the northeast. All of the other alternatives are more expensive and/or you need licensees and are not readily obtainable. Some have special rechargeable batteries. Most FRS radios use readily available AA or AAA batteries. Some bring extra radios to lend to others in the caravan who either don't have one or forgot to bring one (or their batteries went dead).

[DMCVegas]

The FCC recently reduced the fee by $25 and wants to eliminate the fee but GMRS licensed users are opposing the move. Go figure. I did read that the FCC does chase down truckers in violation of GMRS rules and has always done so for pirate ham radio. I agree that most will not get a GMRS license but the effort to get one is really easy. The only test is if your payment bounces. The irritation is that the license fee is more than a pair of radios. The upside is it only takes one license to cover your whole extended family. I suspect the FCC would not agree that the DeLorean community is a "family".

No, I don't suspect the FCC would allow clubs as all to operate under a single license since they did make it clear that an individual cannot allow employees to utilize one. So they've already got that scenario covered, and I'm sure it applies to organizations as well. However since it is just a fee rather than a test akin to a Radio Amateur license, that does favor things greatly.

Since DeLorean people are very keen on relevant numbers, I'd probably vote for channel 18 since it's "81" backwards if we have a problem with privacy codes.

I'm all for getting out and driving a car. There is no better way to build confidence, and it's just plain fun. Perhaps this is something we start introducing the community to by way of the clubs for both driving tours & caravans, as well as individual driving trips. I'll bring this up at the next DOA meeting as a future consideration.

[nkemp]

Since channels 1-7 are FRS & GMRS and given that the GMRS units can broadcast at higher wattage in the 1-7 channel range, using channels 1-7 may make more sense since it incorporates more units. GMRS is preferred. FRS units would operate at .5W license free and the GMRS handhelds can operate up to 5W (depending on unit).

Feedback I got in a FRS/GMRS specific forum indicates a couple mile range, using 4 Watt commercial quality handheld GMRS, in a vehicle, in the Adirondacks. Using an external antenna should extend the range and/or improve the quality. FRS would likely be in the .5 mile range give or take.

Channels 1-7 may be more congested but that is more likely to occur at a theme park or mall than on a highway.

You don't want to be the last car in the caravan running FRS when you have car trouble. By the time you push the radio's PTT button you'll be out of range.

[Chris4099]

The PNDC group here uses CB. However, the MINI Cooper club I'm with uses FRS, so I'm stuck with two different radios. Since I don't do lots of long caravanning with other D's, I just got a cheap handheld CB for occasional use. Does the job just fine since I'm not long distance from the other Ds.

As for the MINI group, since we go on long drives through twisty back roads, a good radio is critical. This is the most commonly used:
45126
http://www.westcoastmall.net/midland-75-510xlm-speak-easym-mobile-frs-radio-with-vehicle-antenna-p-1390.html

As you can see, this has an external antenna with a magnetic base. We can easily get a mile of range in difficult conditions (no line of site with many trees/rocks in between). Now it obviously won't stick to the D's exterior, so I used the luggage rack hinge instead one time. If you don't have that, you'll have to come up with something else (maybe a strong magnet under the louver).

I also recommend getting a headset if you plan to talk a lot. It's a lot easier to simply press a small button clipped to you then to grab and hold a radio to your mouth. Makes it easier to understand the other person as well. Just make sure to disable VOX! That's the work of the Devil right there! :)

[David T]

No, I don't suspect the FCC would allow clubs as all to operate under a single license since they did make it clear that an individual cannot allow employees to utilize one. So they've already got that scenario covered, and I'm sure it applies to organizations as well. However since it is just a fee rather than a test akin to a Radio Amateur license, that does favor things greatly.

Since DeLorean people are very keen on relevant numbers, I'd probably vote for channel 18 since it's "81" backwards if we have a problem with privacy codes.

I'm all for getting out and driving a car. There is no better way to build confidence, and it's just plain fun. Perhaps this is something we start introducing the community to by way of the clubs for both driving tours & caravans, as well as individual driving trips. I'll bring this up at the next DOA meeting as a future consideration.



Seems to be becoming more and more popular, driving tours. Many of the shows billing themselves as "Concours" include a driving tour as part of the show to expand the presence of the show into the community. Also gives the car owners the chance to show off their cars moving and the show makes more money by running a meal along with the tour. The DMA is getting ready for their "Summer Fun Run" for anyone interested. Always some great scenery. Don't forget your radio! BTW, when we do the parade on LBI the radios come in very handy so everyone knows what to do and when.

[nkemp]

45126
http://www.westcoastmall.net/midland-75-510xlm-speak-easym-mobile-frs-radio-with-vehicle-antenna-p-1390.html

As you can see, this has an external antenna:)

Very interesting. If you want a FRS only unit with an external antenna, get these while you can! Per the FCC guidelines, this radio should not exist since it has an external and removable antenna. Per the FCC 95 rules:
"95.647 FRS unit and R/C transmitter antennas.

The antenna of each FRS unit, and the antenna of each R/C station transmitting in the 72–76 MHz band, must be an integral part of the transmitter. The antenna must have no gain (as compared to a half-wave dipole) and must be vertically polarized."

That is why no other FRS unit has a detachable antenna.

Regardless, they do seem to exist. When you can, check inside the battery compartment and see if it is type 95 certified. If so, there should be a FCC number that was assigned the model.

[Chris4099]

Yes, I think I read somewhere (been a long time) that Midland made these in violation of FCC or somehow the FCC let them slip through. But once discovered, Midland was allowed to sell their remaining inventory after stopping production. This one particular reseller seemed to be able to buy that inventory and is the only one selling them that I've found. They've been selling this model for about 10 years now so they must have had a large stock.

By chance I was driving my MINI to work today and was able to quickly get a pic of the back. Sure enough, FCC number!
45128

Sadly I think mine is dying after 10 years of service. Transmitter isn't working properly anymore. I have the handheld version of this model, so I may see if it's easy to transfer the external antenna port over. Otherwise, I'll buy another one because they work so well.

[nkemp]

Check out http://www.fm2way.com/frs.htm They have the Midland remote antenna radios for $40 + shipping.

Chris4099 ... is your problem as simple as a dirty PTT button?

[nkemp]

A radio option for those willing to put in the effort is to get a commercial LMR (Land Mobile Radio) UHF radio that has FCC Part 95 certification (Kenwood and Icom have some such radios) and reprogram it to the GMRS frequencies. There is also a discussion that Part 90 UHF radios can also be used. The Part 95 (covering GMRS) can and is often interpreted such that the Part 90 radio can be used legally. The FCC has not stopped this interpretation. I'll let you research this on your own.

What this gives you is commercial quality, up to 5 watts and better performance. Depending on the radio and if you have a ham license, you can also program and operate them in ham frequencies.

Using this approach, one could use a part 95 certified radio, program it to the GMRS frequencies (1-7 & 15-22), set the power level to up to 5 watts, use a remote antenna and talk to all the GMRS including the first 7 FRS channels totally legally. The only downside is that you cannot broadcast to FRS channels 8-14 (but you can listen). This should generally not be a problem for our application.

[dn010]

I bought 4 of these used on eBay once upon a time, I think I spent $10 on them. We used them when moving down to Florida from New York, 3 of us, 3 vehicles. Definitely did not make 36 miles worth of range and the batteries died pretty frequently but other than that they worked great and kept everyone alert to what was going on.


Google for "FRS/GMRS radio" and you'll get LOTS of photos in the image search or search Amazon.

Here is a link to Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Midland-GXT1000VP4-36-Mile-50-Channel-Two-Way/dp/B001WMFYH4/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1470316995&sr=8-1&keywords=gmrs

And here are some in their retail bubble packs.

45122

[Chris4099]

Check out http://www.fm2way.com/frs.htm They have the Midland remote antenna radios for $40 + shipping.

Chris4099 ... is your problem as simple as a dirty PTT button?

Thanks for pointing that site out. I may direct my club there so they won't spend so much. Last time I Googled the part number, didn't get any other results. As for my issue, it's not working most of the time from the PTT button on both the unit itself and my headset. So I think it's something else.

[nkemp]

UPDATE 2017: FCC updated the FRS/GMRS rules earlier this year. This change had been in the works for quite a while and is good news.

In short:
- Going forward combo FRS/GMRS radios will not be allowed. They will be either FRS or GMRS as defined below
*--- FRS radios will be able to transmit up to 2W PEP and only have the FRS frequencies
*--- GMRS radios will be allowed to transmit up to 5W PEP and only have the GMRS frequencies
- FRS operation (transmission) does not require a license
- GMRS radio operation (transmission) does require a license (no test, simply pay the fee). Listening does not require a license regardless of the frequency.
- Digital communications (texting) will be allowed per the ruling's restrictions
- GPS capability will be allowed
- FRS & GMRS channels (frequencies) have been changed and increased

Read more at:
- ARRL article: http://www.arrl.org/news/fcc-personal-radio-service-revisions-will-affect-gmrs-frs-cb-other-part-95-devices
- Another good overview: https://bettersaferadio.com/fcc-adopts-long-awaited-changes-prs-bands-gmrs-frs-cb-murs/

For the most part, the rules changed for the good. There is still some areas where there is frequency/power/user conflict but it helps clarify the issue relative to license and units. No longer will units be available that are FRS with GMRS capability. It will be one or the other.

This may open the market to more GMRS units that can have an external antenna. Under previous rulings, FRS had to have a fixed antenna and GMRS could have a detachable antenna (allowing for remote antenna mounting). As such, combo FRS/GMRS units could not have a removeable antenna.

What does this mean for us? GMRS is still the preferred device due to increased transmission power and an external antenna helps get it out instead of containing it within or SS shells. For those who stick with FRS, 2W PEP is better than the previous .5W. If I read it correctly, there are now 22 channels shared between FRS & GMRS. But remember that a 5W GMRS radio will have as much trouble receiving a .5 - 2W signal as a FRS radio (assuming the same receiver circuitry).

My recommendation ...
- Get the license required for the radio you operate
*--- If you use FRS at 2W or below, no license is required.
*--- 2-5 (50)W GMRS, get a GMRS license (one license covers you and your extended family)
*--- Ham frequencies, get a ham license

- Use radios FCC certified for that frequency
*--- There are radios on the market (mostly Chinese radios) that will transmit in the FRS/GMRS bands that are not certified for those frequencies and there are reasons why that is the case.

Disclaimer: I'm subject to being wrong without notice. Please let me know of errors and we can update this (actually it will be updated below due to forum editing restrictions).

EDIT:

So if you own a:
- A "bubble pack" FRS/GMRS radio that transmits at 2W or less, it is fundamentally a FRS radio and you can use it without a license or the potential problems previous FCC rules could cause.
- A 2-5W PEP bubble pack ( or other) combo FRS/GMRS radio is fundamentally a GMRS radio and requires a license.

As has been the case, enforcement has been a bigger problem caused by other licensed GMRS users than the FCC. You were more likely to be "turned in" than "caught" by FFC monitoring.

Also, this really opens up the debate as to GMRS call sign usage

[nkemp]

GMRS call sign usage. Per the FCC rules, call signs are to be used as follows. Not that the current rules text is clearer than the old text. Where I think there will be confusion is that a 2W user need not use call signs and a 2.1W user does need to use call signs. Who is keeping track of that?

Here is the rule:
95.1751 GMRS station identification.
Each GMRS station must be identified bytransmission of its FCC-assigned call sign at the endof transmissions and at periodic intervals duringtransmissions except as provided in paragraph (c) ofthis section. A unit number may be included afterthe call sign in the identification.
(a) The GMRS station call sign must betransmitted:
(1) Following a single transmission or a series oftransmissions; and,
(2) After 15 minutes and at least once every15 minutes thereafter during a series oftransmissions lasting more than 15 minutes.
(b) The call sign must be transmitted using voicein the English language or international Morse codetelegraphy using an audible tone.

[nkemp]

Look for the "GMRS-V1" GMRS radio. It is the first I've seen that complies with the new rules. Nice radio, good reviews, allows for an external antenna, ports for mic & speakers, potential to power from the car and other accessories. And reasonably priced.

BTW ...GMRS licenses are now 10 years duration.

[SS Spoiler]

Back in 1987 five of us drove together to DOA's convention at
"Tan-Tara resort at Lake of the Ozark's from Minneapolis. We stayed
in touch with CB radios. Coming into a small town for lunch we
circled the town square looking for a cafe. Finding one we all
pulled in to park in a row. Sitting for minute with the motors rumbling
we heard "ok shut 'em off", after thirty seconds of silence we heard
"ok open doors" and ten doors rose silently. The town erupted in
cheers, cool!, what is it?, "don't move I gotta get my camera" and
so on. We were peppered with questions during our entire lunch.
You can have a lot of fun communicating together.....

[nkemp]

I like the idea of a choreographed entrance!

[David T]

I like the idea of a choreographed entrance!

That's how we coordinate during parades. Keeps us all in formation, we open doors and turn lights on and off in synchronicity. FBS seems to work for us with cell phone back-up.

[Domi]

Back in 1987 five of us drove together to DOA's convention at
"Tan-Tara resort at Lake of the Ozark's from Minneapolis. We stayed
in touch with CB radios. Coming into a small town for lunch we
circled the town square looking for a cafe. Finding one we all
pulled in to park in a row. Sitting for minute with the motors rumbling
we heard "ok shut 'em off", after thirty seconds of silence we heard
"ok open doors" and ten doors rose silently. The town erupted in
cheers, cool!, what is it?, "don't move I gotta get my camera" and
so on. We were peppered with questions during our entire lunch.
You can have a lot of fun communicating together.....

Magic time :)
Do you have some pic to see how the antenna was attached to the body car please?
What about the CB unit, where does it take place inside?

[nkemp]

Magic time :)
Do you have some pic to see how the antenna was attached to the body car please?
What about the CB unit, where does it take place inside?

To build on this ... please post ideas on how to mount 2M/70CM/GMRS/PRS antennas on the DeLorean. Obviously mag mounts don't work. Suction mounts are questionable due to the car's grain. Preferably I'd like to not make any holes or marks on the car.

[David T]

"Back in the day" there was a power antennae offered in the after-market that was AM, FM, and CB. It wasn't the best but it didn't require any additional holes. I think it was called a tri-band antennae. The other options I have seen were on one D there was a hole in the Tee panel and on another car they put a rear wing on and mounted the CB antennae on it. Finally there was a mount where you hooked the antennae to the lip of the trunk lid (of an ordinary car, not a D). You might be able to modify that mount to fit onto the top of the sunshade. If you have a hole in your front fender that would be a good spot to mount a CB antennae.

[nkemp]

There are a variety of NMO mounts (Google NMO antenna Mount). A plain NMO connector is what was likely drilled through the T-panel (which I don't want to do).

There is a NMO trunk lip style mount : https://www.amazon.com/MPD-Digital-no-drill-Trunk/dp/B004SJNWN6 that looks like it would work great at the rear edge of the T-panel ... except that as I watch the louvers rise, I'm not sure it would clear the mount wrap around edge. The louver barely clears the rear edge of the T-panel. Plus it may not be open enough to fit over the panel edge.

One thought ... I have the metal louver brace ... I could get a piece of SS "L" shaped and mount between the brace and the louver vertical center rib (mounted so the flat edge and the leg is up/dwn). Then when it is clear of the louver, fold over the edge 90 degrees for the NMO mount. The trouble with this is that it lacks a ground plane. Grounding the bracket to the car body will help but its location is not optimal or even very good. It wouldn't really see a ground plane until the engine.
EDIT: as I look at the louvers, the wide vertical piece interferes witht he idea and a mor complicated piece would be required. Still doable but messier.

EDIT: Digression ... This could be a removable option for a FM antenna ... for us that live in the sticks and have the windshield antenna.

The trunk lip style might fit the horizontal piece of the louvers. Again, it needs a ground plane for proper operation which could be solved with some metal (foil may work) mounted under the louver. I'm looking into getting this bracket and am looking for a black one preferrably with the right end ... or I'll have to modify it.

The nice part about NMO mounts is that if you change radios/bands, you spin off the antenna and put in one for the band. For example:
- 1/4 wave GMRS antennas are about 6" long
- 2M 1/4 wave antennas are about 19" long.

A 2M antenna may work nicely for GMRS and 2M. 2M antennas can work well with 70CM and 70CM is sorta close to GMRS frequencies (GMRS is about 462mHz, 70CM runs 430.000 MHz – 440.000 MHz) It would be interesting to see the SWR for the GMRS radio on the 2M 1/4 wavelength antenna.

[nkemp]

The FCC rules changes noted above have generated some new products worth considering. Check out Midland's MicroMobile Series (MXT105, MXT115,MXT400) FCC 95J labeled and have power outputs of Power 5 Watts , 15 Watts & 40 Watts respectively. These are mobile mounted units (not handhelds). With these power outputs and external antennas, D2D communications will generally not be an issue. And yes, technically you need a GMRS license to operate.

[David T]

Any radio you pick needs to be popular, inexpensive, and widely available. CB and FBS are the best choices. While there are other bands with more power most of us don't have them. For short range com CB and FBS are OK with Cellular back-up. FBS is so cheap most of us carry 2 so it is easy to lend one to someone temporarily if they don't have one for the day.

[Citizen]

Any radio you pick needs to be popular, inexpensive, and widely available. CB and FBS are the best choices. While there are other bands with more power most of us don't have them. For short range com CB and FBS are OK with Cellular back-up. FBS is so cheap most of us carry 2 so it is easy to lend one to someone temporarily if they don't have one for the day.

The above is what I highly advocate. FRS radios are reliable and so cheap it's a wonder all DeLo activities don't carry them. No license required. I normally carry no less than two radios, but sometimes four, so to be able to loan out or for backup. Yes, cellular is reliable and common, but it's not really practical in a parade, as you'd have to dial up everyone.

By the way, several people have been calling them FBS, but it's actually FRS, as in Family Radio Service.

Thomas

...

[David T]

Thanks for the clarification, I heard it as FBS, now I know it is FRS. Anyway it is what most of us have so it is the best choice. We also pick channel 12 (DMC 12). Very common for most club events to ask members to bring their radios, not just Deloreans.

[nkemp]

Newer GMRS radios are also very inexpensive and offer much much better performance especially as cars on the road spread out. The ones shown above are at the higher end being mobile mounted devices.

For parades, with close communications, FRS may be OK. Bring them, use them, if it works great. BTW ... many older radios are FRS/GMRS combo radios and the GMRS channels broadcast at higher wattage than the FRS channels. So some may be using GMRS, not FRS. But these have fixed antennas and that is a disadvantage. Using a FRS radio on the road to DCS for example, if the last car pulls over, it may be out of range before the push to talk is pressed and nobody in front of them will ever know there is a problem until the last car cell_calls or texts.

The following link gives good range estimates of various technology and conditions: https://radiofreeq.wordpress.com/2013/07/07/survivalist-radio-communications-ham-vs-cb-vs-frs-vs-gmrs-vs-murs/. Many anecdotal articles claim a few miles between better GMRS radios in cars and radios posted above can have 10Mile ranges (Note that the range capabilities on the bubble pack combo radio package are pretty bugus unless you are mountian top to mountian top). And ... YMMV

In the link, the best comparison for D2D highway communications is the last graphic showing pedestrian-to-pedestrian (using the device antennas). Being that the radios are in the car, using the device antenna, the range may be less. If you tell me that your FRS radio range was sometimes longer I'd say "OK". There are a lot of real world parameters at play.

The benefit of newer GMRS radios is higher wattage AND often an option to mount an external antenna. The external antenna will go a LONG way to getting the signal outside the car and get it out farther to other radios thus greater highway separation

BTW ... I use a Kenwood FCC type 90 labeled HT configured to GMRS (a legal configuration). They can be had for cheap ( a relative term). It has an external mike, with controls on the device and mike, is 12Vdc powered, and I use a 2M_band external antenna on the louver. These are professional quality (Fire, police, emergency services, commercial, ski patrol, etc) HT's with great specs. Being a licensed ham, I also programmed in some 2M_band channels for highway emergencies. I'll create a separate post on how and what to do.

For a group deciding what to get now:
- Newer GMRS radios (handheld or mobile mount) with an external antenna is a great option (but the license and station id requirement is a hassle).
- But I'm Starting to lean towards MURS radios. These are license free, no station ID requirement, and using surplus professional radios you can have a GREAT setup, that performs great for not much money. More on that later as well.

[nkemp]

We also pick channel 12 (DMC 12).

Channel 12 is FRS (467.6625). No license required. Older FRS radios are limited to 0.5Watts PEP. Newer ones can be up to 2 Watts but must have a fixed antenna (no external antenna).

Note that some of the inexpensive Chinese radios don't follow the FRS/GMRS rules. So much about FRS/GMRS may not apply if you are using those radios (I also have one of those). They get through using a ham radio operator loophole the best I can tell. Ham operators do not need to use FCC type rated radios on ham radio frequencies. But using them as FRS/GMRS radios violates FCC rules (enforcement is a separate issue).

[David T]

I agree the range on the FRS radios is limited but we overcome that by relaying messages and the first and last cars have each other's cell numbers. Nothing is forever and the GMRS sounds good and the prices will come down too. By then there will probably be something even better. For now most of us have the FRS radios to play with. The biggest problem as I see it with cellular is you can't use it like a party line as you can with FRS. On some of the drives the chatter is the most interesting part! A lot of truckers still use CB and it is always entertaining to hear them when we have a bunch of Deloreans out on a cruise. Then there are apps like WAZE that gives you real-time updates on road conditions. So many things to do that can distract you from driving!

[Citizen]

Agree with all who cited limitations with FRS, but....

Consider 10 cars in a parade, not likely to be more than 200-500 feet apart between first and last cars. A hand-held FRS has ample power, is cheap, easily obtained (try Walmart), and no license required.

In a caravan on the highway, cars are not likely to be more than 1 mile (5280') between the first & last car. A good technique is to arrange a numbering system and guidelines that all drivers agree to before starting out. All cars are numbered, 1 to 10, and cars stay in order as much as possible. As part of the agreement, car #1 should not be a speed demon, as a responsible leader would know someone 10 cars back could fall behind...maybe due to traffic, or catching a red light. Slow down and announce your intentions!

In the event the caravan becomes more than say 2-3 miles, say on the highway, and if the last car has a failure or drops back far enough, car #9 is gonna know it (not visible in rear-view mirror anymore, and cannot be raised on the radio), then that car radios ahead to advise the caravan. Caravan then slows down, or stops, and/or returns to help the straggler.

And like David said, cellular is an excellent backup (and everyone has them). As part of the caravan arrangement, all cell phone numbers are shared before starting out, so could be used if the FRS range is exceeded.

As far as what frequency to choose, I first try this simple guideline. Whatever day it is (ones digit), add 1 to that and that's the groups channel for that day. If today is the 1st choose channel 2. If the 8th, choose 9, if the 9th, choose channel 10, etc. If the day is the tenth or the 20th or the 30th of the month (ends with zero), choose channel 1 (zero plus 1 = 1). This technique keeps it fresh, and is easy for members to remember and (while easy to figure out), may keep the kiddos from busting up your parade or caravan chatter, unless they just happen on your frequency. Then, you could easily change. "Let's go to channel 15!" means go to channel 6 (5+1 = 6). But, use whatever rule(s) you want, as long as all agree.

All just common sense really, but it all first starts with owners bringing their radios with them to DeLo events (you'd be surprised how many people forget).

Thomas

...

[nkemp]

... bringing their radios with them to DeLo events ...

We've had good luck with owners bringing radios ... the not so good part was some radios were FRS channels only, some FRS/GMRS channel combos and some were something that nobody yet knows what channels are programmed (or what other radio services they may stomp on). Some brought extras to share. Some used those shared radios. So there was a mis-mash of radios not working together or getting far enough apart that the signal was garbled or not having enough for all the cars. Some radios lost battery power (having only internal batteries), some could be plugged into the car's 12Vdc. We've also been a part of a group that texted ... that was a PITA ... and is not advised if you are driving alone!

So that prompted me to create this post with more than enough information (more than many care about) that users can decide what would work well for their group. But there should be plenty of info to help new users decide what to do or help users upgrade should they want better performance.

Note: This info is USA specific but many other countries have similar radio regulations (check your local country for your specifics).

[nkemp]

Here are some solution options. All are FCC legal to the best of my knowledge. There are many more non-legal options which I'll not detail.

No matter which of the three solution groups below, all users will be able to communicate within the group regardless of the device selected. Some solutions will perform better than others and are sorta in order of performance. The examples are by no means a complete list.

---------------
FRS - Your group decides to go with the unlicensed FRS radios (FRS as known today. Was previously known as FRS only or FRS/GMRS combo radios). These can be up to 2 Watts (depending on channel). The benefit here is no licensing and no call sign identification requirements. The downside is that they cannot have an external antenna which limits range.

Example FRS Device:
- Get any past or current FRS bubble pack radio such as a Midland - GXT1000VP4

-----------------------
GMRS - Your group decides to use GMRS (as known today, and requires licensing and periodic call sign ID) radio channels and you are trying to decide what you want to get. Here are some options (in order of performance):

A- You can use an older GMRS/FRS bubble pack radio and use as is but only the GMRS channels.
B- Get one of the newer GMRS only radios and use as is.
C- Get one of the newer GMRS radios and add one or more of the options listed below.
D- Buy a used professional grade handheld transceiver, FCC Part 95 certified and program for the GMRS channels and wattage limits. This is a great option for those who like to tinker and are performance driven.

Example GMRS devices:

- For A above, get any past or current FRS bubble pack radio such as a Midland - GXT1000VP4

- For B and C above:
O- Midland Micro Mobile GMRS 2-Way Radio MXT90 mobile mount option
O- BTECH GMRS-V1 handheld transceiver and only program for GMRS channels

-For D above: Kenwood TK-390 is an excellent example.

--------------------------------
MURS - Your group decides to use MURS with no license and no station ID requirement (in order of performance):

X- Get a MURS radio and use as-is
Y- Get a MURS radio and add options listed below
Z- Buy a used professional grade handheld transceiver that meets:
• Part 95 certified and operates on MURS frequencies
• Part 95 certified prior to November 12, 2002 & transmits no more than 2 watts & has no external means to increase power above 2 watts & only operates wideband on the 154 MHz frequencies (all parts must be true)

• Part 90 certified prior to November 12, 2002 & transmits no more than 2 watts & has no external means to increase power above 2 watts & does not narrowband on the 151 MHz & 154 MHz frequencies or narrowband on 151 MHz & wideband on 154 MHz frequencies (all parts must be true)


Example MURS devices:
For X & Y above:
O- BTECH GMRS-V1 handheld transceiver and only program for MURS channels
O- Dakota Alert MURS, M538-HT
For Z above:
- Kenwood TK-2100 programmed for MURS frequencies

=============
Options for C & D & Y & Z above (mix any combination of below and make sure it can be used with your radio you selected):
1) Use with an external speaker/mic or mic (boom or throat)/earbud with PTT switch in the cable or the mic (you too can look like a DeLorean driving Secret Service agent)
2) Use with a 12Vdc power adapter
3) Use with an externally mounted 1/4 or 1/2 wave antenna (slightly shortened 70cm for GMRS and slightly shortened 2m for MURS or buy a band specifically tuned antenna)


***************
Note that CB devices are another solution but I've not detailed them here

[nkemp]

Opps .. error in the following


--------------------------------
MURS - Your group decides to use MURS with no license and no station ID requirement (in order of performance):

X- Get a MURS radio and use as-is
Y- Get a MURS radio and add options listed below
Z- Buy a used professional grade handheld transceiver that meets:
• Part 95 certified and operates on MURS frequencies
• Part 95 certified prior to November 12, 2002 & transmits no more than 2 watts & has no external means to increase power above 2 watts & only operates wideband on the 154 MHz frequencies (all parts must be true)

• Part 90 certified prior to November 12, 2002 & transmits no more than 2 watts & has no external means to increase power above 2 watts & does not narrowband on the 151 MHz & 154 MHz frequencies or narrowband on 151 MHz & wideband on 154 MHz frequencies (all parts must be true)


Example MURS devices:
For X & Y above:
O- BTECH GMRS-V1 handheld transceiver and only program for MURS channels
O- Dakota Alert MURS, M538-HT
For Z above:
- Kenwood TK-2100 programmed for MURS frequencies


"O- BTECH GMRS-V1 handheld transceiver and only program for MURS channels" is wrong since that is a GMRS only radio. Duh! It should be:

O- BTECH MURS-V1 MURS, a MURS only radio