What happens when the dealer can't fix your car?

[Farrar]

I am calling upon the community's collective wisdom to try to find a solution to my current dilemma.

A few years ago I bought a used 2006 turbo Chrysler PT Cruiser. I also bought a service contract through the reseller (CarMax) which covers repairs up to 125,000 miles. The current mileage is 106,000. On July 23, the car suddenly lost momentum on the expressway. I coasted to the shoulder as the malfunction indicator light illuminated and remained illuminated. I could press the accelerator in any gear, but it behaved as if in Neutral. I had it towed to the only Chrysler dealership in my area. They told me that the transmission control module is defective and needs to be replaced. They also told me that it's a part that is no longer manufactured and no dealership in the area has any in stock. They ran "a trace" to try to find a remanufactured computer at any dealer in the country and found none. Now I'm told they're running a second trace.

It looks as if the Chrysler dealership cannot repair a Chrysler vehicle. What can I do? I have a few payments left on the vehicle and thousands of miles left on the service contract. My wife suggests I convince the dealership that if they can't repair the vehicle, they should buy it from me, or use the value of the vehicle toward a new lease. (I am done buying cars - only leasing from now on.)

I've never even heard of such a situation before, where the dealership can't repair its own brand. What are my options? Thanks in advance.

[sdg3205]

I find it hard to believe they can't source a part. I can still get most parts for my 2001 Jeep Grand Cherokee from the dealership, even though I don't. Usually the items dealers phase out first are cosmetic and trim. A transmission control module doesn't seem likely. Get the exact part number and start googling. They will only look so hard, so perhaps a better deal is seeing if they can reimburse and install a part you personally source.

When I needed a new Abs module, eBay was perfect because you have buyer protection - the part HAS to work or you get your money back.

[Dangermouse]

That's unbelievable that a part on a 10 year old car is unobtainable, particularly a main drivetrain part that was no doubt used on a variety of Chrysler and Dodge products.

Have you tried third party parts vendors like parts.com

As noted above, get the part number and Google.

Parts.com have the whole transaxle if you can't get just the controller.

https://www.parts.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=store.sectionSearch&storeid=2&vehicleid=382781&section=AUTOMATIC%20TRANSAXLE&Title=Chrysler-PT%20CRUISER-Limited-L4-2.4-GAS-OEM-Parts

[EdR5150]

Have you tried the PT Cruiser/Mopar/Chrysler forums?

I can't remember where I saw it, but someone mentioned a parts yard that specialized in PT Cruisers. If you can find them, they probably have your part.

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk

[dodint]

Google "Steve Lehto" and send him the story you told us. He's licensed in Michigan but will be able to point you in the right direction to find out your legal remedy.

[Mark D]

Here's one for 50 bucks in nashville.

http://dmctalk.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=45140&d=1470370303

I searched using car-part.com

The site allows you to look up inventory from hundreds of auto salvage yards across the country.

Dealerships often have their hands tied with where they can procure parts from...has to be an approved source from the OEM. In my experience independent shops have better success at finding good used parts since they're not trying to sell you brand new genuine parts at crazy mark up like the stealership is.

And jeez man, why on earth are you driving a PT cruiser in the first place?

[cpistocco]

Isnt there a law that vehicle manufacturers provide parts for a min of 8 years? ( or something like that)?

[Ron]

You did your part -- Hand the problem (back) to CarMax.

[Farrar]

Thanks for all of your suggestions, everyone! The DeLorean community is awesome. :)

Before I take the car (or have it towed) back to CarMax, I decided to contact FCA (Fiat-Chrysler of America) Customer Assistance. The representative I got said that he will contact the dealer on my behalf to get this resolved. That's vague, but it's all I got. I'll keep you updated.

[DMCVegas]

Here's one for 50 bucks in nashville. I searched using car-part.com

I'll second that. I've found insane deals on there before. The best being a full rear suspension including trailing arms and hub carriers for the DMC-12 for $150.



Google "Steve Lehto" and send him the story you told us. He's licensed in Michigan but will be able to point you in the right direction to find out your legal remedy.

I don't know that Lehto can help, as I think he's once stated that Louisiana laws are really different, but *maybe* he might have a referral. If nothing else, he might take an interest in the case enough to make a podcast out of it. Who knows?



It looks as if the Chrysler dealership cannot repair a Chrysler vehicle. What can I do? I have a few payments left on the vehicle and thousands of miles left on the service contract. My wife suggests I convince the dealership that if they can't repair the vehicle, they should buy it from me, or use the value of the vehicle toward a new lease. (I am done buying cars - only leasing from now on.)

The dealership wouldn't be under any obligation to buy the vehicle back from you. FCA probably isn't either, and if they were it would probably cost you more in legal fees than just paying the damn thing off. Lemon law would be tricky in this case, but *technically* if it is impossible for the dealer to repair your vehicle at all, maybe you have something. But only an attorney could tell you for certain. But it's going to be like totaling the car: They're going to discount for the mileage so maybe you only break even.

Now I can't say for certain, but this is what I think is going on: Guy (you) comes in with a busted GT Cruiser (that's the turbo model you have) and has transmission problems. Based upon the type of car and it's age & mileage, you're made a mark for a new car purchase/lease. So they're going to bullshit you tell you all about how this car can't be fixed. They they're going to go through this whole song and dance about how they're trying to track down a part. In the mean time the delay continues to build anxiety in you to loose confidence in this vehicle, as well as it can create a nice financial hardship to further put pressure on you to make you vulnerable.

You now have no confidence in this car. Hell, you're scared of it. Even according to your own words, you're so terrified that you're hoping they could take this vehicle in and give you "...the value of the vehicle toward a new lease." which thanks to this repair, you probably don't think is very much at all.

What they're hoping is going to happen next is you blindly rush into another vehicle purchase/lease from them. They make a nice commission on the sale, and you feel as though you were "lucky" enough to unload that "junk" car. When in truth they're going to seriously screw you on the trade-in using this ploy about how the car cannot be fixed. They're going to patch your old car up to run again and will send it to off to auction where it gets sold to some "Buy Here, Pay Here" dealership where someone else is going to drive it like nothing happened. And the idea is that you'll never know how bad the dealership screwed you. Hell, you'll actually be thanking them for "saving" you from that old car!

Here's my advice for you:

If you have an extended warranty, you need to do the footwork and call the warranty company. They can have the influence we consumers do not to get this repair taken care of.
Never buy a 3rd party service plan. ONLY purchase extended plans directly from the manufacturer. Demand it from the sales staff, or contact the manufacturer directly, who will be more than happy to sell you a factory-authorized plan.
Unless it's a Jeep Wrangler, never EVER buy a Chrysler product! No matter who the manufacturer, some cars just slip through the cracks, and even I'm a very forgiving owner to assume the best of intentions. But save for an old Dakota I owned, I've had nothing but trouble with their products.
Unless you're expressly trying to get a car which is out of your price range so you can show-off to the neighbors, OR you're running a fleet, never lease a vehicle! It's financially a bad investment. Just buy a car you're going to be happy with for the next 10 years to get your full money out of it.


You own a DeLorean. A car which sold in far fewer numbers and was already orphaned almost 35 years ago. You can keep that going yourself using hand tools in your garage. Do you honestly think that a true professional can't get this GT Cruiser going?

[krs09]

I am calling upon the community's collective wisdom to try to find a solution to my current dilemma.

A few years ago I bought a used 2006 turbo Chrysler PT Cruiser. I also bought a service contract through the reseller (CarMax) which covers repairs up to 125,000 miles. The current mileage is 106,000. On July 23, the car suddenly lost momentum on the expressway. I coasted to the shoulder as the malfunction indicator light illuminated and remained illuminated. I could press the accelerator in any gear, but it behaved as if in Neutral. I had it towed to the only Chrysler dealership in my area. They told me that the transmission control module is defective and needs to be replaced. They also told me that it's a part that is no longer manufactured and no dealership in the area has any in stock. They ran "a trace" to try to find a remanufactured computer at any dealer in the country and found none. Now I'm told they're running a second trace.

It looks as if the Chrysler dealership cannot repair a Chrysler vehicle. What can I do? I have a few payments left on the vehicle and thousands of miles left on the service contract. My wife suggests I convince the dealership that if they can't repair the vehicle, they should buy it from me, or use the value of the vehicle toward a new lease. (I am done buying cars - only leasing from now on.)

I've never even heard of such a situation before, where the dealership can't repair its own brand. What are my options? Thanks in advance.

I am a service manager at a Chevy dealership and I take care of all the corvettes that come into our shop. I have certinly ran into issues getting a hold of parts on some of the old vettes. I would have no issue installing a outside sourced part for the customer to fix the concern but then our hand are tied on any part warranty. If you or the advisor can find the part the extended warranty should honor the replacement. You do have to do a little research youself (part wise) and hopefully the advisor is doin the same. You should call the warranty company, you the consumer are going to have alot more pull then the dealer.

[valdez]

Here's one for 50 bucks in nashville.

http://dmctalk.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=45140&d=1470370303

I searched using car-part.com

The site allows you to look up inventory from hundreds of auto salvage yards across the country.

Dealerships often have their hands tied with where they can procure parts from...has to be an approved source from the OEM. In my experience independent shops have better success at finding good used parts since they're not trying to sell you brand new genuine parts at crazy mark up like the stealership is.

And jeez man, why on earth are you driving a PT cruiser in the first place?


$50???? You can nearly buy a whole PT Cruiser for that. You probably should buy a whole car for parts especially a Chrysler, as this will be far from the last part you need.

[Farrar]

Correction: most of the DeLorean community is awesome. I see it didn't take very long for the "My car's better than your car" song and dance to start. LOL

And evidently some people don't know what "service contract" means...

But that's OK. Thanks to the rest of you! You know who you are. :)

[Farrar]

Now I can't say for certain, but this is what I think is going on: Guy (you) comes in with a busted GT Cruiser (that's the turbo model you have) and has transmission problems. Based upon the type of car and it's age & mileage, you're made a mark for a new car purchase/lease. So they're going to bullshit you tell you all about how this car can't be fixed. They they're going to go through this whole song and dance about how they're trying to track down a part. In the mean time the delay continues to build anxiety in you to loose confidence in this vehicle, as well as it can create a nice financial hardship to further put pressure on you to make you vulnerable.

You now have no confidence in this car. Hell, you're scared of it. Even according to your own words, you're so terrified that you're hoping they could take this vehicle in and give you "...the value of the vehicle toward a new lease." which thanks to this repair, you probably don't think is very much at all.

What they're hoping is going to happen next is you blindly rush into another vehicle purchase/lease from them. They make a nice commission on the sale, and you feel as though you were "lucky" enough to unload that "junk" car. When in truth they're going to seriously screw you on the trade-in using this ploy about how the car cannot be fixed. They're going to patch your old car up to run again and will send it to off to auction where it gets sold to some "Buy Here, Pay Here" dealership where someone else is going to drive it like nothing happened. And the idea is that you'll never know how bad the dealership screwed you. Hell, you'll actually be thanking them for "saving" you from that old car!

I think this is probably what's going on. With luck, FCA customer assistance can cut through the bullshit. I'm not buying from this dealer, anyway, and they should know it by now. Why would I buy from a place that dicks their customers around so badly? My opinion is that it's not the car that's the problem, it's the service department dragging their feet on every repair.

CarMax sold me the car and the service contract. I'll have to give them a call and see what my options are. That's a good idea. Thanks!

[DMCVegas]

I think this is probably what's going on. With luck, FCA customer assistance can cut through the bullshit. I'm not buying from this dealer, anyway, and they should know it by now. Why would I buy from a place that dicks their customers around so badly? My opinion is that it's not the car that's the problem, it's the service department dragging their feet on every repair.

CarMax sold me the car and the service contract. I'll have to give them a call and see what my options are. That's a good idea. Thanks!

No worries, man. If by chance you DO get to speak with an actual FCA rep, don't make the mistake of trying to take your frustrations out on them. Actually, this article might help explain it better than I can: http://oppositelock.kinja.com/warranty-problem-stories-and-advice-from-a-retire-1646855055

I also had an old coworker go through this same thing too. He had an 8 year old Acura with less than 34,000 miles on the clock. In Houston. Which was insane, but made since as he lived less than 5 miles from work, and only used it for commuting since he and his family otherwise drove everywhere in her SUV. Anyhow, he went to go and trade it in at the local Acura dealership, and they wanted the car bad. They gave him an offer of $9K, but when he declined, suddenly the salesman left and came back after "talking to his manager" that he was just notified by the mechanic that the steering system was defective on his car. It did have a slight leak, but the salesman was telling him that he shouldn't even drive the car. That it was dangerous, and that he should take one of their new cars while they both decided on the trade-in because it was too dangerous to drive his current car. My coworker declined again, and suddenly the guy says that he's only looking out for his safety, and doesn't want his wife to get killed when the car looses control on the freeway at high speeds because he insists upon driving a dangerous car.

His wife not knowing about cars was mortified and started to push. But he declined. They then took the car to a couple of other dealerships for quotes instead. In the end he got a little less than $13K for the car, and two separate mechanics at two separate dealerships verified for his wife that nothing was wrong with the car other than a leak which would never cause such a problem with loosing control of the car.

Not all dealerships are that way of course. The last time we bought a new car in 2014, the entire experience was positively amazing. Although I did get pre-approved financing and a blank check ahead of time, which is the BEST way to buy since you already know there will be no money down, what your spending cap is, and what your payments will be relative to the amount you spend. No surprises at all.

[dn010]

Am I the only one seeing that this is $50 for an ECM-engine computer, when he needs a TCM?


Here's one for 50 bucks in nashville.

http://dmctalk.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=45140&d=1470370303

I searched using car-part.com

The site allows you to look up inventory from hundreds of auto salvage yards across the country.

Dealerships often have their hands tied with where they can procure parts from...has to be an approved source from the OEM. In my experience independent shops have better success at finding good used parts since they're not trying to sell you brand new genuine parts at crazy mark up like the stealership is.

And jeez man, why on earth are you driving a PT cruiser in the first place?

[DMCVegas]

I am a service manager at a Chevy dealership and I take care of all the corvettes that come into our shop. I have certinly ran into issues getting a hold of parts on some of the old vettes. I would have no issue installing a outside sourced part for the customer to fix the concern but then our hand are tied on any part warranty.

Which depending upon the warranty company and their requirements, you may only be able to install the part they supply, even if you can source it elsewhere. Had a differential go out under one of these 3rd party service plans, and had to wait a week and then some for the thing to come in. Not going through THAT again. But I'm sure you're probably quite familiar with those cases.

[DMCVegas]

Am I the only one seeing that this is $50 for an ECM-engine computer, when he needs a TCM?

According to the post, TCM = Transmission Control Module, not Traction. And ECM from the site seems to represent Electronic Control Module, not Engine.

The acronym abuse across manufacturers and platforms is confusing as all hell.

The other thing not mentioned is if this is Manual or Automatic. If it's a manual, it sounds like a blown clutch. If it's an automatic, it sounds like bad internals as the thing should kick into "Limp Home mode" with Reverse and either 2nd or 3rd gears being the only ones available to still drive.

[dn010]

My only point is Farrar stated he needed a Transmission Control Module, TCM. The image shows "Engine Computer", "Electronic Control Module".

While it was well intended, it isn't what is needed unfortunately.

I thought Traction control was TCS control module or something similar? (they are all confusing, yes!)

-
In any case, good luck - I hope they will do something for you to fix the issue!


According to the post, TCM = Transmission Control Module, not Traction. And ECM from the site seems to represent Electronic Control Module, not Engine.

The acronym abuse across manufacturers and platforms is confusing as all hell.

[Mark D]

My only point is Farrar stated he needed a Transmission Control Module, TCM. The image shows "Engine Computer", "Electronic Control Module".

While it was well intended, it isn't what is needed unfortunately.

I thought Traction control was TCS control module or something similar? (they are all confusing, yes!)

-
In any case, good luck - I hope they will do something for you to fix the issue!

One of the negative aspects of car-part.com is the naming convention for parts crosses all makes and models so it's not always perfectly clear what is being described. There is an option to search for all non-engine related ECU's but those generally turn up hits on ABS modules, air bag modules, or lighting control modules. For an 06 PT cruiser the TCM is plugged into the PCM (powertrain control module) which is lumped into the electronic/engine control module category on car-part.com.

The other thing to keep in mind is whether or not the salvage yard listing the component places it in the right category. My point in posting that one for 50 bucks is that the parts are out there. The best way to verify what you're searching for is actually correct is to get the PN of the old module and have that available when you call on any hits.

In the couple minutes of research I did last night I read that the earlier PT's had a different TCM than the later ones starting in 04. If the OP ends up trying to source this part himself I'd recommend requesting a photo of the actual part before it ships to confirm it's a match.

[DMCVegas]

My only point is Farrar stated he needed a Transmission Control Module, TCM. The image shows "Engine Computer", "Electronic Control Module".

While it was well intended, it isn't what is needed unfortunately.

I thought Traction control was TCS control module or something similar? (they are all confusing, yes!)

-
In any case, good luck - I hope they will do something for you to fix the issue!

Ahhhhh! I see what you're saying now. Whew! Any more acronyms here and we might have accidentally summoned Gary Busey...

Anyhow, looking at the site, anytime you choose the Transmission Module, it keeps skipping over to airbags. In any case, it shouldn't be too difficult to also just search for parts for one of these cars, and then just call the junkyard directly to ask for the part. Seems also like front impacts to the left side and high water also shorten the life of these modules. However, there are places that also rebuild them, so it is possible to repair the part.

[David T]

Assuming the dealer is correct and the module is bad, one should be sourceable but not necessarily through their normal parts channels. Maybe a salvage (junk) yard? What happens when they get one and it still won't work? Blame the new part? As a customer it should not be your problem, all you care about is getting it fixed with the service contract you paid for and is still in force. You need to read the fine print to see what rights you have if it cannot be fixed. If they do manage to fix it, dump the car as quickly as you can before it breaks again and never buy another Chrysler again. Tell them if it needs a shift computer you have one that fits a Delorean, maybe it will work? There is a reason there are no more of those modules, they all probably fail and there are no more and the vendor is no longer making them because they are so bad. Support and service on older cars (and even no so old cars) is getting worse and worse. The manufacturers don't want to spend the money it costs and it costs a LOT! Just imagine the situation you would be in if you didn't have a service contract! You might have to junk the car! Don't get excited, you may still wind up giving up the car but someone may have to give you something for it. You may have to have a lawyer read the service contract and send them a letter to force the situation. Otherwise this could drag on for a while and you don't have the use of the car. Does the service contract provide for a loaner or a rental?

[DMCMW Dave]

Assuming the dealer is correct and the module is bad, one should be sourceable but not necessarily through their normal parts channels. Maybe a salvage (junk) yard??

It's not like you can't find a PT Cruiser in the junkyard at this point.

[DMCMW Dave]

(I am done buying cars - only leasing from now on.)
.

A smarter move would be to quit buying Chrysler products. The company has been bought and sold so many times in the past 10 years it has no real "culture" anymore. They really don't care.

BTW - Leasing does not protect you from anything, the lease company has nothing to do with the manufacturer and couldn't care less if you are happy with the car. It's also generally the most expensive way to own a car.

What you want is a good car with a strong warranty, and good dealers. "Good dealers" is the hard part.

[sdg3205]

The "post bail out" models seem to have a better reputation. I have owned two pre-bailout Jeeps (2000 and a 2001) and they need a lot of TLC. My old TJ went through crank position sensors like water. In the end i sold it because I never knew if it was going to run. My 2001 Grand Cherokee has over 350,000 km and is pretty darn reliable, but has some of the worst electronics and coding - like AC that powers on and off randomly and memory seats and mirrors with Alzheimer's.

[Farrar]

If the OP ends up trying to source this part himself I'd recommend requesting a photo of the actual part before it ships to confirm it's a match.

Someone suggested getting the OEM part number from the service advisor. I'd probably do that.

I'm not a native of this area, and last night I spoke to someone who is. Apparently, this particular dealership has a reputation for being notorious for trying to push people to buy a new car instead of having theirs repaired. I guess I should have done some research before I had my car towed there. Live and learn, I guess!

[Farrar]

Apparently, this particular dealership has a reputation for being notorious for trying to push people to buy a new car instead of having theirs repaired.

Looks like the stories I was told were true. After the Fiat-Chrysler customer service representative called on my behalf -- lo and behold! -- the dealership has found a PCM and it's being shipped.

I'm amazed that businesses can engage in such shady practices and get away with it, even have a reputation for it. But that's the way it is, I guess.

[DMCVegas]

Looks like the stories I was told were true. After the Fiat-Chrysler customer service representative called on my behalf -- lo and behold! -- the dealership has found a PCM and it's being shipped.

Whodathunkit?



I'm amazed that businesses can engage in such shady practices and get away with it, even have a reputation for it. But that's the way it is, I guess.

They do it and get away with it because they can.

It's a symbiotic relationship between the dealer network and the manufacturer. The dealers need cars to sell, and the manufacturer needs the dealers to move vehicles. Sometimes the manufacturers can also abuse the dealers too *cough* *Nissan*. But no matter what, they move cars, and in the end that is all that matters. Particularly in the world of Chrysler who terminated franchises during the bailout, only the strong dealerships survived, which ultimately meant the shadiest ones.

I've dealt with 5 separate Chrysler dealerships across 4 different states when it came to car buying and getting them fixed. Only 1 of them in Arizona was decent, and the Nevada and Texas ones were disgusting. I've also ever really owned a single Chrysler product that I enjoyed, and that's probably because it gave me the least trouble. Everything else was just riddled with engineering flaws. On the used ones I bought that had trouble, I can't always blame the manufacturer since I don't know what happened before. But I've had everything from leaking radiators to destroyed differentials. But for the one factory-new Liberty I bought, what a nightmare. 9 Window regulators in less than 3 years. Gunk in the oil filler because the dealership didn't reinstall the vent tube insert to address the factory flaw. Bad factory alignment that chewed-up the two front tires. And then that whole exploding gas tank thing too. But we dumped it before the recall came out.

Every manufacturer has horror stories with the cars, or the dealerships. So when you have customer complaints, you've just got to weed through them and find the few with legitimate problems, the rest who are whiney morons. But Chrysler? Never again.
Their assembly line employees that build vehicles are the worst workforce save for Yugo. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2YaQCsrDfdY)
Their cars designs are old as hell and not as safe. (http://www.iihs.org/iihs/news/desktopnews/flexing-muscle-sports-car-ratings-show-range-of-performance)
Their trucks are worse than their cars. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_V5WGkRZQOU)

Do yourself a favor: Save for perhaps older Jeeps, Muscle cars, and some older Diesel trucks which are all for a hobby instead of a daily driver, Never buy another Chrysler. There are far better choices out there from every other manufacturer available.

[Farrar]

Save for perhaps older Jeeps, Muscle cars, and some older Diesel trucks which are all for a hobby instead of a daily driver, Never buy another Chrysler. There are far better choices out there from every other manufacturer available.

I rented a Ford Focus recently. It was nice, especially the backup camera. I liked the way it felt planted to the road. Toyotas (the wife's car of choice) always feel too bouncy for my taste.

But truth be told, I'll probably just lease whatever is affordable and gets the job done.

[DMCVegas]

I rented a Ford Focus recently. It was nice, especially the backup camera. I liked the way it felt planted to the road. Toyotas (the wife's car of choice) always feel too bouncy for my taste.

But truth be told, I'll probably just lease whatever is affordable and gets the job done.

I bought a Ford Focus in 2014, and love the hell out of it. It's a weird design because it has an automated manual transmission with rotating cams to move between gears instead of a shifter knob with linkage, and solenoids which operate the clutches (dual because it has telescopic input shafts that divide between odd and even gears). You can't creep like you do in an automatic which is why people have so many complaints about them behaving oddly. Only the 2013's and up have the better seals on the transmission case to prevent leaks, and the final shift profile the flashed it with last year make the thing just smooth as silk.

Damn thing is also a go-kart. Handles like it's on rails, gets beautiful fuel economy, and has a nice burst of power when you need it from the variable timing.

Anyhow... What is affordable and gets the job done doesn't just mean getting the cheapest car you can. Some are just inherently bad. And as for leasing, it's one of the worst mistakes you can make. Unless you're trying to make a Mercedes affordable, you're opting for a hell hole of a money pit that you know ahead of time will constantly breakdown and cost you a couple thousand each time (Land Rover), or it's a commercial vehicle that's going to plummet in value from mileage and be purposefully abused/destroyed, never ever lease a vehicle. You'll loose money every time, and you're no better off.

Us? We opted for the Focus since it's pretty cheap, safe as hell, and it's a true-global platform car. Meaning parts are going to be super-cheap and plentiful for years to come since we're shooting for 10 years of service before retiring it. And it was just fun. That is what makes a car affordable for me.

[mr_maxime]

Whodathunkit?
Every manufacturer has horror stories with the cars, or the dealerships. So when you have customer complaints, you've just got to weed through them and find the few with legitimate problems, the rest who are whiney morons. But Chrysler? Never again.
Their assembly line employees that build vehicles are the worst workforce save for Yugo. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2YaQCsrDfdY)
Their cars designs are old as hell and not as safe. (http://www.iihs.org/iihs/news/desktopnews/flexing-muscle-sports-car-ratings-show-range-of-performance)
Their trucks are worse than their cars. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_V5WGkRZQOU)


Their vans also performed rather poorly too. I did have an interview at the Jefferson North Plant back in 2013 for their metrology dept. Didnt get it though.

[Morpheus]

And as for leasing, it's one of the worst mistakes you can make. Unless you're trying to make a Mercedes affordable, you're opting for a hell hole of a money pit that you know ahead of time will constantly breakdown and cost you a couple thousand each time (Land Rover), or it's a commercial vehicle that's going to plummet in value from mileage and be purposefully abused/destroyed, never ever lease a vehicle. You'll loose money every time, and you're no better off.


Please tell me how driving a new car every few years is such a mistake. The only time Leasing gets you into trouble is when you go dramatically over the mileage allotment and turn the keys in at the end and walk away. If you lease another vehicle, or end up financing the balance and keeping the leased vehicle, mileage overages are generally overlooked because the dealer is selling/leasing another car and kept you as a customer. In addition, you only pay sales tax on the part of the car's value that you are using, rather than the entire car.

If the following conditions apply to you, then leasing is actually not a bad choice:
-You would like to drive a new car every 3 years or so and always be covered by a factory warranty.
-You don't modify your cars aside from window tint.
-You generally don't trash your cars and keep them in good shape.
-You like not having a high car payment.

Personally, I was in a pattern with my daily driver cars that every few years my needs would change (family/hauling/economy) and I ended up trading in a car I purchased on a new or different car. Even though I take care of my cars I end up getting a low ball amount for the trade in, the negative equity would always end up being tacked on to the new vehicle. You can see where I'm going here.

With modern cars becoming more and more disposable, buying & keeping one for 5 or even 10+ years isn't as feasible or cost-effective as it once was, as demonstrated by Farrar's situation. Of course there are exceptions to every rule, but my point is that leasing isn't the horrible option that it used to be back in the day.

[Farrar]

If the following conditions apply to you, then leasing is actually not a bad choice:
-You would like to drive a new car every 3 years or so and always be covered by a factory warranty.
-You don't modify your cars aside from window tint.
-You generally don't trash your cars and keep them in good shape.
-You like not having a high car payment.

Check, check, check, and check - especially the factory warranty.

Also, I won't know what kind of vehicle I will need within the next few years because my wife and I may have kids within that time period, and she is also due for a replacement vehicle within that time frame. Being able to turn in my next vehicle within 2-3 years and change it out is an option I consider quite valuable.

I used to think that I could fight the manufacturers' "planned obsolescence" methodology, but I have to be realistic now: if a dealer doesn't even stock a part for a vehicle whose manufacture ended just six model years ago, there's no point in buying a used car and saying "Well, I'll show 'em! I'll keep this car for twenty years!" You just can't do that anymore. In many cases, the parts just aren't there.

I read today that Fiat/Chrysler will cease manufacturing cars in the U.S. next year. That's the last straw for me. It took the dealer here almost two weeks to find a part and a week to ship it from within the United States. When the supply lines are all over North America and Europe, and crude oil prices go back up making shipping more expensive, I'm guessing it will be even worse.

It's a shame, really. Since the 1960s, my generation and my parents' generation together have owned over a dozen Mopar vehicles. Most of them were kept well beyond ten years. (My parent's 1964 Dart, for example, was finally sold in 1978 with over 200,000 miles on the original slant-six engine.) We bought them and had them serviced at dealerships, and we were treated well. Our loyalty was valued and rewarded. Now, it's obvious that the company just doesn't care anymore.

Boy, this thread got totally sidetracked. LOL Oops.

[DaraSue]

More anecdata for the "Don't buy another Chrysler" collection:

I inherited my mom's '02 PT Cruiser after she passed away in early 2006. She'd had it between 2-3 years at that point. When she bought it, she paid around $17k despite it having over 50K miles on it (partly my fault for not going to the dealer with her, I realize). When I sold it 6 months later (for $6400, to one of those cash for your car places) it had around 70K miles and the engine was wobbling in the way that's apparently indicative of a cracked mount or a non-firing cylinder. Now, my mother was not a car-savvy person (I'm not sure she even knew how to check oil until I showed her in her 50s) but that kind of problem on a car that new, with less than 100K miles? Really?

And then there's my friend whose new Jeep came with the "feature" of freezing every system in the car if somebody fiddles with the door lock, necessitating the car to be towed back to the dealer and un-bricked. Sure hope you never accidentally stick the wrong key in it in the middle of the desert/woods/any other place people theoretically buy Jeeps to drive them... :rolleyes1:

[Farrar]

You can get anecdotes about pretty much anything. A coworker of mine told me today about his wife's BMW that needs a new battery. The dealer wanted hundreds of dollars to "install and register" the new battery (on top of the cost of the battery itself, of course).

The more complicated a system is, the easier it is for it to break - and the more complicated a system is, the more money you can charge the customer for the work. It's a "win-win" for the manufacturers and dealerships.

Side note: I wonder how long it will be before it's easier to get parts for a "classic" vehicle than a modern one. A neighbor of mine has a 1974 Charger and gets parts from Year One. That car gets driven several times a week and never gets taken to a shop because it's easy for the "home mechanic" to work on. I bet if the initial cost of the "muscle car" was lower, he could actually end up saving money in the long run over buying a new car every five years.

[DMCVegas]

Please tell me how driving a new car every few years is such a mistake.

You got it...


The only time Leasing gets you into trouble is when you go dramatically over the mileage allotment and turn the keys in at the end and walk away. If you lease another vehicle, or end up financing the balance and keeping the leased vehicle, mileage overages are generally overlooked because the dealer is selling/leasing another car and kept you as a customer. In addition, you only pay sales tax on the part of the car's value that you are using, rather than the entire car.

Not necessarily. Depending upon the lease, you may end up with a Balloon Payment at the end which you may not be able to financially cover. So in that case you may get stuck having to buy the vehicle, and rolling that payment into the financing and then have to pay it back with compounded interest. That payment may vary greatly as the estimated value of the vehicle fluctuates between market pricing and vehicle condition. Market pricing is a big one too. Just ask Ford when back in the early 90's they pushed hard for consumer leasing on the Taurus. They banked that most people would keep the cars, but actually most opted not to. So the market flooded and significantly depreciated vehicle values far more that previous forecasting predicted. So when Lexus and Mercedes are flooding the airwaves with all those commercials about leasing events for particular cars, those are the ones that are going to drop in value a pretty good amount in a few years.

So with a lease, in reality you're just paying for the depreciation of a vehicle and then some. So for the next buyer of your used car, you've just covered their financial loss. Worse yet if you keep the car, you can end up paying interest on that depreciation. And believe me, nothing in this world is free. They're not going to overlook mileage fees at all. They're just going to roll the penalties into other charges and make their money back elsewhere.



If the following conditions apply to you, then leasing is actually not a bad choice:
-You would like to drive a new car every 3 years or so and always be covered by a factory warranty.

The need to drive a new car every few years is NOT a financially sound decision. That's more ego, and/or poor planning. Not trying to attack, please don't be mad at me. But I'm just saying.... Otherwise, what is the big deal about a factory warranty? Never-minding the fact we're on a site dedicated to preserving 35 year-old orphaned car and we're keeping these ones going, if it's that important you can always just opt for the manufacturer's own extended warranty plan for any new vehicle you buy. It's less than $2K in most cases, and it gets treated just like a factory warranty since it's an official program from the manufacturer. Sure, the dealer doesn't tell you about these, because they're not making money off of them, but you can easily purchase them directly.



-You don't modify your cars aside from window tint.

I don't think that most people modify cars anyway. Even the nicest, top of the line, after market radio clashes with the interior of the car and looks like something someone bought on layaway at Poncho's Giveaway.



-You generally don't trash your cars and keep them in good shape.

If you trash vehicles you're never going to come out ahead on them, and are going to keep on buying new ones anyway. Leasing vs. buying doesn't help you in any regards there.



-You like not having a high car payment.

No offense, but there are two other fantastic ways to avoid this as well:

Pay your bills and keep your credit score high so that you get low-interest loans.
Stop buying things that you cannot afford.

Again, I mean no offense. Certainly bad things happen to good people and credit scores get dinged from time to time. So that might be out of an individual's or a couple's control to a certain extent. But what's wrong with just spending your money on something you can better afford instead?

But even after all of that, here is a website with even more examples of lease pitfalls: http://www.bankrate.com/finance/auto/top-10-leasing-booby-traps-1.aspx



Personally, I was in a pattern with my daily driver cars that every few years my needs would change (family/hauling/economy) and I ended up trading in a car I purchased on a new or different car. Even though I take care of my cars I end up getting a low ball amount for the trade in, the negative equity would always end up being tacked on to the new vehicle. You can see where I'm going here.

I'm not trying to sound hostile when I say this, so please know that I'm just talking frankly and openly here. Honestly, I'm afraid I cannot relate to that at all. That is a completely alien world to me.

I've been through 17 different cars in my life so far, and at my peak owned 4 different ones simultaneously for different purposes. Certainly I'm married now, and the priorities are changing, sure. But right now I've got the DeLorean as my project, an '07 F-150 that I daily, and a '14 Focus that my wife uses daily. The idea is that once the D gets back on the road, it will be shuffled in and out of daily use when I take the other vehicles down for maintenance and repairs. In a few years here once we get back to Vegas, the F-150 will be retired as a service vehicle, and we'll toss another economical vehicle into our little fleet that'll be good on gas and haul us around.

But because I didn't just dump the vehicles and saw them all the way through until the end, I have them. I mean, you want to talk about low car payments? Having a vehicle paid-off with ZERO monthly payments is my idea of the perfect car payment. The most affordable car I've ever found is the one that you own outright.


With modern cars becoming more and more disposable, buying & keeping one for 5 or even 10+ years isn't as feasible or cost-effective as it once was, as demonstrated by Farrar's situation. Of course there are exceptions to every rule, but my point is that leasing isn't the horrible option that it used to be back in the day.

That is not a fair argument at all. Farrar's situation was a scumbag dealership that was pretty much refusing to repair his car because they were trying to force him into buying a new car from them. Which as he went on to say, as soon as Chrysler themselves got involved, this unobtainable part magically appeared. That isn't a problem with the car: It's a problem with the dealer, as well as consumer perception. Also, be smarter about buying cars too. Opt for the reliable, mass-produced ones with tons and tons of aftermarket parts available cheaply.

"Old cars don't last as long because they weren't engineered as well. But new cars are disposable, so they won't last either!"

It's an old argument. It perpetual catch-22 tossed out by salesmen to scare people into buying new cars constantly, and it seems to keep working. Cars are only as disposable as you want them to be. That's just the honest truth.

Let's say now for arguments sake that you have a $350 a month payment on a new car. Once the loan is paid off (60-72 months on average now) the car is yours. You get the title and you keep it. Trading it in, you're almost always going to get screwed, so you should sell to a private party. But what if instead you keep it? What kind of car do you have that is going to run you $350 a month in repairs for years on end? Seriously?

Budget yourself a car repair fund for your vehicles. Certain things you know are going to come about from little items like maintenance, moderate ones like brake systems, and then your big items like transmission rebuilds. But I promise you that in the long run, even those repairs will be far cheaper than just continuing to lease vehicles over and over again. Hell, it's cheaper than just buying new cars. Especially as other operating costs like insurance rates and registration prices on your older vehicles start to go down and eventually plummet.

Again, I also don't have to keep swapping out cars constantly either. Even before I had my truck, if I needed to move something, I'd just go get a rental truck or van to get the job done. Which was also far cheaper than having to get another vehicle. Most important of all is that when you buy, you also get a nice break from car payments. Yes you still have maintenance and other repairs, again it is a fraction of the cost of getting another car, but you get to pocket the cost of the cash.

So let's take a look here. Not even figuring in down payments and other fees with leasing, lets say that you get a payment of $200 a month, and lease vehicles for 10 years. That totals out to $24,000 you've spent. But let's compare what happens instead when I purchase a vehicle, with payments of $350 a month on a 5 year loan. I will have paid out $21,000. But let me do you one better. Let's say that I make the vehicle last another 5 years, and take that monthly payment and place it into savings.

By comparison, over the span of 10 years, you have lost $24,000. I on the other hand now have $21,000 in cash AND a ownership of an asset (the vehicle I purchased) which I can sell and obtain even more money for. What advantage do I have by leasing a vehicle?

[Dangermouse]

But don't forget Robert, that out of that $21k you will have had to drop a few dollars on age related maintenance repairs such as timing belts, alternators, water pumps, batteries etc etc that a 10 year old car will need but a 3 year old car shouldn't.

But it's really personal preference, horses for courses. Economically, financing a car will always win, but an owner has to make his own decision about whether he would prefer that money in the bank at the end of 10 years or have spent it to essentially rent a <3 year old car with all the latest safety and convenience features.

We have a young guy in our office at the moment, mid 20s, new to this country, with a wife and young baby, who is somehow convinced that he needs to buy a 7 seater vehicle for the 1 time a year his family visit him. But he has expensive tastes, like a 2015 BMW X5. He must have the latest stuff and anything older than 3 years old just wont cut it. He is willing to consider it a permanent monthly expense, like electricity or rent, and has no real interest in having any value in the car (I'm suggesting that he gets the wife a minivan and then he can commute in something fun, but apparently she wants a Mini.......... ). In this case, a fool and his money......... IMHO, but what do I know.

[Farrar]

a fool and his money.........

... are my two best friends! ;)

[Dangermouse]

Just to be clear, I was talking about the guy I my office. Not Farrar.

[mr_maxime]

The one positive I can factor in from always having the newest cars is safety. While working in the crash industry, I knew exactly how unsafe my paid for 2000 accord was vs a brand new accord.

[dodint]

I enjoy the cut of Robert's jib.

Preach on, brother!

[Farrar]

I'm surprised no one has come onto this thread yet and told me to get a 1979 Ford F-150 as my next "daily driver."

[content22207_2]

I'm surprised no one has come onto this thread yet and told me to get a 1979 Ford F-150 as my next "daily driver."

6th Gen are collector items. Drives the price way higher than comparable 7th-9th Gen (1980-1997).

I use vintage F150's as my daily drivers all the time. They are so much easier to deal with than a passenger car.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[content22207_2]

Daily drivers:

45288

Each one costs about $18 per month to keep on the road (exclusive of fuel).

Bill Robertson
#5939

[DMCVegas]

But don't forget Robert, that out of that $21k you will have had to drop a few dollars on age related maintenance repairs such as timing belts, alternators, water pumps, batteries etc etc that a 10 year old car will need but a 3 year old car shouldn't.

That is a very valid point, but that also depends upon the vehicle type as well. Not all cars are going to require certain expensive repairs like timing belts. Some are also far easier to work on as well so the labor costs are lower on repairs (I'm looking at you Audi!). The biggest thing as well is how much of the work you do yourself. I can perform I'd say 80%-90% of the repairs needed for only the cost of parts and time. I did the brakes on my truck for around $250 versus about $600 had I taken it into a shop. Jiffy Lube wants $60 to replace a fuel filter which I can do for $18. When it comes to the bigger repairs, such as rebuilding the transmission which I know will have to be done in a few years, I'll have someone else do that, but since I've already saved so much already, the cost doesn't affect me that much.

Also, the cost of repairs overall doesn't affect me either. You see, when we budget, we run the expenses like a corporation. There is already a maintenance and repair budget separately maintained for vehicle repairs. That money is already set aside as an operating expense just like insurance and fuel. So the final amount of $21K isn't actually touched. That money just goes into savings. The maintenance cost just comes out of the designated financial bucket.

Even if I didn't operate things that way and used the savings to finance the maintenance and repair fund, and even if I sent the vehicle out to a shop to have the work done each time there is no way in the world I'm going to burn through $21,000 trying to maintain my cars.

So when it came time to buying a new car, the parts availability & ease of repair played just as important of a factor as it's safety. Resale value? I plan on keeping it for 10 years, who cares? The value will bottom-out by that time anyway. I'm not worried about depreciation since I'm not going to sell until it hits rock bottom. Otherwise if for some strange reason I can't get parts, I'm stripping the Focus out, installing a Ford Control Pack and converting it into a track toy. But I'll certainly have gotten my money's worth by then.



The one positive I can factor in from always having the newest cars is safety. While working in the crash industry, I knew exactly how unsafe my paid for 2000 accord was vs a brand new accord.

That is also a fantastic point as well, yes. Safety innovation is in fact a very valid concern and can certainly justify outright replacing a vehicle. That's a scenario I wouldn't question, other than overpaying for the replacement vehicle. Which using a prior example, Chrysler's aged vehicle platforms come to mind. When purchasing a car, safety should be a concern one should research. Which as a quick aside, despite the videos you've seen, apparently the DMC-12's telemetry data from it's crash test proved it did much better than other vehicles of the time.



I enjoy the cut of Robert's jib.

Preach on, brother!

Appreciate it! Working for so many years in the hotels in Vegas taught me one thing: Rich people don't get rich by recklessly spending money. They are some of the worst cheapskates I've ever met in my life (#CES). Simply put: They have money because they don't part with it easily. It's the debt ridden that toss cash around simply to show-off.



... are my two best friends! ;)

Farrar, you sound like you've been at the dealership too long. I think the salesmen have been rubbing off on you!

[louielouie2000]

Not all leases are created equal. Like others have pointed out, by leasing, you are essentially paying for the depreciation of the vehicle. Hence, cars with high resale values tend to come with very affordable leases; the payments are often half or less of what it would be on a traditional 5 or 6 year loan for the same car. Mileage is also negotiable on all leases- most start with 10,000 miles per year, and if you wish to add to your yearly mileage allotment, your payment will increase (depending on the lease, sometimes it's very little). Mileage overages also vary lease to lease. I've seen from 10-50 cents per mile. The trick to not getting hosed by leasing is to put no money down (that's essentially burning money), get a yearly mileage that will work for your lifestyle, lease from a brand with very high resale values, and make sure your mileage penalties are reasonable. Also, many leases now offer free maintenance during the course of your term. Scheduled maintenance on modern cars can be exorbitant- I just dropped $700 on the 30,000 mile service for my 3 year old Subaru, and as far as modern cars go, it's exceedingly analog. Not performing maintenance is another way you can be penalized big time when you turn in a car. Keep in mind your credit score can also affect your monthly payment, too.

So in the best case scenario by leasing you always have a brand new car with a full warranty, with the latest safety equipment for you and your family, free maintenance, for pennies on the dollar compared to a traditional car note. The bad is you will always have a car payment, and many leases are designed to stack the odds against the leasee, eroding the incentive to lease in the first place.

[Farrar]

Louie: Thanks for the advice! :) "No money down" is easy, since I don't have any money to put down. :P I just hope I can keep the PT running until I can get a full-time job again. I don't think anyone will want to lease a vehicle to someone who's only working 20 hours a week...

Bill: So do you think this (https://lafayette.craigslist.org/cto/5692133248.html) is a good deal? It's hours from where I live and it "shakes around 50," but for $600 I may consider it as a stopgap for when my Chrysler spends another four weeks in the shop... :P [Edit: Scratch that - it's a manual transmission. No can do! LOL]

[content22207_2]

Bill: So do you think this (https://lafayette.craigslist.org/cto/5692133248.html) is a good deal?

If you ever are serious about buying a vintage truck, I recommend using your North Carolina connections and shopping up here. It's simple demographics: with 11 million people, North Carolina just has more trucks on Craigslist. Contrast with Virginia (8 million, half of which live in Northern Virginia) and South Carolina (5 million) is stark. Louisiana (4.5 million) would be similar.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[content22207_2]

If you ever are serious about buying a vintage truck, I recommend using your North Carolina connections and shopping up here.

Example: When I drove the service truck from your parents' house I decided I couldn't abide the 3 speed granny transmission for road trips and promptly searched Craigslist for a truck with an overdrive to donate. I had many to choose from, but decided on a $500 truck in Wilmington. Less than a week later it was sitting in my driveway donating parts not only to the service truck (that was the source of its chrome bumper), but also to the Brown Truck. Everything swapped out went onto the Green Truck, which now resides in DC.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[DMCVegas]

Example: When I drove the service truck from your parents' house I decided I couldn't abide the 3 speed granny transmission for road trips and promptly searched Craigslist...

http://img.memefact.com/images/memecrunch.com/meme/19NE3/who-tf-you-talking-to/image.png

You keep replying to your own posts, and then continue to reply to yourself in the third person. Who are you trying to talk to?

[content22207_2]

Connect the dots. I advised Farrar to shop in North Carolina for a truck (he has family up here). Then I gave him an example: a "parts truck" (after all the swapping was finished that truck was still imminently usable and remains in service to this day) found within a day or so of driving my recently purchased service truck back from Farrar's parents' house.

At any given time there are hundreds of vintage Ford trucks on North Carolina Craigslist. I have to assume a similar number of Chevy/GMC and Dodges are out there (I've only ever searched for Fords). Since Farrar has family up here, he'd be crazy not to shop this large source of potential vehicles.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[DMCVegas]

Ahh, I see. You're just trying to artificially fluff up your own post count by dividing your reply among various posts rather than editing them after the fact like everyone else does, because they use proper Netiquette.

Gotcha.

[content22207_2]

Grow up.

I gave Farrar a piece of advice. Then I gave him an example to illustrate that advice.

Admittedly I didn't drone on and on in a 500 word essay as you are wont to do, which I guess is your idea of "netiquette" (no offense, but your posts make my eyes glaze over after the first 10 minutes).

Bill Robertson
#5939

[Farrar]

Bill made a post addressing me. He then added information to the original post, referencing the previous post to make certain that the context would be understood. I don't see the problem. :confused:

Anyway, I doubt I will be buying any sub-$1,000 vehicle any time soon. With luck, I'll be able to drive the Chrysler until next summer or until it hits 125,000 miles, at which point I will drop it like a hot potato and lease something that I don't care about keeping. Only reason to buy a cheap beater would be as a stopgap. Kind of amazing what people want for those vintage F-150s, though -- I saw one for sale that doesn't even start and has a door about to rust off of its hinges, and the owner still wants $1,200 for it. Well, maybe someone will bite. Not me, though.

[content22207_2]

Bill made a post addressing me. He then added information to the original post, referencing the previous post to make certain that the context would be understood. I don't see the problem. :confused:

15 minutes apart. Tamir's forum has a limited time window to edit posts. I had no choice but to give the example in a separate post.

I even prefaced the post in question with the word "Example". That alone should be patently obvious the post is an example for the preceding post. Perhaps next time I will preface the post "WARNING: THIS IS AN EXAMPLE THAT ILLUSTRATES A POINT IN THE PREVIOUS POST"

Bill Robertson
#5939

[Farrar]

I got my car back from the dealership (or, as my friend calls it, "stealership") yesterday. It runs and drives, but the "check engine" light is still on.

It looks like whatever monkey was assigned to repair my vehicle was too lazy to even reset the codes, or didn't actually diagnose and solve the problem like I was told they did.

Chrysler has assigned me a "Case Manager." I'll talk with her next week.

Side note: last week, my mom took her van to be worked on at her Chrysler dealer. (My family has been purchasing and having our vehicles serviced at the same dealership since the 1950s, even though it's changed hands a few times since the 1980s.) When she told the service manager there about my problems, he was shocked and amazed and said that if I hadn't already had talked with a Chrysler Case Manager I should do so right away.

I am going to recommend to Chrysler that they need more dealerships like my mom's, and fewer like mine, if they expect their company to have any kind of reputation apart from what has been indicated from the disparaging comments in this thread.

[DMCVegas]

That's no good. If the Check Engine light was on, you probably shouldn't have accepted the car back, but even I've missed that one before myself. What you can do is drive to any AutoZone, and they can connect an OBD-II Scanner to your car and tell you what the code is.

Manufacturers are cyclic at times with their cars. I'm at least 4th generation buying Fords, and I had a couple late 90's models that were just awful. I couldn't understand what all the hype was about. Fast forward a decade later, and I honestly can't believe it's the same company making these vehicles. They're just so much better all the way around. My family also had some Chryslers back in the 60's, and they were not good cars. Had some from the mid 90's though, and they were great. Now, it's back to being bad again while Ford is cranking out great vehicles in the opposite years.

:dunno:

[DMC-81]

Manufacturers are cyclic at times with their cars. I'm at least 4th generation buying Fords, and I had a couple late 90's models that were just awful. I couldn't understand what all the hype was about. Fast forward a decade later, and I honestly can't believe it's the same company making these vehicles. They're just so much better all the way around. My family also had some Chryslers back in the 60's, and they were not good cars. Had some from the mid 90's though, and they were great. Now, it's back to being bad again while Ford is cranking out great vehicles in the opposite years.

:dunno:

I agree. My Dad always bought Chryslers, but I swore I'd never buy one. However, they started to improve when Mercedes bought a controlling share in 98. I wound up buying a used Intrepid ES for my wife which was great. Powerful, smooth, and roomy, with a huge trunk. Then, the Dodge Magnum RT caught my eye when it was introduced in 2005. I took it for a test drive, and I couldn't wipe the smile off my face for about an hour. I ended up buying a 2006 2 years later. It still is my daily driver, and I wouldn't part with it. After doing some research, I found out the LX platform used the Mercedes E class chassis, suspension, transmission, ABS system, etc. The Magnum, and actually, my Camaro too, are built in Canada.

My point is, sometimes there are gems in manufacturer's offerings, and you can't assume that all models offered by them are good or bad, and to Roberts point, they go in phases, so I'm not brand loyal at all. Although Chrysler's current parent - Fiat, has global scale, they haven't invested enough in new designs for Chrysler. So, I won't buy another, but I might buy a Benz.

[David T]

Buying outright, leasing, and financing is a decision that should be based mostly on how long you intend to keep the car, what it will be used for, and your tax situation. Having a newer car vs an older car you get more safety and reliability. Especially for people that are not handy and/or have no place to do their own work. For instance, most people who rent have no place they can work on their cars, in fact, it may be specifically prohibited. I guess when the heat was put to the dealer they managed to find the part they think they need. Cross your fingers that it actually fixes the problem and it stays fixed long enough for you to sell it. When advertising it check if the extended service can be transferable to the buyer as an added bonus. Could help get you a better price. On some plans you can do it but there is a fee. Others it isn't transferable at all. Unfortunately in today's market this can now happen with just about any make car. I also worry about long-term serviceability on modern cars. They may age out of serviceability a LOT faster than the older ones did.

[Farrar]

Customer Assistance has basically given me end of line. I've been told that if there's a problem locating a part, they can assist with that, but I currently have a vehicle that is the victim of sloppy workmanship:

- parts in interior broken in the process of air conditioning repair
- parts in engine compartment broken in the process of computer repair
- original transmission problem not solved (check engine light on, transmission slipping, stalling)
- sloppy work (loose hose clamp) caused coolant loss and engine running hot (almost overheated, actually) on the way home from work today


Customer Assistance told me that I have to take this up with the dealership's District Manager, and - what I do NOT want to do - take the vehicle back to the same dealership for repairs.


Evidently, a Chrysler customer can receive the worst possible customer service, and Chrysler Customer Assistance can do nothing except suggest that the customer go back for more of the same.

Sixty years of loyalty from my family has just evaporated, all because of one dealership and the refusal of its corporate overlords to do anything about their abhorrent behavior and workmanship. It would be nice if Chrysler cared, but apart from saying "I'm very sorry that this issue has not been resolved," they're not willing to do squat.

I've done some reading on Chrysler. It looks like their main priority since the Fiat acquisition is to match GM's quarterly profit margin. I guess it's a sign of the times. When all you care about is the next three months, I guess you don't bother with old-fashioned things like trying to earn a customer's loyalty.

[Farrar]

"Never buy a third-party service contract."

Au contraire.

The service contract administrator and I had a nice chat this afternoon. We discussed my options:

1. I can take the car to a different Chrysler dealer in the area who can determine that the previous repair failed to correct the problem, thus saving me from paying my deductible again.

2. I can take the car to a local independent shop who can determine the true cause of the problem(s) and enter them into the system as a new claim. I would have to pay the deductible again, but it's only $300 and my chances of getting the repair done right could increase.

He also recommended that if the local shop determines that the transmission problem is mechanical and not electrical (which could be the case at ~106,400 miles) I take it to Aamco or Cottmann. The service contract administrator has fleet contracts with both of those companies and they seem extremely reputable.

There is hope.

[DMCVegas]

Honestly, chances are very good that you're screwed on this.

When mediating this entire thing, one of the things that they would ask is going to be if you gave the original dealership a chance to rectify this issue and make good on the repair. By not taking the car back to them, you're not allowing them the opportunity to make good on everything. Thus the blame actually gets shifted to you.

The other thing is that while I'm sure that the warranty rep is being honest with you, the problem is that they cannot guarantee anything. It's a risk for another mechanic now to go in and try and clean up after the original dealership who did the work first under the intention of rectifying work rather than initiating a new repair.

There could be other things that have been damaged that they do not want to be liable for.
In case any sort of legal action ever arose from this, they could be called into court.

These are things that may very well scare them enough to not want to work on the car. So while the warranty company is offering this a solution, the other thing now is to try and find a mechanic that is willing to participate.

This entire time though, you've never said what the error codes are that the vehicle is throwing. You own a DeLorean, so you're here for support for that car. There are also sites for the PT Cruiser too. You might want to join one of those and ask around to see if some seasoned owners might just be familiar with this issue enough to give you guidance on it.

As far as Chrysler is concerned, they're a company that's been desperate for decades now, and the motivation has always been to make more money. 60 years of family loyalty doesn't mean a single thing. I mean, sure loyalty is great and all, but really only in the romantic sense of it all. Most companies simply rely more upon churn as people bounce between brands than anything else. It's all cyclic. Even as loyal as I am to Ford, if they stopped making reliable vehicles that I wanted, I'd just take my business elsewhere until they did make something I like. You've got to do the same.

But in the mean time, I would start by performing your own troubleshooting. That way you at least have a good idea about what is going on.

[Farrar]

you've never said what the error codes are that the vehicle is throwing.

P1604: Loss of IPC Serial Data
P0700: Transmission Control System (MIL Request)
P0613: null


I've poked around on the PT Cruiser forums and no one there seems to have much of an idea.

[Farrar]

You know it's serious when your wife, who has extensive experience in customer service, says "Let me handle this."

To be continued...

[Dangermouse]

Personally I have found this forum to be a great help with non-DMC car issues, mainly as there are a bunch of capable DIYers and very helpful professionals.

When I had my old Chrysler Concorde (like Farrar used to have also iirc), I found the Concorde-specific forums to be worthless.

As I understand it Farrar, you have the car back, the dealership having installed the magically-found module, and now the car runs and drives, but still with a code. Yes?

If I was in your situation I would first clear the codes (having first taken a picture of each one on the code reader) in case any are hold-overs from the previous problem. Then see which ones return.

Not all parts stores will clear codes, I found - Autozone guy comes with you to the cra and reads the codes, but won't reset; Advance Auto loans you the code reader to go out to the car, so you can read and reset at will. I ended up just buying a Bosch one from O'Reilly for about $65 after a particularly tricky fault diagnosis - money well spent.

If I still had a code, I would take it to a reputable general mechanic (ask around friends and co-workers) for an independent diagnosis. Don't give hoim any background info that might sway him - just "I have an MIL - what is it and how to fix it - and see what he says.

[DMCVegas]

P1604: Loss of IPC Serial Data
P0700: Transmission Control System (MIL Request)
P0613: null


I've poked around on the PT Cruiser forums and no one there seems to have much of an idea.

So here's the thing. For lack of proper descriptions, there are consumer Error Codes, and then there are Manufacturer Level Codes. I've even heard of a 3rd tier, but I'm not so sure on that one. Your generic OBD-II scanners will give you the basic error codes, and the rest will appear as NULL or otherwise just not be detailed. You *can* purchase licenses from the Ford, GM, & Chrysler for these codes when it comes to certain readers. The cheapest I've found for that task are scanner accessories that plug into your iPhone, iPad, or Android device to interface with your car. But that's a whole different discussion.

So anyway, that's why you're getting a "null" on P0613. After doing some quick poking around, this is what seems to be the consensus about these error codes on your car:

P0700
Generic error code to direct you to the Transmission system. That's all.

P0613
Malfunction detected with Transmission PCM. Not functioning properly.

P1604
Sub-error on Transmission PCM. Specifically listed as: PCM internal dual-port RAM read/write integrity failure.


So whats wrong with your car? Other people's experiences point to your transmission computer is having problems functioning properly. Specifically it's software map and communications ability. Here are the reasons:

Potentially corrput software. PCM Requires reprogramming, NOT replacement.
Corrosion on wiring connectors which is interrupting the read/write function and causing communications issues. Clean connections and/or replace wiring.
Failed internal memory on PCM. Requires a replacement AND reprogramming from Chrysler.



Now this isn't an absolute guarantee that THIS is definitively what is wrong with your car. It is however a good starting point to know what repairs may or may not be necessary for your car, which can be leverage sometimes in getting a successful repair. Or at least in keeping costs down. Which is why I've always said that even if you don't wrench on your own car, it behooves you to have knowledge of what is occurring for those times when you encounter crooked or incompetent mechanics. Because sometimes you have to correct them.

If I were you, I'd start pulling connections and checking for corrosion on those terminals as a good place to start.

[Dangermouse]

Is the transmission computer not the magically found replaced component?

Hence, clear the codes and see which come back.

[Farrar]

Those are the codes which I have attempted to clear, but have not cleared, since I got the car back.

I have a Bluetooth OBD-II scanner and software called Torque Pro that I use on my phone to get realtime information and, in this case, pull and clear codes. Or not clear codes, as the case may be.

The codes all point to the Powertrain Control Module, which was replaced. I can see the module on the firewall. It looks like a newer unit. It's not dirty like the old one. Also, the stuff they messed up is in the area of the PCM. (loose hose clamp, loose relay) So I believe the dealership when they say that they installed a remanufactured PCM. I don't believe them when they say it took them over two weeks to locate the part.

The Case Manager at Fiat-Chrysler whom I spoke to yesterday told me that I needed to contact the District Manager. I asked for that name and number, and she said I'd have to call the dealership to get that information. Sorry, but what the hell? If you work in "Customer Assistance," why can't you look in your computer for a name and number to assist the customer? I told my wife of my experiences. She asked for the two pages of notes I've taken since this whole shitshow started in June. She then called the 24-hour Customer Service number, got a real person on the line, and refused to get off of the phone until someone had heard the entire story (reading from my notes) and had promised to do something about it. She's awaiting a phone call from the District Manager. If she doesn't hear from the District Manager this morning, she will call the Regional Manager. If the Regional Manager doesn't call before 4:30pm, she has promised to go to the dealership and stand at the front desk until someone is helpful.

I wish I had my wife's energy and optimism. I am ready to take it to a shop in my neighborhood with a good reputation (BBB accredited since 1986) and just let them deal with it - without even telling them of my previous experience, like Dermot said - just say "Hey, I've got this problem. Can you help?" But I guess I can give it one more day. Fortunately, I have coolant that I can dump into the system so I can get back and forth to work.

If Chrysler's solution is for me to take it back to the offending dealership, forget it. I'll use the local shop for sure.

I miss my DeLorean.

[DMCVegas]

Those are the codes which I have attempted to clear, but have not cleared, since I got the car back.

I have a Bluetooth OBD-II scanner and software called Torque Pro that I use on my phone to get realtime information and, in this case, pull and clear codes. Or not clear codes, as the case may be.

The codes all point to the Powertrain Control Module, which was replaced. I can see the module on the firewall. It looks like a newer unit. It's not dirty like the old one. Also, the stuff they messed up is in the area of the PCM. (loose hose clamp, loose relay) So I believe the dealership when they say that they installed a remanufactured PCM. I don't believe them when they say it took them over two weeks to locate the part.

Again, pull those connections and check for corrosion. You might also want to follow them and check for corrosion on the other ends of the harnesses as well.

Being clean doesn't mean squat either unless you've verified serial numbers. Back when I worked for the cable company, one of the Residential field technicians had a difficult customer who swore up and down that the color on his TV was screwed up because of a bad cable box. No matter how hard the technician tried to convince the customer, they wouldn't hear it. They absolutely demanded that he swap out the cable box. So the tech begrudgingly said he would, and that he'd call into dispatch to get it taken care of. Instead he went back into his van where he wiped down the old box & blew out all the dust inside with some compressed air. Then he put it into a new plastic bag with a welcome kit in it and walked back in the customer's house where he tore open the other end of the bag and set the box back up. The customer then gloated over him about how much better the colors were now, and about how HE was right! So the tech pretended to sheepishly apologize and drove off with a customer who was happy because he got want he wanted: the illusion of being in control.

So believe me when I say that a clean box doesn't mean squat. I'm not trying to accuse the dealership here at all, just advising you to be leery.



The Case Manager at Fiat-Chrysler whom I spoke to yesterday told me that I needed to contact the District Manager. I asked for that name and number, and she said I'd have to call the dealership to get that information.

Are you shitting me?! Here, have fun:

New Orleans Zone Office
Customer Relations Manager
Chrysler Corporation
One Galleria Boulevard
Metairie, LA 70001-2082
(504) 832-4800



If she doesn't hear from the District Manager this morning, she will call the Regional Manager.

Records indicate that might just be a guy by the name of Michael Schmidt: Chrysler Service & Parts Marketing. Appears to live/work in Orlando though. I have found though that bothering even the wrong person will allow you to at least get some information out of them.



If the Regional Manager doesn't call before 4:30pm, she has promised to go to the dealership and stand at the front desk until someone is helpful.

And that is precisely what they're hoping. You going to the dealership gets them out of their hair. Plus the dealer is hoping that you come back because they can grind you until you finally cave-in and buy another car from them. Which is what they wanted in the first place. In any case, you're going to give up. When you do, it'll be listed as a "successful resolutuion" because you stopped complaining. Welcome to the wonderful world of customer service metrics.



I wish I had my wife's energy and optimism. I am ready to take it to a shop in my neighborhood with a good reputation (BBB accredited since 1986) and just let them deal with it

Sorry, but the BBB is useless. It's pretty much just Yelp before the Internet. No one pays attention to it.



If Chrysler's solution is for me to take it back to the offending dealership, forget it. I'll use the local shop for sure.

Again, that is what FCA's solution to all of this is going to be.



I miss my DeLorean.

Right? Who know that support for an orphaned car would be far easier than a modern one. Perhaps this is a sign you should make it into a daily driver...

[Farrar]

Well, the engine overheated before I could even get to work today. I guess the leak is past the overflow bottle. On advice from FCA, I had it towed back to the same dealership.

My case has been "escalated" by Chrysler (hooray for corporate lingo -- so my car is at the top of a moving staircase?). If I don't get this repaired for free, I am raising hell and so is my wife. I have given a summary of my experiences to a friend of mine who is a journalist, and she's sending it to every business reporter she knows. (I was sure to include the part where the tow truck driver told me how he keeps towing the same vehicles to Bergeron for repair every few weeks: "You goin' to Bergeron? I bet you were just there, weren't ya? I've lost count of how many customers I've towed there, and then towed 'em back again a couple weeks later...")

I hate modern cars.

Edit: Robert, thanks for the info. I am making a note of those names, numbers, and locations.

[Farrar]

the dealer is hoping that you come back because they can grind you until you finally cave-in and buy another car from them.

Joke's on them: I didn't buy this car from them, and I'm not buying another Chrysler product as long as I live.

I'm not going to give up. I'm going to give them hell.

[DMCVegas]

No worries, man. You're very welcome for the information. In fact, in case you have any more problems, this should be the line to McLean Bergeron: 504.293.5268

Along with the written documentation, be sure you have taken photos along the way too. Also, maintenance records wouldn't hurt either. I've seen VW screw people over without those records.

Threats sometimes are counterproductive. If you're never going to buy another Chrysler, keep that under your hat for now. The best thing to do is to simply be a pain in everyone's ass until this gets fixed. If there are charges, leave that up to your warranty company to sort out and negotiate. But above all, be a pain in the ass to place the pressure onto the dealership's service department so that the only option they have to finally get you to leave them alone is to simply fix your car and get you out of there.

Otherwise, don't be upset with modern cars. It's like a conversation I had with my father in-law who was waxing nostalgic about how much "simpler" they used to be. He had an old 60's car back when he and his wife got married. We compared that to a late 90's truck he had. The brands are honestly not relevant. The most he ever had go wrong with that truck was a bad fuel pump, and when it did he got error codes that pointed him in that direction to tell him what part was bad. So I helped him replace the pump and clear the codes one day in the driveway. As before and up until he traded that truck in, it started up every morning and ran fine. Unlike the old car that required him to spray wire drier inside the distributor almost every winter morning to get the thing started. Then he started thinking back on the cars they'd owned in between and how the newer they were, the less problems they had, and the easier they were to fix. So he came away with a different point of view on that one.

Modern cars are great. It's just that you still need to have some old fashioned troubleshooting skills to work on them, and a couple of extra electronic tools now as well.

Plug in a PCM and let the computer automatically tune the engine for timing and emissions? Yes please! I'll take that any day. But the computer still can't do ALL of the troubleshooting work for you.

[DMCMW Dave]

Otherwise, don't be upset with modern cars. It's like a conversation I had with my father in-law who was waxing nostalgic about how much "simpler" they used to be. He had an old 60's car back when he and his wife got married. We compared that to a late 90's truck he had. The brands are honestly not relevant. The most he ever had go wrong with that truck was a bad fuel pump, and when it did he got error codes that pointed him in that direction to tell him what part was bad. So I helped him replace the pump and clear the codes one day in the driveway. As before and up until he traded that truck in, it started up every morning and ran fine. Unlike the old car that required him to spray wire drier inside the distributor almost every winter morning to get the thing started. Then he started thinking back on the cars they'd owned in between and how the newer they were, the less problems they had, and the easier they were to fix. So he came away with a different point of view on that one.

Modern cars are great. It's just that you still need to have some old fashioned troubleshooting skills to work on them, and a couple of extra electronic tools now as well.
.

I really agree with this. I'm old enough to recall cars (I owned a few) from the 60s. Yeah, they were simple but:
Everything leaked oil all the time.
Tires every 12K (before radial tires)
Tuneup (plugs, points etc) every 12K miles.
5 years and the floorboards would rot through.
Repack the wheel bearings every couple of years.
Valve guides gone at 80 K miles
It was a huge deal if a car hit 100K miles before being junked. Which is why speedometers only got to 99,999 miles. The idea of driving a car over 200K miles was ludicrous. Volvo use to brag that their cars would last 11 years. That's like now bragging that your 2005 car is still running.

Yes -- you could fix everything with a pretty basic tool set, but everything broke all the time.

On a modern car, people get upset if it needs anything other than brakes and tires before 100K. What seems to take most modern cars off the road is some non-diagnosable failure in the electronics.

[Farrar]

The thing which prevents me from working on my modern vehicles is the fact that the engine compartment is basically like a fruitcake, or you might say a casserole, made with car parts. Unless you have arms like Stretch Armstrong and hands the size of a female gymnast, half of the time you can't even reach what needs to be inspected, repaired, or replaced. At least that's my experience, but I admit that I have short arms and big hands. Anyway, compared to older vehicles everything is so tightly crammed together that it's hard to see anything much less reach it. By the time I get my hand crammed into where it needs to be, I can barely move my hand without dropping the tool, and I'm operating blind anyway. Just changing the coolant bottle last year was an ordeal that involved removing some fasteners from above, raising the car, removing fasteners from below, then pulling the bottle out from above, putting one fastener in from below, using that as the pivot to secure the bottle, then installing and tightening the fasteners above before going back underneath the car to fasten the one below.

I've got a .pdf copy of the official Chrysler workshop manual for this car. You should see some of the procedures in it -- sheer insanity.

Anyway, thanks all for your patience and advice. If you were here, I'd buy you all a drink.

[David T]

I really agree with this. I'm old enough to recall cars (I owned a few) from the 60s. Yeah, they were simple but:
Everything leaked oil all the time.
Tires every 12K (before radial tires)
Tuneup (plugs, points etc) every 12K miles.
5 years and the floorboards would rot through.
Repack the wheel bearings every couple of years.
Valve guides gone at 80 K miles
It was a huge deal if a car hit 100K miles before being junked. Which is why speedometers only got to 99,999 miles. The idea of driving a car over 200K miles was ludicrous. Volvo use to brag that their cars would last 11 years. That's like now bragging that your 2005 car is still running.

Yes -- you could fix everything with a pretty basic tool set, but everything broke all the time.

On a modern car, people get upset if it needs anything other than brakes and tires before 100K. What seems to take most modern cars off the road is some non-diagnosable failure in the electronics.

Modern cars are so much better in so many ways BUT! Get it wet to the floorboards and it is totaled. One big hit or an extraction and it is done. Rarely, they get a problem so hard to fix it gets junked because it can cost so much to diagnose a hard problem, like the one the OP has. My biggest worry about new cars is who will service the complex electronics when the dealers orphan them? And it is not just the cars themselves, it is also the complicated and expensive service equipment. Don't forget all of the training, skill and experience necessary to work on them too. We see that happening already in the Lotus world. The newer and more complicated the car the harder it is to maintain it's serviceability. The company that built and serviced the scanners is gone. Lotus never made the code for the computers public. No one can flash the ECU's but Lotus and they are going to stop doing it eventually. Just look at what we have to do to keep the simple governors going for our automatic transmissions. Multiply that 100X and you start to appreciate the future problems. I can still remember on the old cars with babbited bearings, you would drop the pan every 10,000 miles and reshim the bearings. Of course the roads were not like today so it took a long time to put 10,000 miles on a car! back in the 50's and 60"s when you picked up a new car you would make up a list of over a dozen items for the dealer to fix when you took it back in a month. You were lucky if 1/2 of them got fixed right, some never got fixed!

[content22207_2]

sheer insanity

Car companies and dealerships have one chance to make money -- initial sale off the showroom floor. Cars are made to be sold, not worked on after the sale. Unfortunately what makes the most sense in a factory assembly sequence can be sheer madness in your own driveway.

Remember also that engines are dropped into vehicles on the assembly line as ready made units. All that remains is to connect them to the carbody. Anyone who has worked on a PRV out of the car versus in place is keenly aware of how much easier access is.

Also throw in a healthy dose of planned obsolescence. Car companies and dealers can't survive on vehicles that remain in service for a decade or two -- they need to sell replacement vehicles off the showroom floor.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[DMCVegas]

The thing which prevents me from working on my modern vehicles is the fact that the engine compartment is basically like a fruitcake, or you might say a casserole, made with car parts. Unless you have arms like Stretch Armstrong and hands the size of a female gymnast, half of the time you can't even reach what needs to be inspected, repaired, or replaced. At least that's my experience, but I admit that I have short arms and big hands. Anyway, compared to older vehicles everything is so tightly crammed together that it's hard to see anything much less reach it. By the time I get my hand crammed into where it needs to be, I can barely move my hand without dropping the tool, and I'm operating blind anyway. Just changing the coolant bottle last year was an ordeal that involved removing some fasteners from above, raising the car, removing fasteners from below, then pulling the bottle out from above, putting one fastener in from below, using that as the pivot to secure the bottle, then installing and tightening the fasteners above before going back underneath the car to fasten the one below.

I've got a .pdf copy of the official Chrysler workshop manual for this car. You should see some of the procedures in it -- sheer insanity.

Anyway, thanks all for your patience and advice. If you were here, I'd buy you all a drink.

Nope. The problem with it is that it's a Chrysler. I'm not trying to bash the brand, but damn, that company is king of dumb designs. Only cars I've ever seen where you have to remove an entire hood to get to the spark plugs, or my absolute favorite: Pulling the front tire to replace the battery.

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/IQF16DjM5As/hqdefault.jpg

I'm used to working on cramped spaces, but popping the hood to inspect if the engine is something I can easily work on has always been a priority for me when buying a car.

If you want something big with lots of space, buy a truck. But hey, there are always more difficult cars to work on. Trust me.



Modern cars are so much better in so many ways BUT! Get it wet to the floorboards and it is totaled. One big hit or an extraction and it is done.

Yeah, but I kinda like this whole being alive thing. They can make another car, but there is only one of me. I will gladly total a vehicle any day to save myself if need be.



Car companies and dealerships have one chance to make money -- initial sale off the showroom floor.

I'll agree with everything else you've said, save for that. There are still plenty of revenue opportunities to work on cars after the sale. That's a large part of the huge push for extended service contracts and the like. It makes money for the service department.

Then the manufacturer also makes bank on the sales of tools, printed materials, and software updates to the Service Center.

OBD-II is a great tool to assist with diagnosing and repairing vehicles. But it also gets abused as well. From the unreadable error codes for consumers, to outright locking non-factory authorized mechanics out. Hardware repairs used to be easy. Take our Auto Trans Computers for example. If you blow the capacitors inside you can easily desolder them and then solder in good components to get it back to running proper again. Can't do that nowadays since manufacturers started spraying the backs of their circuitboards in epoxy that will destroy the board if you try and remove it.

It gets even worse now with John Deere and General Motors arguing that the software contained in their drivetrain control systems, and even their infotainment systems are Intellectual Property that are the sole ownership of the manufacturer. Thus regular consumers are forbidden from accessing the information contained within these devices or modifying the systems in any way because doing so violates the copyright of said manufacturer.

All so they can continue to make money off those OEM parts and authorized service repairs.

[content22207_2]

There are still plenty of revenue opportunities to work on cars after the sale.

Pocket change. A company the size of Ford or GM can't survive on aftermarket sales and service.

As DeLorean Motor Company discovered, showroom sales support the company. If you can't sell cars out the door, the company will very quickly go out of business (half a year in DMC's case).

Bill Robertson
#5939

[Farrar]

[Chrysler] is king of dumb designs.

I'll give you that: I had to take the front right wheel off to change the battery in my '98 Concorde.

To change the alternator in the PT Cruiser you have to disconnect the passenger side drive axle. I am not making this up:

45551

Notice they still call it a "generator" in the shop manual. How quaint.

Moving on -- I got a phone call from the dealership this morning at 8am. (I guess that's what "escalation" gets you - actual follow-up, as opposed to the usual radio silence.) The leak & overheat was caused by a "failed hose" that supplies coolant to the turbocharger. It's $305 plus tax and, according to the service advisor "it's a special hose," and will take "three to five days" to get the part.

(I am beginning to think that Bergeron doesn't actually stock any parts at all apart from oil filters, despite the fact that their service department takes up half a city block.)

As for the PCM, he told me that "it's not functioning correctly" (DUH.) and it's covered under their standard parts & labor warranty, but they have to diagnose it first. I told them that the third code I pulled indicated a read/write failure and they should try re-programming the PCM. His response was "Okay."

$305 for a formed rubber hose? Yeah, I think there's plenty of opportunity to make money repairing cars -- not in the labor, but in the parts.

[content22207_2]

By your own admission it's going to take 3-5 days to get that hose. Fiat does not survive on $305 a week.

Nobody denies car companies make money on a variety of fronts. But their bread and butter is vehicle manufacturing. Everything else is ancillary (dealer parts are just manufacturing parts doled out piecemeal).

GM and Chrysler didn't go to the government with hats in their hands because people weren't buying repair parts.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[Farrar]

By your own admission it's going to take 3-5 days to get that hose.

To be fair, it seems their parts location and transport system consists of carrier pigeons and the last remaining members of the Pony Express.


Nobody denies car companies make money on a variety of fronts. But their bread and butter is vehicle manufacturing. Everything else is ancillary (dealer parts are just manufacturing parts doled out piecemeal).

Then it would logically follow that I will not to take my car back to a dealership for repair work. If I take it to a business that only performs repair and maintenance, then they're more likely to want to earn my business as a customer for repair and maintenance. Not that I was planning on taking my car back to the dealership anyway. The people who work there seem to be a waste of DNA.

[content22207_2]

If you all want to bitch and complain about price markups, don't look at factory parts -- look at what parts houses charge independent mechanics. I have a commercial account at Autozone, and while my volume of purchases isn't anywhere near enough to get the big discounts, it has given me a peek behind the curtain. Large volume mechanics are buying things like brake pads for $5 a set and car batteries for $30.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[Dangermouse]

I'll give you that: I had to take the front right wheel off to change the battery in my '98 Concorde.

I did the same on my 99. However after a bit of reflection I think it is actually a quite good bit of design. My OEM battery lasted almost 8 years, so why make something you only access about once a decade instantly accessible?

Now, whether they used the space freed up under the hood efficiently is another question :)

[DMCVegas]

I'll give you that: I had to take the front right wheel off to change the battery in my '98 Concorde.

To change the alternator in the PT Cruiser you have to disconnect the passenger side drive axle. I am not making this up:

Doesn't surprise me in the least.



Moving on -- I got a phone call from the dealership this morning at 8am. (I guess that's what "escalation" gets you - actual follow-up, as opposed to the usual radio silence.) The leak & overheat was caused by a "failed hose" that supplies coolant to the turbocharger. It's $305 plus tax and, according to the service advisor "it's a special hose," and will take "three to five days" to get the part.

$305. For a single hose. Congratulations to Chrysler for finally making Jaguars economical to own!



(I am beginning to think that Bergeron doesn't actually stock any parts at all apart from oil filters, despite the fact that their service department takes up half a city block.)

It depends, man. Some vehicles thanks to limited/unique drivetrain configurations may as a result carry some very unique parts. Not to mention that they haven't made this car in 6 years, and yours is over 10 years old. My favorite example of this was the hardest vehicle I've ever had to get parts for, which ironically enough was also a Chrysler. The 1996 Dodge Dakota Sport.

I've owned 2 Dakota sports; a '95 and a'96. The problem was that '95 was the final year of production for the Chrysler 2.5L OHV engine, but the last year for the first gen Dakota body style was '96. So that left Chrysler in a lull on that year on what to do for their 4-Cylinder sport. The solution was to simply toss the AMC 2.5L OHV engine from the Jeep into the truck a year early and eat it on the tooling costs. This makes things really fun.

The problem here was that the the truck was designed for the OHC engine with had all of it's ports on one side, and save for the exhaust manifold, everything else was compltely reversed. I'm not joking. Heater hoses, A/C Lines, radiator hoses, intake tubes, all of it had to crisscross back and forth across the engine bay. Most of the time your regular parts shops like AutoZone didn't even have the correct parts listed, and when the dealership did for all those custom hoses, they were expensive like your hose as well.



As for the PCM, he told me that "it's not functioning correctly" (DUH.) and it's covered under their standard parts & labor warranty, but they have to diagnose it first. I told them that the third code I pulled indicated a read/write failure and they should try re-programming the PCM. His response was "Okay."

Make sure that before you leave, you always get a copy of the the customer statement notes. Sometimes dealers get lazy, and don't put the correct notes in to save time. Sometimes it's also done on purpose as to obfuscate things to prevent a buy-back for a "lemon law". It probably won't apply here with your car, but in the future with other cars you are going to want these documents. If the dealer gets 3 chances to fix an issue, you basically need documentation that proves they were actually working on the issue.

There is a huge difference between "My car overheated and left me stranded when all of the coolant poured out. Now has a strange noise and less power." versus the Service Advisor writing "C/S engine low on coolant." You complain the car overheated, but then you signed documents only stating that the engine was low on coolant. Doesn't matter what the undocumented conversation you and anyone there had, it wasn't recorded. Just for food for thought going forward.



Pocket change. A company the size of Ford or GM can't survive on aftermarket sales and service.

As DeLorean Motor Company discovered, showroom sales support the company. If you can't sell cars out the door, the company will very quickly go out of business (half a year in DMC's case).

Bill Robertson
#5939

The service department isn't there to solely benefit the manufacturer. It's there to supplement the dealership's revenue. DMC not selling cars was due in large part to a lack of proper consumer financing (which is a completely different story), but if you want to talk how this relates to DeLorean, a fantastic example would be in the book, On a Clear Day... when JZD proposed that Pontiac could potentially franchise out factory authorized repair centers to independent shops, the Dealers flipped out and protested.

Manufacturers manufacture cars. Dealerships sell and repair them. Different business models with different revenue streams for profitability. GM and Chrysler didn't go to the government asking for a bailout because of weak, post-sale service businesses, no. But you can be sure that all those closed dealerships who saw their franchises revoked certainly saw profits in their service departments. Hence all the lawsuits that followed.

[Farrar]

Whatever happens, I'm sure I will enjoy the satisfaction of knowing that my turbocharger will be nice and cool, thanks to the very special hose made of gold-infused unicorn leather. I can't wait for Pony Express to deliver it.

[mr_maxime]

In my experience older cars don't necessarily mean easier to work on or more space. It often falls on the design of the car. The cabin air filter in my 2000 accord took over an hour of work and busted knuckles because a of stupid design where there was a brace in front of the filter that could not be removed. The cabin air filter in my dad's 2004 accord took about 10 mins. Changing out the radiator in my accord took about an hour. I'm fairly certain it will take longer on my delorean. Think about how much easier it is to change a headlight bulb on a modern car vs the delorean.

[Farrar]

At 8am on Friday, August 19, I received a phone call from Craig at Bergeron. He told me that the coolant leak was caused by a failed hose that supplies coolant to the turbocharger. He told me that it is “a special hose” and it will take “three to five days” to get the part. Cost of repair is $305 plus tax. He told me that the “PCM is not functioning properly,” and it is covered by warranty but they will need time to diagnose it.



At 12:15pm on Wednesday, August 24, I called Craig at Bergeron. I asked if the coolant hose had arrived, since it had been five days since he told me it would take three to five days to get the part. He told me that it had not arrived on this morning’s shipment, but maybe it would arrive in this afternoon’s shipment. I then asked if they had had any luck with the PCM. He told me that was the part he was talking about. I reminded him that he told me they had ordered a cooling hose. He told me that he needed to access his computer and would call me back in a few minutes.


At 1pm on Wednesday, August 24, Craig at Bergeron had not returned my call. I called my new case manager, Amber, and left a message.


At 1:10pm on Wednesday, August 24, Craig at Bergeron returned my call. He informed me that both parts were backordered. I asked for the exact part numbers.

Coolant hose (tube): P/N 4884283AC “Tube – turbo water return.”
PCM: P/N R5033441AE "MODULE. Remanufactured. Powertrain Control. Generic."


I located both of these parts in stock at factorychryslerparts.com, which is operated by Cherokee Chrysler, LLC, an authorized Chrysler Group dealer.

As of 2:15pm Wednesday, August 24, I am still waiting for the Chrysler case manager to return my call.

According to Dave Swingle, this dealership shows all of the classic signs of chronic understaffing. I agree. The service department seems to be incompetent. The question is why? Incompetence means they're unable to do their job correctly. I see two reasons for this: they don't have the skill, or they don't have the time. If they don't have the time, that's the fault of management for not hiring enough staff to keep up with the workload. If they don't have the skill, that's also the fault of management for not hiring competent people. If the first possibility has been the case for a while, then it can lead to the second: the people who can get jobs elsewhere do so, and those who remain are simply incapable of performing their duties to any satisfaction.

Regardless of the reasons, the service department at Bergeron is hopelessly incompetent. I have a very long fuse, and it takes a lot to make me angry. Now I am angry, and the next time I speak to my case manager I will not get off of the phone until I have a detailed plan of action to get my car back. I am sick to death of incompetence. There's simply no excuse for it.

[krs09]

By your own admission it's going to take 3-5 days to get that hose. Fiat does not survive on $305 a week.

Nobody denies car companies make money on a variety of fronts. But their bread and butter is vehicle manufacturing. Everything else is ancillary (dealer parts are just manufacturing parts doled out piecemeal).

GM and Chrysler didn't go to the government with hats in their hands because people weren't buying repair parts.

Bill Robertson
#5939

At least at my shop.. most of the revenue comes from the service end. Sales make very little on cars sold (few hundred). This is why a lot of dealers include covered maintenance for the first few years/miles. Its all for customer retention, we gotta have them come back. But no matter how cheap the services can be customers wont come back if the service sucks.

[Farrar]

As a last resort I decided to just go ahead and put the entire story out on the Internet for all to see (https://plus.google.com/117986898204935686546/posts/fQGFQddnPUf). I gave the link to Chrysler and told them that I will keep the post public until the situation has been resolved to my satisfaction.

Either the people I have spoken to are unable to help, or they are unwilling to help. I find neither possbility satisfactory. I can't think of anything else to do now except make a stink about it.

[David T]

As a last resort I decided to just go ahead and put the entire story out on the Internet for all to see (https://plus.google.com/117986898204935686546/posts/fQGFQddnPUf). I gave the link to Chrysler and told them that I will keep the post public until the situation has been resolved to my satisfaction.

Either the people I have spoken to are unable to help, or they are unwilling to help. I find neither possbility satisfactory. I can't think of anything else to do now except make a stink about it.

Check and see if, in your area, there is a TV or news station that does these kinds of stories. In the NY area several TV stations have reporters who investigate consumer complaints and most of the time they successfully shame companies into doing the right thing because of the adverse publicity. The other possibility is to try to go higher up the chain with Chrysler until you find someone who can help. Dealers and their service departments can only do so much.

[sdg3205]

Its nice to see Chrysler was humbled by the bailout.

Not.

My guess is they're calling your bluff and hoping you and your car will disappear, although I don't know how they figure that would happen. Mind you, they don't seem to be the sharpest knives in the drawer.

Sorry to hear you're having to deal with this BS. Bad customer service is infuriating. If you think customer service in the US is bad, you should experience Canada some time. It would blow your mind. I spend a lot of time in Washington state and Arizona and I've travelled though most of the other eastern and western states. I have yet to experience customer service as bad as we have here at home. At Canadian Tire, which is ranked the WORST store in Canada for customer experience, the employees (if you're lucky enough to find one) literally turn around and walk the other way so they don't have to help you. They're chronically out of stock, understaffed, unfriendly and unqualified. Thats just one company. I could tell you stories about three different Chrysler dealerships up here too. The problem is Canadians don't hold feet to the fire the same way americans do. We just bend over and take it. One till open and 15 people in line? We just stew quietly while 3 staffers hangout at customer service while 4 other tills remain closed.

[DMCVegas]

My guess is they're calling your bluff and hoping you and your car will disappear, although I don't know how they figure that would happen.

Bingo!

They really don't care. Like I said before, it was all to just scare Farrar into buying a new car. They wouldn't pull this routine on people if it didn't work.

The worst part is where this is now. There is absolutely no motivation for the dealer to try and fix this car. If this was a trade-in, they'd want it repaired so they could send it out to auction ASAP to get their money back. But a repeat repair? They're loosing money. And depending upon how vindictive they are about being bothered by FCA, they may even just drag the repair out on purpose. Even FCA might not have any motivation here to help either. Lots of paperwork to fill out, and on top of that they're not going to make any money off of this either. It's not like Farrar is loyal to Chrysler any more, so that's a future sale gone, and thus no incentive exists on the company's part.

I'm busy right now with paperwork for school, and other articles for DeLorean World right now, otherwise I'd hit you up for the information and post it over on Oppo. But do you have any pictures to go with your story?

[Farrar]

Canadians don't hold feet to the fire the same way americans do. We just bend over and take it.


do you have any pictures to go with your story?

No. Because apparently I'm Canadian.

My wife keeps telling me "You're being too nice!" Yesterday I was very angry, but I still kept my cool. She says it's time for me to yell and scream and tell everyone that what they're doing is not good enough. Today may be that day: the case manager I talked with on Monday said she'd call me back with info about a rental or loaner car. Guess what. She forgot to check on a rental or loaner. What's more, it seems that even she - the case manager - has to go through this incompetent service department at Bergeron Auto. I told her if she can't give me a straight answer and actually DO something to HELP me, I'm going as far over her head as I possibly can when we speak today. So far all she's been able to tell me is "I'll look into the possibility of..." and I told her that's not good enough. If I wanted to look into possibilities, I'd use a Magic Eight Ball. I want something done - definitively. This case manager (my fourth, by the way) is supposed to call me back today. If she doesn't, I'll start spitting rivets.

Edit: I have also given the full version of my story to a local TV news channel's "on your side" investigative team. They don't do "consumer action" stuff like in the old days, but perhaps if they see enough complaints about this dealership's service department they'll actually investigate it from a "dirty business" standpoint.

[DMCVegas]

My wife keeps telling me "You're being too nice!"

I couldn't tell you whether or not that's true. Different people respond differently to stress, so you've got to know how to adapt to their needs in order to coach them along to get them to do what you want them to do. It all depends upon their desires. Sometimes you tap into what brings an individual pleasure such as people that want to genuinely do good. Those are the ones you appeal to by convincing them that helping you is going to satisfy their desire to do good. Sometimes to get what you want you've instead got to find a fear to exploit. Even then you've got to figure out what that fear is, for example: disappointing you or having negative attention drawn to themselves. Sometimes it's a mixture of all the above and you've got to know how to apply it all.

The problem now is looking like this is almost too far gone since there is no real reward left to offer. So the only thing you've got left is fear. So at this point what you need to do is become irritating. Bother them everyday, multiple times a day. Both the dealership as well as the case managers. And I do mean that in the plural sense to bother every single person you've been in contact with on this. Start getting their names, and looking them up online to find alternate phone numbers and e-mail addresses. Hell, even go onto LinkedIn to find connections to their coworkers and supervisors. Then start reaching out to those people for a resolution to this. Draw as much negative attention as possible to the caseworkers and dealership staff so that their peers also put pressure on them to get this fixed.

Or to put it in more simpler terms, they are in your debt, and you've got to become a bill collector to harass them into paying up. Make it clear that you've got something to trade: a repaired car & appropriate compensation in exchange for peace and quiet.

They're trying to wear you down so that you go away. So in return you've got to create enough friction to start a fire.



Edit: I have also given the full version of my story to a local TV news channel's "on your side" investigative team. They don't do "consumer action" stuff like in the old days, but perhaps if they see enough complaints about this dealership's service department they'll actually investigate it from a "dirty business" standpoint.

Maybe that helps, maybe it doesn't. The "consumer action" stuff is long gone because of the potential for lawsuits. There was even one of these consumer action shows in Vegas that was popular...until one of the businesses being investigated turned the tables. The state AG was trying to get the tire shop shut down, and then the business recorded conversations proving the investigative reporter responsible for the news segment was running a bit of a scam where she'd investigate local businesses based on viewer tips, and then construct both a scathing business report and then a public relations recovery portfolio through her boyfriend's PR firm. It's also not going to work out well if the dealership also is a big advertiser with the station.

The internet is really your best best nowadays. Get the story into the online community, and then let enraged netizens take over for you.

[Farrar]

I talked with McLean Bergeron today. I had not intended to, but a friend of mine posted the link to my Google Plus note to the Bergeron Auto Facebook page. McLean Bergeron responded with his phone number. He seemed more annoyed than anything else, and he hadn't read all of my notes before we spoke. He told me that he sees that I am "trying to do some damage" to their reputation with my Google Plus post. I told him that on the contrary I had not made anything public until I considered it a last resort. I began taking notes just for my own information, because it's a lot of information to keep straight. I also told him that once this situation is resolved the post will be deleted. I told him that my family has been a Chrysler family since the 1950s, and the only reason I took my car to his service department in June was because they had done an excellent job with my car when I had major service done in 2015. He told me that there's nothing he can do about backordered parts. He told me that the people working in the service department are talented and hard-working, and that this is the busiest time of year for them. I told him that I had found both of those parts online at chryslerfactoryparts.com, which according to their website is "operated by Cherokee Chrysler LLC., an authorized Chrysler Group dealer."

I explained to McLean Bergeron that I understand that sometimes parts are not available, but that I have been getting different answers from different people. I suggested that he should read all of my notes before we talk again.

Later this afternoon, I got a phone call from the service advisor at Bergeron. He told me that he had heard from Mr. Bergeron that I had found my parts on chryslerfactoryparts.com, and that that website is in fact NOT operated by an authorized Chrysler Group dealer. (I guess their website lies.) He also told me that (even though my case manager had told me that Jim the service manager told her that my parts were on the way and may arrive as soon as tomorrow) his department gets their parts from Chrysler dealers, and no Chrysler dealer anywhere in the country has a PCM for my 2006 PT Cruiser. All he can do, he said, is continue to search and hope one turns up. I asked if they had tried re-programming the PCM they'd already installed in my car. He said that is impossible, that once installed "the PCM is married to that vehicle" and must be replaced if malfunctioning.

My wife heard this telephone conversation, and even though it was after office hours she called my case manager at Chrysler, who picked up the phone. My case manager cannot explain to us why a part which was due to arrive possibly as soon as tomorrow is suddenly unavailable everywhere. My case manager also cannot explain why she mentioned rental reimbursement on Monday, and then when I told her to stop saying it was possible and actually get it done, all it took was a brief hold to get authorization while she made a quick phone call. She also cannot explain why she originally told me I could get reimbursed for seven days, but why when she came back on the line she told me that the maximum was five days. I think that, through the terms of her employment, she is unable to give me a simple, straight answer to any of my questions. My case manager said that has "has heard" that Chrysler does not stock parts for cars ten years old or older. She cannot confirm or deny anything. I believe my case manager has no actual authority. My wife explained to my case manager that this was not helping. My case manager's supervisor will call us "within 24 hours."

I don't know why it is so difficult for us to get answers to the following questions:
1. Is a PCM available?
2. If one is not available, can one be remanufactured?
3. If one can be remanufactured, what are the steps required to make sure it gets done efficiently and effectively?
4. If a PCM is not available and cannot be remanufactured, is Chrysler effectively trying to force us to buy a new car?

These questions will be put to the next person who phones either me or my wife.

It has been a very long day.

[Drive Stainless]

I'm busy right now with paperwork for school, and other articles for DeLorean World right now, otherwise I'd hit you up for the information and post it over on Oppo. But do you have any pictures to go with your story?


What is Oppo?

[Dangermouse]

What is Oppo?

It's a sister website to Jalopnik

[Dangermouse]

Later this afternoon, I got a phone call from the service advisor at Bergeron. He told me that he had heard from Mr. Bergeron that I had found my parts on chryslerfactoryparts.com, and that that website is in fact NOT operated by an authorized Chrysler Group dealer. (I guess their website lies.)

The "about us" page on factorychryslerparts.com (not chryslerfactoryparts.com) points to Shottenkirk Cherrokee Chrysler Dodge Ram, in Canton GA. The parts website phone number is 678-493-1029, while the main reception number at Shottenkirk is 678-493-1000. I would say that they are very much the same people

http://www.shottenkirkchrysler.com/

for fun, I requested a direct quote from them for the ecm (in case your name is flagged :) ). I'll let you know what they say (pm me an email address and I will forward any response to you Farrar)

EDIT - even though their fine print says "By submitting your contact information, you consent to be contacted by telephone about purchasing a vehicle or obtaining vehicle financing. Clicking on the Submit button above is your electronic signature". Just for buying a part for a Chrysler....... I think Robert is right.

[Drive Stainless]

It's a sister website to Jalopnik

Can you link it, please?

[DMCVegas]

Can you link it, please?

http://oppositelock.kinja.com/

It can sometimes be a free-for-all with the humor and comedy posts, so posts can sometimes get lost. But quite a few items do get re-posted from there onto Jalopnik. My last post about the little girl who was surprised by her parents buying a DeLorean I published to Oppo got picked up by Jalopnik and I got credit for the tip.

Jalopnik and it's sub-sister sites like Oppositelock & The Garage are great for stories like this. Especially Steve Lehto's tales of being an Michigan Attorney at Law who specializes in "Lemon Laws". It might be worth it to link even just this thread over to one of Jalopnik's editors as a tip, and see if they want to pick the story up.

Also, here is some shameless self-promotion:

https://kinja.com/DMCVegas

[Farrar]

I see DMCVegas is a fellow writer! But unlike me, he's actually been published on the internet. (One of my papers was published in a college textbook, thus assuring that no one will actually read it.)

As stated before, I have no photos or video to document my experience. I didn't think I would need to worry about anything like this happening when I took my car to this dealership in June. Back in 2015, they replaced the water pump, timing belt (w/ tensioners etc.), two engine mounts, a rusty coolant pipe, and lower control arms on this same vehicle. The quality of the work was excellent, they had no trouble getting approval from my service contract administrator, and they kept me up to date with phone calls informing me of progress and estimated cost and completion dates -- which were accurate. At that time, not all of the parts they needed were in stock, either -- but unlike now, they were actually able to source the parts and give me an accurate ETA. That's what makes this whole thing so surprising and frustrating.

[DMCVegas]

I talked with McLean Bergeron today. I had not intended to, but a friend of mine posted the link to my Google Plus note to the Bergeron Auto Facebook page. McLean Bergeron responded with his phone number. He seemed more annoyed than anything else, and he hadn't read all of my notes before we spoke. He told me that he sees that I am "trying to do some damage" to their reputation with my Google Plus post.

And scene! So now at this point, yes, you've ground them down to the point where they have no positive reward for helping you. So at this point, things are going to have to get really nasty. You ready for that? Here is some inspirational music to help get you going:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RbmS3tQJ7Os



I told him that on the contrary I had not made anything public until I considered it a last resort. I began taking notes just for my own information, because it's a lot of information to keep straight. I also told him that once this situation is resolved the post will be deleted. I told him that my family has been a Chrysler family since the 1950s, and the only reason I took my car to his service department in June was because they had done an excellent job with my car when I had major service done in 2015.

He doesn't care about that. No one cares. Not trying to be a dick at all, just being honest. At this point he's taking all of this personal, and is going to ensure that he's going to make your experience a living hell in order to get even with you.



He told me that there's nothing he can do about backordered parts. He told me that the people working in the service department are talented and hard-working, and that this is the busiest time of year for them. I told him that I had found both of those parts online at chryslerfactoryparts.com, which according to their website is "operated by Cherokee Chrysler LLC., an authorized Chrysler Group dealer."

Bullshit on all counts again. He's not happy that you're becoming an informed customer, and you're undermining his authority.



I explained to McLean Bergeron that I understand that sometimes parts are not available, but that I have been getting different answers from different people. I suggested that he should read all of my notes before we talk again.

Now he's going to be really pissed because you're telling him what to do.



He said that is impossible, that once installed "the PCM is married to that vehicle" and must be replaced if malfunctioning.

Well then you might just want to ask him the following:

Exactly HOW are the two devices "married" to one another? What specifically and precisely is the real, acutal cause of that?
Why is there a Read/Write error coming from the car? "Write" indicates the capability of programming due to the presence of an EPROM.
If the PCM isn't able to be reprogrammed, please explain TSB #1800707, which is is registered wtih the NHTSA as Reference #10021212 and is titled as: DRIVEABILITY IMPROVEMENTS. REPROGRAMMING THE POWERTRAIN CONTROL MODULE (PCM) WITH NEW SOFTWARE. Chrysler clearly says that the PCM is reprogrammable, is he just incapable of performing this task?


Find more here: http://www.chryslerproblems.com/tsbs/PT_Cruiser/2006/

Ask those questions directly in that order. Not so much to humiliate him (although that is a bonus if you're into that), but more importantly to prevent him from weasling his way out of the debate by having him use his own words against him.



My wife heard this telephone conversation, and even though it was after office hours she called my case manager at Chrysler, who picked up the phone. My case manager cannot explain to us why a part which was due to arrive possibly as soon as tomorrow is suddenly unavailable everywhere. My case manager also cannot explain why she mentioned rental reimbursement on Monday, and then when I told her to stop saying it was possible and actually get it done, all it took was a brief hold to get authorization while she made a quick phone call. She also cannot explain why she originally told me I could get reimbursed for seven days, but why when she came back on the line she told me that the maximum was five days. I think that, through the terms of her employment, she is unable to give me a simple, straight answer to any of my questions. My case manager said that has "has heard" that Chrysler does not stock parts for cars ten years old or older. She cannot confirm or deny anything. I believe my case manager has no actual authority. My wife explained to my case manager that this was not helping. My case manager's supervisor will call us "within 24 hours."

You're just getting bumped between case managers. The idea here is that as your case gets shuffled around, you're going to get frustrated and just give up. The other problem here is that A) Everything you're hearing from these people is not actually documented nor recorded, so you've no proof, and B) Like with the rental car they are not going to reimburse you at all. They don't even promise a thing to you. Trust me, I've dealt with that many times before working in the customer service industry years before. Open-ended statements are not binding promises and/or contracts in the least. "I imagine they will reimburse you for your rental car." Yeah, well I can imagine lots of things too, but imagination isn't real now is it?

At first this was definitely to scare you into buying a new car. Now? Nope, it's just trying to get you to shut up. At least on your case managers side. But more on that in a second here... For right now though, demand to get everything in writing. Even if it is just e-mailing you. And by all means if you DO exchange e-mails (which I would greatly encourage you to do), please ensure that all correspondence comes from corporate e-mail accounts. That way the reps are verified as speaking on behalf of Chrysler (or whomever else). Personal e-mails will no count in a court if it ever came to that. Otherwise if you DO pickup a rental car, make sure you have full, official documentation that Chrysler HAS paid for the rental in advance, and also promises to cover the expense of it in advance. That way you don't get slammed with a bill later on.



I don't know why it is so difficult for us to get answers to the following questions:
1. Is a PCM available?
2. If one is not available, can one be remanufactured?
3. If one can be remanufactured, what are the steps required to make sure it gets done efficiently and effectively?
4. If a PCM is not available and cannot be remanufactured, is Chrysler effectively trying to force us to buy a new car?

These questions will be put to the next person who phones either me or my wife.

It has been a very long day.

Hell, I can answer those questions now.

1. Yes, but they don't want to get it for you. Perhaps there is a restriction based upon your service contract, or even their parts department, sure. But they never said that. Instead they just wanted to lie to you and possibly "get even".
2. Yes again. Take a look here: http://www.chryslerptcruiserpcm.net/
3. Chrysler nor their parts suppliers themselves will ever perform this service. But there is of course a warranty offered by the 3rd party companies who perform this kind of work.
4. Probably not. You're one person and both Chrysler and this dealership seem to be operating on the old business ideas that a single person doesn't count for jack. No one takes into account the modern era of mass communications where misinformation alone can do significant damage, let alone the truth. That's all. The dealer? Oh yeah, they'd just love for you to buy a new car, yeah. Although you're past the point of all this now, and it's probably more profitable to their egos to screw you over.


So what should you do now? You now know FCA's weakness: They don't want to deal with you. Hence why they keep reassigning you to case mangers/workers/whatever. You also now know Bergeron's weakness too: Power. They don't like being told what to do. You can exploit this.

Continue to call your caseworkers or whatever. ALL OF THEM. Annoy and bother the living hell out of them. Contact Bergeron and notify them of the TSB and whatnot. Go back to your caseworkers AGAIN and harass the hell out of them, and notify them of what Bergeron has told you about not being able to program the PCMs, but especially their unwillingness to purchase the part from another Chrysler dealer. That's the weak point you're going to exploit. The idea is to get FCA's people super pissed-off and frustrated beyond belief. When they find out the Bergeron has an out on all this because the part IS accessable, they're going to place the pressure onto them to get this resolved so that you'll stop bothering the FCA reps. It will create a divide between the dealer and FCA, maybe even between the service department and the owner, and this will especially get the dealership pissed off at you. But you'll get what you'll want because everyone else then gets what they want.

Chrysler wants you to leave them alone.
Bergeron wants people to stop telling them what to do.
You want your car fixed. By fixing your car, and getting it done right the first time in order to get you to go away and STAY away, everyone gets what they want. But it's up to you to make that the only option available.

[DMCVegas]

I see DMCVegas is a fellow writer! But unlike me, he's actually been published on the internet. (One of my papers was published in a college textbook, thus assuring that no one will actually read it.)

You're still ahead of me. I've only done internet radio while you've been broadcast out on terrestrial. Never done voicework either. Had people tell me I should, and even had a referral to a local talent agency, but I never followed through with it. I just don't know anything about the business.



As stated before, I have no photos or video to document my experience. I didn't think I would need to worry about anything like this happening when I took my car to this dealership in June. Back in 2015, they replaced the water pump, timing belt (w/ tensioners etc.), two engine mounts, a rusty coolant pipe, and lower control arms on this same vehicle. The quality of the work was excellent, they had no trouble getting approval from my service contract administrator, and they kept me up to date with phone calls informing me of progress and estimated cost and completion dates -- which were accurate. At that time, not all of the parts they needed were in stock, either -- but unlike now, they were actually able to source the parts and give me an accurate ETA. That's what makes this whole thing so surprising and frustrating.

Dealerships, depending upon management and ownership, can so easily change overnight that it's unbelievable. First car I ever bought was a new Hyundai Accent back in 1996 (note: turns out you don't even need a license to buy a car). Dealership and manufacturer experience was beyond amazing. A few years later the owner passed and the place was sold. New owners brought in new staff, place went to hell. Dealership got sold again, and now it's good again. Go figure. Again though, loyalty might be fine among friends and family (depending upon your friends and family), but in business it simply doesn't exist.

Photos are always your best friend for anything. Especially with modern media where people are practically avoid reading at any cost, let alone have the ability to know how to use a book.

http://static1.1.sqspcdn.com/static/f/1376538/22414389/1365600692520/reading.gif?token=v5utJCt1OsYJZ%2BIzFfWubDICtZI%3D

[Farrar]

TSB #1800707, which is is registered wtih the NHTSA as Reference #10021212 and is titled as: DRIVEABILITY IMPROVEMENTS. REPROGRAMMING THE POWERTRAIN CONTROL MODULE (PCM) WITH NEW SOFTWARE. Chrysler clearly says that the PCM is reprogrammable, is he just incapable of performing this task?

Although that TSB refers to a manual transmission, and my car is equipped with an automatic transmission, I think the point has been made: obviously, powertrain control modules can be reprogrammed. In fact, a friend of mine just had his Corvette's PCM reprogrammed. He removed it, sent it away, received it back a few days later, and installed it.

[refugeefromcalif]

First car I ever bought was a new Hyundai Accent back in 1996 (note: turns out you don't even need a license to buy a car).

When I bought my Grand Caravan R/T new back in 2012, The dealer had to write my drivers license number on my check for it.

George

[DMCVegas]

When I bought my Grand Caravan R/T new back in 2012, The dealer had to write my drivers license number on my check for it.

George

That was for the check in case it bounced, not the car. They also need one for the test drive too, but I didn't take one. I just signed the contract and left. Learned to drive stick, and even took my drivers test in that same car too at the DMV. Caught the woman from the DMV by surprise at first since I didn't even have a permit, but since my parents had cosigned and they were on the insurance card too, all went well.

That car is apart of my own "Gang of Four" vehicles I let go of and regret doing so to this very day. If that car was still around and in good enough condition with no accidents, I'd buy it and restore it in a heartbeat.

[Farrar]

I lost my cool tonight. I finally got angry enough to bang on my desk and raise my voice. I ended up yelling and screaming into my case manager's voice mail, asking her at top volume why she is unable to do anything right. Anyone listening would probably think that I am bordering on violence. They would be correct. The next thing I did was throw a chair across the room.

What brought me to this point? This:

Earlier today, I left a voice mail with my case manager, explaining my unavailability for the remainder of the afternoon, and instructing her to give her supervisor my wife's contact info and availability.

Because my case manager failed to pass on the information, I received a phone call from her supervisor, which went to voice mail because I was on the air. All she said was her name, her rank, and that since she hadn't reached me on Friday she would try again on Monday. Now I have to wait all weekend because my case manager either wasn't in the office today (and didn't tell us yesterday that she had today off), or didn't follow my explicit, detailed, and easy-to-follow instructions.

I am done being reasonable. I am now being seriously unpleasant.

[Farrar]

I just had a thought: if the dealer says they can't get a part needed to put my car on the road, and the company says they can't get a part needed to put my car on the road, do I call my insurance company and inform them that the vehicle has been totalled?

[DMCMW Dave]

I just had a thought: if the dealer says they can't get a part needed to put my car on the road, and the company says they can't get a part needed to put my car on the road, do I call my insurance company and inform them that the vehicle has been totalled?

They would not cover the failure of the part (whether it was available or not).

Funny thing is, if somone broke into the car and smashed the ECU with a hammer, it would definitely be covered. Just plain parts failure isn't.

What's a PT cruiser worth now anyway? I dont' recall what year you said it was.

[Farrar]

What's a PT cruiser worth now anyway? I dont' recall what year you said it was.

It's a 2006. I'm sure it's not worth much, even though it's got some of the better options (e.g. 4-wheel disc brakes, turbocharger).

[DMCMW Dave]

It's a 2006. I'm sure it's not worth much, even though it's got some of the better options (e.g. 4-wheel disc brakes, turbocharger).

Ever seen this one? Scroll to 5:30 if you dare . . .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MBFd7LI44XQ

[Farrar]

Ever seen this one? Scroll to 5:30 if you dare . . .

That guy needs to get a new hobby. Or laid. I'm not sure which.

[David T]

Maybe he has the part you need! I would call him and ask!

[Farrar]

I think the moment of truth will be if I can actually get someone from Chrysler on the telephone who will admit to me that a PCM can be reprogrammed. The service advisor at the dealership has told me that reprogramming a PCM is impossible. I need proof one way or the other.

If my car cannot be repaired, then I will be making payments on a non-functioning vehicle. (I only have a few payments left, but if the vehicle isn't functioning its value plummets beyond what little I still owe.) That will be a new situation for me and I will need to figure out what to do at that time -- pay it off, get the title in hand, and sell it for scrap, or what.

[DMCVegas]

I lost my cool tonight. I finally got angry enough to bang on my desk and raise my voice. I ended up yelling and screaming into my case manager's voice mail, asking her at top volume why she is unable to do anything right. Anyone listening would probably think that I am bordering on violence. They would be correct. The next thing I did was throw a chair across the room.

You're only human, and you finally reached your breaking point.



I think the moment of truth will be if I can actually get someone from Chrysler on the telephone who will admit to me that a PCM can be reprogrammed. The service advisor at the dealership has told me that reprogramming a PCM is impossible. I need proof one way or the other.

Not going to lie here, but that may only be for your own satisfaction and nothing more. You could still end up with a Service Advisor that will reject that notion on the grounds that they're more knowledgable, etc. Hell, on Saturday I took my car in for an oil change at the same dealership I bought the car from. Never had a problem before until then. I've got a comped oil change, and the SA (a new hire mind you) was trying to sell me on a cooling system flush because the "previous notes" from last time I brought the car in said that there was a "concern" about my coolant. I asked why on earth there would be a problem. Mind you of course I'm in a good mood, and sometimes I just want to see how far down the rabbit hole this conversation can go. The conversation goes like this:

SA: You might want to consider a cooling system service, sir. Last time your vehicle was in, the technician made a note about the cooling system. We can get that done for you today, and it would only be about $129.
Me: A concern? Of what type?
SA: There was a concern about the coolant.
Me: A concern of what type?
SA: That your coolant might be old, and given your mileage it might be time for a flush.
Me: The vehicle is only two and a half years old, and it has 52,000 miles on the clock. Ford uses organic acid technology, extended-life coolant which is guaranteed for 5 years, or 150,000 miles, whichever comes first. Why would I need to change that coolant now if I've not met any of the requirements as set by Ford?
SA: Well, uh, you see, you can't go by those numbers. I know that's what Ford says, but it's just not true because we're here in Houston where it's much hotter, so that takes more of a toll on coolant. Ford doesn't account for that.
Me: Severe Duty Maintenance schedule?
SA: You know, it's just hotter here, and I would hate for you to have problems with your car.
Me: Let's talk about what the technician found then. Did it fail some sort of chemical test?
SA: Well, you know, I don't know. I can only go by what the notes here say, and it made mention of a concern about the coolant.
Me: So we don't know if it is actually bad then?
SA: It could have been that it was just low on coolant. You know, I get really concerned about fluids myself, because we want to always make sure they're full and in good condition. It's hard to say what the technician saw, but we can have them check it again. I don't know if perhaps it was discolored, which could mean it's breaking down. And that can happen too either with extreme heat, or if water gets into the radiator it can break down the antifreeze.

Me:
https://media.giphy.com/media/cBYiHsSdCfOCY/giphy.gif



If my car cannot be repaired, then I will be making payments on a non-functioning vehicle. (I only have a few payments left, but if the vehicle isn't functioning its value plummets beyond what little I still owe.) That will be a new situation for me and I will need to figure out what to do at that time -- pay it off, get the title in hand, and sell it for scrap, or what.

Talk to your extended warranty company here, and see what they have to say. You are of course on the hook for the loan mind you, since you did sign a legal contract. But contact the warranty company and ask inquire to them about a full refund since their coverage is not doing what they promised you it would. See if that gets them involved to put some pressure on the dealership's service department.

However the truth of the matter here is that your vehicle isn't beyond any repairable. As you can obviously see, the parts are obtainable. You might either visit an independent shop, or just replace the PCM yourself (visit a proper PT Cruiser forum and/or parts supplier for further details on that.

Could a vehicle be totaled because of this? That's a good question which I have no answer to. Ask your insurance agent that question, and see if perhaps involving another party into this mix, especially by sending out an insurance adjuster to visit the car and the Service Center at Bergeron. If Bergeron cannot fix the vehicle, and as such they're the party responsible, the insurance company might just come after them to recover the losses they would incur by totaling the car. That might just be a good way to apply another layer of pressure onto them.

If that did happen, settle with the company to keep the car, repair it, and then keep driving it. But no, the problem at this point isn't your car. It's the dealership.

[Farrar]

I finally spoke to my case manager's supervisor ... well, former case manager, anyway -- I got a new one; I guess the one I had, who proved herself totally useless to me, didn't want to be yelled at anymore. Go figure.

Anyway, I explained to the new lady (there are no men in customer service at Chrysler, apparently) that I had received conflicting information from the Bergeron service advisor. She asked what she could do to help, and I told her that she could get a straight answer from them, because obviously I can't.

She couldn't tell me whether it was true that a PCM couldn't be reprogrammed, but LO AND BEHOLD a PCM has been located and is due to arrive at Bergeron on Wednesday.

I told her that this is good news, but that since I can't trust anyone at Bergeron to tell me the truth about anything, I will need verification from Chrysler at every step of the way until I get my car back. I told her about the way I'd been treated, and I told her that

- no one at any level has said that there was anything wrong with the way I've been treated;
- no one at any level has apologized for the way I've been treated; and
- no one at any level has said there is anything they can do about the way I've been treated.

I asked if Chrysler has any kind of oversight of a dealership's customer service, or if the dealership is completely autonomous when it comes to matters like this. She said that Chrysler actually takes customer service seriously, and they'll be speaking with the dealership about this. She also -- shocking! -- apologized and said she agrees that what I've dealt with has been unacceptable.

I told her that the sooner this is over, the sooner I go away, but until I get my car repaired I will need regular updates from Chrysler, not from Bergeron. My new case manager will call the dealership on Wednesday to confirm that they received the PCM (or haven't, as the case may be), and then will call me with an update. The PCM, when it arrives, will be replaced under warranty. As for the other damage to my vehicle, I will speak to my new case manager about that on Wednesday -- after office hours, of course, because it seems that no one at Chrysler starts making phone calls until 5pm.

I'm so done with this company it's not even funny.

[DMCVegas]

Anyway, I explained to the new lady (there are no men in customer service at Chrysler, apparently)

Question: What does gender have to do with this?

[Farrar]

Question: What does gender have to do with this?

Answer: Nothing. It was sarcasm. My representatives so far have been Jenna, Dillon, Cara, Armika, Amber, Sabrina, and Louise. I think "Dillon" is a guy's name.

Maybe I shouldn't try being sarcastic when I'm angry and tired. Sorry.

[AugustneverEnds]

After reading about this saga of incompetence and BS, I think you deserve an award for not punching anyone at the stealership out.

[David T]

After reading about this saga of incompetence and BS, I think you deserve an award for not punching anyone at the stealership out.


To be fair to the dealer, if the parts network and dealer support network doesn't or can't provide what the dealer needs, you can't blame them for stalling and otherwise dancing around the service of the car. They are the ones left to deal with you directly and it isn't fair for them either. I agree they shouldn't lie about it but that is where human nature comes in, trying to be optimistic and getting caught in a web of lies. What you really want to try to do is "get them on your side". Confront them with the lies and tell them it is now time for the truth and what, if anything, can be done so you can work together. Ask for a meeting with the general manager, the service manager, and the parts manager. There may be something they can do as far as getting you a deal, where you trade the car in and get a big discount on another vehicle. They may have a program where they can do something.

[DMCVegas]

Answer: Nothing. It was sarcasm. My representatives so far have been Jenna, Dillon, Cara, Armika, Amber, Sabrina, and Louise. I think "Dillon" is a guy's name.

Maybe I shouldn't try being sarcastic when I'm angry and tired. Sorry.

No worries, man. I myself, I actually prefer dealing with women when it comes to automotive stuff. Any technology industry itself is already going to be sexist against them, so they have to work much harder to get the same level of recognition that any given man does. The general attitude seems to be that if a man doesn't know something, it's not a big deal. But if a woman doesn't, it's proof she doesn't belong working there. As such I have found women are usually much more knowledgeable than men within their given technology profession (automotive, telecommunications, networking, etc.) because there is such a higher risk for them if they're wrong.

I also prefer working with them too because of that. Recognition and appreciation goes much farther with women, so it's much easier to get them to work harder on your behalf. It's not always true of course, as we've seen here, but it's generally a good rule of thumb.



To be fair to the dealer, if the parts network and dealer support network doesn't or can't provide what the dealer needs, you can't blame them for stalling and otherwise dancing around the service of the car. They are the ones left to deal with you directly and it isn't fair for them either. I agree they shouldn't lie about it but that is where human nature comes in, trying to be optimistic and getting caught in a web of lies. What you really want to try to do is "get them on your side". Confront them with the lies and tell them it is now time for the truth and what, if anything, can be done so you can work together. Ask for a meeting with the general manager, the service manager, and the parts manager.

Screwing with people you don't like, who have already pissed you off, is positively human nature. I can certainly tell you that in my years prior with customer-facing jobs, it positively happens. All. The. Time. There are quite a few universally loathed people, including celebrities, that would continuously get ignored by almost all Service Industry personnel in Vegas.

Since Chrysler wasn't going to take the blame for the parts, then said blame must fall upon the dealership. But again, that just seems to be the running theme here: Not my problem.



There may be something they can do as far as getting you a deal, where you trade the car in and get a big discount on another vehicle. They may have a program where they can do something.

If I was a betting man, I'd say that this has been their goal from the very beginning; Scare Farrar into buying a new vehicle from them.

The sad thing though is that nothing is going to happen because of this. Once Farrar's car is repaired and out of both the proverbially collective hair of the dealership and the Chrysler relations team, they're just going to close this out as a successful resolution. The repair times, the customer dissatisfaction, the problems with the parts "supply", none of it will count. It'll just be written up as a successfully resolved repair with both entities as though it never existed, and they'll move on.

If you don't report certain metrics, then it's like they never existed. Kinda like how Japan has one of the lowest murder rates in the world, yet somehow has one of the highest suicide rates. It's all about how you classify, report, and then interpret.

[Ryan King]

Is this the part Farrar? -

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2050890.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.H0.X2006+pt+c ruiser+transmission+control.TRS0&_nkw=2006+pt+cruiser+transmission+control&_sacat=6000

[Farrar]

Update: even Chrysler doesn't know where the damned powertrain control module is. It was supposed to arrive today, and it didn't. I got phone calls from both the dealership and my case manager with the same information. Maybe the Pony Express broke down, or high winds disturbed the smoke signals.

It was never this bad under Daimler. Is Fiat trying to destroy Chrysler from within?

[Ryan King]

Is Fiat trying to destroy Chrysler from within?

Would anyone really miss it....?

[AugustneverEnds]

Destroying Chrysler from within would be following in Fiat's footsteps of destroying Fiat from within. Putting two sinking ships together doesn't get you one seaworthy vessel.

After my mom's '95 Dodge Intrepid and her '99 Chrysler Sebring ate their transmissions for lunch at less than 100K miles, no I would not miss it.

[whocruiser]

Update: even Chrysler doesn't know where the damned powertrain control module is. It was supposed to arrive today, and it didn't. I got phone calls from both the dealership and my case manager with the same information. Maybe the Pony Express broke down, or high winds disturbed the smoke signals.

It was never this bad under Daimler. Is Fiat trying to destroy Chrysler from within?

Of course it's not there, they're probably driving it out to you personally - in a PT Cruiser that also broke down, LOL ;-)

[Farrar]

Would anyone really miss it....?

I would.

But I have terrible aim.

*rimshot*

[DMCVegas]

Update: even Chrysler doesn't know where the damned powertrain control module is. It was supposed to arrive today, and it didn't. I got phone calls from both the dealership and my case manager with the same information. Maybe the Pony Express broke down, or high winds disturbed the smoke signals.

It was never this bad under Daimler. Is Fiat trying to destroy Chrysler from within?

Chrysler has always had it's own set of problems going back many, many decades into the past. Ford is like Daimler where they started out building cars themselves and continued forward with acquiring or neutralizing rivals when possible. General Motors is a conglomerate started by William Durant to buy the best coachbuilders and engineers and bring them in under one roof so everyone can benefit.

Walter Chrysler pretty much just piecemealed everything together by conrast. Buy some so-so companies, and then take the best parts out of them to try and make one really good vehicle out of all of them.

Ironically enough, had it not have been for Henry Ford himself, FoMoCo's two rivals Cadillac and Dodge possibly wouldn't even exist.

Chrysler to be sure certainly has had some great innovations over the years. Especially when you look at the beginnings where the Dodge Brothers pushing forward with technology rather than Henry Ford's idea of just sticking with what you know, and especially letting your personal needs getting placed ahead of the needs of the business. Plus their acquisitions of other companies such as AMC greatly benefited them, which is why they were so attractive to Daimler; they wanted to raid their technologies. Once Dailmer got what they wanted, they dropped them like a bad habit. Then Cerberus took over until Fiat came along. Fiat's goal was to take over Chrysler for any left-over tech and to get a foothold in on the American market.

Then we have Sergio Marchionne who is pushing for FCA into a hostile acquisition of General Motors. He says he's given up, and at the time thanks to €7B in debt. Just today alone it was released that Germany is now investigating FCA for their own emissions cheating scandal too for their 2.0L diesels, which certainly isn't going to help matters. But Ferrari's 9% public offering has helped raise almost $900M in liquid cash, and brought in a total value increase of over $4B to counter the debt. If GM sales continue to slide while the dollar increases, unless Toyota comes to GM's rescue, FCA may indeed conquer the General once and for all.

But is Fiat trying to purposefully destroy Chrysler? Probably not. They're just busy with more important things right now. They're a global conglomerate, and Chrysler is just a step child that isn't quite as important, so not as much attention gets paid to it. Especially with the antiquated dealer distribution system that the United States uses that further complicates things.

[Farrar]

Last Wednesday, the PCM was due to arrive at the dealership. I received a phone call that afternoon and was told that something went wrong and it was now due to arrive on Friday.

On Friday, I received a phone call saying that again something had gone wrong with shipping and it would arrive on Tuesday.

On Tuesday, I received a phone call saying that the part had shipped and would arrive on Thursday.

This afternoon, the dealership called and told me that the part had arrived and had been installed.

I'm at work right now, but my wife has picked up the car and told me that the "check engine" light is off, the car seems to be driving OK, and the damage to the interior has not been repaired.

Chrysler has won the battle and lost the war. I'm going to call them and tell them that although my problem was NOT 100% resolved, I will not return to that or any other Chrysler dealership. Previous generations of my family have been Mopar customers for life. This experience has turned me into an anything-but-Mopar customer for life.

[David T]

Sell the car quick while it is still working. Don't look back.

[Ryan King]

Sell the car quick while it is still working. Don't look back.

+1

[Farrar]

Extended service contract is in effect until May or 125,000 miles, whichever comes first. After that, it's "AMF" to this beast.

[DMCVegas]

The dealer certainly lost both the war and the battle, but Chrysler is still betting on your buying another product. They're hoping that you'll chock this up to just a bad dealership experience, and that you'll move on to another to buy another Chrysler automobile, meaning that they've finally won. They'll mark this up as a successful resolution and close the books, but they're betting that you'll come back later on.

It's your call if you want to keep the car. But honestly, save for it's side-impact safety ratings, you might as well just hang onto it. You've got a pretty decent community of support that will help you out, and there really isn't too much at all you won't be able to fix yourself. In fact, had you NOT have had this dealership getting in the way and had done the repair yourself, it would have been done in a fraction of the time with allot less stress. The amount of cash per month you don't spend on another car goes right into your pocket after you save it up to create a nice little car repair fund.

Granted, I'm cheap. I don't like spending money I don't have to, and a paid-off car is a huge benefit.

I'm glad though you finally got your car back. You're pissed at Chrysler too like I am after the crap I went through with them and their dealer network. But hey, you've got the car. You could either jump right back in to another vehicle, or just make this one last a while longer and then rely upon yourself and online support network rather than Chrysler. THAT is what will keep the car going.

[mr_maxime]

I concur with keeping it and doing repairs yourself. You can always end up buying another car full of problems. I used to believe in "Honda reliability" but my delorean has been more reliable in general. Cars will break down. You will always hear horror stories and there will always be one that went 300k needing only oil changes.

[Farrar]

You could either jump right back in to another vehicle, or just make this one last a while longer and then rely upon yourself and online support network rather than Chrysler. THAT is what will keep the car going.


I concur with keeping it and doing repairs yourself.

That's the plan, for exactly the reasons that you guys stated. A paid-off vehicle is a nice thing. What I do is when I've paid a vehicle off, I "pretend" I'm still making payments on it and just put the same amount per month into my savings.

I have the Chrysler factory service manual for this vehicle -- all 2,078 pages of it. If I'm lucky I won't need any proprietary tools to do maintenance and repairs from here on out.

There are a few things I don't have that would make working on any vehicle easier, but I always ask for Amazon gift cards for the holidays, and Amazon has two things I need for future car work: a DeWalt cordless impact wrench and an electric ratchet. (I know air tools are superior, but there's not space in my current garage for a big compressor.)

Oh, and here's a nice P.S.: when I got home, I saw the LH taillight was loose. I pushed it back into place and this fell out:
46220

Funny, it was broken from underneath. Not a scratch on the outside. Did some shop monkey try to make me pay for a new bulb housing? BFD. I'm buying aftermarket -- $33 and Chrysler doesn't get a dime from me. LOL

[DMCVegas]

There are a few things I don't have that would make working on any vehicle easier, but I always ask for Amazon gift cards for the holidays, and Amazon has two things I need for future car work: a DeWalt cordless impact wrench and an electric ratchet. (I know air tools are superior, but there's not space in my current garage for a big compressor.)

Do what you've got to do, man. We don't all have climate-controlled dream garages with lifts, air compressors, and tool chests taller than we are. Hell, some of us don't even have garages. Nothing wrong at all with making do.



Oh, and here's a nice P.S.: when I got home, I saw the LH taillight was loose. I pushed it back into place and this fell out:
46220

Funny, it was broken from underneath. Not a scratch on the outside. Did some shop monkey try to make me pay for a new bulb housing? BFD. I'm buying aftermarket -- $33 and Chrysler doesn't get a dime from me. LOL

Awwww SNAP, son! I see some new tail lights in Farrar's future!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v70/CREWZIN/Taildisplay.jpg

Some shop monkey may have smacked the housing with their knuckles while slinging poo at one another. Who knows.

[Farrar]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v70/CREWZIN/Taildisplay.jpg


46234

[mr_maxime]

I saw 2 pt cruisers like that at the last car show I went to. I was completely baffled that people actually tricked them out.

[DMCVegas]

People do. I mean, I'm not against custom cars. It's your vehicle, you do with it what you want. But the obscene level of tacky customizations people do to PT Cruisers, I believe, is probably the reason they've gotten such a bad reputation. They make DONKS and slabs look subtle.

The good news though is that if Farrar's car actually ever IS irreparable, it's still got a great life ahead of it as a trailer for his DeLorean.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-ZovjiTmQp94/VjzAEHYX0XI/AAAAAAAAT3E/nsflPZblZOc/s1600/PT4.jpg

[Farrar]

When I see stuff like that, I make this face.

46239

[DMCVegas]

Is it because you need a trailer with more space? The Internet has got you covered!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v230/thefoks/IMG_3010.jpg

[Dangermouse]

Wait a second - Robert is now on the DOA board???

And back OT - PT Cruiser owners seem to enjoy the sticky-backed-chrome aisle at PepBoys waaaaay more than other marques

[DMCVegas]

PT Cruiser owners seem to enjoy the sticky-backed-chrome aisle at PepBoys waaaaay more than other marques

Collectively, I feel like that's a very valid statement. The demographic was of retiring baby boomers with money to burn on these retro-looking vehicles to try and recapture their youth, but were too old to really wrench on the cars is what seems to be the reason for that. Because like 90% of the mods you see to them are snap-on or stick-on accessories that require minimal work, so people took to customizing these things in droves. It's not that they're terrible cars, but baby boomers hung up on American Graffiti pretty much soiled the image of the PT Cruiser in the same way that teenagers who idolized The Fast and the Furious did the image of Honda Civics.



Wait a second - Robert is now on the DOA board???

That is correct. (http://www.deloreanowners.org/contacts/) I have been for a few months now. If you ever needed proof that Ed is no longer involved and has absolutely ZERO influence over the DOA, let my presence on the board be that proof.

The board has changed quite a bit for sure, and I absolutely work with some good people. Hell, even in the short time I've been apart of the DOA Board I've already seen some changes that I didn't think would ever happen. For instance, look at my signature. Being part of a team, I absolutely cannot take sole credit for the changes nor upcoming announcements. But there are some on the way such as the upcoming 2017 DeLorean Expo in Vegas, and some more surprises in the works that I fully believe we would never have seen from the old DOA boards. That also is not a jab at every one of the past board members at all. Many gave it their all and tried to do the best they could. It would seem that sometimes things just didn't work out for various reasons. I say "seem" because I wasn't there in all of those meetings, and I can only go by my past interactions. So it is speculative. But what I can certainly say right now is that this would appear to be the most cohesive, welcoming, and decisive board yet. It's a work in progress, but we get things done.

I always wanted to be more involved within the DeLorean community beyond just online interactions. When it came to the DOA of years past, I definitely was not in agreement with the then organization, and I certainly did not feel as though it represented me. I thought that it could be much greater, but at the time I just wasn't a good fit. After talking with Randal last October, it appeared as though the timing was finally right. So I joined, got elected, and now I'm able to share ideas and try to be the change that I wanted to see in the past. So far it's been a very rewarding situation with what I've seen and experienced.

I'm not trying to go for personal glory in the least. I know who I am, and that's good enough for me. But I definitely want to see an honest, unifying club that benefits everyone because it works FOR everyone. A DOA for ALL DeLorean owners regardless of geographical location, income, vehicle condition (hell, MINE doesn't even work right now!), originality, modifications, vehicle usage, gender, race, personal bias, or whatever else we've seen in the past or could be worried about. I want to have the kind of club that I would join, and that you and everyone else would too, that benefits all of us. I believe that is achievable.

[sdg3205]

Sounds familiar?

2009 Ford F-150 (http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/canada/calgary/ford-f150-auto-parts-obsolete-go-public-1.3746577)

[DMCVegas]

Nope. Ford at least made good and sourced this guy a part.

The funny thing here is that even AutoZone sells aftermarket modules on their website he could have just bought and installed, as do others. So that mechanic they consulted with must not know how to use a computer.

I mean, I get that the manufacturers only are obligated to support equipment for so long. Parts, in particular electronic modules especially, are only going to last so long. Just as we see with computers when Hardware and Software manufacturers cease to support older products. Likewise for a difficult repair, or for any other reason, it's also the mechanic and/or repair shop's right to refuse to service a vehicle.

[Farrar]

"Vehicles, allegedly, are being made better and better these days," Rubner says.

Yeah -- "allegedly" is right.

Even so, for a manufacturer to not even support its own customers is shameful.

I guess maybe those guys who buy ancient Ford pickups and repair them with parts from AutoZone and McMaster-Carr may have a point...

[sdg3205]

Nope. Ford at least made good and sourced this guy a part.


Only after taking it public. They clearly first attempted to sweep it under the rug.

This is why i visit salvage yards or eBay when i need something like an ABS module.

[Farrar]

Fiat-Chrysler said it provides service parts "up to 10 years after production ends,"


46251

[mr_maxime]

Next time people ask me how hard it is to get parts for my delorean, ill respond with "easier than getting a pcm for a pt cruiser or hvac module for an f-150"

[Farrar]

Next time people ask me how hard it is to get parts for my delorean, ill respond with "easier than getting a pcm for a pt cruiser or hvac module for an f-150"

I'll definitely be using that one, too.

Finding a replacement engine for my 1981 DeLorean was easier than finding a powertrain control module for my 2006 Chrysler.

[DMCVegas]

Only after taking it public. They clearly first attempted to sweep it under the rug.

This is why i visit salvage yards or eBay when i need something like an ABS module.

Exactly. Or even better yet, just get the things professionally rebuilt. Like that episode of Wheeler Dealers with the VW Corrado. The ABS module went out because of internal corrosion due to a cracked plastic housing above the circuit boards. A brand-new unit was hard enough to find, and was something like £800 from VW. But they took the module to a rebuilder who exchanged their unit for a rebuilt one with a lifetime warranty for only £150 or so. It was a huge price savings, not to mention that it came with both a longer warranty and was readily available.

The problem with everything here in these situations is this:

The car manufacturers can't be expected to supply parts forever for a vehicle they make. Even years after production has ended.
Reproduction or remanufactured parts can easily be used to keep the vehicle on the road, but an officially licensed service center may not be able to install a non-certified by the manufacturer part depending upon what their contractual obligations and/or policies are.
Then you have some customers who have this whole fear of used/remanufactured parts and will not accept them as replacement parts.
So then the blame falls back upon the manufacturer.

It gets worse too when you have a reporter who is trying to sensationalize the story. They find this old mechanic and tell him, "Go find us a brand-new in the box NOS replacement part." He either isn't allowed to, or doesn't even bother to explore the remanufactured OEM parts sellers who actually have usable replacement parts in stock. Mechanic as a result says that he cannot locate the part. News story editor twists this into fear mongering that it is now impossible to keep the vehicle on the road by conveniently omitting the possibility of aftermarket, and/or remanufactured parts.

Did Ford have brand-new modules sitting on the shelf? No. Did AutoZone have compatible aftermarket modules available on their shelves that would have worked? Yes! But if they'd have brought that up, it would have ruined the sensationalism of their story.

Same thing with Farrar's PT Cruiser. If Farrar had done the work himself, or taken the car to an independent shop, the diagnosis would have been the same of course, but the car would have been repaired much faster. Why? Because they would have instead just used a remanufactured part and he'd have been back on the road in a couple of days.

Even giving the benefit of the doubt to car manufactures, the average lifespan of an automobile used to be about 8 years. I say "used to be" because back in 2006 or so before the economy tanked, the buying public had allot more cash and would rotate vehicles out of their garages far more often. Manufacturers now are trying to cite improvements to engineering and technology and have moved the lifespan up to around 10 years. But in truth thanks to a mix of a poor economy and a severely depleted used car market, the average age of vehicles on the road is now up to 11.5 exceeding that 10-year estimate from the manufacturers.

And those are just the averages. According to a 2015 study there are over 14 million vehicles on the road right now that are over 25 years old, and another 44 million that are between 16 to 24 years old.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2015/07/29/new-car-sales-soaring-but-cars-getting-older-too/30821191/

So you know that as time passes, these numbers are just going to shoot up higher and higher. But the key to keeping cars on the road will be DIY repairs and independent shops. Because dealers will eventually just stop refusing to service these cars. Doesn't mean that they're bad cars, nor that the manufacturers are not standing behind their product. It just means that you've got to put the work in to repairing and maintaining the cars yourself.

[Farrar]

It just means that you've got to put the work in to repairing and maintaining the cars yourself.

And so I am saving my pennies for a nice impact wrench... :)