Oh crap :( Water pump leaking, temp and amp gauges dead

[DaraSue]

So I decided to take it on a short road trip to make sure everything was hunky-dory before driving to Vegas next week. Well, 10 miles outside of Wendover I stopped at a rest stop and when I went to get back in the car I found it leaking antifreeze by the water pump. The temp had been just under the 220 line the whole way and by then I'd sat for 45 minutes so I continued into town but as I was getting off the freeway I realized that the temp gauge hadn't really moved possibly in over an hour and my amp gauge was dead. Now I'm worried that I actually drove 100 miles with it overheating. I checked the oil filler and the plastic wasn't melted and the oil on the dipstick looked OK but is there anything else I should check? I felt the radiator intake and outflow hoses and they were warm so I'm hoping that means everything was flowing correctly but from what I've read here it sounds like I have a failed seal in the water pump.

How screwed am I? If worst comes to worst I can either get it towed back to SLC or leave it here and take the bus back but what are the chances a random mechanic can fix this?

[Lwanmtr]

Check the two hoses at the top of the water pump, maybe the clamps just worked loose... I was running mine one day and saw antifreeze running on the ground..got worried and called Toby at DMCNW and he told me to check them...sure enough, the clamps were a little loose.

[sdg3205]

Buy a pressure tester and see where you are leaking. Were the hoses firm at operating temperature?

If there is still coolant in the system, the rad was hot and it didn't boil over you're probably fine. I have seen brand new water pumps leak.

[DaraSue]

Dave, funny you should mention new pumps leaking because this one was replaced by the seller. I contacted him to see what brand it was and if it had a warranty.

I didn't see anything obviously wrong with the hoses but I'll take another look in the morning. There was fluid up by the thermostat and throttle, below them (I'll post a picture tomorrow).

One other thing I forgot to mention, when I got to the hotel, it wasn't leaking any more. But maybe it was just my imagination but it felt hot inside the cabin. (Perhaps worth noting that I didn't have the a\c on, but had run it briefly a few times earlier that day).

I've got a pressure tester. How will I tell where it's leaking, will it make a noise or bubble or something? I used it when I was trying to troubleshoot the overheating in WY but I don't think it was actually leaking then.

[sdg3205]

You'll know if you have a leak because pressure will drop and coolant will probably visibly spill out somewhere. Likely from the elbow hoses at the water pump as already mentioned.

Pump to 15 psi, have your flathead or sockets ready and tighten the hose clamps where the leaks are present.

[Lwanmtr]

Up on top sounds like the hoses to me, thats where I saw it when I started watching it after seeing it on the ground.

Pressure tester is prolly something I should get, unless its the same thing thats used for the fuel pressure.

[DMC5180]

It's not uncommon to see leaks on recently installed water pumps. The hoses / clamps are still going through the break in process and settling in. In addition to the pressure testing, The correct thing to do is tighten all the clamps with a torque wrench. Worm clamps are typically 50-60 inch lbs. A bad water pump is determined by the weep hole in the shaft housing. If that is dry then you just have an external leak to deal with. Running at 220 is okay so long as the needle does not keep going above that. You did not mention the outside air temp and elevation but given that you weren't running the A/C. (Assuming it works) tells me it was not that hot out.

You many have a flaky ground connection at the the LH gauge set. That Volt gauge and temp gauge share the same ground trace on the PCB. As long as the Batt light comes ON with the key ON and goes OFF when you start the engine, your alternator is charging. What direction was the volt gauge needle pointing and what happens to the temp needle when you turn the key ON without starting?


Dennis

[Michael]

I would say you didn't overheat since waterpumps tend to leak but still work as long as they have coolant to move.

I have a question, did you (or someone else) recently add coolant? are you sure it wasn't overflow? The overflow hose is somewhat close to the water pump area.

[Rich W]

I would say you didn't overheat since waterpumps tend to leak but still work as long as they have coolant to move.

I have a question, did you (or someone else) recently add coolant? are you sure it wasn't overflow? The overflow hose is somewhat close to the water pump area.

Excellent observation by Michael. IIRC, DaraSue just had the thermostat swapped recently at her local repair shop and they probably topped off the overflow tank afterward.

While the engine is cold, take a quick look in the overflow tank, to check the level. Usually, somewhere between 1/2 and 2/3 full will be the correct level in the overflow tank.

[DaraSue]

I just hooked up the pressure tester and pumped it into the 13-14 range (it was getting hard to press the plunger by then and I was afraid to push it further) but I found leaks in the passenger and driver side large hoses. The ones above the pump on the passenger side and the one going down to the radiator line on the driver's side. I tightened the clamps and it stopped dripping so I'll consider that a positive sign.

I ended up leaving the thermostat that was in it because it had the jiggle pin after all, but I did just have it flushed and one of the hoses on (I think) the return line from the radiator replaced (passenger side, under the car near the front, but I didn't see any leaks from there or the radiator).

I haven't started it up yet but the temp gauge is still showing a hair under 220 and the amp gauge is pointing down below the low end of the scale.

[Michael]

If your volt gauge is working a little then you may have 2 separate problems...in other words your volt gauge may be working and telling you the truth. Check your battery voltage.

As far as the temp gauge, does it (or the volt gauge) move at all? The temp gauge should read 0 on a cold engine with the ignition key on.

[Dangermouse]

Obvious question - are your V-belts still on?

[DaraSue]

As far as I can tell the belts are all where they're supposed to be. I did just turn it on accessories and the gauges seem to be somewhat back to normal. The temp gauge went back to the bottom and the amp gauge moved up a little. But the battery light looked like it was flashing. Is that normal or was it not charging last night due to a wet belt slipping or something?

[Michael]

If your alternator/pump belt is slipping the battery light will illuminate but that usually happens under a load (ie. Acceleration) unless it's really loose. Tension needs to be checked and verified.

[DMC5180]

Flashing batt light is normal with the new DMCH CS130 alternator.


Dennis

[Bitsyncmaster]

Flashing batt light is normal with the new DMCH CS130 alternator.


Dennis

You can stop the flashing by connecting the sense terminal to the output (battery) terminal. It also stops the voltage dropout every 18 seconds. So I'm guessing that flashing is an error code.

[DaraSue]

Well, I started it up and drove a mile up the road. At first the gauges were still frozen but then it started acting normal again (a little over 13 volts and around 160 deg). I almost got back on the freeway but thought I better get it looked at just in case. Good thing b\c by the time I got to the shop the volt meter was dead again. He tested the battery and it was good and charging. We ran it up and it looks like it's leaking from around the thermostat housing. He's blowing it off now to try and find exactly where the leak is.

[Lwanmtr]

Not sure on the volt meter..electrical issues can be fun to track down, could even be just a loose connector.

Hope its just the seal on the leaking.

[DaraSue]

They found a couple of hoses that were still loose and fixed those - one was a bypass hose that I think was inside the thermostat housing so I probably couldn't have fixed it myself. It's not leaking anymore but the gauges were still not right. They said the battery was low even though the alternator was charging so they're going to charge it some more and replace the belts. Fortunately I still had the set I brought with me from Chicago :)

I checked the fuses and they looked good so it wasn't that.

[sdg3205]

My thermostat housing has sprung a leak before too. Tightening the 2 bolts did nothing. Very odd. Usually the seals corrode nicely into a bulletproof water barrier. I used a new seal and RTV to ensure it stayed leak free.

If your gauge is intermittent check all your connections from the sensors, bulkhead, and binnacle harness. Clean them very well. Even the printed circuit board GENTLY.

[DMC5180]

The volt gauge problem is likely Bad connection on the back of the instrument cluster. The binnacle(pod) has to come out in order to clean and tighten connections. Both LH gauges share a common ground. If it was a feed issue it would likely only effect one gauge.


Dennis

[Lwanmtr]

Were the belts bad? why did they replace them?

[DMC5180]

If you loose the LH gauges also check the LH signal indicator and headlight high beam indicator. They all share the same ground trace. If those are also not working it points you to a Ground Issue.


Dennis

[DaraSue]

Were the belts bad? why did they replace them?

They thought they'd gotten damaged by all the antifreeze dripping on them (this time and during my misadventures in Wyoming). I figured it wouldn't hurt to swap them with the DMC ones anyway, since I wasn't sure what kind the seller had put in and I've heard some horror stories about aftermarket ones.


If you loose the LH gauges also check the LH signal indicator and headlight high beam indicator. They all share the same ground trace. If those are also not working it points you to a Ground Issue.


Hmm, I'll have to look into that. I didn't have occasion to use the high beams since this started happening and I can't remember if I used the left turn signal but it's hard to see the indicators from where I sit in relation to the steering wheel so if I used it and it didn't come on, I might not have noticed.

The ending to this story: I thought it was good to go after doing all that work, but then when I stopped at the rest stop halfway home, it was spraying antifreeze everywhere. It wasn't just dripping, there was a stream of it coming from the right side of the thermostat housing and more coming from the other side by the hose and some leaking from the seam around the middle of it. At that point I had AAA tow it back to SLC. At least I still haven't used my 200-mile tow yet...

It still had at least 1/3 of the overflow bottle left so I don't think I lost a ton of coolant but it was definitely worse than last time. The weird thing is, I didn't see a trail of it where I'd pulled into the rest stop, so it was almost like it only started leaking when I stopped.

Trying to keep a positive attitude and tell myself that at least it didn't happen in the middle of nowhere on the way to Vegas...

[DMCMW Dave]

What did the thermostat gasket installed on the road a couple of weeks ago look like? It should be a c-shaped ring that grabs the outside edge of the thermostat. If it's a simple o-ring it would probably leak. Not sure what's in a NAPA thermostat box.

[DaraSue]

What did the thermostat gasket installed on the road a couple of weeks ago look like? It should be a c-shaped ring that grabs the outside edge of the thermostat. If it's a simple o-ring it would probably leak. Not sure what's in a NAPA thermostat box.

Not sure. I'll have them save it when they change it out so that others can learn from my mistakes... :banghead:

[Lwanmtr]

Sounding like your car has developed over active bladder....hehe. But seriously, glad you've been able to catch it before you ended up overheating and damaging the engine.

All part of the shakedown period...looking forward to mine (sorta)...hehe.

[DaraSue]

Sounding like your car has developed over active bladder....hehe. But seriously, glad you've been able to catch it before you ended up overheating and damaging the engine.

All part of the shakedown period...looking forward to mine (sorta)...hehe.

Yeah, Mike said it was possible that it had only leaked on shutdown because that's when you have high temps + no airflow or coolant flow. In retrospect I'd been thinking it felt hot around the back after I'd get home from work (about 12 miles) for a while, but since I never saw any visible leaks I didn't pay enough attention to it and thought maybe I was imagining things. Live and learn...

[Lwanmtr]

Well the car will be a lil warm in the back, cause thats where the engine is 8) (had to...hehe)

Coulda been a developing issue until it finally just gave out, which is why you didnt see it at first.

[DaraSue]

Well the car will be a lil warm in the back, cause thats where the engine is 8) (had to...hehe)

Coulda been a developing issue until it finally just gave out, which is why you didnt see it at first.

Nobody likes a smartass, son. :tongue_stick:

But yeah, kicking myself 5ever for not getting the thermostat swapped when I'd originally planned to. Arrgh.

They haven't started on it yet at the shop but when I went over yesterday to drop off the thermostat (which I'd spaced and forgotten to bring on my trip, which probably could have solved half my problems) I checked the turn signal and brights and neither turn signal worked, but the bright indicator came on. Something else that may be related, after I got it off the flatbed, my fuel gauge was reading close to empty and the gas light was on. Can't remember what the oil pressure was doing but that one had previously been working AFAIK. I thought maybe the float had gotten stuck since it was at a pretty steep angle going on and off the truck and I didn't smell gas or anything to indicate that it had leaked. Anybody have any ideas?

[DMC5180]

The fuel is forward in the tank. A steep nose up angle can make it come on.

Just to be clear, both signal indicators did not work? Was the key ON? Did you hear the signal relay clicking?


Dennis

[DMCMW Dave]

Turn the four-way flasher on and off. If that sticks slightly it will kill the turn signals.

[DaraSue]

The fuel is forward in the tank. A steep nose up angle can make it come on.

Just to be clear, both signal indicators did not work? Was the key ON? Did you hear the signal relay clicking?


Neither one worked. It was on to the first notch (accessories) but I hadn't started the engine. The headlights worked. I didn't hear the relay clicking.


Turn the four-way flasher on and off. If that sticks slightly it will kill the turn signals.

I called them yesterday and told them to check that. They're still in the process of taking the thermostat housing apart. The suspense is killing me...

[DMC5180]

Neither one worked. It was on to the first notch (accessories) but I hadn't started the engine. The headlights worked. I didn't hear the relay clicking.


The Key must be in the Run (ON) position for turn signals to Work. The Hazard switch, however, has a LIVE feed and can be turned ON anytime. When checking these functions, also be sure to verify the external lights too.

[DaraSue]

The Key must be in the Run (ON) position for turn signals to Work. The Hazard switch, however, has a LIVE feed and can be turned ON anytime. When checking these functions, also be sure to verify the external lights too.

I called the shop to let them know, but they said it's that way in all cars. I'd never really had occasion to think about it before, heh.

The good news is there wasn't permanent damage to the thermostat housing, and the mechanic concurred with Dave's theory that the o-ring just wasn't up to snuff. The bad news is, while they were messing with it they found the lines going out toward the front of the car were corroded and on the way to collapse, so now I have to wait for those. Plus the minor oil leak from the valve cover gasket was getting on the exhaust so I'm having that fixed too, before I end up with another Extra-Crispy D.


Trying to think of this as a blessing in disguise since at least it didn't happen on my way to Vegas...

[Rich]

I called the shop to let them know...the minor oil leak from the valve cover gasket was getting on the exhaust so I'm having that fixed too....

A "while in there" note:
Would like to suggest that since the engine needs the valve clearances checked/adjusted every 30K miles you consider having the shop do that when the valve cover is off. Do the non-leaking side, too. Gasket, valve adjustment and all.

If there are records showing that the last valve clearance check wasn't too many miles ago then forget I mentioned this.

[DaraSue]

A "while in there" note:
Would like to suggest that since the engine needs the valve clearances checked/adjusted every 30K miles you consider having the shop do that when the valve cover is off. Do the non-leaking side, too. Gasket, valve adjustment and all.

If there are records showing that the last valve clearance check wasn't too many miles ago then forget I mentioned this.

Yeah, the original owner pretty much never did anything to it. I called the shop and had them put that on the list. It's coming up on 23k so it probably would have been another year or so anyway. Thanks!

[Lwanmtr]

In that case, good idea they're going through it all.

[DaraSue]

In that case, good idea they're going through it all.

Yeah, I think I might have driven it more miles in the last month than it's been driven in the last 20 years. It's got an oil change sticker from 1987!

[Lwanmtr]

Woohoo! Thats more of a service history than i have, prior to me getting her, anyway....lol

[DaraSue]

Update: 3 weeks and $2100 later, I have my car back! :partyhat:

They ended up replacing the water pump, rear coolant pipes/Y-pipe, the thermostat, the valve cover gaskets, the intake manifold gaskets, cleaning the VOD and doing the valve adjustment. They wanted to replace the valve seals (which would have been another few weeks and $1500-2000) but Mike and Dave didn't think it needed to be done right now since it's not smoking heavily or consuming oil so I skipped it for now.

The gauge issue did turn out to be grounding, and after he cleaned all the contacts it seems to be working fine now.

Interestingly, the NAPA thermostat I had in there did have the O-ring that fit around the edge, not a flat one, so the other stuff may have just been coincidence and not actually related to that. They said the pipes they replaced were corroded all to crap and ready to collapse. I'll call it lucky that all of it happened when I was still within AAA free tow distance of home and not exactly at the midpoint between here and Vegas or in the middle of Nebraska somewhere!

46761467624676346764

[Lwanmtr]

Yaay to having your car back :)

$2100 is alot, but its good to have new stuff in there anyway. And now hopefully you wont have any more major issues crop up.

[DaraSue]

Well, the dead gauges are back. They don't actually seem to be related to anything else because I ran it out to Wendover tonight and it was fine the whole way out AFAIK, no coolant leaks like last time, but on the way back, just past the rest stop where I got towed back from last time, the volt gauge went dead and the temp gauge was creeping up to the 220 point. Is that just where it goes when there's no power to it? If so that's a load off, because it probably means the last time it didn't actually get that hot.

I pulled over at a no-services exit and checked that there weren't any leaks and the belts were still attached and moving, and when everything looked OK I pressed on to the next gas station, poked around and couldn't find any glaring issues in the fusebox or the wiring that I could see. A guy in a work truck had stopped for a smoke break and offered to follow me back to civilization so we went on, and when I started up again it worked seemingly normally until just as we were getting back to SLC. I pulled over at a truck stop to let it cool off for about 1/2 an hour just in case, and then like magic when I started up again it was working.

I couldn't get a hold of my mechanic b/c it was 9:00 at night but I'll call him tomorrow to see what he actually did. I don't see a notation on the service order that he removed the dash to clean behind it. I guess that's the next thing to try, unless anybody has any better ideas?

[Lwanmtr]

I couldn't get a hold of my mechanic b/c it was 9:00 at night but I'll call him tomorrow to see what he actually did. I don't see a notation on the service order that he removed the dash to clean behind it. I guess that's the next thing to try, unless anybody has any better ideas?

Have you tried spinning in a circle chanting the lyrics to Weird Al's White n Nerdy?

Electrical issues are often the most fun to track down...Hope you can find it.

[DMC5180]

When you say both gauges went dead. What exactly did the needles do? Was it consistent each time?

A few years ago I had a wonky coolant gauge issue. It was the first time I had powered up the car after winter hiatus. The coolant gauge needle started reading backwards. It went CCW to about the 3:30 position. In the end, I pulled the cluster out and cleaned every copper contact points on the flexible PC with a q-tip and Tarn-x. I did the same with all the Bulb holders and securing nuts for the Gauges themselves.
I put it all back in and everything was fixed. 33 years of oxidation cleaned away. Now that Delorean Europe has New manufactured PC's I may replace mine. Their are some traces that were popped loose and a few connector tabs lifting.


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[DaraSue]

Have you tried spinning in a circle chanting the lyrics to Weird Al's White n Nerdy?

Electrical issues are often the most fun to track down...Hope you can find it.

Ha... at this point I'm open to all possibilities!

Now that I know it's not apparently indicative of my car being about to explode/brick itself, I'm debating whether I hope I get my medical cert back in time to go to work tonight, or just take sick leave and drive to Vegas for... troubleshooting purposes...


When you say both gauges went dead. What exactly did the needles do? Was it consistent each time?


The volt gauge goes to the 7:00 position, below the lowest tick on the left side. That seems to happen fairly quickly, because I'd been keeping an eye on it and AFAICR it was fine and then a few minutes later it was dead. The temp gauge creeps up to the 220 (9:00) point more slowly - when I noticed the volt needle was down, I think it was about halfway between the 160 and 220 marks, which was the highest I'd seen it since getting it back from the shop, and by the time I got to the gas station it was maybe two needlewidths below the 220 mark.

I thought maybe that was its neutral position but I looked just now and it's stopped around the 160 mark, which was where it was when I got home last night.

What it did this time(s) was the same thing I noticed the last time (when I ended up getting a ride home on a tow truck) but I can't be sure how many other times it's happened. I'd noticed the temp gauge getting close to 220 when I was on my way home from work a couple times prior to the Coolantpocalypse of last month but if the volt gauge crapped out at the same time, I didn't notice it. I can't normally see that one through the steering wheel from where I sit in relation to the dash so it's possible it did it and I just didn't notice.

[DMC5180]

The temp gauge will range between the White line(160) and 220 whenever in stop N go driving or slow traffic. If you're running the A/C you will typically see it in the higher level too. As long as you don't see the needle go over 220 without hearing the fans run it's pretty much a normal driving condition.


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[DaraSue]

The temp gauge will range between the White line(160) and 220 whenever in stop N go driving or slow traffic. If you're running the A/C you will typically see it in the higher level too. As long as you don't see the needle go over 220 without hearing the fans run it's pretty much a normal driving condition.


The last two times that I've noticed it happening were at highway speeds (around 70mph), after about 40 miles of driving. The other times it might have happened but I'm not sure, it was as I was getting off the freeway and onto the surface roads coming home from work (about 10 mi highway, about 1 mi on the surface).

When it happened on my first Wendover trip, I can't remember if I first noticed it when I was on the freeway but it definitely continued after I'd been stopped for a while and then drove the last 10 miles into town (still on the freeway). I definitely remember the next morning it seemed normal but then started acting up again as I was on surface roads looking for a garage. I think it continued on the attempt to drive home.

Last time I still had the NAPA thermostat in, but I've since replaced it with a DMC one (and it turned out the NAPA one actually did have a grooved O-ring, so the rest of the issues may have just been coincidence). When I was having the overheat issues with the thermostat it came with, it got above the 220 line but I haven't seen it do that yet with either new thermostat.

[DaraSue]

Well, I guess I spoke too soon on the "no leaks". Tonight I drove it to work and when I came out for my dinner break I found a puddle under the car on the passenger's side. Pumped it with the pressure tester and tightened the clamp on that hose, but another leak sprung on the drivers side of the engine compartment. That hose had two clamps, the forward one a T-clamp and the rear one a worm clamp, but the leak was coming from the end with the T-clamp. Tried tightening both clamps to no avail, tried loosening and moving the T-clamp and replacing it with a worm clamp and that made it worse. I saw fluid running from near the top of the pipe where it joined the hose so I'm wondering if there's some crud in there that's making it not seal right. Eventually I gave up and just got a ride home but I'm planning on driving my other car back tomorrow and seeing what else I can do with it.

- Do I need to wait longer for it to cool before pressure-testing? It had sat for about 2-1/2 hours after a 15 minute drive and I pumped it to around 12-13 before the plunger started really resisting.

- If I wrap it with silicone tape would that hold it until I drove it back to the shop? (About 7 miles on the highway).

- What are the clamps supposed to be torqued to?

Counting my blessings that this didn't happen in the middle of nowhere and that I didn't try to go to Vegas after all, but still... arrrrgh!

[Lwanmtr]

Ouchie... Sounds like you're really being tested.

You didn't do the chant, did ya...hehe.

Only things I could say are bad hose, bent or warped metal pipe not allowing the hose to seal all the way....most unlikely would some sort of transdimensional hole thats letting fluid pass.

[Bitsyncmaster]

I use ABA hose clamps and the recommended torque is 35 to 45 inch lbs. That is really a lot more torque than you think you do without a torque wrench. Don't think the cheap hose clamps can take that much torque.

When I first got my car, I noticed the coolant pipes near the engine had very bad pitting under the old hose locations. I ended up replacing all my coolant pipes with NOS pipes and had them powder coated.

http://www.ultimategarage.com/abaprice.html

[DMC-81]

Hi DaraSue,

Like Dave alluded to, I would check for corrosion on the coolant pipes (in the area where the rubber hose goes over them), as they are relatively thin. I don't think a T type of clamp is stock so maybe that was changed to address a similar problem in the past?

I used this torque guide when I replaced my coolant hoses, as the DMC kit had the original Norma Torro clamp style:

http://www.normagroup.com/norma.nsf/res/NORMACLAMP_TORRO_en.pdf/$file/NORMACLAMP_TORRO_en.pdf

All the sizes on the car call for 3.0Nm +0.5Nm.
3.0 Nm = 26.55 inch lbs and 0.5 Nm =4.43 inch lbs.

I would recommend checking all the coolant pipes and replacing all the hoses that haven't been done for maximum reliability, especially since you tend to drive the car long distances.

Good luck with the repair.

[DMC5180]

Well, I guess I spoke too soon on the "no leaks". Tonight I drove it to work and when I came out for my dinner break I found a puddle under the car on the passenger's side.

- Do I need to wait longer for it to cool before pressure-testing? It had sat for about 2-1/2 hours after a 15 minute drive and I pumped it to around 12-13 before the plunger started really resisting.

- If I wrap it with silicone tape would that hold it until I drove it back to the shop? (About 7 miles on the highway).

- What are the clamps supposed to be torqued to?

Counting my blessings that this didn't happen in the middle of nowhere and that I didn't try to go to Vegas after all, but still... arrrrgh!

1. 2-1/2 hours is plenty off time for the engine to cool.

2. Safe too drive 7 miles? Yes, just top up the coolant level first. By top up, I mean the header tank about 1/3 rd full.
Skip the silicone tape. I'm assuming your leak is a drip as opposed to a stream. Your leak, in this case, was caused by high pressure you put into the system. Yes it should not leak period, but for the short drive to the shop you could leave the cap loose too, any pressure will just vent out the top.
I had to do this myself once due to a broken filler cap neck (plastic tank) I was 4 hours from home. The drive back was fine.

3. 45 inch lbs torque is a safe average.
(Top of one spec and bottom of the other).


The presence of the T-clap makes me suspicious as why that was put there. You may have excessive corrosion on that clamp joint.

Post a couple photos of that along with the leak puddle.





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[SS Spoiler]

Jus' a thought, would JB weld work to fill
bad pitting on alum pipe ends?....

[DMC5180]

Jus' a thought, would JB weld work to fill
bad pitting on alum pipe ends?....

As filler with proper prep and sanding after application, it could be viable. As a general rule, I don't like using band-aid repairs if replacement parts are available for long term reliability.


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[DaraSue]

Thanks, guys. I didn't think to take any pics last night but the pipe actually looked new and I'd just had a bunch of work done to replace corroded coolant pipes. My mechanic wanted to replace all the clamps with T-clamps but conferring with DMCMW they didn't think it was necessary to take everything apart just to replace the clamps so I split the difference and told him to just do the T-clamps on the fittings he was working on anyway. Ironically it now seems to only be the T-clamps that are leaking. :banghead:

IDK, am I making things too complicated and if it only leaks when I pressurize it, is the solution to not pressurize it? I've got an aftermarket coolant bottle on it, is it possible that my system is somehow supposed to have lower than standard pressure?

[DMC5180]

IDK, am I making things too complicated and if it only leaks when I pressurize it, is the solution to not pressurize it? I've got an aftermarket coolant bottle on it, is it possible that my system is somehow supposed to have lower than standard pressure?

No, your not making things more complicated. The system should be able to hold 15 psi which is the Cap rating. The typical operating pressure is probably half of that though.

No, the new header bottle has no bearing system pressure rating. 15PSI was pretty much the standard for years. Nowadays, some manufacturers spec even higher cap pressures. 20+ psi. Others still use Closed systems (non pressure vent cap) I had a mid 80s Audi with a closed cap system.

FWIW, none of the DMC service and restoration businesses use T-clamps.



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[DaraSue]

all right, I'm making progress. I couldn't find my 8mm bit last night so I was trying to tighten the new clamp with a screwdriver, but I came back today with a torque wrench and found the bit buried in the bottom of my toolbag and tightened it some more. It dripped a little when I pumped it up to 13 but nowhere near as bad as it was last night. I tightened it a little more and it seems to be holding.

There wasn't much room to move the torque wrench along that side but I think I got it up around 40.

[DaraSue]

46847

this is the hose, btw

[Lwanmtr]

Looks fine from here...hehe.

Glad its not leaking as much....Might still be a good idea to check for awful corrosion on the pipe too.

[DMC-81]

I just want to provide caution on the clamp torque. The original clamps are Norma (Torro). Per the torque chart in the link above, the breakaway torque is 4.5 Nm, or 39.83 inch lbs. I would recommend staying below that, unless you have a different type of hose clamp.

[DaraSue]

Most of the clamps I was tightening were the new T-clamps, and one that I got at a mini-mart on the road back from Chicago. I realize that one's probably cheap and crappy. I'll probably drop it off at the mechanic's again while I go on vacation. I'll check the torque on the one worm clamp that I messed with, that was already there.

It held 13 psi for the hour before my shift started and didn't noticeably leak for the hour and a half before I got my first break, and I drove it for a few miles on my break with no apparent issues, so hopefully it holds together long enough for me to get home, take it to the car wash, drive around to dry the undercarriage off and then get back to the shop...

[DMCMW Dave]

BTW you should always have a few extra clamps around. If you overtighten a conventional worm clamp, (easy to do if using a ratchet) the strap will strip and it will go suddenly completely loose, and will be unable to be retightened. If this happens you need to replace the clamp Right Now.

[David T]

BTW you should always have a few extra clamps around. If you overtighten a conventional worm clamp, (easy to do if using a ratchet) the strap will strip and it will go suddenly completely loose, and will be unable to be retightened. If this happens you need to replace the clamp Right Now.

In my experience with leaks if you try to tighten up a clamp to stop a leak you wind up breaking the clamp. Unless the clamp is very loose and just a little tightening does it you should remove the hose, clean the pipe, use a bit of sealer and put it back together. On a Delorean there is another problem. The aluminum develops pinholes. The fix is to get a longer hose and cover them up or replace the pipes. When you have a leak the anti-freeze tries to stop the leak and you get a crusty build up that will prevent you from getting a good seal with a hose clamp. You have to remove that crust. About the only time you should have to tighten a hose clamp is when you put new hoses on. After the first couple of heating and cooling cycles the hoses take a set and you are able to tighten the hose clamps a little.

[DaraSue]

It didn't leak significantly overnight. I drove it to the carwash, took the long way home and then back to the shop. I'm leaving it while I'm on vacation so they can take another look at those connections. Hopefully at minimal cost to me.

I'd been thinking I'd rather have stayed home and driven down to SoCal this week. Good thing I didn't try that yet, lol.

[Lwanmtr]

Good idea...Im sure they can sort it all out.

Of course, if you had driven, it coulda been another adventure (not that i ever play devils advocate)..hehe.

[DaraSue]

Well, I got back from vacation yesterday, picked it up from the shop, mechanic said a couple of the clamps had worked loose but it was holding 15 psi now and all was well. I drove it home, then to work today, everything seemed fine...

...until my 3rd break, when I noticed another blotch of antifreeze on the passenger side. Arrrgh!

It wasn't a huge leak so I'm not going to mess with it in the parking lot this time, but is there any significance to the fact that it didn't start dripping until it had been sitting for a couple hours? I definitely didn't see anything on my first breaks, b/c I was checking. I tried to tighten the clamp, but it was hard to reach and it didn't seem to have much play in it. It doesn't look like it leaked much more in the last couple hours but idk if it's because I actually fixed it or just because it stopped on its own, as they've sometimes done.

The hoses and pipes are new. Picture to follow, if my phone cooperates.

[DaraSue]

47149

[DMC-81]

Well, I got back from vacation yesterday, picked it up from the shop, mechanic said a couple of the clamps had worked loose but it was holding 15 psi now and all was well. I drove it home, then to work today, everything seemed fine...

...until my 3rd break, when I noticed another blotch of antifreeze on the passenger side. Arrrgh!

It wasn't a huge leak so I'm not going to mess with it in the parking lot this time, but is there any significance to the fact that it didn't start dripping until it had been sitting for a couple hours? I definitely didn't see anything on my first breaks, b/c I was checking. I tried to tighten the clamp, but it was hard to reach and it didn't seem to have much play in it. It doesn't look like it leaked much more in the last couple hours but idk if it's because I actually fixed it or just because it stopped on its own, as they've sometimes done.

The hoses and pipes are new. Picture to follow, if my phone cooperates.

From the picture, that clamp looks like it is pinching the rubber hose and causing it to pull away from the aluminum pipe at the screw. I would ask your mechanic if it is a proper rubber hose clamp.

[DaraSue]

From the picture, that clamp looks like it is pinching the rubber hose and causing it to pull away from the aluminum pipe at the screw. I would ask your mechanic if it is a proper rubber hose clamp.

He recommended switching to this style of clamp (t-bolt) with the assertion that they would be less prone to leak than the older worm-style ones. So far that... has not proven to be the case. :banghead:

The leak didn't appear to get worse for the rest of the night at work, but when I got home I think there was some dripping (I have cardboard on the floor of my garage and I noticed a wet spot in about the same location). Still jet-lagged so I'm not going to do anything more with it tonight, but I put my Motel 6 ice bucket under the leaky hose to see if it catches anything overnight. I stopped to get some jack stands and chocks on my way home, but I might have to work on it in the parking lot at work tomorrow after all (or more likely Monday, since I've got a shift early enough to get the bus home if it doesn't go well) because my garage is not-level enough that I can roll out of it in neutral so I'm thinking maybe I don't want to try to jack it up in there?

I can reach it without lifting the car but the bolt is toward the driver's side so it's awkward to try to turn it. If I could loosen it enough to move it and stick another clamp on, that was what worked the last time. The saga continues...

(Oh, another thing, when I mentioned this to one of the car guys at work, he said T-bolt clamps can pinch aluminum pipes and cause leaks. Is that the reason they aren't commonly used on these cars?)

[Lwanmtr]

I've never seen those kind of clamps on any car I've had. I could see how it could deform the hose without compressing it correctly.

Hope you get it to stop being all leaky.

[DMC5180]

There is no reason to have doubled clamps on any of the hose couplings. It's also not uncommon to need to retighten coolant clamps after the system has been heat cycled with new hoses. This is the main reason OEMs use spring type constant force clamps. They expand and contract as needed with temperature change. I don't recall ever seeing one leak on any of my daily drivers.


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[DaraSue]

It leaked a little more overnight. Not a ton, but probably about 1/3 cup of fluid. Guess I know what I'm doing before work today, unless I decide to be lazy and just drag it back to the mechanic tomorrow. But I wanted to drive it today, *sigh*...

The settling-in process that Dennis and David mentioned... how long is that supposed to take? The guy I bought it from had replaced all the easily-accessible hoses, and as far as I ever noticed, it didn't leak the whole way home from Chicago. I had that one hose that was bent at a weird angle replaced in Sept, then a couple more hoses and pipes replaced after everything blew up on my first trip to Wendover about a week afterward. After I got it back from the shop that time I drove it out to Wendover and back again (about 200 miles round trip) but it didn't leak then, just at work two days later.

[DMC5180]

Settle-in or the technical name (cold flow) is when the rubber takes a permanent set leaving the impression of the clamp in the material. Silicone hose is much more resistant to cold flow settling but can have some after a long period of compression. It can very greatly in the amount of time it takes to set. If I recall correctly, the offending hose is one that was just replaced because of the kinked hose, so that one has much less drive time than the others. It should also be noted that if all clamps were torqued with a torque wrench vs by feel, the leaking would be less likely to happen after initial tightening. Also different types of clamps require different torques. I have know idea what the recommended torque is for those T-clamps.


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[DMC-81]

It leaked a little more overnight. Not a ton, but probably about 1/3 cup of fluid. Guess I know what I'm doing before work today, unless I decide to be lazy and just drag it back to the mechanic tomorrow. But I wanted to drive it today, *sigh*...

The settling-in process that Dennis and David mentioned... how long is that supposed to take? The guy I bought it from had replaced all the easily-accessible hoses, and as far as I ever noticed, it didn't leak the whole way home from Chicago. I had that one hose that was bent at a weird angle replaced in Sept, then a couple more hoses and pipes replaced after everything blew up on my first trip to Wendover about a week afterward. After I got it back from the shop that time I drove it out to Wendover and back again (about 200 miles round trip) but it didn't leak then, just at work two days later.

In my experience, done properly with a torque wrench, you shouldn't have to go around the car tightening clamps after installation. I completely replaced my coolant hoses with new rubber hoses and new OEM clamps. The proper torque is tighter than you can do by "feel", and the breakaway torque is not much higher than the tightening torque. I think that is why clamps installed by feel need further tightening. Then you risk breaking them.

After installing my hoses, the car held 15 psi all night, without dropping a hair. I didn't break or strip any clamp. That was last summer, and I have not experienced any leaks since. I shudder to think that I would need to go back into the VOD to tighten clamps.

I know that some people (maybe even mechanics) frown on the idea of using a torque wrench on a hose clamp, but that's what the manufacturer of the clamps specify, and it worked for me.

Just my opinion. Best of luck with your repair. I hope you won't have to chase constant leaks. That's no fun :(

[Bitsyncmaster]

In my experience, done properly with a torque wrench, you shouldn't have to go around the car tightening clamps after installation. I completely replaced my coolant hoses with new rubber hoses and new OEM clamps. The proper torque is tighter than you can do by "feel", and the breakaway torque is not much higher than the tightening torque. I think that is why clamps installed by feel need further tightening. Then you risk breaking them.

After installing my hoses, the car held 15 psi all night, without dropping a hair. I didn't break or strip any clamp. That was last summer, and I have not experienced any leaks since. I shudder to think that I would need to go back into the VOD to tighten clamps.

I know that some people (maybe even mechanics) frown on the idea of using a torque wrench on a hose clamp, but that's what the manufacturer of the clamps specify, and it worked for me.

Just my opinion. Best of luck with your repair. I hope you won't have to chase constant leaks. That's no fun :(

+1
You can not even get half the required torque with a screw driver. It would be very hard to judge using the socket wrench.

[DMC5180]

+1
You can not even get half the required torque with a screw driver. It would be very hard to judge using the socket wrench.

+1

I recently needed to torque something at work to 40 inch lbs using a torque screwdriver. It was ridiculously hard to twist that much with my wrist. Now compare that with the effort required using the leverage of a normal torque wrench and it would seem effortless.


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[DaraSue]

Things everybody probably already knew except me: when changing hose clamps, put the new one in position and partially tighten it BEFORE you take the old one off. :banghead: Good thing the clothes I was wearing were pretty much ready for the scrap heap already. My cats are really interested in my sleeves now...

Well, that was probably 10 times more aggravation than it needed to be, but I got the clamp changed. Fortunately I kept the original suspension so I could fit enough of my head and shoulders under there to do it without using the jack. I torqued it to between 30 and 40 (with the car on the floor it was hard to get a good angle to turn it and read it) but it didn't leak when I pumped it to 13 so if it's still holding in another hour I'll call it good and wash the antifreeze out of my hair.

On the plus side at least my antifreeze is looking slightly less like apple cider these days.
47178

(For comparison, here's what I was dumping out of it (http://dmctalk.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=46029&d=1472620289)on the way back from Chicago...)

[Lwanmtr]

Apple cider...yummm...hehe

[SS Spoiler]

How about a nice selfie?.....

[DMC5180]

How about a nice selfie?.....

I think DaraSue would prefer a little anonymity for now.

Let's stay on topic.


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[refugeefromcalif]

I think DaraSue would prefer a little anonymity for now.

Sometimes we all do...

George

[DaraSue]

I didn't take any pix of my incredibly fetching pajamas/car repair outfit, but here is an incredibly lifelike artist's rendition of me trying to fasten a clamp around a hose that was leaking half a gallon of antifreeze:

:rant:

Seriously though, there was still about a teaspoon of leakage when I checked it again so I gave the clamp another couple turns with the torque wrench and it's held all day including the drive to work with a stop at Costco on the way, and a road test to the library and an exit up the freeway on my dinner break. Crossing my fingers that this particular issue is whipped for now...

[Lwanmtr]

Here's to hoping that solved your problem :)

[Bob635]

Dara,

Did you ever make it to Las Vegas? Are you in town right now? There is a shop on the west side that works on DeLoreans. We could try to get some of the LV D owners and meet up with you for some fun.

Bob

[DaraSue]

Here's to hoping that solved your problem :)

No more leakage this morning, so I'm cautiously optimistic. :)


Did you ever make it to Las Vegas? Are you in town right now? There is a shop on the west side that works on DeLoreans. We could try to get some of the LV D owners and meet up with you for some fun.


I never did, although I'm thinking of heading down there for a test drive next week, if my car continues to behave itself. :p

Is the shop Lost in the 50s? I know another guy down there who recommended them.

[DaraSue]

Does anyone have a picture of the plug that runs the left-hand gauges? The dead temp and voltage gauges are back after a day of driving around. Strangely my service manual doesn't seem to have a wiring diagram for those. I'm sitting in a Cabela's parking lot trying to look under the dash and see if anything's visibly amiss but I'm not exactly sure what I'm looking at. Are the connectors on the back of the gauges something I can see without taking the binnacle apart?

(I was trying to save that project for the winter since the issue's been intermittent but it's getting pretty annoying...)

[DMC5180]

No, they are not visible without removing the cluster binnacle. Although the gauges may flake out on you, you are fine driving it. As long as the batt light doesn't come on, you are charging. As far as the coolant temps go, if you did not see any abnormalities in temp with working gauges, the likelihood of you having a problem is low. Heck nowadays some cars don't even display that info anymore. It's just warning lights.

Your fine to drive home from cabelas.

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[Rich]

Does anyone have a picture of the plug that runs the left-hand gauges? The dead temp and voltage gauges are back after a day of driving around....are the connectors on the back of the gauges something I can see without taking the binnacle apart?

Yes. Photo of the flex circuit on the back of the instrument cluster is here: http://www.specialtauto.com/delorean-parts/images/dash-rear.jpg

Get a mirror up under there and you can see it.

The connector that runs the (+) side of the left side gauges is the one that fits into the socket at the upper right of the circuit (as viewed toward driver in photo). It also carries the ground for those gauges, shared with the ground for the seat belt and door ajar lights. Are those working?

You might want to invest in the poster-size wiring diagram for this and future work: http://store.delorean.com/p-9202-wiring-diagram-lg.aspx

[DaraSue]

I made it home, stopping every 10 miles to make sure I hadn't actually blown a radiator hose or snapped the alternator belt. Last time this happened it would start working again after I'd stopped for 1/2 hour-45 mins, but I didn't get that lucky this time. At my last stop I checked the seat belt and door open lights and they weren't working either, so that's another piece of the puzzle.

If I take the binnacle apart, how big of a job is it? I really wanted to try and get down to Vegas next week, but it makes me nervous to drive it like this.

[DMC5180]

It can be removed easily if your familiar with the process. But it can be a tedious job if your not. I could walk you through it step by step.

My question for you is are you comfortable sliding your head upside down under the dash?



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[DaraSue]

It can be removed easily if your familiar with the process. But it can be a tedious job if your not. I could walk you through it step by step.

My question for you is are you comfortable sliding your head upside down under the dash?


Well, I guess if I can squeeze under the back of the car, this shouldn't be too much worse ;) The main thing I'd be worried would be breaking something. I've done electronics work before, but never on anything I would have been heartbroken to lose.

I don't want to make you reinvent the wheel for my sake - I found this how-to guide, do you concur with his advice? http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?5085-How-To-Binnacle-Removal-and-Bulb-Replacement

Also I've seen people talk about cleaning the contacts with sandpaper. What grit? I think the finest I have around here is 1000, although I have some nail-buffers (not files, pads that put a shine on your nails), and maybe those would work. Or clean them with something else?

(Oh, here's this one, too: http://www.dmcnews.com/Techsection/dashboard.html )

[DMC5180]

The second write up is a better guide and explains things in greater detail. I'd follow that one. One thing the second one does not do is have you remove the seat (four 13 mm nuts ) under the car. It really makes working under the dash much easier if the seat is out. One other item that was not explained well is how to release the speedo cable from the cluster. You simply press forward on the release tab around the end of the cable end and it will slide off the speedo. You don't need to unscrew the cable from the lambda counter.


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[DaraSue]

Success!

When I finally got the binnacle loose and pulled the connectors out, I found that one of the pins (?) in the plug was jammed back in its little slot, as if the wire had been pulled on. It was the green one third from the top in this pic: 47240 I pushed the wire forward and it sprung back into position. In addition, the metallic strip in the socket where this pin would have attached was pulled loose and wrinkled. I smoothed it down and plugged the harness back in and presto! I had my gauges back.

How important are the washers on the two 7mm nuts on either side of the steering column? I somehow lost one of them on the floor of my car.

[Lwanmtr]

Great! Always nice when you can find that its something simple (even though it takes a bit of work to find it).

I couldnt say for sure about the washer, but it could be one of those universe collapsing things...

[DMC5180]

The thing to do now is temporarily set the binnicle cluster back in place but don't secure it all down. Take the car out for a drive on bumpy road if you have those out there. Do a literal shake down drive. If no issues pop up finish the installation and then call it a success. But hay now that you've been in there you know what to do later for bulb replacements and such.

The little washer you lost could under a floor mat or landed on you while you were under there. The washer is needed if the hole the threaded stud comes through is elongated. I'm sure you could find something to work at a hardware store.


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[DaraSue]

I already put it mostly back together, but doing it in reverse took a lot less time than taking it apart the first time so I think I've kind of got the hang of it now. I'd taken it around the loop in my complex a couple times while I was putting the connectors back together (took a couple tries to get the speedo cable back on right) and everything seemed to be working but I'm going to drive it back up to my friend's house tonight and the 215 is like driving on the surface of the moon, so we'll see what happens. Thanks for your help, everybody!

[DMC5180]

Woo hoo, you can do it [emoji3]


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[DMC5180]

In case you weren't aware, that green wire (terminal 9) is the +12v feed for the left side of the cluster. That backed out terminal was almost certainly the problem. YOU fixed it. Enjoy your worry free trip the Vegas.




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[DaraSue]

I drove up to my friend's house for dinner (35 miles each way), and had no more issues with the gauges. It's not necessarily conclusive since last time they acted up it was 50 miles into the return trip from Wendover, but it's a good sign. As long as nothing else craps out in the next week, I'll feel pretty good about heading down to Vegas. :partyhat:

[Lwanmtr]

Awesome. Hopefully there's no more mishaps