What's best way to make brakes stop better?

[Redsquall]

Hey Guys
I went from a 350Z to a D. Previous owner redid brakes. They look nice and shiny. SS lines. Probably Hervey stuff.
The car brakes but it isn't like driving a modern car of course. What's the best way within reason to make them work (stop) better and without as much effort?
Some points/questions:

1) I'd get slotted rotors to help them not warp
2) There this for around $2700 ( http://www.delorean.co.uk/delorean_performance.html ) .This sounds good, but that's the cost just for parts. Trying to find something effective and less cost.
3) There's this from D-UK for $600 which seems to basically just be the slotted rotors - not sure that it helps performance? http://www.delorean.eu/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=20_144&products_id=168051
4) I hear that you can get "spacers" and then use larger pads? Hard to tell if anyone has done it and confirmed it's much better.

Any insights that are factual are appreciated :)
Thanks

[Patrick C]

I have these: http://www.delorean.eu/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=20_144&products_id=168068

Very happy with them, and much less brake fade than before.

[FABombjoy]

1. EBC Redstuff pads
2. Better tires

What you are calling "slotted" is actually "vented". Slotted or gas slotting is a different thing.

I also have the vented setup w/ spaced calipers and it's a nice upgrade for the price. It won't help you stop any faster initially but will provide for more consistent braking if you're on them a lot. IMHO skip using solid drilled/gas slotted discs and focus on pads/tires.

If price is no object and you drive hard, any of the modern rotor/caliper kits is probably an improvement but principally in unsprung weight. A big brake kit that required larger wheels would make the most difference.

[Redsquall]

Hey Patrick
I'm thinking about those. How would you describe break fade? Does it help stop faster with less effort?

How's your iPad setup doing? Ben planning on that- did you put a tutorial somewhere? Anything you'd do different?


I have these: http://www.delorean.eu/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=20_144&products_id=168068

Very happy with them, and much less brake fade than before.

[Redsquall]

Tires are new. Been hearing about those red pads - help enough to feel it? Thanks


1. EBC Redstuff pads
2. Better tires

What you are calling "slotted" is actually "vented". Slotted or gas slotting is a different thing.

I also have the vented setup w/ spaced calipers and it's a nice upgrade for the price. It won't help you stop any faster initially but will provide for more consistent braking if you're on them a lot. IMHO skip using solid drilled/gas slotted discs and focus on pads/tires.

If price is no object and you drive hard, any of the modern rotor/caliper kits is probably an improvement but principally in unsprung weight. A big brake kit that required larger wheels would make the most difference.

[FABombjoy]

Tires are new. Been hearing about those red pads - help enough to feel it? Thanks
Absolutely, but they dust more than average and will be harder on rotors. There is always a trade off.

New tires are good but what brand? Unfortunately most matching tires are mediocre and are probably the biggest obstacle in stopping quickly. I have the NLA Pilot Exalto which were among the better choices and have no problem locking them on a whim - Patrick can attest to that :D

[opethmike]

Unless you're braking hard often, brake fade isn't an issue. Brake fade comes from overheating of the pads; so I have to wonder what people are doing during street driving if they're experiencing actual brake fade?

[FABombjoy]

Tail of the Dragon? :D

I'll say that the Michigan fall tour down M119 was fun with a quick spooling turbo combined with consistent predictable brakes. Same thing to/from DCS16 through hours of 100deg Chicago stop and go.

In my naturally aspirated days I ran Axxis Ultimates on solid discs. They stopped hard but they were dusty as hell and were embarrassingly squeaky/chattery. No matter what anti-squeal magic I tried I could never get them to stop chirping. The Redstuff pads seem less outspoken.

Fluid wise I've tried Valvoline Synpower (that stuff you can get anywhere), Castrol GTMLA, ATE Super Blue/TYP 200, and currently Motul 5.1.

-The Valvoline seemed fine until the stock pistons rusted and took out the caliper seals. Pretty sure I was the first person to flush the brakes (98/99)
-GT LMA is fine but getting hard to find and is old tech.
-The ATE left my brake & clutch feeling funny, even with all new parts. Hard pedal, stopped fine but did not feel good. Couldn't get rid of it through flushing and bleeding, went back to GT LMA and had immediate improvement.
-Motul 5.1 is working well in both brake & clutch and has better specs than GT LMA. Great pedal feel and 5.1 fluids are not too hard to find anymore if you needed to top off out of town.

[Drive Stainless]

In my naturally aspirated days I ran Axxis Ultimates on solid discs. They stopped hard but they were dusty as hell and were embarrassingly squeaky/chattery. No matter what anti-squeal magic I tried I could never get them to stop chirping.

Echoes my experience to the T, Mr. Bombjoy. I would generalize to say that ceramic pads are always noisey, but my wife's Mercedes has OEM ceramic pads that don't so much as peep.

[Jonathan]

Hey Guys
I went from a 350Z to a D. Previous owner redid brakes. They look nice and shiny. SS lines. Probably Hervey stuff.
The car brakes but it isn't like driving a modern car of course. What's the best way within reason to make them work (stop) better and without as much effort?

...

Any insights that are factual are appreciated :)
Thanks

Have you ever driven a DeLorean other than your own?

The reason I ask is that while you are correct in feeling like your DeLorean does not brake as well as a modern car, you may not realize your DeLorean isn't braking as well as a typical DeLorean does.

Find another local DeLorean to drive or find another local owner to test drive your car. It may just be your master cylinder is weak or some other reasonably inexpensive problem.

That's what I would do if I was in your shoes.

[DMCVegas]

Personally, the only time I ever had issues with overheating the pads and getting brake fade was whenever I'd drop down from triple-digit speeds when coming back into the city and tried riding the brakes to gradually slowdown instead of coasting or gearing down. Citywise some new pads and especially some stainless braided Goodridge brake lines really made the difference in improved braking power. But hey, replacing 20 year old hoses and flushing out the equally ancient hydraulic fluid will instantly show a marked improvement on any car. Not necessarily because it's now a better system, but rather it finally meets it's intended factory spec again.


Hey Guys
I went from a 350Z to a D. Previous owner redid brakes. They look nice and shiny. SS lines. Probably Hervey stuff.

Hmm... That makes me wonder. I had a leaking reservoir on my Master Cylinder due to bad seals, but no one seemed to have them for sale at the time. So I ended up buying another MC from Hervey. The car after that didn't quite brake right IMO, but I also found that my original rear shocks had blown out and were leaking oil all over. So I just wrote it off as bad shocks not forcing proper contact with the tires on the road. Since then DMCH now says that their MCs are specifically biased to apply different pressures to front and back based upon the DMC-12's weight differential. Cross-reference parts just have a generic 50/50 pressure output for front and back.

Original DMC Master Cylinders should have this red zip tie around them and look like this:
http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTEzMlgxNjAw/z/lUMAAOSwnbZYFLkd/$_1.JPG

OEM-spec units from DMCH are supposed to have "DMC" cast into their sides to look like this:
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_ebNssoKPSqY/SsguJw9G0zI/AAAAAAAAAD8/8uHVwa0VzNU/s320/DSCF1518.JPG

Now, does that output bias make a huge difference? Damned if I know. At the time I had another impacting issue arise, and by the time I finish getting my car back onto the road, I will have replaced the SS braided brake lines again (15 years and counting is still too long for my tastes) and will have rebuilt the calipers and installed a DMCH unit to be sure. But if there is an OEM spec to follow, that is what I would recommend you go with.

Otherwise, learn from my lessons:

Buy OEM-spec parts instead of ones that merely fit.
Flush your brake fluids every 2 years like clockwork. It's simple with a pressurized bleeding kit.
Rebuild/replace the parts of your hydraulic system that are over 8-10 years old.
Stick with OEM Tire Sizes, and always get a "B" temperature rating. Your mileage may vary, but I found that A's tend to take way to long too heat up and never get anywhere as sticky. I spun-out twice with Yokohama AVS Intermediates (once while slowly accelerating from a dead-stop in the rain), but was able to whip the ass-end of my car back around to avoid more than one wreck with Cooper Cobras. Next time given the supply situation, I'll stick with stock tires and just eat it on the aesthetic differences of tread patterns.

[David T]

Unlike most brake systems the Delorean does not have a proportioning valve with a warning light if one system fails. If one system does fail and loses fluid the level will drop, lighting the brake light warning that something is wrong. Any proportioning is done inside the M/C and it is important because of the weight distribution and the mis-matched tire sizes. Under normal driving conditions that proportioning isn't important till you encounter an emergency situation and really apply the brakes. That is when it matters. As for "improving" the brakes, S/S hoses will give a firmer pedal because the hoses won't swell up and take some of the pedal travel. Different pads can be more aggressive but you must balance between hot and cold performance, how they work wet, and how much dust they make. Very aggressive pads will chew up the rotors. As for rotors, since the OEM ones are not ventilated the next best option is to cross-drill them. Makes them noisy. The OEM stuff was meant for street driving, if you want track performance you must accept the compromises of other different brake pads. That is the single most important "upgrade" you can do. One day of aggressive tracking and you can wear out a set of tires and brake pads easily.

[FABombjoy]

I am skeptical that cross drilled solid rotors help cool faster.

The data seems to show that drilling a solid rotor lowers its heat capacity, lowers the usable friction area, and increases the chances of stress cracking.

[DMCVegas]

I have cross-drilled rotors and I can attest to two things:


They make an AWESOME turbine sound when you press the brakes.
The damn things cracked after about 40K miles and were rendered complely useless.


Next time around I figure I'll opt for the spacers and go for the vented discs if anything. I've got ceramic pads on my truck, and why're they're great when hot, not so much in cold weather.

[Bob635]

Delorean brakes unfortunately are from a time where braking is not up to current standards. The most important thing to understand about braking is the swept area of the brake pads. The more swept area, the better the braking.

The issue of heat is the second problem. In low speed stop and go driving, brakes disc generally do not get sufficiently hot to affect brake performance. However, stop and go highway speed driving can produce very hot rooter temperatures and accompaning brake fade. I have frequently experienced this racing street cars.

DMC EU sells an upgrade package that has vented rotors and larger calipers. This will help with highway heat build up and associated brake fade.

However, if you want more braking power, you need larger rotors and larger brake pads. Generally this also means are large wheel size to fit these larger rotors. This would be especially true for the front rims.

Bob

[David T]

Once you start messing with the swept area and increasing the braking power you had better have a plan to keep the front and rear balanced or you will have bigger problems than brake fade. More mass on the rotors will help handle more heat but you increase the unsprung mass and that has other implications. Bottom line is if you start making mods you should understand what the trade-offs are and how it affects other characteristics of the car's suspension and handling. One way to handle the increased heat is better directed cooling air but that becomes a problem if you drive in the rain.

[Redsquall]

Thanks Guys, All helpful. Not mush is simple is it? The previous owner redid the brakes with SS lines about a year ago - not sure what the status of the MC is though. Pedal feels dull, but seems to brake ok. The feels just feels off a like i have to put more effort into than I should. I'll consider these things. Thanks Guys

[David T]

The "power" brakes are not all that much power as compared to other cars. The steering is also heavy especially if you are not moving, it has NO power assist. The car takes a bit of getting used to especially if you are used to newer cars with all of that power assist.

[dn010]

I have Hervey's cross drilled rotors and they're still installed on my car from probably a decade ago if not longer.

They make the "turbine sound" as mentioned above. For me, I really don't like this sound and I have even been asked why my brakes make such an unusual noise. I would rather have quiet brakes but it's personal preferences. The front rotors would also let off a loud squeal every time I'd hit the brakes and I dealt with this for many years despite much effort with anti-squeal parts. A year or two ago, I finally found pads that don't squeal with these rotors!

Mine have no sign of cracking although I'm not sure how many tens of thousands of miles are on mine. These have seen heavy use since I drove daily for many years, rain-sleet-snow or sun!

[Delorean Industries]

If your brake system has been over hauled and the master replaced other adjustments may need to be performed. If you feel as though your pedal travel is sub par the brake booster take up adjustment will need changed. This is the contact point behind the master cylinder piston to the booster rod. Keep in mind if over extended the brake system will be applied all the time. It is a very fine tuned adjustment where very little nets a lot but definitely required in a lot of cases when the master is swapped out.

[drdelorean]

I just had ED's power brake kit installed (vented disks, bigger callipers) I also upgrades the brake lines to the SS TUV hoses. I went with the yellowstuff pads both for the front and rear.
Since I was already doing work in the area I decided to go for ED's SS front lower arm support box kit.

All of this combined made a magnificent difference to the response and feel when braking. And no problems with overheating yet, as that was a problem before going on spaghetti-road road trips.

I highly recommend delores.eu power brake kit. It really made a positive difference in my case.

[jwrayth]

I just had ED's power brake kit installed (vented disks, bigger callipers)

Just for clarity sake; Ed's kit does _not_ have bigger calipers. The calipers have a spacer to provide room to fit the vented disc, but otherwise are the same (so same pad/disc surface area).

I had rebuilt my brakes 2 years ago and fitted them with Yellow-stuff pads which made a noticeable difference, and then I upgraded to Ed's vented discs + spacers last year. I did not notice a difference in braking with the vented discs until after my one very long drive I managed to fit in last year.

[drdelorean]

Thanks for clearing that up.

Thats interesting, I noticed an immediate difference, maybe due to to yellow stuff pads and the SS hoses. I guess the only difference with the vented disks is the fact that they dont overheat as easily.

[David T]

Thanks for clearing that up.

Thats interesting, I noticed an immediate difference, maybe due to to yellow stuff pads and the SS hoses. I guess the only difference with the vented disks is the fact that they dont overheat as easily.

The ventilated rotors have a bit more mass so they can absorb more thermal energy, Also because of the ventilated ribs and larger surface area and forced cooling they are able to dissipate the thermal energy more rapidly. All of this delays brake fade due to heat. It does increase the unsprung mass, that and the spacer in the caliper. Different friction materiel in the pads can create more friction and function better with more heat but they wear rapidly, create a lot of dust, usually don't work well till they get hot, work lousy when wet, and score up the rotors. Each compound has it's different benefits and compromises. If you are "upgrading" your brakes be sure to change your brake fluid EVERY YEAR. If it absorbs enough moisture you can boil it. Turns the braking system from a hydraulic system into a pneumatic system but it wasn't designed to be pneumatic so it won't work AT ALL. If you are having problems with brake fade from street driving (and don't live in San Francisco) you are using your brakes way too much or going way too fast.

[sdg3205]

If your brake system has been over hauled and the master replaced other adjustments may need to be performed. If you feel as though your pedal travel is sub par the brake booster take up adjustment will need changed. This is the contact point behind the master cylinder piston to the booster rod. Keep in mind if over extended the brake system will be applied all the time. It is a very fine tuned adjustment where very little nets a lot but definitely required in a lot of cases when the master is swapped out.

This.

We battled what felt like long pedal travel in one car for a long time. We installed a new MC, stainless lines, and went through a few gallons of DOT 4. In the end, we had to drive around with a 17mm socket and breaker bar and a couple sets of pliers to make tiny, 1/8th turn increments in the booster rod to find the sweet spot between crap and too much. Hint - you can smell and feel "too much" very easily.


Also to the OP:

I have also found that despite what you'd expect, the rear callipers quite notorious for hoarding air. I often have to gently pry the pistons back in to coax the air out. Given the nature of the fronts (sharing a bleed/fill crossover) you really have to push the pistons back in a few times to coax the air out.

Don't rely on pressure bleeders - they're a good start but you can't beat the buddy system.