Snow rolling in, NOW what?

[DaraSue]

So in case anybody didn't follow my misadventures on my last road trip, my car is currently stranded in Vegas getting some brake components replaced. I live in Salt Lake City and I was planning on going back for it in a couple of weeks, but they're calling for up to 8 inches of snow here this next week. I've heard horror stories about the undercarriage/frame getting trashed from driving in the snow one time, am I pretty much stuck having it trailered back or trying to con one of my friends into keeping it in SoCal for the winter?

It wouldn't be my first choice to drive in falling snow anyway but I was hoping that it might warm up & dry up enough to make it back. If I drive on a previously salted road but wash it when I get home, will that mitigate the damage? Those of you who have driven your cars in the snow (http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?13107-DeLoreans-in-the-snow/page5), any helpful hints?

[sdg3205]

So in case anybody didn't follow my misadventures on my last road trip, my car is currently stranded in Vegas getting some brake components replaced. I live in Salt Lake City and I was planning on going back for it in a couple of weeks, but they're calling for up to 8 inches of snow here this next week. I've heard horror stories about the undercarriage/frame getting trashed from driving in the snow one time, am I pretty much stuck having it trailered back or trying to con one of my friends into keeping it in SoCal for the winter?

It wouldn't be my first choice to drive in falling snow anyway but I was hoping that it might warm up & dry up enough to make it back. If I drive on a previously salted road but wash it when I get home, will that mitigate the damage? Those of you who have driven your cars in the snow (http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?13107-DeLoreans-in-the-snow/page5), any helpful hints?

It wont rot the frame in one go! Aesthetically you'd probably be fine after a GOOD wash and rinse all over. Is it safe? Now thats another story. I did it once and I wouldn't do it again. Handling characteristics of the DMC in snow aside, if you hit anything, run in to anything or have anything slide into you, you'd probably loose against what is likely going to be a larger objet.

Case in point:

47449

[Lwanmtr]

Lol..that does kinda give a nice comparison of our happy lil cars compared to those lumbering beasts.

As for snow...while I can't speak from personal experience, driving a Delores in snow wont be much different than any other rear wheel drive car. But its a matter of comfort. I've driven a 78 Camaro (with bald tires), 73 Opel Manta, 84 Chrysler Laser, 84 Mazda B2000 PU and 99 Mustang in snow and only ever had issues on hills when I had to stop....of course I learned one place at a local store to NEVER go out when its slick when my mustang wanted to stop but it was too steep and slick and I slid right out into road to the wrong side....hehe.

Id offer to come drive it for you...but might end up taking a wrong turn (on accident, of course) that leads to my place.

[DMC5180]

I think I'd take a wait and see attitude. It seems like the weather out there is a lot different than the Midwest. How long does snow typically stay around along those driving routes? It seems like from what I've heard the snow in lower elevations never stays long.

The other thing might be to just rent a secured storage unit for a few months. Piece of mind. I would think a storage unit is cheaper than having it hauled back to SLC. But you might swing a deal with an auto hauler going from Vegas to SLC. Barrett-Jackson is coming Soon and those trucks will be dead heading Out to remote locations to bring in cars to the Auction. I'm sure SLC is big pickup point for Auto Haulers


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[Josh]

Like others have said I'd worry less about damage, just wash it when you are home. But controlling the vehicle and driving defensively is another issue. The delorean is just a little play toy compared to every other car on the road. The weight distribution is working against you as well, doesnt take much to spin the car around 180.

[Nate88]

If you want/need to have it towed you could rent a U-Haul car carrier (the ones that are a full trailer, not the ones that just put the front wheels up) and borrow a pick-up to drive it back. I did that when I needed to tow my car down to get worked on. I think it was around $60 for 24 hours, borrowed my Dad's boss's F-150 and towed it down. Heck of a lot cheaper than hiring a tow company. Just another option for you.

https://www.uhaul.com/Trailers/Auto-Transport-Rental/AT/

[dn010]

It wouldn't be the snow that trashes the frame, it would be the salt they spread on the roads. I drove for many, many years throughout the winters in upstate New York. And I can tell you my D was much better in the snow than my front-wheel drive Altima, I could go uphill with inches of snow on the road easily while my wife would be burning up the tires behind me trying to get traction in the Altima. I've never lost control in the D unless it was on purpose in a parking lot; I did lose control once in the Altima but nothing bad happened. Compared to all of my vehicles aside from my Subaru AWD, the DeLorean was the best in the snow. However, one thing I can say is you have to know how to drive in the snow.

[Elvis]

Sorry I can't second this.

maybe you have luck uphill because of the weight being on the rear axle,

but - no steering, no brakes ! Hell, I missed the driveway to my house by ~ 10 meters !
Steering only worked when going very slow.

If you're not used to it and your tires are the regular summer tires - don't drive that far.

I enjoyed driving mine in the snow for fun. Parking lot, roads with no traffic...finally
burnouts and 360s were possible :-P

[Bitsyncmaster]

I grew up in Connecticut with rear wheel drive cars. It's not a problem when you do it all the time. You know to be very carfull when you need to stop. It was always fun going to empty parking lots and just playing doing spin outs.

Since my D is a hobby car, I never take it out on salted roads just to keep the frame from rotting. If I had a SS frame I would probably drive it with light snow.

[dn010]

If I could do it all over again, I would never drive the D on the salted roads. Ever! Even with a stainless frame, you have a whole bunch of other steel parts to worry about.

Lesson (expensive one) learned...


I grew up in Connecticut with rear wheel drive cars. It's not a problem when you do it all the time. You know to be very carfull when you need to stop. It was always fun going to empty parking lots and just playing doing spin outs.

Since my D is a hobby car, I never take it out on salted roads just to keep the frame from rotting. If I had a SS frame I would probably drive it with light snow.

[DaraSue]

Thanks, guys... I looked at the UHaul car trailers and their website didn't give the option to rent anything but a moving truck to go with the trailer, although if I drove back at least as far as Vegas or St. George to pick up the truck it would be half the price of getting it in Oceanside (I'm planning on going down to SoCal after I pick the car up in a couple weeks.) IDK if anybody I know down there is going to have a pickup truck they can do without for a week, although my cousin's got a 4-Runner that has a tow hitch so maybe.

The snow frequently does melt off quickly, especially earlier in the season, although I'm going over a few 6000' passes on the way back and it might stick more up there. The weather can be weird here - sometimes we'll have a warm snap and it's 50F in Jan. so maybe if I could find a short-term storage in Vegas or St. George that would be the easiest option. I do have quite a bit of Southwest credit so at least I could fly down and drive it on the weekends :)

I've driven in snow storms before but it's always been in front wheel drive cars. If it unexpectedly started dumping I'd plan on just pulling over and waiting it out, but it's more the salt I'm worried about sticking to things. I was probably going to have to drive it on the road during the winter for a few miles anyway b/c I'm trying to buy a house but a couple hundred miles is a bit different than across town. :nervous:

[DMCMW Dave]

It's not the snow that trashes the car (unless of course it makes you skid into something), it's the road salt commonly used up here in the north to melt the snow. It's insanely corrosive and melts steel as well. . .

I'm not sure if they salt roads in your area, although I know you have lots of salt around there in the form of salt flats and salt lake. . . .

Most important thing if you do get a car salted up is to wash the underside as soon and as thoroughly as you can, and don't lock it up wet in a sealed garage.

[DMCVegas]

Driving in the snow, on salted roads one time isn't going to hurt the car. Trust me. I've taken 6585 through snow, across lawns, dirt, gravel roads, through mud, silt, raw sewage, industrial waste, and even jumped her. Through all of that, the chassis itself has been just fine. So you will be just fine. Just wash the underside.

No matter what car you choose to use during the winter, you should be cleaning the undercarriage anyway if you live in an area that uses road salt. Many car washes have them, though I would seriously recommend getting yourself a pressure washer and an undercarriage attachment to spray both salt neutralizer as well as rise water on the underside to keep things clean. Not just for the DeLorean, but ALL of your vehicles to keep them lasting for years to come.

If you do decide to store your vehicle, you'll just need a 15'x10' unit. 10' will give you more than enough room to open the doors, and the car is only 14' and some inches, so it'll store inside no problem. If you tell the owner it is for a car, be prepared to have to bring a copy of your title since they'll want a copy just in case you ever default on the unit. Or, you can just not tell them what is going inside. If you went to that 50's garage, there looks to be a storage unit place behind them. Also, please let us all know how your experience was.

If you tow it back, you have to have an appropriate tow vehicle by U-Haul standards, AND you have to make sure that you click on vehicle towing at the top AFTER you choose to rent a trailer.

[David T]

I would say wait a day or so till the roads melt and some of the salt washes off and then drive home. Once home rinse the underside as thoroughly as you can.

[DaraSue]

If I bring it home and rinse it off, would letting sit outside for a couple hours be sufficient to let it dry? I assume I'd just be getting more salt on it if I drove it around. Or could I dry it off with a hair dryer?

[David T]

If I bring it home and rinse it off, would letting sit outside for a couple hours be sufficient to let it dry? I assume I'd just be getting more salt on it if I drove it around. Or could I dry it off with a hair dryer?

It would dry off as long as it is above freezing. Best to just park it in a warm garage, heated would be best. If you are that particular you could raise the car and wipe it off manually.

[Rich_NYS]

I drove for many, many years throughout the winters in upstate New York.

Where in NYS?


If I could do it all over again, I would never drive the D on the salted roads. Ever!

+1

I've seen a bazillion salt-damaged cars and experienced corrosion in every crack & crevice on a car. If I had no choice but to drive on a salted road, I'd neurotically clean the underside multiple times, and continue to do so into the warm weather.

One mild Winter season (~6 road saltings) shows on a DD....it's very frustrating.

I think trailering would be less of a hassle than cleaning afterward.

[DMC5180]

If I bring it home and rinse it off, would letting sit outside for a couple hours be sufficient to let it dry? I assume I'd just be getting more salt on it if I drove it around. Or could I dry it off with a hair dryer?

Park it it outside on a breezy sunny day.

If you park it in a garage, you could set up a box fan to blow air under the car accelerate evaporation.

If you knew there weren't any area roads that had not been previously salted, I'd just go for drive. That will dry the car the quickest.

[DaraSue]

Maybe this is a stupid question, but how do you know if the road has been salted? If there's no white residue, is it probably safe? I've seen salt trucks on the freeway in heavy snow but I'm not sure about the smaller roads.

[DMC5180]

If there is no white residue, you're probably okay as long as the surface is dry. It's the water/salt combination that does the most potential damage.

Back here in the upper Midwest many communities have been starting to pretreat roads with salt brine or calcium chloride to help the melting process during the early stages of a snowfall. The service manager at my local GM dealer said, they have really noticed an up tick in the presence of rust appearing on underside components much earlier than it used to start showing on newer vehicles.



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[David T]

Maybe this is a stupid question, but how do you know if the road has been salted? If there's no white residue, is it probably safe? I've seen salt trucks on the freeway in heavy snow but I'm not sure about the smaller roads.

In my area they don't salt the roads like they used to. Causes too much salt pollution. It gets into the ground water eventually and increases the salinity which is a factor in increasing hypertension (high blood pressure) in people. What they do now is mix up a brine solution (water and salt) and drip it onto the roads before it snows. You can see it as lines of drips. Makes it easier to snow plow and helps to keep the snow from turning into ice. They will salt the roads if it becomes icy, like if you have a warm day, the snow melts and then refreezes at night. They also make mixes of salt and cinders or sand depending on expected weather conditions to cut down on the use of salt. Hard to see the salt in the snow til it all melts and the roads are covered in white dust. It can be so bad you can taste it when you drive on the roads. If you wash the frame off right away it won't hurt the frame so much as it rots the fasteners and brackets quick. Rinsing the frame with fresh water will get the majority of the salt off, it doesn't matter how it dries. Depending on your circumstances it may be less work to trailer the car rather than cleaning it. Given a choice all things being equal, trailering is the better choice.

[DaraSue]

The good news is, the 5-8" they were forecasting for this weekend is now down to 3-5" and it's supposed to be above freezing during the day. The bad news is, my complex is already full of salt. I can see big granules of it in front of my garage. I've still got another week before I'm going back down to Vegas so I guess I'll see how it looks by then...

[Lwanmtr]

Is it salt? Over on this side they use a weird compound as opposed to salt.

[David T]

Is it salt? Over on this side they use a weird compound as opposed to salt.

Probably Calcium Chloride. Still technically a salt, just not "table salt" which is Sodium Chloride. Not supposed to be as corrosive on concrete.

[dn010]

I grew up living upstate, in the Catskills, closest town people might have an idea where it is on a map would be Middletown. I finally moved to Florida in 2010 because I couldn't take the cold anymore! Now we just deal with the threat of hurricanes hitting.

I got my car in 2002 and had battled frame rust constantly. Some of the rust had been there when I got the car but the demise would eventually be all the salt. I had removed my frame two or three times for repairs and even had to graft a new front end on it. A few years after I moved to Florida I looked under my car and threw in the towel - EVERYTHING was rust. I bought a rolling chassis and replaced everything minus the transmission. I don't think there was one bolt on the rusty frame that did not break. I'll have to post a picture of what the rest of my old frame looks like currently, it makes a great conversation piece!



Where in NYS?

[DaraSue]

Is it salt? Over on this side they use a weird compound as opposed to salt.


Probably Calcium Chloride. Still technically a salt, just not "table salt" which is Sodium Chloride. Not supposed to be as corrosive on concrete.

It's whitish and granular. I assume whatever it is isn't something I want on my car. :frown:

It would vastly simplify things if I could finalize my house purchase before I went to get the car, b/c then if I had to rent a U-Haul truck to trailer it back I could use it to move, too (or at least move everything that won't fit in the back of the CRX) but I'm not sure how it's all going to shake out b/c I'm buying the house from a friend and she's still looking for a new place.

(It's snowing today, but currently above freezing so I'm still crossing my fingers that it'll melt off and take the salt with it...)

[DaraSue]

Something I hadn't considered - if I drove a truck & trailer back and the roads were wet, would the truck tires be kicking up enough spray to get the car dirty anyway (thus defeating the entire purpose)?

[DMC5180]

Yes, but it would be minimized to the front. Unless the car trailer had an open center between the wheel rails.


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[David T]

Depends. If the floor of the trailer is just grating, if the center is open, if the trailer is not an enclosed trailer, etc. You could drive the car onto a tarp and cover it with another tarp wrapping it up good, that would keep it clean and dry.

[Spittybug]

JC everyone. It's a car. It was built to be outdoors. Even if you don't wash that evil, evil salt off immediately, it will survive! Driving in the elements is one thing from a safety point of view, but face it, our cars are NOT collectors items unless you've kept it in a bubble for 30+ years. Don't worry about it getting wet, salty, dirty or infected with cooties! Enjoy driving it; it is a machine intended to provide YOU with satisfaction, not vice versa.

[Lwanmtr]

I agree...While I havent driven mine more than 4 miles yet, I bought it to be my daily driver...but its a not a bad idea to wash the salts off...hehe

[DaraSue]

Haha... maybe I'm being overly paranoid but ever since I heard the story about the doctor who drove his D in the salt one time (he had to get to emergency surgery and his Aston Martin wouldn't start) and then next time he got it out, the undercarriage looked like it had been exposed to the elements for 5 years, I've been a little nervous to get a grain of salt on it. TBF it sounded like he'd put it away wet and then left it in the garage til spring thaw and I don't plan on doing that but still... :paranoid:

I probably will end up just driving it back and trying to wash it good as long as it's not actually snowstorming that week, or else just getting it shipped straight back to MW so they can do some more work on it over the winter, but we'll see. The 6000' mountain passes are down south and I don't think it's snowed much/at all down there, at least.

[DMC5180]

I saw a DMCH refurbished car after it was driven home by the new owner on wet/salted roads in the Chicago area. He took delivery at DMCMW. It was mind boggling to see the white residue already attacking the zinc plating on various brackets in the engine compartment. It was only driven in the crap once and that's all it took.


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[DaraSue]

I saw a DMCH refurbished car after it was driven home by the new owner on wet/salted roads in the Chicago area. He took delivery at DMCMW. It was mind boggling to see the white residue already attacking the zinc plating on various brackets in the engine compartment. It was only driven in the crap once and that's all it took.


Yeesh, that's what I'm afraid of. Had he cleaned it at all after driving it in the crud?

[DMC-81]

Yeah, salt is very corrosive. When I lived in the snow belt, I always put my toy away (some type of sports car) before or at the first snow and didn't drive it in the spring until the salt and sand was washed away really good. That's to say nothing about potholes but I could at least avoid them. Having spent a good amount of time on the underneath of the DeLorean and knowing it's propensity to develop cracks in the frame's epoxy, I wouldn't even drive it in the salt once. As Dennis said, once is enough. I wouldn't trust a rinse afterwards. That's just my opinion.

[dn010]

Yeah, salt is very corrosive. When I lived in the snow belt, I always put my toy away (some type of sports car) before or at the first snow and didn't drive it in the spring until the salt and sand was washed away really good. That's to say nothing about potholes but I could at least avoid them. Having spent a good amount of time on the underneath of the DeLorean and knowing it's propensity to develop cracks in the frame's epoxy, I wouldn't even drive it in the salt once. As Dennis said, once is enough. I wouldn't trust a rinse afterwards. That's just my opinion.

+1. If you do drive it in the snow/salt I'd suggest removing and washing down the "air deflector" shields (106733) - those were always filled with sand/salt etc. for me. Also found a lot of crap would rest inside the plastic rear valance pieces (100703).

Here's what's left of mine, after numerous repairs and being coated in POR-15 at on at least two occations...

http://dmctalk.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=47554&d=1480514714

And no, I couldn't even salvage my stainless braided brake lines :(

Cheers,

[Rich_NYS]

Not trying to sound cynical, but I'd filter out most opinions from anyone who hasn't lived where salt is prevalent.....it gets everywhere and I don't believe a wash will eliminate it. Someone mentioned epoxy cracks....great point.

A trailer + covering above & below [as suggested] is my preference....it's quick, easy, and effective.

I have some pics I'll find & post.

Rich -hailing from the Adirondack Park in NYS: road salt corrosion capital of the world. Previous owner of countless salt-disposed automobiles.




*Edit: found some pics.

NYS car: Lived in Long Island and the Catskills, heated garage, possibly had a joyride in the Winter while dad (the owner) was away, 11K verified original miles:

4755547556


NYS car: Lived in Long Island and the Catskills, probably saw a few Winters, last known PO was particular and cleaned it regularly, ~40K miles:

4755747558

Mississippi car: Never saw road salt, possibly driven regularly on a stone driveway (read: wet stones everywhere,) ~35K miles:

4755947560

[DaraSue]

+1. If you do drive it in the snow/salt I'd suggest removing and washing down the "air deflector" shields (106733) - those were always filled with sand/salt etc. for me. Also found a lot of crap would rest inside the plastic rear valance pieces (100703).


If you don't mind my asking, what did it cost to replace your frame? Just want an idea of the worst case scenario.

I think I might have a solution - the couple I'm buying the house from are driving their own truck and trailer to move their stuff down to northern NV, and their roommate might have a trailer that would haul the car. They're going to be driving back empty at least once, so if I can find a storage unit in Vegas they might be able to bring it back for me. Or else if I can figure out when they're going to be down there, I could rent just the trailer and have them tow it back.

[dn010]

If you don't mind my asking, what did it cost to replace your frame? Just want an idea of the worst case scenario.



It may be hard to give you an idea since my situation was different. The biggest question is - Are you able to replace it yourself or are you paying someone to do it for you - that will make a big difference.

I do all the work myself - I was able to find a damaged replacement rolling chassis and I think I paid $1000 for it. Another $1200 to ship it. I'd guess another $500 in hardware and special paint for the frame alone. If your time costs anything, factor in many, many hours for the old frame removal, teardown of old frame and replacement frame components, then sandblasting everything. Then I needed to repair the damage to the frame caused by a leaking clutch or master cylinder. I replaced everything though - bushings, bearings, hoses; I went to an aluminum radiator, stainless LCAs, proper lowering springs, etc. so in the end it was very expensive. A simple frame replacement and swap of parts wouldn't be as much $$ but finding a cheap frame in good shape these days is tough.

Take a look at the pictures Rich posted. When I moved to Florida, a good friend of mine moved with my wife and I, and he took his truck down here from NYS. I bought a truck down here in Florida that was the same year as his truck but spent all it's life in FL. The difference between our trucks was night and day. To give an example, I needed to change my front brake pads, took me 20 minutes give or take. My friend wanted to have the front pads on his truck changed - it took HOURS due to things being so rusted and damaged. I originally agreed to change the brake shoes too but after the front, I declined. My parents still live in NYS, their vehicles have already gone through exhausts from rust holes, the spare wheel holder on my dads truck even rusted away!

EDIT: I would just like to add that this damage took years to happen, it didn't happen overnight or after one or two trips in the salt so keep that in mind. I still wouldn't have driven it on those roads if I could do it all over again nor will I drive on those roads in the future with everything replaced. Also, had I not been able to get a rolling chassis but instead just a bare chassis, I never would have been able to get my car back on the road because every single thing needed to be replaced and there was very little I had that was salvageable (my rotors, calipers and hubs I saved, that is about it!), even the hard lines on the TOP of the frame were rusted through.

[DaraSue]

It may be hard to give you an idea since my situation was different. The biggest question is - Are you able to replace it yourself or are you paying someone to do it for you - that will make a big difference.


Yeah, I'd most likely be paying somebody else to do the work. I'm pretty short on both time and mechanical skill. :(

Just so we're all on the same page, is driving on dry but previously salted roads substantially less damaging than driving on wet, salty roads? Or is it still going to get kicked up into everything? Because what I was originally planning was to come back if we'd had a couple of clear, dry days since the last snow. But it may be a moot point because the 10-day forecast is calling for snow showers the days before I was going to be coming back. I reserved a storage locker in Vegas just in case. (And a U-haul in St. George, but if it's snowing I'm probably not going to bother with that either, b/c I've only driven semi-trucks a couple of times and never in snow or with a trailer before, and it would be cruelly ironic if while trying to avoid driving the D in the snow, I went off the road in the truck and wrecked it anyway.)

[DMC5180]

Dry salt dust does not stick to surfaces nearly as bad as wet spray of the tires.

FYI, we might get light snow flurries here and the city has already put a layer of brine on all the city streets. It was wet this morning and is now dry white residue.


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[DMCMW Dave]

Dry salt dust does not stick to surfaces nearly as bad as wet spray of the tires.



But once you get the car dusted like that, the next dampness, even condensation will still stick it to the car. Still, lots better than wet spray off the road.

[DaraSue]

Am I fighting a losing battle just because of where I live? I.e. next to a giant lake of salt water? I've got a garage but when I drive to work I park outside. I took a look in the engine compartment of one that had been owned by a local couple for several decades, and I do remember thinking that their components looked a little worse for wear than mine. (Similar mileage iirc, although I could be misremembering.)

[DMCVegas]

No, you're fine. Short answer: Just take care of the car, and it'll take care of you.

Detailed answer: Certain environments, ones more humid than others to be sure, will affect the appearance of certain things such as aluminum when it becomes a bit more blemished from natural oxidation. On the flip side, intense heat in very dry environments my dry out things like the tape on the wiring harness, and attracts a LOT more dust. My car for instance (with a brief exception of less than 2 years in Houston) has spent it's entire life in the Mojave desert. When I first picked it up, the car looked brand new underneath. But now I also have epoxy cracks all over the chassis in the engine compartment from what appears to be excessive heat exposure. Never been hit, frame is straight as an arrow. And then we have the problems with the interior from the intense UV exposure and temperatures. But that just goes to show you that different cars from different regions are going to have different considerations. Which is a future article I'm also working on.

Now in my case for example, I have the problem of the cracked epoxy in the engine bay, AND separated epoxy all over the front chassis from where my Brake Master Cylinder had a leak. A potential problem for damn near any vehicle out there, DeLorean or otherwise. Luckily the car is in the desert so it's not a big deal. Just has some simple surface rust. But in my case I plan on later on grinding the bad epoxy away and painting over the sections with POR15. Now granted on the underside there will be patches where you can see the repairs. Myself, I don't care. I like patina and a few battle scars from age. Not crunched cars mind you, but not pristine either. Although such cosmetics, even hidden ones no one will ever see, are purely up to the driver. But in the end, it's just taking care of the car, and knowing what other things to consider because of your geographic region.

If nothing else, ask your fellow local owners what they have done to protect their cars.

[Rich_NYS]

What was the final decision...did you drive it, or trailer it?

Not trying to belabor the point, but today as I was working near the fuel line I recalled that I have a pic of the same area [on my first car] for comparison, so I'm posting them for anyone interested in seeing the difference.

One pic is 4728 (Mississippi car,) the other is my first DeLorean (NYS car.)

Aside from one being freshly cleaned, notice: the difference between the steel fuel lines, the POR-15, and most attention-getting...someone used a torch on the fuel line fitting.

4812448125