Springs, revisited

[rickjames8]

So I am in the process of changing my steering rack, after which I'll need an alignment. I wanted to change my front springs next year, but that will also require an alignment, so why not just do the springs now and save the second alignment cost?

Fortunately, springs have been discussed at length here. Unfortunately most of the threads end with "Go with Martin's springs". Well, Martin is no longer in the spring trade for some good reasons, so who would you recommend as second best for front lowering springs? I am sort of considering between PJ Grady ($190) and SpecialT ($160). Willing to entertain others in the same price range.

My reasons for wanting to lower is to undo the nose-high look (80%) and to handle a bit better (20%). I recently got a set of Spax shocks anticipating I'd do this swap sometime. I only planned to get the front springs simply because of budget, unless there are compelling reasons to go with the Eibachs, which are only sold as a set of 4.

I'm not interested in cutting springs or similar mods, although I've read others have had luck with it.

TIA,
-Rick

[Chris 16409]

You should also consider Ed Uding's front lowering springs:

http://www.delorean.eu/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=20_143&products_id=95063&osCsid=a1dcn9gr1da2bf5prm33e1bul5

[dn010]

I had cut springs for over a decade and they didn't seem to be any trouble for me. When I swapped frames and pretty much replaced everything, I no longer wanted the cheap shortcut cut springs route so I went with Grady's lowering springs in the front only, kept it stock in the back. Because of all the thousands of dollars I spent on this swap and related parts, I was able to get a pair of his first generation lowering springs used and discounted. I love them, but they were a bitch to install. His new generation springs are the same spring rate etc, just the gaps between the coils and number of coils is different allowing much easier installation.

[DMC-81]

Hi Rick,
I chose Hervey's springs for the following reasons:
- I wanted a "normal" stance to replace the nose high original stance. I didn't want a lowered stance
- I read that some of the other lowering springs can sag with age.
- I like the lowered look, but was afraid of the tires possibly hitting the fenders, especially while turning into my elevated driveway, and maybe over time
- I liked the 15% stronger spring rate claimed.

Here is a pic of the car with Hervey's front and rear springs, and the new DMC performance shocks all around. I'm happy with the look, the sporty feel, and adjustable rear height with this setup.
47945

I know it is to each their own on suspension setup, so this was my choice. I'd make it again.

[louielouie2000]

Hi Rick,
I chose Hervey's springs for the following reasons:
- I wanted a "normal" stance to replace the nose high original stance. I didn't want a lowered stance
- I read that some of the other lowering springs can sag with age.
- I like the lowered look, but was afraid of the tires possibly hitting the fenders, especially while turning into my elevated driveway, and maybe over time
- I liked the 15% stronger spring rate claimed.

Here is a pic of the car with Hervey's front and rear springs, and the new DMC performance shocks all around. I'm happy with the look, the sporty feel, and adjustable rear height with this setup.

I know it is to each their own on suspension setup, so this was my choice. I'd make it again.

I've been wondering how much Hervey's springs dropped the front of the car. Your car's stance in that pic looks very similar to Grady's springs, which lower the front about 1.5". I see the DeLorean Europe springs are about the same drop as well. I seem to recall the Eibach's lower the front of the car about 2", so they must be the lowest springs now that Martin G is no longer in the spring business.

Regarding springs sagging with age, I believe that was only a problem with the very first run of the Eibachs. From what I understand, that problem has long since been remedied. It is worth noting that some settling over the first few hundred miles will occur when any new spring setup is installed in a DeLorean, though.

[DMC-81]

I've been wondering how much Hervey's springs dropped the front of the car. Your car's stance in that pic looks very similar to Grady's springs, which lower the front about 1.5". I see the DeLorean Europe springs are about the same drop as well. I seem to recall the Eibach's lower the front of the car about 2", so they must be the lowest springs now that Martin G is no longer in the spring business.

Regarding springs sagging with age, I believe that was only a problem with the very first run of the Eibachs. From what I understand, that problem has long since been remedied. It is worth noting that some settling over the first few hundred miles will occur when any new spring setup is installed in a DeLorean, though.

Thanks Louie. I'ts great to hear that the sagging was only a problem initially. As for the height, my understanding is that Guiguiro's initial specification was 24.015" from the ground to the lip of the fender opening. Mine is measured at 24.5" I don't know how that compares with the other offerings, but I thought these were the middle of the road when I selected them.

[David T]

Thanks Louie. I'ts great to hear that the sagging was only a problem initially. As for the height, my understanding is that Guiguiro's initial specification was 24.015" from the ground to the lip of the fender opening. Mine is measured at 24.5" I don't know how that compares with the other offerings, but I thought these were the middle of the road when I selected them.

Do you have a reference for where you got that "Giorgio" height? I have never seen any official height except what is in the Workshop manual or the Service Bulletins. Many have made claims about different heights but no one to my knowledge has ever been able to offer a reputable source. If you do lower the car you must adjust the front toe and the rear camber. The rear one is the hard one unless you put adjustable links back there. You also must consider the reduced clearance and the associated problems it can cause and the reduced suspension ravel. I remember one car that was lowered and had "ground effects" on the sides. We almost ripped them off putting the car on a lift at one of our club's tech days. BTW the height spec is from the ground to the frame, NOT the body.

[DMC-81]

Do you have a reference for where you got that "Giorgio" height? I have never seen any official height except what is in the Workshop manual or the Service Bulletins. Many have made claims about different heights but no one to my knowledge has ever been able to offer a reputable source. If you do lower the car you must adjust the front toe and the rear camber. The rear one is the hard one unless you put adjustable links back there. You also must consider the reduced clearance and the associated problems it can cause and the reduced suspension ravel. I remember one car that was lowered and had "ground effects" on the sides. We almost ripped them off putting the car on a lift at one of our club's tech days. BTW the height spec is from the ground to the frame, NOT the body.

Hi David. I'll try to find the source of the design height. It was measured from the ground to the fender lip. I did a lot of reading before I did my suspension. I know that there is also a ground to frame measurement when doing the alignment (it is 5.5"). I offered the measurement to the body to help answer Rick's questions on comparison of different spring packages, not for an alignment spec. You are correct in that you have to get adjustable links to do the rear the right way...to allow camber adjustment. I got my lower ones converted by Marty Maier. I got a successful 4 wheel alignment to the factory specs (http://www.dmcnews.com/bulletins/ST-34-1.82.html) afterwards and my suspension geometry looks completely normal, especially the front (and the frame to ground measurement is now either close to or on spec.)

[Drive Stainless]

I posted the 24" figure before, as David knows very well. It's in the book, "Celebrating the Impossible" in one of Giugaro's design drawings.

[sdg3205]

I've been wondering how much Hervey's springs dropped the front of the car. Your car's stance in that pic looks very similar to Grady's springs, which lower the front about 1.5". I see the DeLorean Europe springs are about the same drop as well. I seem to recall the Eibach's lower the front of the car about 2", so they must be the lowest springs now that Martin G is no longer in the spring business.

Regarding springs sagging with age, I believe that was only a problem with the very first run of the Eibachs. From what I understand, that problem has long since been remedied. It is worth noting that some settling over the first few hundred miles will occur when any new spring setup is installed in a DeLorean, though.

I do love my "Martin G" springs.

4794647947

[steve]

Rick if you can hold till Feb. you can collect Hervey's lowering springs from Richmond Va. Front and Rear 1.5 years old about 1,200 miles.
I need new shocks and will be ordering the (Drive Stainless Coil overs).

Steve

[DMC5180]

I've had a couple different sets lowering springs over the years. The first was a custom set from The MidStates delorean club. Late 90's. these were a bit too soft and I would occasionally bottom out the front end in certain loading situations. When DMCH came out with the Eibach package in the early 2000's . I decided to give those a try. The front springs still suffered from settling, but not quite as bad as the set they replaced. I ended up installing a Mr. Gasket 1" rubber donut spring helper. It did improve the height a little, but more importantly stopped the bottoming issue.

If I were to go back in time, I would go with the PJ Grady front spring kit. Every car I've ever seen at the DCS shows that had them, had a near perfect stance with uniform tire clearance gaps.

Also, with today's adjustable height rear shocks, you don't need to change the stock rear springs anymore.

Just my $.02



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[David T]

I posted the 24" figure before, as David knows very well. It's in the book, "Celebrating the Impossible" in one of Giugaro's design drawings.

If you could, it would be great if you could post the drawing from that book in the "files" section for everyone. I do not remember seeing it but I vaguely remember your referencing it.

[Mark D]

One other thing that can affect ride height is whether or not the weight of the car was loaded on the suspension when the upper and lower control arm pivot bolts were torqued to spec. If the suspension is hanging when those bolts are tightened the UCA and LCA rubber bushings will be have a preload on them when the car is sitting on the ground under it's own weight. The front of the car will sit higher than it should and the bushings will potentially fail sooner than they should due to the constant torsional force they are seeing.

When swapping to lowering springs you should really loosen up those pivot bolts and re-torque them with the weight of the car on the suspension to eliminate preload on the bushings. The shorter springs will allow the suspension to rotate to a different 'neutral' point of travel so simply swapping springs will introduce a small amount of preload on the bushings.

One other thing to note is the preload issue really only applies to the OE style rubber/steel bushings. Poly bushings are different because the inner sleeve is not attached to the surrounding bushing material. The inner sleeve that the bolt is tightened to can rotate within the bushing so there is no opportunity for preload to happen. The rubber bushings have the inner and outer sleeve vulcanized to rubber material so for the inner and outer sleeves to move relative to one another the rubber has to twist.

[Drive Stainless]

If you could, it would be great if you could post the drawing from that book in the "files" section for everyone. I do not remember seeing it but I vaguely remember your referencing it.

Nope. Support the author, buy the book!

[David T]

Nope. Support the author, buy the book!

If you are going to reference something as controversial as the height of the car you need to back up your claim. Since you already "supported the author" and made reference to his book, it is up to you to support your claim. If you have it, post it. Otherwise your claim is just unsupported hearsay. It is not up to me to prove your claim.

[Drive Stainless]

If you are going to reference something as controversial as the height of the car you need to back up your claim. Since you already "supported the author" and made reference to his book, it is up to you to support your claim. If you have it, post it. Otherwise your claim is just unsupported hearsay. It is not up to me to prove your claim.

I'm afraid you're terribly mistaken if you think I'm about to become your indentured servant; to scan and post information from books that I possess, that I paid for, merely to satisfy your curiosity. To you, I owe no such duty.

The information is on pages 28-29 of "Celebrating the Impossible." Mr. Parnham and Mr. Withers both worked very hard to produce this book, which includes many photos and stories that I had never seen before. It is well-worth the price paid.

If you are indeed a self-professed "DeLorean Guru," you may consider adding the book to your collection rather than attempting to coerce others into providing you with the information, piecemeal, for free. Any serious historian in any subject will slowly collect a library of reference materials over the course of a lifetime.

[DMCVegas]

I do love my "Martin G" springs.

4794647947

I think I have a set of those springs from the UK way back in 2003 that I never got around to installing. They were front springs only to match the rears. But I have heard of sagging problems with them, so I've been hesitant to install them.

Does anyone know if these are the same springs?

[Bob635]

I totally respect people who want to lower their D's to make them look sleeker and maybe more original. However, at my age, my Ds are just too low to get in and out easily.
So I am raising up my cars. I do this my raising the chassis 1" off the frame. It is not too hard of a job, but does require a lot of disassembly and reassembly to get to the bolts.
It's only an inch, but it really does help.

Other older owners were asking about how to do this at DW this year. It will be interesting to see if there is every a threat on this in the future.

Bob


Thanks Louie. I'ts great to hear that the sagging was only a problem initially. As for the height, my understanding is that Guiguiro's initial specification was 24.015" from the ground to the lip of the fender opening. Mine is measured at 24.5" I don't know how that compares with the other offerings, but I thought these were the middle of the road when I selected them.

[sdg3205]

I totally respect people who want to lower their D's to make them look sleeker and maybe more original. However, at my age, my Ds are just too low to get in and out easily.
So I am raising up my cars. I do this my raising the chassis 1" off the frame. It is not too hard of a job, but does require a lot of disassembly and reassembly to get to the bolts.
It's only an inch, but it really does help.

Other older owners were asking about how to do this at DW this year. It will be interesting to see if there is every a threat on this in the future.

Bob

If that's what it takes for you to continue enjoying your delorean, more power to you!!

Rob - those pics are of martins springs after 6 years of use. They were always pretty low. I can find some earlier pictures to compare if you like. I installed first gen eibach rear springs to eliminate the rake.

[FABombjoy]

Martin G springs here, too. No observable sag. Higher spring rate provide snappier steering response.

They replaced the older version of Grady's springs which seemed to be a similar rate as stock.

[PJ Grady Inc.]

I've had a couple different sets lowering springs over the years. The first was a custom set from The MidStates delorean club. Late 90's. these were a bit too soft and I would occasionally bottom out the front end in certain loading situations. When DMCH came out with the Eibach package in the early 2000's . I decided to give those a try. The front springs still suffered from settling, but not quite as bad as the set they replaced. I ended up installing a Mr. Gasket 1" rubber donut spring helper. It did improve the height a little, but more importantly stopped the bottoming issue.

If I were to go back in time, I would go with the PJ Grady front spring kit. Every car I've ever seen at the DCS shows that had them, had a near perfect stance with uniform tire clearance gaps.

Also, with today's adjustable height rear shocks, you don't need to change the stock rear springs anymore.

Just my $.02



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Thank you for the recommendation on our spring kit. I've always maintained there is no need to change the rear springs if you do not lower the front more than 1 & 1/2". If someone also uses our current supplier of shocks then the rear height is fully adjustable further negating any need to replace springs unless you want to change the spring rate. Our standard kit retains the stock spring rate (#100413GS). If someone is looking for better handling while keeping a basically stock ride height we've recently also started offering a stock height spring kit that is 20% stiffer than stock(#100413GP). It noticeably improves handling and reduces body roll while keeping the stock height. They also work particularly well on BTTF cars with their extra weight to contend with.
Rob

[Rich_NYS]

~snip~ When swapping to lowering springs you should really loosen up those pivot bolts and re-torque them with the weight of the car on the suspension to eliminate preload on the bushings. The shorter springs will allow the suspension to rotate to a different 'neutral' point of travel so simply swapping springs will introduce a small amount of preload on the bushings. ~snip~

I didn't realize this, thanks for posting the info.....I'll loosen & re-torque mine the next time I have it on the ground.

[Mark D]

I didn't realize this, thanks for posting the info.....I'll loosen & re-torque mine the next time I have it on the ground.

The pivot bolts can be difficult to access with the car actually on the ground (or on ramps) so the way I did it was to use a floor jack below the lower control arm to compress the suspension. My car was on jack stands at the time (wheels and tires removed) so I lifted below the LCA until the car just started to come off the jack stand at that corner. I torqued the bolts and then let the jack back down. Use a wood block to protect the LCA from the jack.

I wasn't sure if the jack at one corner method would give a different weight distribution at each wheel vs the car truly on the ground so I took a few measurements and it ended up being really close. When I had the jack compressing the suspension to the point where I was ready to torque the pivot bolts, I measured from the center of the hub to the inside of the fender arch. Later on when I actually got everything put back together, wheels back on, car sitting on the ground I took the same measurement from the center of the wheel to the inside of the wheel arch was less than 1/2" difference. It was a little further off when I first set the car back on the ground, but after a drive to let everything settle a little that measurement matched up better.

On the ground vs. using a jack may have slight difference, but getting it at least into the ballpark compared to torquing with the suspension at full droop is what you're after.

[David T]

I'm afraid you're terribly mistaken if you think I'm about to become your indentured servant; to scan and post information from books that I possess, that I paid for, merely to satisfy your curiosity. To you, I owe no such duty.

The information is on pages 28-29 of "Celebrating the Impossible." Mr. Parnham and Mr. Withers both worked very hard to produce this book, which includes many photos and stories that I had never seen before. It is well-worth the price paid.

If you are indeed a self-professed "DeLorean Guru," you may consider adding the book to your collection rather than attempting to coerce others into providing you with the information, piecemeal, for free. Any serious historian in any subject will slowly collect a library of reference materials over the course of a lifetime.

No one is asking you to become an "indentured servant". This forum is here to support the free exchange of information regarding the Delorean. All I ask is that if you make a claim and reference a source you provide it. While I or others may choose to obtain the book, many will not. Not asking for the whole book, just what you are referencing. There is no "duty" on your part to do anything. You don't even have to reply to this. But, if you have something to contribute or share with the forum I think many of us would like to see it.

[DMC-81]

I posted the 24" figure before, as David knows very well. It's in the book, "Celebrating the Impossible" in one of Giugaro's design drawings.

Yep. That was the source. :)

[rickjames8]

Rick if you can hold till Feb. you can collect Hervey's lowering springs from Richmond Va. Front and Rear 1.5 years old about 1,200 miles.
I need new shocks and will be ordering the (Drive Stainless Coil overs).

Steve

Thanks Steve! That sounds perfect. How much do you want for them? I don't mind waiting until Feb. I think it may take me until then to find time to put them in anyway.

Thanks!
-Rick