Blueprints on ebay?

[rickjames8]

I don't know if these are legit or not (do people make counterfeit blueprints??), but there are some pretty cool DeLorean blueprints on ebay right now.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Historic-DELOREAN-MOTOR-CHASSIS-Car-Blueprint/172450735510?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D2%2 6asc%3D38530%26meid%3Df58a4732c3ca472fb90652181f36 1f70%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D5%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D1920 60177003

I have no affiliation with the seller. Just thought it was cool.

[Ryan King]

http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?5005-DMCSELLER-on-Ebay

[Ryan King]

"He's one of the son's from the law firm that dealt with the creditors against JZD/DMC. I've actually been to their offices in Detroit before to interview the lawyer who dealt with this over 20 years. They sell these original items as a way to raise more money for the people who were owed money from DMC. I've bought a lot of stuff from them, and it's all legit. Some stuff they have is multiples (original copies, etc). So your best bet is to buy original items with original sketches, etc. They have file cabinets full of stuff, pretty incredible."

[DMCVegas]

Legit indeed. However, it's a damn tragedy too. They had the most complete record of information of DMC, QACs, & the DMC-12 that was ever assembled. And they've just been scattering everything to the wind through eBay auctions for years now. Some of it is redundant stuff like superseded blueprints, some if it is casual curios like manufacturer's license plates, but there are also tons of other historical documents that answer questions about cars that we'll never know about because it's been sold off to no one knows who.

[David T]

Legit indeed. However, it's a damn tragedy too. They had the most complete record of information of DMC, QACs, & the DMC-12 that was ever assembled. And they've just been scattering everything to the wind through eBay auctions for years now. Some of it is redundant stuff like superseded blueprints, some if it is casual curios like manufacturer's license plates, but there are also tons of other historical documents that answer questions about cars that we'll never know about because it's been sold off to no one knows who.

I would hesitate to pay a lot, even for original documents. They could photocopy then and sell the copies too so you would not have bought the "only" document. Most of the stuff has no meaning except for the obsessive Delorean collector. It is a shame the collection couldn't be kept together but it is theirs to do with as they wish.

[Ryan King]

Legit indeed. However, it's a damn tragedy too. They had the most complete record of information of DMC, QACs, & the DMC-12 that was ever assembled. And they've just been scattering everything to the wind through eBay auctions for years now. Some of it is redundant stuff like superseded blueprints, some if it is casual curios like manufacturer's license plates, but there are also tons of other historical documents that answer questions about cars that we'll never know about because it's been sold off to no one knows who.

Pretty sure DMCH has all the original blueprints to every part on the DeLorean in their archives. The sad stuff to see scattered around was all the inner office memos and chatter between everyone from the company.

[DMCVegas]

I would hesitate to pay a lot, even for original documents. They could photocopy then and sell the copies too so you would not have bought the "only" document. Most of the stuff has no meaning except for the obsessive Delorean collector. It is a shame the collection couldn't be kept together but it is theirs to do with as they wish.

From the stuff that I have, they're original alright. BUT while it can be original, it isn't always accurate. I have original blueprints for the factory buildings in storage, but they're stamped as "SUPERSEDED" to show that they were not final, and thus not accurate per se. But there IS however much more value than just for an obsessive collector, as Ryan pointed out and we'll talk about in a second. There have actually been VIN-specific documents for our cars. From QAC notes to duplicate window stickers for vehicles.


Pretty sure DMCH has all the original blueprints to every part on the DeLorean in their archives. The sad stuff to see scattered around was all the inner office memos and chatter between everyone from the company.

I know that DMCH has the engineering drawings for the cars, and some other telexes and some update items. But there were other blueprints like for buildings and whatnot like I have.

It is the interoffice memos that are really key to understanding the evolution of the DMC-12 as well as the company's operations stateside that can give us a great insight into the company's operations that on one else ever has. That's what saddens me. It is their property to do with what they please, but it would have been nice to have an inventory of the items before hand. First to go ahead and create a permanent record of the events that happened. The second is for memorabilia that goes with specific cars. "dmcseller" sells allot of great stuff, but there is no master inventory of the items. Like I sad before, there are VIN-specific items that have been sold that could have been for any one of our cars, but we missed out on those items of personal interest. And those are the aspects that to me are very saddening.

[DMCVegas]

Son of a bitch! This right here proves my point:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/DELOREAN-Docs-About-DMC-80-Transbus-the-bus-that-DMC-almost-built/172451940170?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D2%2 6asc%3D38530%26meid%3D93862df587cd4089bcbe9df7beaf 2d7c%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D1724 55999582

I have a series of articles coming up in DeLorean World about the potential history of DMC, and their projects. One of the theories I has was that the DMC-80 was meant for the North American market to compete with General Motors' RTS line of buses for metropolitan use. Just like the JZD's ideology about the DMC-12 competing against the Corvette and other sports cars because it was not a highly competitive market, so did I believe that the DMC-80 was to do the same since GM was the only company that was cranking out buses designed for public transportation in North America at the time.

And right here we have the proof! DMC had full drawings of the RTS Bus, and interoffice memos about moving the DMC-80 stateside for domestic production! This not only proves my theories about the competitive products and corporate goals, but also demonstrates the kind of insight which we're loosing as this stuff gets sold off.

[SamHill]

It's been known for quite some time that Haddad wanted the bus as a jobs program in the South Bronx.

http://deloreanwiki.wikidot.com/wiki:bill-haddad

[David T]

JZD was high enough in the "food chain" at GM to have inside information about all of the potential markets for product. From snow groomers to airplane tugs to buses, those niche markets were ripe for competition. JZD also knew how GM would bid and price their products so he could compete. If he had succeeded he would have been a formidable competitor. Too bad the world economic forces went so bad at the worst time possible for him and he wound up on the wrong end of the political spectrum at the same time! There were also in house plans to come out with a 4 door or at least a 4 person version with the upgraded HP from the turbo option. There were future corporate plans for sure. There was also the paint plans and the exchange program for the panels. Just shows you why there are so few start-ups in the modern automotive world. Tesla is a rare exception.

[PJ Grady Inc.]

"He's one of the son's from the law firm that dealt with the creditors against JZD/DMC. I've actually been to their offices in Detroit before to interview the lawyer who dealt with this over 20 years. They sell these original items as a way to raise more money for the people who were owed money from DMC. I've bought a lot of stuff from them, and it's all legit. Some stuff they have is multiples (original copies, etc). So your best bet is to buy original items with original sketches, etc. They have file cabinets full of stuff, pretty incredible."

Actually if I'm not mistaken this lawyer put his sons through college with the money raised from selling these records. If he was actually giving refunds to people who lost money on their investment in DMC I'd expect he would have given us a call over the years since we lost money to the bankruptcy court. They went after us for ordering parts to offset warranty claims that the company owed us. Their debt didn't count...only the fact that we ordered parts against their debt. Please don't make these guys out to be do gooders! They are just unscrupulous lawyers who diverted money owed to DMCL's creditors into their own pockets and continue to do so 35 years later.....incredible!
Rob

[SamHill]

Rob, can you unpack that a little bit? "Their" debt didn't matter. Whose debt? A few different issues here 1) concerning the warranty and 2) I am also confused about how they diverted money. Genuine question without agenda. Of course the lawyers are going to get paid first and there won't be anything left after that; who would expect anything less, right.

The question about the records is very interesting since Barrie and others have groused about it over the years. And groused for good reason because you and they are owed money and believe the records were "looted" from New York. I don't doubt that no money has flowed to any creditors no matter how high or low on the food chain.

However, whether the records were "looted" I've always thought could be due for some examination. An argument could be made that the law requires that records be kept by the trustee for 7 years, especially since there may be future claims. After that, it gets tricky, because I would think that *personnel* records are supposed to be destroyed in order to protect personal information of the business owner and former employees. Until then, the cost of the storage of the documents is yet another cost to billed.

Devil's advocate: After the proper time period had passed, they could have all been carted out to the curb and unceremoniously buried like so many poo-filled Huggies. They certainly have value now. Did they have value in 1983? Or in 1990? The value of a signed check from JZD in 1989 while he was still living was maybe worthy enough as a keepsake for a hard core car nut, but the value of a memo from Haddad to Lander, etc? That would have been so much birdcage lining. Still kinda is.

I'm interested because I'm ignorant. I have never heard of business records being considered assets, but I could certainly be wrong. I suppose an ethical argument could be formed that since they are valuable now, dmcseller could do the "right thing" and pay off priority creditors, but I am willing to bet those creditors would still be -- you guessed it -- lawyers who had outstanding claims, leaving everyone else bupkis.

Interesting issue.

[David T]

The idea of actual ownership of the records raises a lot of questions. Under just what circumstances DOES the lawyer claim ownership? Just because he has them in his possession? None of this stuff was necessary for JZD's legal defense. Trouble is there is probably no one who can make a successful legal claim against him for those records or the money from their sale. I would guess that most of the creditors from the bankruptcy are long gone now. In any case it would cost a lot of money to pursue any claim against him. The only people that come out well in a bankruptcy are the lawyers.

[DMCVegas]

These records were not from JZD's legal defense for the criminal charges stemming from his arrest. As stated in the defense, as well as subsequent verdict, DMC had nothing to do with the arrest nor trial.

These records were from DMC's bankruptcy proceedings which took place in Michigan. The records held by dmcseller are from DeLorean Motor Company's various offices around the country, including the QACs. It was/is the most comprehensive, and I would say only unbiased record out there of DMC's operations. That is why it's preservation is so vital, and why the destruction of the collection by being parted out is opposed by so many.

[David T]

These records were not from JZD's legal defense for the criminal charges stemming from his arrest. As stated in the defense, as well as subsequent verdict, DMC had nothing to do with the arrest nor trial.

These records were from DMC's bankruptcy proceedings which took place in Michigan. The records held by dmcseller are from DeLorean Motor Company's various offices around the country, including the QACs. It was/is the most comprehensive, and I would say only unbiased record out there of DMC's operations. That is why it's preservation is so vital, and why the destruction of the collection by being parted out is opposed by so many.

Then the question still stands. Unless the lawyer was involved with the bankruptcy what is is claim to ownership of the documents and how can he justify profiting personally from their sale? I was under the impression that this lawyer represented JZD in his personal legal case, not the DMC bankruptcy. If this lawyer was the trustee for the bankruptcy any proceeds from the sale of the documents should be shared among the creditors. Of course he would be entitled to his legal fees but the creditors should see something from it too! I guess he is counting on no one coming forward and asking for any of it.

[DMCVegas]

Then the question still stands. Unless the lawyer was involved with the bankruptcy what is is claim to ownership of the documents and how can he justify profiting personally from their sale? I was under the impression that this lawyer represented JZD in his personal legal case, not the DMC bankruptcy. If this lawyer was the trustee for the bankruptcy any proceeds from the sale of the documents should be shared among the creditors. Of course he would be entitled to his legal fees but the creditors should see something from it too! I guess he is counting on no one coming forward and asking for any of it.

Oh, I totally agree. Now seeing as how this was a bankruptcy, I would have thought that these records would have remained with the Trustee instead of the debtor's lawyer. Allard was the trustee (http://www.leagle.com/decision/198885791BR766_1694/IN%20RE%20DeLOREAN%20MOTOR%20CO.), and I think it is actually his son selling this stuff. Tamir would be able to confirm that for sure since he's been to the archives. http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?5005-DMCSELLER-on-Ebay&p=71239&viewfull=1#post71239

For JZD's criminal defense, there was one law firm that he first retained (Minsky I think?), and it was one of their staff members who leaked the arrest video to Larry Flynt. Later on though is when JZD retained Howard Weizman and Donald Re.

All I can say is that the bankruptcy trial was, to be blunt, a complete and utter mess. I'm still scratching my head as to how in the world, with millions of dollars owed to creditors from Renault to Legend Industries, JZD still got to keep LMC, his 5th Avenue apartment in NYC, and Bendminster. But the only thing worse was perhaps DMC's operations itself. http://www.leagle.com/decision/198419639BR157_1135/MATTER%20OF%20DeLOREAN%20MOTOR%20CO.

[PJ Grady Inc.]

Rob, can you unpack that a little bit? "Their" debt didn't matter. Whose debt? A few different issues here 1) concerning the warranty and 2) I am also confused about how they diverted money. Genuine question without agenda. Of course the lawyers are going to get paid first and there won't be anything left after that; who would expect anything less, right.

The question about the records is very interesting since Barrie and others have groused about it over the years. And groused for good reason because you and they are owed money and believe the records were "looted" from New York. I don't doubt that no money has flowed to any creditors no matter how high or low on the food chain.

However, whether the records were "looted" I've always thought could be due for some examination. An argument could be made that the law requires that records be kept by the trustee for 7 years, especially since there may be future claims. After that, it gets tricky, because I would think that *personnel* records are supposed to be destroyed in order to protect personal information of the business owner and former employees. Until then, the cost of the storage of the documents is yet another cost to billed.

Devil's advocate: After the proper time period had passed, they could have all been carted out to the curb and unceremoniously buried like so many poo-filled Huggies. They certainly have value now. Did they have value in 1983? Or in 1990? The value of a signed check from JZD in 1989 while he was still living was maybe worthy enough as a keepsake for a hard core car nut, but the value of a memo from Haddad to Lander, etc? That would have been so much birdcage lining. Still kinda is.

I'm interested because I'm ignorant. I have never heard of business records being considered assets, but I could certainly be wrong. I suppose an ethical argument could be formed that since they are valuable now, dmcseller could do the "right thing" and pay off priority creditors, but I am willing to bet those creditors would still be -- you guessed it -- lawyers who had outstanding claims, leaving everyone else bupkis.

Interesting issue.
As an original DMC dealer we performed warranty repairs for which we we never reimbursed by DMCL to the tune of about 15K. Because we knew the company was in trouble and would not likely be in business much longer we ordered, in the final months, about the equivalent amount of replacement parts to cover those expenses. When the Detroit bankruptcy court brought the case to trial they basically discharged all debts incurred by DMCL and simultaneously brought to trial all debts owed to DMCL. I know that is SOP in these cases. We had to hire a Detroit based attorney at the rate of $500- per hour (In 1983 dollars!) to represent us. By the time the case went to court the attorney for the bankruptcy proceedings David J. Allard (IIRC the exact name. I could be wrong on the middle initial) allowed that we had a legitimate defense but that the court had to get something so we settled at 10 cents on the dollar ($1500-)which sounded good on paper. The rub was that combined with our lawyer's bill we spent about 13K to get our day in court. We came out losing 2K less than not fighting the case so it was almost a wash. What bothered me most was seeing the son(s?) of the prosecuting attorney benefit from the sale of all these paper records which the court really had no use for in the first place. These records turned into highly sought after collectible assets over time. For instance I was told the initial stock certificate sold for 15K for that single piece of paper! So when you extrapolate over many thousands of records you can see the potential income from this was sizable to say the least. Apparently it was enough to put one or more of his sons through law school with much more left to sell. This income should have gone to actual creditors and/or some effort could have been extended to try and keep the more important documents together for historical purposes. Neither of those things happened but somebody made a windfall profit of likely hundreds of thousands of dollars with no end in sight. A judicial system that allows this to happen is broken and needs fixing.
Rob

[SamHill]

and why the destruction of the collection by being parted out ...


Scattered, yes. Destroyed, no. He could outright destroy them if he wanted to.

The only thing I can think of being even slightly analogous is when the DMA visited David Cammack in Alexandria to see his Tucker collection. Cammack was a dedicated collector: he knew a person decades ago who had all the old Tucker records and drawings. The story he told is that he approached the man and offered him a large sum of money. The man flatly refused for a reason I don't remember. Could have been he was a hoarder, and hoarders can't bear to part with anything. At any rate, when he died, the bulk of his stuff was thrown out. Cammack got there in time to rescue a great many records from the curb right before they went to the dump.

And so it could have been with these records, a long time ago, except that here, a hope for future profit kept them from being destroyed.

[SamHill]

As an original DMC dealer we performed warranty repairs for which we we never reimbursed by DMCL to the tune of about 15K. Because we knew the company was in trouble and would not likely be in business much longer we ordered, in the final months, about the equivalent amount of replacement parts to cover those expenses. When the Detroit bankruptcy court brought the case to trial they basically discharged all debts incurred by DMCL and simultaneously brought to trial all debts owed to DMCL. I know that is SOP in these cases. We had to hire a Detroit based attorney at the rate of $500- per hour (In 1983 dollars!) to represent us. By the time the case went to court the attorney for the bankruptcy proceedings David J. Allard (IIRC the exact name. I could be wrong on the middle initial) allowed that we had a legitimate defense but that the court had to get something so we settled at 10 cents on the dollar ($1500-)which sounded good on paper. The rub was that combined with our lawyer's bill we spent about 13K to get our day in court. We came out losing 2K less than not fighting the case so it was almost a wash. What bothered me most was seeing the son(s?) of the prosecuting attorney benefit from the sale of all these paper records which the court really had no use for in the first place. These records turned into highly sought after collectible assets over time. For instance I was told the initial stock certificate sold for 15K for that single piece of paper! So when you extrapolate over many thousands of records you can see the potential income from this was sizable to say the least. Apparently it was enough to put one or more of his sons through law school with much more left to sell. This income should have gone to actual creditors and/or some effort could have been extended to try and keep the more important documents together for historical purposes. Neither of those things happened but somebody made a windfall profit of likely hundreds of thousands of dollars with no end in sight. A judicial system that allows this to happen is broken and needs fixing.
Rob

Thanks for the explanation, Rob. A bankruptcy is a feeding frenzy.

[David T]

Thanks for the explanation, Rob. A bankruptcy is a feeding frenzy.

Having been involved with several bankruptcies I can tell you from the creditor's prospective it is a no win situation. There is "claw back". Any deal done 180 days prior to the date of filing the court can claw back any money paid out. The court can decide what to pay and how much. The attorneys who deal in this area of law charge their clients a LOT of money knowing full well their clients will never get enough back to justify their legal expenses let alone recoup any losses. About a creditor's only recourse is through the tax loss incurred. Trump found a way to lose almost a BILLION dollars and save it on taxes through bankruptcy! It is a travesty of justice but that is our legal system today. Somehow, someway that lawyer peddling all of these documents should be held to account for all of the money he profited from them over the years at the expense of the legitimate creditors. Legend Industries lost his business because of DMC and he should see something too. And any other creditors that may still be around. maybe if they all got together they could afford to do something if there is any money left (it hasn't all been spent by the attorney on his son's college).

[PJ Grady Inc.]

Dave T. said "Having been involved with several bankruptcies I can tell you from the creditor's prospective it is a no win situation." That pretty much sums it up. Why would we as creditors throw more money at more lawyers to go after another lawyer who gamed the system in a bankruptcy proceeding ? That sounds like the proverbial Mother of financial sinkholes!
Rob

[DMCVegas]

As an original DMC dealer we performed warranty repairs for which we we never reimbursed by DMCL to the tune of about 15K. Because we knew the company was in trouble and would not likely be in business much longer we ordered, in the final months, about the equivalent amount of replacement parts to cover those expenses. When the Detroit bankruptcy court brought the case to trial they basically discharged all debts incurred by DMCL and simultaneously brought to trial all debts owed to DMCL. I know that is SOP in these cases. We had to hire a Detroit based attorney at the rate of $500- per hour (In 1983 dollars!) to represent us. By the time the case went to court the attorney for the bankruptcy proceedings David J. Allard (IIRC the exact name. I could be wrong on the middle initial) allowed that we had a legitimate defense but that the court had to get something so we settled at 10 cents on the dollar ($1500-)which sounded good on paper. The rub was that combined with our lawyer's bill we spent about 13K to get our day in court. We came out losing 2K less than not fighting the case so it was almost a wash. What bothered me most was seeing the son(s?) of the prosecuting attorney benefit from the sale of all these paper records which the court really had no use for in the first place. These records turned into highly sought after collectible assets over time. For instance I was told the initial stock certificate sold for 15K for that single piece of paper! So when you extrapolate over many thousands of records you can see the potential income from this was sizable to say the least. Apparently it was enough to put one or more of his sons through law school with much more left to sell. This income should have gone to actual creditors and/or some effort could have been extended to try and keep the more important documents together for historical purposes. Neither of those things happened but somebody made a windfall profit of likely hundreds of thousands of dollars with no end in sight. A judicial system that allows this to happen is broken and needs fixing.
Rob

Middle initial was W I believe. He passed away a few years ago.
http://deathnotices.michigan.com/view-single.php?id=327385

Out of curiosity, how were you able to order parts? Reason I ask is because of a story I heard from a former sales manager. Allegedly Walt Epprecht's Las Vegas Dodge was owed over $32K or so in warranty work from DMC, so in turn they ordered an almost equal amount of parts from DMC. Vehicle accessories like ski racks & floor mats, and then other easily salable parts like wheels, engines, transmissions, body panels, etc. Then when DMC sent them the bill, the dealership sent back a letter that they'd remit payment for the parts order once they were paid for the warranty work owed. The next day DMC sent out a telex to all dealerships that any parts orders were then to be cash and carry only with no net-30 terms allowed.

Did DMC change this policy back later on, or is that story not true?

[David T]

Middle initial was W I believe. He passed away a few years ago.
http://deathnotices.michigan.com/view-single.php?id=327385

Out of curiosity, how were you able to order parts? Reason I ask is because of a story I heard from a former sales manager. Allegedly Walt Epprecht's Las Vegas Dodge was owed over $32K or so in warranty work from DMC, so in turn they ordered an almost equal amount of parts from DMC. Vehicle accessories like ski racks & floor mats, and then other easily salable parts like wheels, engines, transmissions, body panels, etc. Then when DMC sent them the bill, the dealership sent back a letter that they'd remit payment for the parts order once they were paid for the warranty work owed. The next day DMC sent out a telex to all dealerships that any parts orders were then to be cash and carry only with no net-30 terms allowed.

Did DMC change this policy back later on, or is that story not true?

Claw Back also applies to parts and services, not just cash. The trustee would just have to request the court to issue a judgement to get the money. As for hiring a lawyer at this point, yes, it can be a black hole but this is not bankruptcy court so you have a fairer chance. Is it worth it, I don't know.

A lawyer speaking to a prospective client, "Your case has merit, just how much justice can you afford"?

[PJ Grady Inc.]

Middle initial was W I believe. He passed away a few years ago.
http://deathnotices.michigan.com/view-single.php?id=327385

Out of curiosity, how were you able to order parts? Reason I ask is because of a story I heard from a former sales manager. Allegedly Walt Epprecht's Las Vegas Dodge was owed over $32K or so in warranty work from DMC, so in turn they ordered an almost equal amount of parts from DMC. Vehicle accessories like ski racks & floor mats, and then other easily salable parts like wheels, engines, transmissions, body panels, etc. Then when DMC sent them the bill, the dealership sent back a letter that they'd remit payment for the parts order once they were paid for the warranty work owed. The next day DMC sent out a telex to all dealerships that any parts orders were then to be cash and carry only with no net-30 terms allowed.

Did DMC change this policy back later on, or is that story not true?

No that sounds right but we were a bit ahead of the curve as they stopped paying warranty claims long before the end came. We started matching our parts orders to money owed early on in the game.
Rob