Radiator replacement

[Fluxn83]

For those who have to do a radiator replacement, what other parts do you recommend having for a complete replacement (aside from the radiator itself obviously)? I ask because sometime down the road, I'll have to do one.
Thanks in advance!

-Chris

[David T]

For those who have to do a radiator replacement, what other parts do you recommend having for a complete replacement (aside from the radiator itself obviously)? I ask because sometime down the road, I'll have to do one.
Thanks in advance!

-Chris

Hoses and coolant. Also make sure the condenser coil is clean and if the A/C isn't working, the seals and A/C hoses. You may also need a lot of small nuts, bolts, and washers if you wind up breaking them, taking things apart. Inspect the fan motors and blades.

[Fluxn83]

Thank you so much!

[Mark D]

You may also want to look at upgraded fans if you haven't already. Having the radiator pulled is a perfect time to swap fans since you're already going to be pulling the shroud and have access. I wish I had done it when I replaced my radiator a few years ago. I'm looking at doing replacement fans next year and not looking forward to having to pull the radiator again.

[Bitsyncmaster]

You may also want to look at upgraded fans if you haven't already. Having the radiator pulled is a perfect time to swap fans since you're already going to be pulling the shroud and have access. I wish I had done it when I replaced my radiator a few years ago. I'm looking at doing replacement fans next year and not looking forward to having to pull the radiator again.

+1

OEM fans will end up drawing 15 amps each or more as they age. Then you will get melted fan fail jumpers and risk overheating the engine.

[cdrusn]

No doubt replacing fans with more modern efficient ones is a must do. The next pressing question is what mixture of coolant, orange or green will you use?:race:

[PJ Grady Inc.]

You may also want to look at upgraded fans if you haven't already. Having the radiator pulled is a perfect time to swap fans since you're already going to be pulling the shroud and have access. I wish I had done it when I replaced my radiator a few years ago. I'm looking at doing replacement fans next year and not looking forward to having to pull the radiator again.

Personally I believe most "upgraded" high efficiency fans are actually a step backwards when it comes to absolute cooling capability. They do not have the same cfm airflow as the stock fans do. On hot days when ambient temps exceed 90 degrees you can expect the "high efficiency fan" equipped Delorean to have A/C outlet temperatures about 10 degrees hotter than a stock car. Although they do decrease the load on the electrical system they do so at a cost due to the decreased airflow. My favorite setup is still the stock fans paired with a Fanzilla relay module and a three row brass or aluminum radiator. That provides superior cooling capability along with smooth power delivery and colder A/C temps.
Rob

[Delorean Industries]

Lol

[PJ Grady Inc.]

Lol

Prove me wrong Josh and you can laugh till you're blue in the face! I've tried your fans. They are not as strong as stock fans.
Rob

[DMC-81]

Personally I believe most "upgraded" high efficiency fans are actually a step backwards when it comes to absolute cooling capability. They do not have the same cfm airflow as the stock fans do. On hot days when ambient temps exceed 90 degrees you can expect the "high efficiency fan" equipped Delorean to have A/C outlet temperatures about 10 degrees hotter than a stock car. Although they do decrease the load on the electrical system they do so at a cost due to the decreased airflow. My favorite setup is still the stock fans paired with a Fanzilla relay module and a three row brass or aluminum radiator. That provides superior cooling capability along with smooth power delivery and colder A/C temps.
Rob

Yeah, I had good luck refurbishing my stock fans when I restored my cooling system (they were not all rusted out or had high miles). Together with an aluminum DMCH radiator they keep my car cool in the Florida heat. This summer, it got as high as 108 degrees, and the car ran cool. I'm running the fan jumpers but I plan to upgrade to a fan fail module for extra peace of mind.

The Delorean World Tour guys swore by stock fans. They ran them all the way around the world and said that was because of their cfm efficiency and that you can take them apart and repair them if necessary.

I'm running Prestone 50/50 green coolant.

48012

[David T]

Prove me wrong Josh and you can laugh till you're blue in the face! I've tried your fans. They are not as strong as stock fans.
Rob


As important as the fans can be, once you get up to about 30 MPH they aren't really necessary anymore due to the ram effect of moving through the air. With the newer type fans properly installed on a good duct you can achieve the same airflow at lower currents. I don't often see it done well though.

[DL4567]

You may also want to look at upgraded fans if you haven't already. Having the radiator pulled is a perfect time to swap fans since you're already going to be pulling the shroud and have access. I wish I had done it when I replaced my radiator a few years ago. I'm looking at doing replacement fans next year and not looking forward to having to pull the radiator again.

I replaced my fans a few months ago, without removing the radiator. It was a hell of job though, and I can see it was one step short of pulling the radiator. No fun.

[PJ Grady Inc.]

As important as the fans can be, once you get up to about 30 MPH they aren't really necessary anymore due to the ram effect of moving through the air. With the newer type fans properly installed on a good duct you can achieve the same airflow at lower currents. I don't often see it done well though.

Ok David I've seen every common high efficiency setup out there so far and none put out like the stock fans. Which setup are you referring to? BTW I'm aware that the fans are unneeded at higher speeds.
Rob

[PJ Grady Inc.]

No doubt replacing fans with more modern efficient ones is a must do. The next pressing question is what mixture of coolant, orange or green will you use?:race:

Go green!
Rob

[Bitsyncmaster]

I did some CFM testing a long time ago and as expected the higher current fans did have higher CFM. It does make sense if your fans are drawing more power (watts = current times voltage) that you get more air moved. I don't know how much the fan blade design affects efficiency.

The problem with the OEM fans is the stock wiring does not handle currents approaching 15 amps each. I have seen a few fan fail jumpers with fuses melt and one caught fire on a friends car.

I have tested a set of OEM fans that only used a little less than 10 amps each. But many have been tested in the car that run 14 amps each. So I used that set of 14 amp fans to bench test. My bench testing showed 15 amps each because my bench test has less wiring and less voltage drop. I then opened one of those fan motors and cleaned the commutator of the dust build up from the brushes. I expected the current to drop to the 10 amps like a new OEM fan would run. But the fan current actually increased to 15.8 amps on my bench test. So what is causing the fans to increase current? Only thing left is the permanent field magnets and the shaft bearings.

The real test is driving uphill in the mountains on a hot summer day an watching how much your temp gauge climes. I'm running Toby's fans with the EU radiator and so far have not seen any temp changes but have not really done the mountains on a 100 deg. day yet.

[Delorean Industries]

You don't want me to do that Rob. If you instigate with nothing more than "seems like less" I will serve up an empirical evidence driven real world testing beating. It will rival the fact checker on Trumps twitter account.

[kenny]

You don't want me to do that Rob. If you instigate with nothing more than "seems like less" I will serve up an empirical evidence driven real world testing beating. It will rival the fact checker on Trumps twitter account.

Josh I would expect it is in your interest for future fan sales to share any testing info with your customer base?

[Bitsyncmaster]

CFM testing is hard to get an absolute accuracy. So your best testing is done with the same test setup comparing each fan type side by side. I used a Hot wire Anemometer but that only measures the airflow at one point. So I did my testing about one inch from the edge of the fan blade. The fan blade design would have a large effect of the air movement differences along the entire fan blades. Obviously where the motor is mounted there is no fan blades and no air flow there. The tips of the blades have the highest speeds so you would think air flow is best there. Some fan blades use higher pitch near the center to compensate.

The best way to get an absolute accuracy would be to have a 1000 cubic foot plastic bag and test how long it takes to fill the bag.

[Delorean Industries]

Josh I would expect it is in your interest for future fan sales to share any testing info with your customer base?

No lol. I don't care if people buy our products or not honestly. I just won't let our hard work and development be attacked based on feels like less to me testing standards.

[Iznodmad]

Josh I would expect it is in your interest for future fan sales to share any testing info with your customer base?

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161228/28051e63a82ee5f57bc9b7c9eda10a44.png

Looks like he puts the info right on the website for the new fans as far as flow and draw is concerned. Who gives a crap what crusty old fans do or don't do. They fail eventually like everything else "factory". I refuse to put old crap on my cars. The newest and the best for me!

[Bitsyncmaster]

As important as the fans can be, once you get up to about 30 MPH they aren't really necessary anymore due to the ram effect of moving through the air. With the newer type fans properly installed on a good duct you can achieve the same airflow at lower currents. I don't often see it done well though.

Do you have data as to "you don't need fans above 30 MPH"? I guess it could be tested by turning the fans off and running some testing. It would also depend on the ambient air temp and if your running the AC.

[Delorean Industries]

Do you have data as to "you don't need fans above 30 MPH"? I guess it could be tested by turning the fans off and running some testing. It would also depend on the ambient air temp and if your running the AC.

This is a loaded question... Short answer is extensive testing shows the car can not function without the fans. The placement of fans/condensor coupled with air inlet makes it very easy for this to form an unwanted diffuser element. This is why it can get really hot on top of our fuel tanks....

[David T]

This is a loaded question... Short answer is extensive testing shows the car can not function without the fans. The placement of fans/condensor coupled with air inlet makes it very easy for this to form an unwanted diffuser element. This is why it can get really hot on top of our fuel tanks....

The exact speed at which the fans are no longer required to move enough air through the radiator is about 30 MPH. Of course it depends on road conditions and ambient temperature, what grade of fuel, how well tuned up the motor is, a LOT of variables. As we all know if you turn on the A/C it will force the fans to run whenever the clutch is engaged on the A/C compressor so the above 30 MPH is with the A/C off. If you look up the specs on the Spall fans they claim more CFM then the OEM specs. Obviously the ductwork and radiator will affect the total CFM of any installation. The specs are in "free air" so you can't expect that much when installed. The bottom line is the newer fans can move more air with less electric. I believe a lot has to do with the shape of the fan blades. The newer style are probably more efficient. IMHO nothing wrong with the OEM fans that can't be overcome with a Fanzilla or comparable device. All of this conversation presupposes you are comparing good working fans. Trying to compare 30 year old fans that aren't working well vs something new is not a fair comparison.

[PJ Grady Inc.]

No lol. I don't care if people buy our products or not honestly. I just won't let our hard work and development be attacked based on feels like less to me testing standards.

I wasn't attacking your fan setup Josh. I think yours is better than most actually. I was simply giving a IMHO about the newer fans in general and you replied with a LOL but no further explanation. This prompted me to defend my position. I was giving my opinion based on the facts as I see them but without empirical testing. If you have such testing you wish to put forward I have no problem with that. What makes you think I was zeroing in on your fans with an "attack"? Rest assured that was not my intention.
Rob

[mr_maxime]

Does CFM truly matter as opposed to actually keeping the car cool? It wouldnt be that complicated to test. You could set up an electric heater and water pump to a hose and hook it up to the radiator and fans attached to a front fascia. You could test a stock setup vs a new radiator and fan setup. It wouldnt represent the car perfectly but it would give fair working comparison of the 2. The stock setup has a brass radiator with lower thermal conductivity than aluminum radiator. So even if the new lower current fans have less CFM than stock, the higher thermal conductivity of the aluminum radiator might compensate.

[David T]

Does CFM truly matter as opposed to actually keeping the car cool? It wouldnt be that complicated to test. You could set up an electric heater and water pump to a hose and hook it up to the radiator and fans attached to a front fascia. You could test a stock setup vs a new radiator and fan setup. It wouldnt represent the car perfectly but it would give fair working comparison of the 2. The stock setup has a brass radiator with lower thermal conductivity than aluminum radiator. So even if the new lower current fans have less CFM than stock, the higher thermal conductivity of the aluminum radiator might compensate.

It gets a whole lot more complicated than your over-simplification. One problem is the thermostat. If the radiator was to "overcool" then the thermostat would just shut to keep the motor at operating temperature and the otterstadt switch would shut the fans off. The use of the CFM rating of the fans is to try to roughly compare the efficiency of one part of a system. Proper testing can get quite complex trying to account for all of the variables in the cooling system. One thing to consider is if your old fans are bad and you are considering replacing them, the newer style could be the better choice for a lot of reasons and not all have to do with thermodynamics. Economics (prices) also affect your decision. BTW one of the reasons the fuel can get so hot is because the pipes full of coolant run right alongside the bottom of the tank. Between that and the hot air coming out of the radiator, it is no wonder the fuel gets so hot. Some owners have installed a big flap of rubber to deflect some of that hot air downward away from the fuel tank. Others have wrapped the fuel line around the accumulator on the A/C to try to cool the fuel. When the fuel gets really hot the pick-up hose on the OEM style fuel set-up can collapse under the vacuum making the fuel pump noisy and shortening it's life. The fuel pump is cooled and lubricated by moving fuel through it. Running the fuel pump with no fuel because the pick-up hose has collapsed is very bad for it.

[Bitsyncmaster]

Does CFM truly matter as opposed to actually keeping the car cool? It wouldnt be that complicated to test. You could set up an electric heater and water pump to a hose and hook it up to the radiator and fans attached to a front fascia. You could test a stock setup vs a new radiator and fan setup. It wouldnt represent the car perfectly but it would give fair working comparison of the 2. The stock setup has a brass radiator with lower thermal conductivity than aluminum radiator. So even if the new lower current fans have less CFM than stock, the higher thermal conductivity of the aluminum radiator might compensate.

Good thinking. Maybe the OEM fans were overpowered anyway. I think the fact they had to recall the fan fail suggests the OEM fans did draw more power after they aged. The OEM radiator efficiency is probably less than the new vendor replacements.

It all boils down to engine not overheating and AC cooling enough. I don't think anyone has complained that the low power fans don't work good enough. But there is an EU vendor selling 3.5 amp fans now and I am waiting to hear how those are working out.

[PJ Grady Inc.]

Does CFM truly matter as opposed to actually keeping the car cool? It wouldnt be that complicated to test. You could set up an electric heater and water pump to a hose and hook it up to the radiator and fans attached to a front fascia. You could test a stock setup vs a new radiator and fan setup. It wouldnt represent the car perfectly but it would give fair working comparison of the 2. The stock setup has a brass radiator with lower thermal conductivity than aluminum radiator. So even if the new lower current fans have less CFM than stock, the higher thermal conductivity of the aluminum radiator might compensate.

CFM of moving air is what cools the radiator. The NOS radiator was actually a single row aluminum unit with plastic tanks that cooled the car well despite being fragile when encountering impacts of any sort. Changing from one aluminum radiator to another will only help if you increase surface area and/or coolant capacity.
Rob

[David T]

More CFM can increase cooling capacity (BTU transfer) but only up to a point. The moving air must maintain contact for a long enough period of time to allow transfer of heat, it is not an instantaneous process. You can get bogged down in static pressures vs positive pressures and other aerodynamic effects. As Rob said, if the cr-py OEM system was adequate, (at least when new and in good working condition) anything you do to improve it can't be a bad thing. It is NOT all about CFM. CFM is just one of many variables that must be considered.

[mr_maxime]

CFM of moving air is what cools the radiator. The NOS radiator was actually a single row aluminum unit with plastic tanks that cooled the car well despite being fragile when encountering impacts of any sort. Changing from one aluminum radiator to another will only help if you increase surface area and/or coolant capacity.
Rob

Oh, I read that it was brass on the DMC knowledge base site. http://support.delorean.com/kb/a44/radiator.aspx


It gets a whole lot more complicated than your over-simplification. One problem is the thermostat. If the radiator was to "overcool" then the thermostat would just shut to keep the motor at operating temperature and the otterstadt switch would shut the fans off. The use of the CFM rating of the fans is to try to roughly compare the efficiency of one part of a system.

How does the thermostat affect the efficiency the cooling? I didn't get much time to elaborate on my testing condition, but it would simulate sitting at idle in 70F ambient temp. As stated, CFM is difficult to calculate, so it would be easier to see how long it would take a stock setup to cool the running coolant from 220F to 150F vs a new setup in identical conditions. That way you eliminate the need to calculate CFM. If it takes both setups the same amount of time to cool the system, then you know even if the new fans have less CFM you have the same cooling efficiency as the stock setup with less current draw. I don't see why you would focus on one part of the system when you are changing at least 2.

Anyways, my fans don't seem to turn on when the temp is high enough, so Derek you mind helping me change out my fans??

[David T]

Oh, I read that it was brass on the DMC knowledge base site. http://support.delorean.com/kb/a44/radiator.aspx



How does the thermostat affect the efficiency the cooling? I didn't get much time to elaborate on my testing condition, but it would simulate sitting at idle in 70F ambient temp. As stated, CFM is difficult to calculate, so it would be easier to see how long it would take a stock setup to cool the running coolant from 220F to 150F vs a new setup in identical conditions. That way you eliminate the need to calculate CFM. If it takes both setups the same amount of time to cool the system, then you know even if the new fans have less CFM you have the same cooling efficiency as the stock setup with less current draw. I don't see why you would focus on one part of the system when you are changing at least 2.

Anyways, my fans don't seem to turn on when the temp is high enough, so Derek you mind helping me change out my fans??


If you can imagine an "ideal" radiator and the temp of the coolant going in was 250 and coming out was 70 the motor would not be able to run hot enough. It is designed to operate at about 180 so there is a device called a thermostat which is a valve that stops the water from going to the rad so the coolant (and the motor) will heat up. Once it gets to the right temperature the thermostat opens and sends the coolant to the rad to be cooled. When the thermostat is closed the fans don't need to run. Now add this, when the thermostat opens and sends the hot coolant to the rad for cooling the fans still aren't running. The fans only run when the Otterstat switch gets hot enough to turn the fans on. That way if you are moving fast enough, you don't need the fans so the O switch keeps the fans off. All of this stuff is designed so as to work together in harmony to keep the motor's temperature in a narrow operating band where it is most efficient. Making one part of this system different from what was designed can change the way the whole thing operates. Like most things you must approach it from a "systems" design and understand how each part operates as part of a larger system before tinkering with one part.

[steve]

All I know is that with the OEM fans it took X minuets to cool and shut down. This was tested over and over.
The new Low Voltage High Efficiency fans take 1/2 of X to cool and shut down. This was tested over and over.

I don't get the argument.
Steve

[mr_maxime]

When testing something you don't need a full working system for a proper test. I mean you could test it with the thermostat and otterstat as well if you wanted to, but I just dont see the point if their purpose to to stop coolant flow or turn fans on or off. Those are both functions that could be tied back to the controller running the test. You could set the pump to kick on at whatever temperature you want and same with the fans. You could even do R&D that way to optimize at what temp the thermostat and otterstat should work for optimal engine temp. Seeing as how CFM impacts how quickly a radiator would cool, I was just isolating the fans and radiator because both are being changed. You could easily set a thermal probe at the inlet and outlet of the radiator as well to see the difference between stock and new. Testing the system when coolant is not running and fans are off doesnt really matter if youre trying to make sure if a lower CFM fan provides adequate flow to cool the coolant to normal operating conditions. This, I think would be more accurate than simply using specs that aren't easily measured and saying lower CFM is a step back when the efficiency of a new radiator isnt tested along it. I understand that all of this stuff must work in harmony to keep the engine running properly and must take a system approach to see how they function together, which I why I suggested testing the fans on the radiator as opposed to simply comparing CFM. If you're not changing out the radiator, then of course CFM comparison might be sufficient.


All I know is that with the OEM fans it took X minuets to cool and shut down. This was tested over and over.
The new Low Voltage High Efficiency fans take 1/2 of X to cool and shut down. This was tested over and over.


This X all I'm trying to test minus a whole car cause its easier without risk of overheating the engine.

[Henrik]

For those who have to do a radiator replacement, what other parts do you recommend having for a complete replacement (aside from the radiator itself obviously)? I ask because sometime down the road, I'll have to do one.
Thanks in advance!

-Chris

To get back to Chris' initial question... or more like a "lessons learned" type of thing: When I replaced my stock radiator with a DMC aluminum ditto I should have removed the condenser too. Sure, it is possible to do it with the condenser in place but it was a royal pain. In my mind it's worth an AC evacuation/vacuum/recharge to keep the radiator's aluminum fins from getting crushed.

[David T]

When testing something you don't need a full working system for a proper test. I mean you could test it with the thermostat and otterstat as well if you wanted to, but I just dont see the point if their purpose to to stop coolant flow or turn fans on or off. Those are both functions that could be tied back to the controller running the test. You could set the pump to kick on at whatever temperature you want and same with the fans. You could even do R&D that way to optimize at what temp the thermostat and otterstat should work for optimal engine temp. Seeing as how CFM impacts how quickly a radiator would cool, I was just isolating the fans and radiator because both are being changed. You could easily set a thermal probe at the inlet and outlet of the radiator as well to see the difference between stock and new. Testing the system when coolant is not running and fans are off doesnt really matter if youre trying to make sure if a lower CFM fan provides adequate flow to cool the coolant to normal operating conditions. This, I think would be more accurate than simply using specs that aren't easily measured and saying lower CFM is a step back when the efficiency of a new radiator isnt tested along it. I understand that all of this stuff must work in harmony to keep the engine running properly and must take a system approach to see how they function together, which I why I suggested testing the fans on the radiator as opposed to simply comparing CFM. If you're not changing out the radiator, then of course CFM comparison might be sufficient.



This X all I'm trying to test minus a whole car cause its easier without risk of overheating the engine.

The last time I heard the logic that you don't need an "end-to-end" full systems test was NASA when they first sent up the Hubble telescope. We all know how that one turned out! You will quickly find out if you accounted for ALL of the variables.

[DMC02566]

For those who have to do a radiator replacement, what other parts do you recommend having for a complete replacement (aside from the radiator itself obviously)? I ask because sometime down the road, I'll have to do one.
Thanks in advance!

-Chris

First I would recommend taking contortionist classes or training a small handed monkey to reach into the small spaces you will have to work. I did mine with the car on ramps and found it difficult to get my big mitts into the space. Take your time. If you look at how the car was built, the radiator was in place before the body and a bunch of other stuff.

Take a look at all of your hoses as they may be the originals and in need of replacement and it would be a shame to finish the radiator replacement only to loose coolant to an old hose breaking. When I purchased my car in 2006 it still had original hoses under the car. This job takes about all day with the car on a lift.

Good Luck,

Lee Edmonson
# 02566

[Chris 16409]

I just noticed that my radiator has sprung a leak. It's only a few years old too. I'm going to get one of Ed Uding's from DMC-EU. I have a friend who has one and swears by it. I hate having to do a job over again because of a faulty part. There's a hole somewhere in the thing. I found coolant sprayed on the box covering the washer fluid bottle.

[ed uding]

To make it all simple, this is what you shoot see for.

Radiator: you have some options. But the old stock one, with the plastic chambers is no option to drive any more.
Cooling fans: stock and upgrade, ( with a good Radiator the new style Fans can do the job any way) Performance v8 engine's stay still cool with the right Radiator.
Water pipe's: inspect the inside of the pipe just where the clamp was on the outside, on this spot you start to see small put holes. perfect time to replace it now.
Thermostat: we still see them without the small pin that hold the small hole open to bleed the system. (Test it by push the RH water hose from the waterpump flat, you can do it a couple of time. Now you can hear the pin moving inside, if so you are ok.
If not, bay a new one with a new rubber gasket, and no dirty silicone.
Inspect the condensor, it the aluminium between the cores is bend to heavy, it block the air flow. you can bend it back with a small screw driver, but there is always a risk to brake it. The aluminium is weak and oft rusty.

Best way if you have time, is to strip the system down. Make your list and bay what you neat.

Regards Ed
www.delorean.eu

[cdrusn]

I just noticed that my radiator has sprung a leak. It's only a few years old too. I'm going to get one of Ed Uding's from DMC-EU. I have a friend who has one and swears by it. I hate having to do a job over again because of a faulty part. There's a hole somewhere in the thing. I found coolant sprayed on the box covering the washer fluid bottle.

Borrow a cooling system pressure tester from auto zone or O'Reillys and pressurize the system and see where the leak is. Might be a hose and not the radiator especially one so new. :race: