Sports Car Market magazine puts a Sell recomm. on the DMC-12

[Rich]

Caught a DMC-12 investment call in the October 2016 issue of Sports Car Market magazine.

The DMC-12 summary in that month's Buy/Sell/Hold market report says Sell: "...a new generation of buyer has fallen in love with the DMC-12. We've seen prices at auction crest $40K for good stock examples....the market is buying and you should be selling."

Includes a graph of DMC-12 median selling prices at auction since 2007.

It also has a Buy recommendation out for the '88-'91 Ferrari F40, something a tad pricier than a DeLorean.

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[cdrusn]

I guess it all depends on why you own the car. Yes, its nice to know it's worth some good money but where are you going to put your money where you can drive it around when you feel like it. I doubt a daily driver nice condition car is worth $41K but from what I've seen on ebay it looks like they are still trending up around $29K. With prices hitting the stratosphere in cars like Porsche 911, 240Z, Shelby, 'Cuda the Delorean is an alternative investment that is relatively a bargain. :race:

[Michael]

I wonder if those same people put a "sell" advisory on other cars when they just began to rise? My point is the pinnacle of values might be far away and unless you are just desparate, why sell JUST as values start to rise?

[louielouie2000]

I wonder if those same people put a "sell" advisory on other cars when they just began to rise? My point is the pinnacle of values might be far away and unless you are just desparate, why sell JUST as values start to rise?

I wondered the same thing. In the past I've long questioned if a handful of high profile sales of DeLoreans in the $40-$60k range actually meant anything. For every one of those big dollar sales, I can point to people I know firsthand who bought similar condition cars in the $10-$25k range during the same time period. However, within the past year or so I've finally become convinced that the majority of DeLoreans are indeed starting to sell for prices that are exceeding inflation. So where is the evidence to prove values have plateaud or are on the downhill? I haven't seen anything which proves that.

To me, the market is still somewhat fleshing out what the DeLorean is worth, and what sort of prestige it holds in the automotive pantheon. I'm guessing the majority of people who buy DeLoreans these days are Gen X & Gen Y. They were too young to remember or were not even born when the cocaine scandal erupted and the company collapsed; events which soiled the car for most people of that era. This effectively wipes out the stigma the DeLorean once carried. Instead, the car is a quirky underdog to a very nerdy, hipster generation who love it because of its flaws.

I guess there are some potential red flags, though. Gen X & Gen Y don't really have the wages and buying power of previous generations. They are also nowhere near as car-centric. Perhaps these point to possible limits on classic car values in the coming years? I've also noticed a market correction in cars like the air cooled 911s recently, while '90s cars such as the Supra continue to go through the roof. Is there danger the DeLorean's moment has already passed? Only time will tell I guess.

I also think a lot rides on DMC-Texas repro DeLorean project. If these cars do end up a reality and sell for 6 figures, it will undoubtedly buoy interest and values in original cars. Since we don't currently know if these cars will become a reality, talk of DeLorean values flat lining is definitely premature.

[sdg3205]

If the fall of wall street and bailout of the banks has shown us anything it's that nobody knows a damn thing when it comes to finances and investing, but they sure as hell pretend they do. I wouldn't listen to the magazine.

[Jonathan]

If the fall of wall street and bailout of the banks has shown us anything it's that nobody knows a damn thing when it comes to finances and investing, but they sure as hell pretend they do. I wouldn't listen to the magazine.

Agreed on not following this magazine's advice. "Still haunted by drug trafficking charges?" Still haunted? Who is still haunted? D'oh!

On a side note, along the lines of what Dave said about how poor we all are at predicting things (mostly because we can only base it on what has already happened, which is a flawed way of thinking), here's a good read on that sort of subject:

http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/black-swan-nassim-nicholas-taleb/1100358220?ean=9780812973815#productInfoTabs

It's called The Black Swan by Nassim Nicholas Taleb. It's not about cars at all, but has some eye opening thoughts on seeing things coming, or rather NOT seeing things coming.

[AugustneverEnds]

If the fall of wall street and bailout of the banks has shown us anything it's that nobody knows a damn thing when it comes to finances and investing, but they sure as hell pretend they do. I wouldn't listen to the magazine.

Bulls-eye

[Rich_NYS]

In 2013/2014, did the magazine make any predictions on the direction of prices in the years following 2015 (or are they just looking at current trends?)

[DMCVegas]

I'm guessing the majority of people who buy DeLoreans these days are Gen X & Gen Y. They were too young to remember or were not even born when the cocaine scandal erupted and the company collapsed; events which soiled the car for most people of that era. This effectively wipes out the stigma the DeLorean once carried. Instead, the car is a quirky underdog to a very nerdy, hipster generation who love it because of its flaws.

I don't think that the stigma has worn away simply because many buyers are not old enough to remember the scandal. Not at all. There are plenty of sources to learn the history of the car, and hack writers such as this one that do their damnedest to perpetuate that history to make everyone as aware of it as possible. Be it for a cheap joke, or a lazy way to try and prove themselves "knowledgeable".

From my experience, I'd say that the reason the stigma has worn off is simply because younger owners just don't care. Both about the past negative press, and especially when it comes to what other people think. Which is a complete cultural departure the first generation of owners and their relationship with these cars. Back then you practically were not allowed to say you enjoyed DeLoreans lest you become shunned by other car aficionados. Which is probably why the hardcore of owners that carried the torch for the marque was a large mixture of eccentric people who like most owners now, just don't care what others think.



I guess there are some potential red flags, though. Gen X & Gen Y don't really have the wages and buying power of previous generations. They are also nowhere near as car-centric. Perhaps these point to possible limits on classic car values in the coming years? I've also noticed a market correction in cars like the air cooled 911s recently, while '90s cars such as the Supra continue to go through the roof. Is there danger the DeLorean's moment has already passed? Only time will tell I guess.

When it comes to classic car prices, there are two camps that drive values up: People who want the popular cars they saw when they were kids, and Investors that want to pump & dump marques. DeLoreans are in the former group, while Porsches & Supras tend to be in the latter. Especially with speculators whining that there are no good classics from the 70's, 80's, & 90's. So as soon as they saw cars like those, as well as RX-7s, they snatch them up, hype them, and dump the cars at inflated prices for a quick buck. But it is that first group that is always the stronger one.

As for Gen X & Gen Y/millennials not being as car-centric and not caring about the hobby, that's a load of bullshit that newspapers keep churning out. No, the younger generations do no have the same spending power, that is true. But they do indeed love cars. Just because we're not into all that "nifty-fifties" kitche doesn't mean we don't like cars. Sorry, but James Dean, Marilyn Monroe, hot rods, and drive-ins are simply not the end-all, be-all of car culture. But again, that goes back to the first group of enthusiasts that drive prices up. Just as the "Greatest Generation" saw the Duesenburgs and wanted those, so did the "Baby Boomers" want the Hot Rods and muscle cars. The popularity goes up, and then it falls back down as the generation dies off and the enthusiasm wanes. It'll eventually happen with the DeLorean as well to be sure, but probably not as bad. Even to a non-car person, the car just doesn't look that dated, and yes, has a certain amount of pop culture refresh backing it.

Here's a great article that really punches holes in the myths.
http://jalopnik.com/youth-car-culture-isnt-dead-this-washington-post-story-1728346138

[Mark D]

While I never intended to buy my DeLorean as an investment it does seem like I lucked out buying when the market was in a slump. I also follow Hagerty's online valuation tool to see how the prices are trending. Screen cap below.

http://dmctalk.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=48135&d=1483461689

[eight8toy]

I'd agree with the "Gen X & Gen Y/millennials not being as car-centric and not caring about the hobby" statement as being false. Being born in the same year as my newly purchased DeLorean is pretty awesome! And by the number of people my age I see pulling out their cell phones to take a picture of my car while I'm out driving would also prove that some of us still care! :D

Of course, I will say that I was just at the San Diego International Auto Show yesterday and was pretty unimpressed. I think just the sheer number of new car models being produced every year makes it hard these days to really be "car-centric".

Regardless, hopefully the magazine is wrong though since I just bought mine two months ago!

[Michael]

If the whole gen x thing is true about DeLoreans then those who grew up with the muscle cars are all but dead, yet you don't see those values going anywhere but up. Someone is buying them and it's not all +70yr olds with money.
I have a gut feeling the Delorean value are only going up (barring economic disaster) especially considering the uniqueness of the car and there wasn't a whole lot else from that time period worth collecting.

[Rich_NYS]

This thread inspired me to revisit my "related topic posts" from pre-October 2015, where there was much discussion about DeLorean price trends. It's fun to go back & see what we were saying just a year or two ago, here's one of mine:

http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?10721-Are-these-cars-ever-going-to-be-worth-anything&p=172153&viewfull=1#post172153

[DMCVegas]

If the whole gen x thing is true about DeLoreans then those who grew up with the muscle cars are all but dead, yet you don't see those values going anywhere but up. Someone is buying them and it's not all +70yr olds with money.
I have a gut feeling the Delorean value are only going up (barring economic disaster) especially considering the uniqueness of the car and there wasn't a whole lot else from that time period worth collecting.

What people consider to be the year rage for each generation always varies. But a commonly cited range for Baby Boomers is people born between 1946 and 1964, and the largest swath of birth rates are between '46 and around '57 or so. Couple that with the average life expectancy in the U.S. of 76 years for males, and we've really only got about another 10 years before the mortality rates result in a massive plummeting of that population. It'll be another 20 before the majority of boomers will have passed away. So I'm sure that we'll still see the prices continue to climb for about another 30 or so, but not at the exponential rate they have been going. Then they'll level off as the nostalgic buyers are gone and it's only investors left. Those will be the ones who simply stabilize prices, but may not actually be as passionate about the cars as those from days gone by.

Same thing will happen with the DeLorean as well, no doubt. Both in terms of increasing value and then the eventual plateau. But the thing also is to consider that cars like the DeLorean will come up on the scene and start to take away from the value of the old muscle cars by siphoning off buyers of the older classics. It's easy to be dismissive of cars from the 80's and 90's to say that there are no good classics available, but that's now and not later. Just as car people will always exist and have a passion for cars, so will they try and get in where they fit in. People will create classics through demand. THAT is how classics are created. Just look at the Buick Grand National and the old hand-built Porsches; They were pretty cheap, but then as people discovered them the prices just shot up. The next up and comers I see on the horizon for a buying frenzy will be Fox Bodies, F-Bodies, and C4 Vettes. All of which have been lamented in the past and had their desirability and prices driven down. But low prices means cheap entry into the car hobby. It'll be those cheap cars that people will flock to since they're all priced out of the old classics, and create new classics out of the cheap cars.

[Mark D]

*snip* The next up and comers I see on the horizon for a buying frenzy will be Fox Bodies, F-Bodies, and C4 Vettes.*snip*

My DeLorean has a winter storage buddy this year :-)
http://dmctalk.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=48156&d=1483543511

[SamHill]

The beginning of "The 80s" CNN series on Netflix, the recent AT&T commercial... we are starting to get some serious love. Before there were only isolated examples of higher values, now we at least see some solid examples of popular thought that the cars are undervalued.

Bernstein was chief among those who used to call upon the community to "stop putting the car down" as though that was a chief driver of value. People still recount the Delorean's weaker points, but in my opinion, general badmouthing was not and is not the reason they have been relatively cheap. The reason was very good supply of low cost examples. Always look to the cost and availability of a car in terrible condition to see where the general trend is going. It is undeniable that the prices of these project/parts cars are up, up, up domestic and abroad.

I also think the age demographic is overstated. It doesn't matter so much what age group the buyer comes from, just that the group the buyer comes from is relatively affluent. That trend has been on the downward slope until the past few years.

So when a car comes for sale on this site and others, there will always be that small group of people nitpicking this and that. Those people can opine from the sidelines but the car will sell for a good price anyway. As long as the economy holds together, all indications are that in 2017 we've crossed the rubicon on lower valuations.

[Michael]

After watching a tv show recently I need to modify my statement. With electric cars and collective technology increasing exponentially it's hard to say what will happen to values of any marque.
Could be in 10 or 15 years nobody will even want to drive a gasoline powered car.

[louielouie2000]

When it comes to classic car prices, there are two camps that drive values up: People who want the popular cars they saw when they were kids, and Investors that want to pump & dump marques. DeLoreans are in the former group, while Porsches & Supras tend to be in the latter. Especially with speculators whining that there are no good classics from the 70's, 80's, & 90's. So as soon as they saw cars like those, as well as RX-7s, they snatch them up, hype them, and dump the cars at inflated prices for a quick buck. But it is that first group that is always the stronger one.

While I agree that rising DeLorean values are probably primarily enthusiast driven, there's undoubtedly been a fair share of "pump and dump" happening, too. For quite a few years now DMC Florida has been advertising DeLoreans for over $50,000 without even bothering to replace their cars 35 year old tires, belts, hoses, etc. Once they started doing that, suddenly everyone selling a DeLorean started asking $50,000 for their cars, regardless of cosmetic or mechanical condition. To me, this is the epitome of pump & dump.


Always look to the cost and availability of a car in terrible condition to see where the general trend is going. It is undeniable that the prices of these project/parts cars are up, up, up domestic and abroad.

This was what finally convinced me that DeLorean values as a whole are rising at a pace that exceeds inflation. Just last week a somewhat shabby automatic DeLorean with no engine or transmission sold on eBay for $16,000. To me, that's the ultimate confirmation that these cars have entered a new era of collectability. Like you said, paying top dollar for exceptional condition cars of any make is expected. But when the wrecks are valuable, that's when things have changed.

While we're on the subject of inflation, I'm sure everyone remembers the old $25,000 rule. Price of DeLorean + any cosmetic and mechanical repairs it may need should add up to about $25,000. This was the gold standard DeLorean mantra when I was looking to buy my first DeLorean back in 2000. Adjusted for inflation, $25,000 in the year 2000 equates to about $35,000 in early 2017. There are still cars trading hands for less than that, but they will invariably need some work.


After watching a tv show recently I need to modify my statement. With electric cars and collective technology increasing exponentially it's hard to say what will happen to values of any marque. Could be in 10 or 15 years nobody will even want to drive a gasoline powered car.

This was what I was hinting at with my comments about future generations and collectability. Once cars are electric and fully autonomous, what will this do to the classic car hobby? I keep reading articles where kids born today will never learn how to drive because of this (much less learn to drive a manual transmission!). Automotive maintenance and restoration will no longer be ingrained in future drivers, either. There will always be gearheads and collectors, no doubt. But we're on the cusp of the biggest change in transportation since the interstate highway, and I don't think anyone can really predict how it will change the car hobby.

[Jonathan]

After watching a tv show recently I need to modify my statement. With electric cars and collective technology increasing exponentially it's hard to say what will happen to values of any marque.
Could be in 10 or 15 years nobody will even want to drive a gasoline powered car.

Well, it is 2017 now. Considering how many things 1987's The Running Man got right about reality TV and whatnot...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ceegnWSENQ

We only have to wait until 2032 for the "pussification" of society as predicted by 1993's Demolition Man...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSZoG8JVMss

Self-driving cars are just the beginning, lol.