General EFI made easy for the PRV... maybe?? [Archive] - DMCTalk Forum

Dmc10398

01-23-2017, 02:14 PM

The other day I went down to a Roadkill event down in Tucson and while walking around the vender area I come up with a great idea. Like a lot of us long term owners (ten years this Spring) I love my Delorean and have no plans to sell ever. But that damn K-jet gets on my nerves and just produces a whole host of problems to keeping the car running. So here's my hopefully great idea, now I've never really considered going with a carb on my Delorean. But what if I took the carburetor intake and installed a Fitech EFI/carb replacer on top of that. If they replace carbs on other classics cars why won't it work with the Delorean, assuming i could get the carb intake...

Ideas??

Bitsyncmaster

01-23-2017, 02:32 PM

It would probably be easier to use a throttle body injector as far as software not having to do any ignition timing. Would kind of work like the K=jet. You would need to select a throttle body sized for our engine.

Don't know if that would buy you anything, the K-jet on my car never seems to cause me any problems.

Dmc10398

01-23-2017, 02:40 PM

I guess I don't fully understand everything that goes into the k-jet system/EFI. Currently my car runs just fine But I'm hopeful someday I can do custom mapping or make easy adjustments like I can on my EFI motorcycles.

But Please don't get me wrong I love my Delorean just the way she is, not trying to turn it into a race car or anything. But a modern EFI set up would be great, easy to find parts for, check codes, tuning etc etc :-)

Some guy

01-23-2017, 02:46 PM

I went through problems with mine also.

Make sure it is in "tune" I paid a local garage to make it smog legal.

I installed a switch across my cold start value. I used the relay terminal in the fuse compartment. Then put the switch by my shiftier.

When the car will not start, i just flip the switch and "dump in the fuel'. It runs rough for a second, but it works for me.

I have all new check values and a new accumulator. Still had issues. This has given me back some confidence in the K jet.

Chris4099

01-23-2017, 02:56 PM

I thought about those conversion kits a few years back too. But never really saw any in a two barrel config, always 4 for the large V8s. I was also worried about going a step back to throttle body injection too. Ultimately my K-Jet is working just fine and has been pretty trouble free for the last 13 years, so I never gave it any serious thought. But if somebody does go through the paces and can confirm with a dyno that the performance increases, I would be really interested!

David T

01-23-2017, 02:57 PM

Dmc10398

01-23-2017, 03:08 PM

David T

01-23-2017, 03:44 PM

Well I would normally totally agree with you David but my fear is as time goes by the k-jet parts are going to get harder and harder to come by and far more expensive. Thankfully it seem like the DMC venders are working on a EFI kit and Josh (DPI) apparently has one working already. Which is probably going to be the safest bet, but god knows how much the venders are to want to change things over.

I hear you but it will always cost a whole lot more to change the whole fuel system than to get even an expensive part. The vendors will have to find sources to repair, rebuild or replace the parts to keep the fleet running. If you don't let the car sit with old fuel for years, the K-Jet system will probably be fine. That seems to be the worst thing you can do to it. Hose kits are available, new fuel pumps are too, and many parts cross over from other makes so for the foreseeable future the fuel system should be serviceable.

Christian Dietrich

01-23-2017, 05:49 PM

Citizen

01-23-2017, 07:14 PM

In the near 13 years of ownership, the only issue's i have ever found with K jet is bad fuel, long term sitting and etc... Seems the more you drive the less worries you have! I would love a EFI system but i cant see dropping the K Jet.

+1

Only problem I've ever had with my fuel system is when my (old style) FP disintegrated inside the fuel tank. I then replaced it with DMCH's combo unit (after a good cleaning). No problem since (that was a couple years ago when they first came out, I think).

Thomas

...

Christian Dietrich

01-23-2017, 07:37 PM

+1

Only problem I've ever had with my fuel system is when my (old style) FP disintegrated inside the fuel tank. I then replaced it with DMCH's combo unit (after a good cleaning). No problem since (that was a couple years ago when they first came out, I think).

Thomas

...
Oh I agree! It all starts in the tank and changing to the new combo is far better than the original style and I think even back in 1981 they could have had a better system. I have the combo unit also but only had it for a year so far and love it!

Sent from my SM-N920P using Tapatalk

dn010

01-24-2017, 11:16 AM

Check the EFI section of the forum, you might get some ideas from what others have already successfully done.

louielouie2000

01-24-2017, 02:03 PM

Thankfully it seem like the DMC venders are working on a EFI kit. Which is probably going to be the safest bet, but god knows how much the venders are to want to change things over.

I've never heard this before. I've only heard about DMC-Texas sourcing a modern EFI engine for their upcoming replica cars, which can also be installed in vintage DeLoreans.

Yes, DPI does offer EFI conversion:

http://www.deloreanindustries.com/dpi-efi/

dn010

01-24-2017, 02:04 PM

Agreed, I only know of DPI working with EFI.

opethmike

01-24-2017, 07:52 PM

For all of the time and money it can cost to modify the fuel injection system, it is going to be better to just do what is necessary to get the stock K-jet system working as it should. If you ever need to order parts or service, the D vendors won't know what to do.

For pete's sake, man. If someone has skill enough to install an EFI system on their DeLorean, they will have skill enough to diagnose the new fuel system. Many of us on this very forum have done that same thing.

DMCVegas

01-25-2017, 01:20 PM

For pete's sake, man. If someone has skill enough to install an EFI system on their DeLorean, they will have skill enough to diagnose the new fuel system. Many of us on this very forum have done that same thing.

Yes, but you tell them that, and you'll be branded as a "purist" for simply defending the functionality of K-Jetronic.

In truth, I couldn't agree with you more. K-Jetronic is simple, in as it is already calibrated for the stock engine. Your distributor, warm up regulator, injector sizes, etc. are all pre-configured to work with your engine. All you need to do is test them with a tool to verify they're working within spec, and once done you just set the Air/Fuel Ratio. Something that can be done with a exhaust gas analyzer and a screwdriver. A single screw. Just turn it until your AFR # is correct, and you're done. The rest of the entire system is automatically calibrated. There is no shame in taking your car to a mechanic, so I don't look down on anyone who has someone else work on their car. But if you are unable to diagnose and repair a stock K-Jetronic system by yourself where the tolerances and instructions are provided for you already, EFI is going to be out of your league. Even if you had a bolt-on EFI kit that required no calibration, it will at some point in the future require maintenance and troubleshooting as all cars do. What then?

Personally, I have no qualms at all with EFI. Not a single one. Just as I also have no qualms against someone converting an engine to carburetion. You just need to do what makes you happy. So if tinkering around with EFI makes you happy, or switching to a carb makes you happy, I say you should go for it. Because your reason for doing so is for personal satisfaction. However, if you're looking at another fuel delivery system simply as a solution to your problems, you're gonna be headed for more frustration than you have now.

Bitsyncmaster

01-25-2017, 01:47 PM

DMCVegas

01-25-2017, 03:26 PM

Actually if your lambda is working, an exhaust gas analyzer would just show you where the mixture is holding (14.7 AFR). So you really need to set the dwell so your centered in the lambda range. That keeps the AFR correct as things change the mixture like altitude and temperature changes.

Now if your running without the lambda (carb or open loop) then the exhaust gas analyzer is the best tool for setting the mixture.

That is technically correct...to a point. Which is why disconnecting the O2 sensor to force the LAMBDA system into open loop is the 3rd step you are supposed to perform before adjusting the AFR by way of the CO screw as per the Workshop Manual.

That way when you set the AFR it will be dead-center within the LAMBDA feedback loop spectrum of lean/rich. Once complete you plug the oxygen sensor back in to allow LAMBDA to reactivate & perform the fine-tuning adjustments as needed on the fly while driving. Otherwise the system is fighting you to where you tune it with a bias to one side. That affects on-the-fly adjustments where your engine runs terribly with too rich or too lean conditions during it's warm-up cycles, massive elevation changes, or WOT conditions.

This is why I prefer the Workshop Manual's instructions versus just always going by dwell alone. It demands establishing baselines across the board on component functionality & combustion chamber conditions to eliminate as many variables as possible, if not all. The duty cycle of the LAMBDA unit can vary during operation to achieve optimal emissions. So if you're going by dwell alone, you can end up fighting the engine which is counterproductive. Dwell is important to tell you that the engine is running properly, but you have to keep in mind that K-Jetronic is also a modular system. It was meant as a replacement for carbs, and still relied upon kicker solenoids and screws to set idle speeds until CIS was introduced. Then it had LAMBDA as an emission control device to fine-tune tailpipe emissions by independently manipulating the AFR on it's own. That's why you set the baselines, and THEN let the add-on devices (WUR, LAMBDA, etc.) control things as they see fit, instead of basing measurements off of their tampering. That's why the Workshop Manual says to set the 950± RPM with a 2000 RPM test and cleaning of probes, a set coolant temperature, and to insure Duty Cycle is @ 50% when disconnected before CO/AFR adjustments, And then no more than a 5% deviation from mean between 45%-55% with the LAMBDA's operation thereafter to ensure sure proper functionality. But it's all about achieving those baselines first.

K-Jetronic is great because when you install the correct, functioning parts, it only requires a single screw to turn for tuning. Yes, you need a couple of tools, but most you should already have, and it's still just a single screw. The trade-off however is that it does not suffer tampering nor accept compromise when tuning. Precision isn't hard, but it's also something that most mechanics with a "good enough" attitude can have a difficult time coming to terms with.

dn010

01-25-2017, 03:41 PM

Hmm. All I do is tell MS I want 14.7 and close my laptop. :smile:

That is technically correct...to a point. Which is why disconnecting the O2 sensor to force the LAMBDA system into open loop is the 3rd step you are supposed to perform before adjusting the AFR by way of the CO screw as per the Workshop Manual.

That way when you set the AFR it will be dead-center within the LAMBDA feedback loop spectrum of lean/rich. Once complete you plug the oxygen sensor back in to allow LAMBDA to reactivate & perform the fine-tuning adjustments as needed on the fly while driving. Otherwise the system is fighting you to where you tune it with a bias to one side. That affects on-the-fly adjustments where your engine runs terribly with too rich or too lean conditions during it's warm-up cycles, massive elevation changes, or WOT conditions.

This is why I prefer the Workshop Manual's instructions versus just always going by dwell alone. It demands establishing baselines across the board on component functionality & combustion chamber conditions to eliminate as many variables as possible, if not all. The duty cycle of the LAMBDA unit can vary during operation to achieve optimal emissions. So if you're going by dwell alone, you can end up fighting the engine which is counterproductive. Dwell is important to tell you that the engine is running properly, but you have to keep in mind that K-Jetronic is also a modular system. It was meant as a replacement for carbs, and still relied upon kicker solenoids and screws to set idle speeds until CIS was introduced. Then it had LAMBDA as an emission control device to fine-tune tailpipe emissions by independently manipulating the AFR on it's own. That's why you set the baselines, and THEN let the add-on devices (WUR, LAMBDA, etc.) control things as they see fit, instead of basing measurements off of their tampering. That's why the Workshop Manual says to set the 950± RPM with a 2000 RPM test and cleaning of probes, a set coolant temperature, and to insure Duty Cycle is @ 50% when disconnected before CO/AFR adjustments, And then no more than a 5% deviation from mean between 45%-55% with the LAMBDA's operation thereafter to ensure sure proper functionality. But it's all about achieving those baselines first.

K-Jetronic is great because when you install the correct, functioning parts, it only requires a single screw to turn for tuning. Yes, you need a couple of tools, but most you should already have, and it's still just a single screw. The trade-off however is that it does not suffer tampering nor accept compromise when tuning. Precision isn't hard, but it's also something that most mechanics with a "good enough" attitude can have a difficult time coming to terms with.

DMCVegas

01-25-2017, 03:58 PM

Hmm. All I do is tell MS I want 14.7 and close my laptop. :smile:

But how much other work went into de-installation, fabrication, installation, and calibration for that system to even be up and running before you got to that point?

dn010

01-25-2017, 04:11 PM

But how much other work went into de-installation, fabrication, installation, and calibration for that system to even be up and running before you got to that point?

You said "correct, functioning parts" so I was just going off that.

David T

01-25-2017, 04:38 PM

Maintaining and troubleshooting a motor with an EFI system requires a through knowledge of how the system operates and the documentation on that system in particular. The person who installed it would have that knowledge. Not the next owner and usually not a Delorean service center. It gets down to simple things such as replacement air and fuel filters. Once set you should not need to tweak or adjust ANY settings on a K-Jet or an EFI system so simplicity is not a reason to convert to EFI, besides an EFI system is more complicated than K-Jet. As good as an EFI conversion can be the single biggest determining factor is going to be how well the install is done. If you want to experiment then go for it. I can't think of any good reason to convert except for that purpose. It can't be cheaper than to fix up a broken K-Jet system no matter how bad it is. While some may call me a "purist" I agree an owner can do whatever he chooses to his car. Just be honest and do it for the right reasons. A well functioning K-Jet system can work as well, if not better, than an EFI system. It was tuned specifically for the Delorean PRV. While it is true it can be harder to adjust, once set it works very reliably. Even an EFI system can have problems, especially if you get old, stale, or bad gas. Gee, that can happen to the K-Jet too! If you want cheap put a carburetor on if you think the K-Jet is that bad that it has to be ripped off.

opethmike

01-25-2017, 05:40 PM

It can't be cheaper than to fix up a broken K-Jet system no matter how bad it is. While some may call me a "purist" I agree an owner can do whatever he chooses to his car. Just be honest and do it for the right reasons. A well functioning K-Jet system can work as well, if not better, than an EFI system. It was tuned specifically for the Delorean PRV. While it is true it can be harder to adjust, once set it works very reliably. Even an EFI system can have problems, especially if you get old, stale, or bad gas. Gee, that can happen to the K-Jet too! If you want cheap put a carburetor on if you think the K-Jet is that bad that it has to be ripped off.

"It can't be cheaper than to fix up a broken K-Jet system no matter how bad it is"

This is plain and simply not true.

"Just be honest and do it for the right reasons."

Who made you the gate-keeper of "right reasons?" What are those 'right reasons'? Oh yeah, that's right, you're a DeLorean Guru.

"A well functioning K-Jet system can work as well, if not better, than an EFI system."

This is also plain and simply not true.

opethmike

01-25-2017, 05:41 PM

But how much other work went into de-installation, fabrication, installation, and calibration for that system to even be up and running before you got to that point?

It takes about a weekend. The complexity is highly over-stated.

DMCVegas

01-25-2017, 07:21 PM

It takes about a weekend. The complexity is highly over-stated.

Do you have any links or starting points over in the EFI section then on how to get started? Just like with carbs, I've always stated that what we need is a guide on how to do all of this. I doubt that we'll have a K-Jetronic shortage anytime soon, but it would be great to have this kind of backup. Especially if it could be broken down into a 2.8 & 3.0 DIS guide for people dropping Premier engines in since we are starting to see fewer PRVs available. Such a guide would be great for people with block rot that may only have a 3.0 replacement available from their local junkyard. If we are going to have some sort of modification like this, the best thing would be to document it in order to standardize it for the community.

I've no doubt that the complexity itself is overstated given what I've seen with other kits. But a guide would go a long way with helping others.

David T

01-25-2017, 07:57 PM

Do you have any links or starting points over in the EFI section then on how to get started? Just like with carbs, I've always stated that what we need is a guide on how to do all of this. I doubt that we'll have a K-Jetronic shortage anytime soon, but it would be great to have this kind of backup. Especially if it could be broken down into a 2.8 & 3.0 DIS guide for people dropping Premier engines in since we are starting to see fewer PRVs available. Such a guide would be great for people with block rot that may only have a 3.0 replacement available from their local junkyard. If we are going to have some sort of modification like this, the best thing would be to document it in order to standardize it for the community.

I've no doubt that the complexity itself is overstated given what I've seen with other kits. But a guide would go a long way with helping others.

I agree. Some kind of standardization would be very helpful. The actual mechanics of the installation are not all that bad. The big job is the creation of the tables to get it to work under all operating conditions. The good news is, when it gets done, it can be good for everyone and only has to be done once. It is so much work big automotive manufacturers have whole departments devoted to getting it right. It is a large undertaking for 1 individual.

Spittybug

01-25-2017, 10:45 PM

:popcorn::popcorn::popcorn:

I'm always amused when people argue over things like EFI, Carbs and K-Jet. Especially the arguments that come from those who have never experienced, never mind installed one of the others.

As an early adopter of EFI and having had several cars with various kinds of carbs, (Zenith Strom, Weber, Summit Union....) I can share the following observations without even having the lofty title of guru.

If you don' know the basics of engines, you have NO business changing anything. If your idea of fixing the car is taking it to DMC and DMC only, end of discussion.
Once you have educated yourself on the theory, the equipment, the pros and the cons and think you are ready, form an implementation plan.
Understand your car's OTHER systems that will be impacted by a change. Cooling (manifold cooling, temp sensor locations, etc), electrical (loads, commonality with K-Jet components, wiring in general), fuel delivery (pump, pressure, lines), air (pathway, exhaust), physical sizes of things for mounting, etc........
DO IT.

K-Jet relies on air plates, plungers, fuel pressure accumulators, rubber diaphragms, frequency valves, electronic control boxes and all kinds of other interconnected bits and bobs. It's RUBE GOLDBERG. Dismantling and spreading out all of the functions of a carb doesn't make it better. Doesn't mean it doesn't or can't work, but face it, it was the first steps from carburetion to fuel injection.

Carburation is tried and true but is again largely mechanical in nature, subject to limitations of jet sizes, acceleration pumps, floats, etc... It has been improved upon.

EFI is a modern solution that allows for infinite tweaking and tuning if that is what you wish to do. 1 brain (less than K-jet), standard issue electro mechanical injectors, tried and true idle control valves and NO OTHER MOVING PARTS to wear out or go out of spec. All choices use some kind of throttle plate, so I don't count that. The O2 sensor, like K-jet, along with temp sensor, manifold pressure sensor (in box) and the incoming air sensor are all simple. Only the throttle position sensor can be a bit of a challenge to install on the stock Delorean throttle body.

The challenge/time consumer of EFI after the learning curve of actually LEARNING IT, is integrating it into our cars. A carb bolts on nice and easy once you have a properly sized manifold. Easy! It therefore MUST be better right? K-Jet came with the car, so that MUST be the best thing for it.... except EFI as it exists today didn't exist.... It's all about what your goals are. I didn't do mine to simply find an easy route. I did it to LEARN, to enjoy the benefits of modern technology and to keep advancing the capabilities. It wasn't easy for the first few of us to learn what does and does not work well when integrating into a Delorean. If I were to convert another car tomorrow I could do it in a weekend.

So for those of you that have no first hand knowledge of what you speak and only opine on the theoretical or academic, why not defer to those that have blazed the trail to the future?

David T

01-26-2017, 12:13 PM

While I have done some "conversions" I never did one on a Delorean and most of my work on "conversions" was to finish other people's work and get it to run correctly because the original person who started it didn't get it finished or get it done right. It is an ambitious project because of the steep learning curve. The actual mechanical work is not nearly as great as the programming necessary to make it work under all operating conditions. Most shops won't even attempt it, they do the mechanical work, get it to run as best they can, and then send it to a tuner to tweak it and get it to run right. Can cost a LOT of money, especially if you dyno it to tune it. While EFI is the way of the future it does not mean everyone with a Delorean must do it. Getting the K-Jet system to work well and keeping it working well is still the best option for most. LED's are the future too but I don't say everyone should rip out all of their bulbs and replace them with LED's. Each owner has to decide what they want to do and what they want to spend. K-Jet is still a viable option (and in most cases the cheapest option). While the biggest virtue of EFI is the ability to tune it easily (and on the fly), once done it never really needs to be done again.

DMCVegas

01-26-2017, 12:56 PM

I'm always amused when people argue over things like EFI, Carbs and K-Jet. Especially the arguments that come from those who have never experienced, never mind installed one of the others.

If I've said it once, I've said it a thousand times, and I will continue to say it until the day I die: More than once I have changed my opinion on something because someone was able to present me with facts that convinced me otherwise. And I am starting to turn my opinion here on EFI as more of a feasable alternative rather than a luxury mod. But let us talk about a couple of things here.

If you don' know the basics of engines, you have NO business changing anything. If your idea of fixing the car is taking it to DMC and DMC only, end of discussion.
Once you have educated yourself on the theory, the equipment, the pros and the cons and think you are ready, form an implementation plan.
Understand your car's OTHER systems that will be impacted by a change. Cooling (manifold cooling, temp sensor locations, etc), electrical (loads, commonality with K-Jet components, wiring in general), fuel delivery (pump, pressure, lines), air (pathway, exhaust), physical sizes of things for mounting, etc........
DO IT.

Great points I totally agree with. The biggest problems with my own DeLorean over the years haven't been engineering shortcomings, but rather sub-par mechanical work. Which leads me to my biggest concern here...

Only the throttle position sensor can be a bit of a challenge to install on the stock Delorean throttle body.

And this:

So for those of you that have no first hand knowledge of what you speak and only opine on the theoretical or academic, why not defer to those that have blazed the trail to the future?

There are to be challenges to be certain, absolutely yes. Looking at the price of K-Jetronic parts as someone who is pulling a car out of long-term storage, EFI sure as hell is looking better and better to me. But that again is for someone who is looking at starting from scratch. If someone already has K-Jetronic working fine and just needs troubleshooting, that's a different story. But I digress. I'm getting off topic.

I'll just come out and say it: It is great that we have the support of the EFI group, but what I'd really prefer to see is a community-accepted standard for an EFI conversion. For the exact same reasons that I wanted it for carburetor conversions:

No individual, or group of individuals should hold control over knowlege so as to lock anyone out.
A standardized, commonly accepted process gives both legitimacy, as well as easy repairability for future work.
I don't want to see someone go and start off with a project that they never finish because they, nor especially the next owner.

I want to avoid all of these pitfalls because I want all owners to always be able to enjoy their cars by having a positive experience. If that means switching over to EFI, then so be it. More importantly I want it to mean that they can easily start, finish, and maintain such a project for the foreseeable future without worry. There is noting worse than an abandoned project car in the garage that brings the owner nothing but frustration, and that is paramount to being avoided. With a standardized procedure, especially for those "tricky" things you have to deal with, those can be avoided.

But I also don't want someone to feel that the only solution to have a running DeLorean is to dump K-Jetronic, or that an immediate switch is going to resolve all of their problems.

David T

01-26-2017, 01:13 PM

If I've said it once, I've said it a thousand times, and I will continue to say it until the day I die: More than once I have changed my opinion on something because someone was able to present me with facts that convinced me otherwise. And I am starting to turn my opinion here on EFI as more of a feasable alternative rather than a luxury mod. But let us talk about a couple of things here.

No individual, or group of individuals should hold control over knowlege so as to lock anyone out.
A standardized, commonly accepted process gives both legitimacy, as well as easy repairability for future work.
I don't want to see someone go and start off with a project that they never finish because they, nor especially the next owner.

I want to avoid all of these pitfalls because I want all owners to always be able to enjoy their cars by having a positive experience. If that means switching over to EFI, then so be it. More importantly I want it to mean that they can easily start, finish, and maintain such a project for the foreseeable future without worry. There is noting worse than an abandoned project car in the garage that brings the owner nothing but frustration, and that is paramount to being avoided. With a standardized procedure, especially for those "tricky" things you have to deal with, those can be avoided.

But I also don't want someone to feel that the only solution to have a running DeLorean is to dump K-Jetronic, or that an immediate switch is going to resolve all of their problems.

When "converting" to EFI this is the single biggest problem. Whoever invests a LOT of time and effort in the programing generally won't share it and for good reason. That precludes any "standardization" and makes each install that much harder and more custom.

Spittybug

01-27-2017, 10:15 AM

I'm throwing the red bull shit flag on the field guys.

Read through the EFI sections of this board and see the sharing of the information, the discussions on converting a stock system, the calling for sharing of fuel and spark tables and other examples of "knowledge control". Look at the dates. The thanklessness of the task ultimately causes its demise.

Just read and see the amount of sharing that is going on before making claims of locking anyone out. Hell, at one point I was willing to make kits (and actually converted 2 other member's cars) but there wasn't enough interest by others.

FYI, I have spent $0 on a tuner or a dyno. My tables are pretty darn good and my car runs better than it did on a fully functional K-Jet system. Could it be even better? You bet. I could optimize the acceleration enhancement and fine tune the warm up parameters. The local tuner said he could do it for $450 if I wanted, FYI. He concurs with the general theme here; the problem is that people don't learn what they are getting into, don't have peripherals that are in good shape, are too lazy to put in the effort and then expect miracles out of him. He therefore usually charges $750 for the same service because he knows he's going to have to do a bunch of BS that he shouldn't have to........

SamHill

01-27-2017, 01:10 PM

I'll just come out and say it: It is great that we have the support of the EFI group, but what I'd really prefer to see is a community-accepted standard for an EFI conversion. For the exact same reasons that I wanted it for carburetor conversions....

I agree and wish there was a general expansive book to follow. Both ways have undergone some further development from the starting point, I'm sure. If you're not planning on making a business out of it, I don't understand why one wouldn't share with the class, Spicoli.

Bitsyncmaster

01-27-2017, 01:44 PM

If you're not planning on making a business out of it, I don't understand why one wouldn't share with the class, Spicoli.

+1
I think most owners are happy to share what they have learned.

DMCVegas

01-27-2017, 03:05 PM

the problem is that people don't learn what they are getting into, don't have peripherals that are in good shape, are too lazy to put in the effort and then expect miracles out of him.

Truth be told, that's not merely a problem with people who convert to EFI. That's an issue, if not an outright concern, with any consumer product out there. And I understand that. If someone wants to buy something, they just expect it to work right away. IF that kind of "plug & play" ability is something that isn't possible, especially with an EFI conversion that has to be tuned, then there needs to be a simple as possible process for that to occur. Such as the number of aftermarket V8 EFI conversion kits which will self-tune without the need for a laptop. Or you simply need to present to the prospect that the conversion isn't a good match for them.

It's just like the old story an (alleged) former GM engineer told me: The electric starter wasn't some sort of humanitarian invention spurned by injuries of death. Cars were hard to start and way too complicated for the average person. So when it comes to sales, there are more dumb people with money they're willing to part with than there are smart people who have money they're willing to part with. A simple button instead of a crank was able to widen the appeal of the product to the masses.

So that convenience aspect is a big part of it. As is the concern about "locking people out". Now please understand that no one is accusing anyone in the EFI conversion realm of such a thing. Not in the least. But there have been echos of that type of concern in the past from other projects, and in particular carburetion is a prime example of that. So there is going to be a bit of skepticism to say the least because people don't want to go down that same path. The best way to overcome all of that is to get this kind of project accepted as a standard type of modification within the community.

What we need is a guide. The first step of which is to create a how-to on the physical installation of an EFI Conversion. This will comprise the following:

Tools required.
Parts and sensors required, including part numbers
Step by Step Instructions for the physical installation.

Once that is complete, we need said installation guide to then be broken down into 4 different installation types:

Stock 2.8L PRV Cylinder Heads w/K-Jetronic Manifold. -Odd Fire
Sock 3.0L Cylinder Heads & Manifold w/Ignition Distributor. -Even Fire
Stock 3.0L Heads & Engine w/Distributorless/Waste Spark Ignition. -Even Fire
Hybrid 2.8L PRV w/3.0L Cylinder heads w/Ignition Distributor. -Odd Fire

The second step is going to be the guide on how to tune the system. We can start with some fuel maps, and that's a great starting point. From there would be some great instructions on how to tune the system on your own to get it running optimally.

The biggest hurdle to overcome though is that it's not CARB certified. So such a conversion may still be of a concern to some of us who are on the west coast. Nevada still has far more strict emissions testing than California does. So one of the big concerns here for some would be emissions testing to ensure that the EFI conversion still runs clean. But again, that is the kind of information that many people need to have. If that can be put together and organized, then yes, you've got a good shot at widening the appeal of EFI conversions.

Delorean Industries

01-27-2017, 03:23 PM

Drive Stainless

01-27-2017, 03:28 PM

Sharing the fuel table/warmup/acceleration/ignition table are only useful if:

everyone agrees to use the same injectors
everyone agrees to connect the MAP sensor to the same place
everyone agrees whether to use a TPS, and if so, to the same extent
everyone agrees on where to locate the intake air temp sensor
everyone agrees to use the same or similar throttle body
everyone agrees to use the same grade of gasoline
everyone agrees to use a similar edition of Megasquirt having the same fuel/spark table resolution
everyone agrees to the extent that the tune should be focused on performance vs fuel economy

Any variation in the above, and there will be variation in one or more of the configurable parameters. There are likely many more points that I'm forgetting.

DMCVegas

01-27-2017, 03:33 PM

David T

01-27-2017, 04:57 PM

"The EPA will no longer be of any concern to us. I have just received word the president has dissolved the agency permanently. The last remnants of the climate concerned Republic have been swept away. "

Not in La La Land. I hear California wants to secede from the Union. Point is, any compliance issues are a State thing. Each owner must check with the Motor Vehicle agency in the State they live in and learn what the rules are. In most States, once the car is old enough, you can do what you want. Some States have varying rules as to how it is registered, how many miles you do etc. You would not want to modify the car and after spending all that money find out you can't pass inspection.

Delorean Industries

01-27-2017, 05:30 PM

It was a Star Wars reference that i thought would be fitting...

DMCVegas

01-27-2017, 06:50 PM

Not in La La Land. I hear California wants to secede from the Union. Point is, any compliance issues are a State thing. Each owner must check with the Motor Vehicle agency in the State they live in and learn what the rules are. In most States, once the car is old enough, you can do what you want. Some States have varying rules as to how it is registered, how many miles you do etc. You would not want to modify the car and after spending all that money find out you can't pass inspection.

Absolutely state rules will vary. Such as the example I gave of where California is no longer the most stringent of states when it comes to classic vehicles. Without getting political here, emissions rules have typically been that if CARB (California Air Resources Board) approves a vehicle or system, then the EPA will accept such certifications as Federal approval. Otherwise you have separate Federal regulations which can be applied to different classes of vehicles, or ones with drivetrain configurations not certified for operation out in the Golden State. Such vehicles are not allowed entry into California save for a 2 week visitation limit. So regardless of future policies or political schisms, California already has rules which supersede that of the Federal government on vehicle emissions.

Now while the 1970's was a massive transitional period of tightening fuel economy and emissions regulations which saw such variations in drivetrain configurations based upon their certifications, that isn't likely to ever happen again. Not only are those emissions programs with automakers still in progress for future vehicles, most of the cars we purchase are already part of global platforms. As such they are sold concurrently in other countries which can have stricter emissions, so it's cheaper to just maintain global compliance. Plus cleaner vehicles fit better with consumer tastes. So don't think that next year's cars are all gonna be installed without catalytic converters, or will roll coal right out of the factory.

Getting back on track to be DeLorean-specific, the future is also something you need to think about when it comes to such mods. Be it swapping a fuel delivery system, or an entire engine outright. Even once we overcome any worries about future support, we then have to consider worries about being 50-state compliant. You may not live in a state, or even a county right now that requires you to undergo emissions testing. But if you ever do move to an area where such testing is required, or you sell your car and it goes without you, that is a factor to consider.

mluder

01-27-2017, 07:20 PM

It was a Star Wars reference that i thought would be fitting...

I caught it... But then I would.
Kudos to Josh! He wins eleventy-million internet points today.

Cheers
Steven

Josh

01-29-2017, 01:20 AM

That is a damn good point, and exactly why we need to have standardized installation guide that defines specifically what parts MUST be used, and where they must be installed at.

Sounds like you have a lot of work to do then, better get to it!

This is never going to happen. Every car is different, so tunes will be different. Every owner is different, so a universal EFI system like megasquirt will be installed differently on each car. If you spend some time reading the manual and asking questions EFI is not out of the capabilities of any hobbyist mechanic.

opethmike

03-16-2017, 07:35 PM

The crap attitudes from the people in this thread that haven't actually done EFI work is why I stopped talking EFI.

Drive Stainless

03-16-2017, 07:57 PM

Are any of you using programmable ignition? You can generate a spark advance table based on using 93 octane exclusively, for example. You can pick up a noticeable amount of power this way.

FABombjoy

03-16-2017, 10:29 PM

Are any of you using programmable ignition? You can generate a spark advance table based on using 93 octane exclusively, for example. You can pick up a noticeable amount of power this way.
I'm going to be, does that count? Will incorporate a knock sensor in case things get a little too spicy.

My setup will use Megasquirt to trigger an MSD 6AL box. Unconventional, but I already have the MSD mounted and ignition was never an issue even with an oil-fouled intake charge.

Josh

03-17-2017, 12:38 PM

I'm going to be, does that count? Will incorporate a knock sensor in case things get a little too spicy.

My setup will use Megasquirt to trigger an MSD 6AL box. Unconventional, but I already have the MSD mounted and ignition was never an issue even with an oil-fouled intake charge.

The 6AL will support odd fire I assume? Interesting.
I have nothing but good things to say about Ford EDIS, but it is a no-go with odd fire.

FABombjoy

03-17-2017, 02:52 PM

The 6AL does support odd-fire. Combined with a MAP sensor it worked perfectly to retard ignition based on boost.

To centralize tuning, I will switch the 6AL back to points mode and use Megasquirt to build the ignition tables. This will also allow me to use knock feedback for ignition control. Then I can eliminate (resell!) the MSD MAP sensor and Tach Adapter boxes too. In points mode I would expect that you can use just about any single-coil ignition driver that you want.

I would love to do a COP setup using the MS3X, but I've already nailed down this years goalposts. Some day I'd like to move to a 3.0 anyway which would nullify half of the work required to get 2.8 odd-fire COP functioning.