Stage 1 - Worth it?

[Redsquall]

Hey,
So I'm considering the Stage 1 (poor man's stage 2).
My current exhaust seems fine, would upgrade mostly for the sound and added slight amount of power.
How would you describe the sound difference? Deeper or just louder?
Can you even feel the power different at all?
Any downsides?
Thanks

[David T]

Hey,
So I'm considering the Stage 1 (poor man's stage 2).
My current exhaust seems fine, would upgrade mostly for the sound and added slight amount of power.
How would you describe the sound difference? Deeper or just louder?
Can you even feel the power different at all?
Any downsides?
Thanks

Definite noticeable power difference and prep for the cams which would make a bigger difference. Slightly louder and deeper. Well worth the expense.

[SKnight]

The sound of a Stage 1 is deeper and a little louder, if you go to YouTube and search "DeLorean stage 1" you'll find several videos that will show you what they sound like. In my opinion, it makes the car sound more like sports car should. When I got mine I didn't think the power difference would be as noticeable as it was. There's a long steep hill near my house that I drive up pretty often, with the stock exhaust the car would have to downshift (I have an automatic) to stay around 45. With the Stage 1 it will do 50-55 up that hill without downshifting at all. I believe I was told the Stage 1 uncorks around 20 HP from the engine, someone correct me if I'm wrong though. Another bonus is that your fuel economy will improve a little. It's well worth the investment!

[Riley88]

If your car is mechanically sound, in wouldn't hesitate install it you wont regret it. I was in the same boat, pulled the trigger and am glad I did. Although lol my car is another story atm

[Christian Dietrich]

Well for my car I have the DPI Spec 1 exhaust and what i love about that exhaust over the DMC unit, which is a good system is the build. They use a 2 bolt exhaust flange instead of the common 3 bolt and i fix a few D's installing new gaskets for the previous one blowing out. It happens over time and various with the car from what I seen anyway. Other than that its a good system. The DPI unit i have is cat-less and quite loud but doesn't drone to bad. I hardly notice it. You will feel a difference in pick up especially if you have the Cold Air Intake. I do wanna get cams next down the road but what i did runs strong and im happy. I also have the larger air box from Hervey with a K&N filter and a throttle body spacer. Little bit more pull in mid to top end! Its worth what ever system you get like the DMC, DPI or the Euro Spec. Oh and yes, its about a 20 hp. And the car pulls so much better and gas mileage goes up too! https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170127/b38a0fd717a4384642a0dc90345ec4bf.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170127/62f91e5585361cdaa81953eacd7e8bae.jpg

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[Chris Burns]

DMC Stage 1 exhaust video.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0UwOaZVdpdM



Recent video I made of the DPI Spec 1 exhaust with cat delete test pipes.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iybJx2Ln7ec



Whatever exhaust you decide on PLEASE GET IT CERAMIC COATED!! It will look better and last longer, plus it keeps the heat down a bit.

[Lwanmtr]

Just curious....is stage 1 just replacing the exhaust? or is there more to it? Been considering if its something i want to do.

[Chris Burns]

Stage 1 and the Spec 1 is basically just a stainless exhaust with headers the let's the engine breathe a bit and adds roughly 20 more hp.

[Lwanmtr]

Thanks. wasnt sure if heads needed bored or anything extensive like that.

[SKnight]

It also replaces the hot air intake with a cold air one.

[David T]

Thanks. wasnt sure if heads needed bored or anything extensive like that.

You are confusing it (Stage I) with what they call Stage II. That is the exhaust work AND head work consisting primarily of different cams.

[Lwanmtr]

Yeah, thats what I thought...wanted to be sure. I knew the stage-2 needed all that work...just didnt know if there was any for the stage-1. Thanks

Stage-1 looks like something I could do myself then (providing the bolts come undone properly).

[Gruffalo]

How do the spec 1 and the stage 1 compare to the system from Special T Auto? Definitely easier on the wallet.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170128/9e42871923607fc0969777c78b3a9568.png


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[sdg3205]

An owner in the PNDC up here found Hervey's exhaust was too loud.

[Andrew]

I've heard that the Hervey system as pictured is relatively loud. However as an alternative to that setup, Hervey also sells a Magnaflow Tru-X muffler which is to be located behind the engine in the stock muffler location. The advantage of this setup is that is quieter than the dual muffler system pictured. This is the route I went with when I purchased a set of used Hervey headers. I went to a local exhaust shop and had the pipes custom bent. Between the used headers, the muffler and the pipes, the entire system set me back about $600. I've been very happy with the sound and the performance.

[David T]

It is hard to compare the different products offered by all of the vendors, each has slight differences, they are sourced form different places, and they offer different combinations. The DMC franchises are the closest to each other but they still have some nuances among them too. Generically the first step, what DMC calls Stage I, is an improved exhaust system. It will be a little louder and offer some performance improvement. It is the foundation for the next step which they call Stage II. That is more invasive and modifies the heads mostly but there are other tweaks too. This is where most of the differences come in as to what gets modified and how. There was to be a Stage III but AFAIK it has never been offered to the public. It adds positive aspiration (turbos). Each step was meant to build on the previous step so there was no loss of investment. Having driven a Stage II car it makes a very noticeable difference in the car's performance. If I had a Delorean and had to replace the motor I would consider getting a Stage II.

[Christian Dietrich]

Actually the Stage 3 is a supercharger, cams, head work and exhaust and DMC sold a few of them. I know its a very expensive upgrade. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170129/52069105e5a14c3d88992bcbff7c85b7.jpg

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[iflights]

Saw this price sheet earlier today on the DMCH site.

http://www.delorean.com/pdf/restored-options-2015.pdf

[Chris 16409]

Here in CA we need to be careful about aftermarket exhaust options. Our cars still require Emmisions testing, so having catalytic converters are essential. Even with a Spec 1 exhuast (has 2 converters) I just barely pass the Emmisions test. The Nitrous Oxide test is always the one that is problematic. On top of all that, CA keeps lowering the MAX allowed numbers for NOx. Eventually there will be a day where our cars won't pass in California.

[Redsquall]

Definite noticeable power difference and prep for the cams which would make a bigger difference. Slightly louder and deeper. Well worth the expense.

David, What is "prep for the cams"? Is that something that's between Stage 1 and II?

[Trstno1]

I already went down this road and had all the same questions in regard to stage 1 upgrade. Even though more expensive, I would definately go with either DMCH or the Euro exhaust. I went with DMCH and couldn't be happier! The sound is awesome and the power difference is very noticeable. The best part is that it looks awesome from any car behind you. Remember with Hervey you get what you pay for. I'm sure his would work fine as well....if it got to you complete and non damaged. Otherwise getting anything replaced by him might take a bit. To his there own though....

Good luck, and post pics of the final product!

[Gruffalo]

Pardon my ignorance, but where can I find more info on this Euro exhaust? Is it the same as the UK exhaust? Is it just a muffler or does it have headers?
Thanks


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[Chris 16409]

Here is the offering from Ed Uding:

http://www.delorean.eu/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=19_24_45&products_id=45054

UK Exhaust:

http://www.stainless-exhaust.com/
http://www.stainless-exhaust.com/finished-examples/?nggpage=2

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[eseethal]

I have the exhaust kit from Ed Uding. It is built nicely and looks very good. But the sound is for my taste a little loud and droning - especially at lower crusing RPMs.

Eugen

[Christian Dietrich]

Bad thing is with the U.K. exhaust i installed for my buddy Jeremy. It didn't come with any head to header gaskets, barely any hardware to attach it with. He ordered the gaskets and studs from Grady and we had to go to Lowes to buy the rest of the nuts and bolts. To make things worse, we also had to go and buy heat shield wrapping for the starter wires cause they come very close.
I myself have the DPI exhaust. Came with everything and starter to alternator wiring relocation wires that are longer to reposition them. Been on for 4 years now with no issues.. Its loud, sounds super great and looks very nice. Also i have no cats.

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[DMCVegas]

Here in CA we need to be careful about aftermarket exhaust options. Our cars still require Emmisions testing, so having catalytic converters are essential. Even with a Spec 1 exhuast (has 2 converters) I just barely pass the Emmisions test. The Nitrous Oxide test is always the one that is problematic. On top of all that, CA keeps lowering the MAX allowed numbers for NOx. Eventually there will be a day where our cars won't pass in California.

Well that also depends upon the specific type of catalytic converters used. Of which there are really 3 types: Federal 49-State Metalic, & Federal ARB, and then CARB-Approved. For California, you should only be using CARB approved ARB Catalytic converters. DMCH's setup is supposed to use CARB-Approved units to ensure they run clean, since they state it is supposed to be 50-state legal. I am not knocking other vendors at all, but you would need to ensure that their cats are also CARB-Approved to ensure they work efficiently enough to pass emissions there.

Beyond that, you then need to ensure that your car is engine is functioning properly. Too-high on the HCs (unburned fuel) or CO readings (burned fuel), and most people will lean the mixture out as a solution. That does lower those levels, but also causes higher combustion temps. Along with more atmospheric air being pulled in meaning more nitrogen, it results in higher NOx levels. If you're stuck in such a predicament of where you can't get an engine to pass because these numbers keep seesawing back and forth with no balance, you're likely dealing with an incomplete burn inside the combustion chambers that needs to be resolved first. Then all your numbers will fall into place.

It's not that a day will come when the cars will not pass, it's just that the tolerances for improperly tuned and maintained vehicles are being eliminated.

[sdg3205]

Before my lambda system was working my car ran open loop. I used to set off carbon monoxide detectors in under ground parking garages.

[Chris 16409]

I understand that a well running engine is necessary. I am referring to the state LOWERING the allowable Emmisions gases for the test. If the car passes the NO at 950 but the state lowers the standard to 850 then there's nothing you can do. It's not the car that's getting less efficient, it's the standard that's being changed. I've reviewed my past smog reports. There is a big difference from the late 1990's to now. It was much easier to pass an emissions test in 1999 than 2017. They keep getting stricter and that was my point. Since I've onwed my car the allowable NO Emmisions has dropped by 30 points!! Here's two reports first from 2009 and second from 2015.

48742

48743

We can't afford another 30 point drop in allowable NO Emmisions.

[Nicholas R]

Before my lambda system was working my car ran open loop. I used to set off carbon monoxide detectors in under ground parking garages.

How would you set the mixture while you were running open loop?

I ran open loop for years before my engine swap, and my engine ran great. The first time I set the mixture was using a friends exhaust gas analyzer. From then, I used to check it periodically just using the O2 sensor. I had an O2 sensor still installed, just not hooked up to the Lambda system. I ran a wire to it with an alligator clip in the engine compartment so that if I wanted to check the mixture, I connected the clip to a meter and checked the voltage.

[sdg3205]

How would you set the mixture while you were running open loop?

I ran open loop for years before my engine swap, and my engine ran great. The first time I set the mixture was using a friends exhaust gas analyzer. From then, I used to check it periodically just using the O2 sensor. I had an O2 sensor still installed, just not hooked up to the Lambda system. I ran a wire to it with an alligator clip in the engine compartment so that if I wanted to check the mixture, I connected the clip to a meter and checked the voltage.

I didn't set anything. I was an naive, uninformed new owner. I had no idea how anything worked. About a year later i found my lambda system wasn't even operating because the relay pins had backed out. Whoever set the mixture in open loop did so long before me and is probably responsible for my melted cat.

[DMCVegas]

I understand that a well running engine is necessary. I am referring to the state LOWERING the allowable Emmisions gases for the test. If the car passes the NO at 950 but the state lowers the standard to 850 then there's nothing you can do. It's not the car that's getting less efficient, it's the standard that's being changed. I've reviewed my past smog reports. There is a big difference from the late 1990's to now. It was much easier to pass an emissions test in 1999 than 2017. They keep getting stricter and that was my point. Since I've onwed my car the allowable NO Emmisions has dropped by 30 points!! Here's two reports first from 2009 and second from 2015.

48742

48743


There is something not working correctly with your engine though. Check it out: Take a look at the readings here. Your idle speed CO% was slashed in half, and your 2,500 RPM was reduced by 4 fifths! While at the same time of course, your NOx dilution shot up 274ppm @ idle! Likewise your 2,500 RPM levels shot up as well. Of course this is assuming a stationary, two-speed test, and has no listings on your HCs or your CO2 & O2 percentages.

It's hard to say exactly what the formula is for calculating the emissions levels, as well as the averages. Are the tolerance drops simply because of tighter emissions controls? Or are they influenced directly in proportion of the Average readings collected from tested vehicles? If the latter, that actually makes sense. As less efficient engines are being removed from the road as time goes on, we would certainly see the average emissions of registered vehicles drop as well.



We can't afford another 30 point drop in allowable NO Emmisions.

Honestly, you could actually afford another 100ppm drop in allowable Nitrous Oxide emissions. Your engine has the ability to remain compliant, but right now it would fail because it's just not running correctly. Which in this case, it's running way too lean. If you haven't tampered with the CO Mixture screw, then you've got a vacuum leak somewhere that needs to be corrected.

The only reason it was "easier" to pass emissions in the past is because they were more tolerant of poorly running vehicles back then.

[David T]

California is a special case. Eventually they will legislate you out of legality. I consider that a taking but in California they say it's legal. So you own a car that was legally purchased in that State but you can no longer register it or drive it in that State because they lowered the emissions levels so low ANY car that is old enough can never pass. Most States take the position that as long as a car can pass the standards that were in place at the time the car was manufactured, it can be registered and driven in that State. Remember this when you vote. Your State representatives passed State laws that allow this nonsense. The State has no right to prevent you from using what was legally purchased in that State without due compensation at fair market value.

[vwdmc16]

Well that also depends upon the specific type of catalytic converters used. Of which there are really 3 types: Federal 49-State Metalic, & Federal ARB, and then CARB-Approved. For California, you should only be using CARB approved ARB Catalytic converters. DMCH's setup is supposed to use CARB-Approved units to ensure they run clean, since they state it is supposed to be 50-state legal. I am not knocking other vendors at all, but you would need to ensure that their cats are also CARB-Approved to ensure they work efficiently enough to pass emissions there......



At the moment there are Zero CARB approved exhaust systems other than OEM for Deloreans.

Id love to find a smog shop that would pass my DmcH stage 1 exhaust, but no they see the stock worn 35 year old system and will give it a thumbs up. They see a modern, well built stainless steel system with not one but two modern and fresh Catalysts that let the engine breathe and work more efficiently, Fail!


Its so difficult and expensive to get a damn EO# for something that is clearly better unless there is a huge demand and money to push it through.

[Chris 16409]

There is something not working correctly with your engine though. Check it out: Take a look at the readings here. Your idle speed CO% was slashed in half, and your 2,500 RPM was reduced by 4 fifths! While at the same time of course, your NOx dilution shot up 274ppm @ idle! Likewise your 2,500 RPM levels shot up as well. Of course this is assuming a stationary, two-speed test, and has no listings on your HCs or your CO

Sorry should have mentioned that the 2009 test was with a stick Exhaust System and the test in 2015 was with a DPI SPEC I system. That's why there is a difference. The SPEC I cats brought the CO down but aren't as efficient at removing NOx. My car has passed emissions with SPEC I ever since it's been installed in 2010. In fact my 2015 emissions test had the lowest numbers since I installed SPEC I, I I don't know what's going on there. I've set my dwell correctly with a dwell meter.

[Chris 16409]

I'd love to find a smog shop that would pass my DmcH stage 1 exhaust, but no they see the stock worn 35 year old system and will give it a thumbs up. They see a modern, well built stainless steel system with not one but two modern and fresh Catalysts that let the engine breathe and work more efficiently, Fail!

Hey Clint, DMC-CA sells Stage 1 exhausts so you would think they would get them to pass!!! Anyway, I've had luck with smog stations that do not know what a DeLorean exhaust is supposed to look like. They will pass the actual emissions test, but shops in the "know" will fail the visual inspection portion. It shouldn't matter what it looks like, as long as it passes by the numbers.

[DMCVegas]

At the moment there are Zero CARB approved exhaust systems other than OEM for Deloreans.

Id love to find a smog shop that would pass my DmcH stage 1 exhaust, but no they see the stock worn 35 year old system and will give it a thumbs up. They see a modern, well built stainless steel system with not one but two modern and fresh Catalysts that let the engine breathe and work more efficiently, Fail!


Its so difficult and expensive to get a damn EO# for something that is clearly better unless there is a huge demand and money to push it through.

If that is the case, then you need to find a new shop.

Replacement of the exhaust system itself isn't the problem. The reason why there are not any "CARB Approved" systems is because that doesn't fall under their jurisdiction. CARB is strictly concerned about the Emissions Controls that were equipped with a vehicle. That is why you have "cat-back" systems which are legal to install, as well as intake systems.

Legally you are allowed to replace the Catalytic Converter so long as it is warranted. This is where it gets tricky because you're *supposed* to have the work done by a garage with the paperwork stating that it was due to a failed part. But after 7 years, or the manufacturer's warranty period has expired, you are then legally allowed to replace your catalytic converters, provided it is necessary (though theft excludes that time requirement). CARB recognizes this, and as such has an approved list of aftermarket Catalytic Converters. And yes, they even have an approved parts list of aftermarket Cats for the DeLorean DMC-12! https://ssl.arb.ca.gov/PartsSearchTool/CatalystSearchTool.aspx

Now the models that CARB approves are Airtek, otherwise now known as Catco. DMCH by comparison appears to use Magnaflow, BUT looking at pictures they do indeed appear to have the CA EO/Approval information stamped right into them. Interestingly enough, however, Josh's SPEC I system uses the Catco units, and does indeed state that it is 50-State legal. Which the O2 bungs and use of Catco's clearly makes it.

What IS illegal in California (and some states like Nevada) is when you tamper with, defeat, or otherwise outright remove the approved emissions control systems that were installed at the factory. They positively MUST remain in place. For our cars this means:

Catalytic Converter.
Vapor Recovery System.
LAMBDA Emissions Control System.
Warm Up Regulator.
ALL vacuum lines and hoses.
Inlet Restrictor on fuel tank.
Functioning Gas Cap.

Now as long as all of those items remain in place, even if they are aftermarket items, it doesn't matter what your intake or exhaust system looks like, or is. The only 2 things that matter are that the emissions equipment is still in place, and the engine passes smog. Granted now some of the smog check shops are probably scared of touching aftermarket stuff for fear of screwing up and loosing their license. Hell, for years I went to the same guy for all my cars. 3rd year with the DeLorean, and he shoves a mirror under my car to look for the catalytic converter. I told him the cat was right there, he could see it in the engine compartment like he always did when checking for it. He said a few days prior, the state inspectors sent an undercover vehicle there for him to inspect. He did everything else like checking the gas cap, and verifying emissions correctly. BUT he forgot to use the mirror to verify the presence of the cat under the car for the visual inspection. Because of that, he got a citation. So from now on he was going to go strictly by the book. So he always followed all of my vacuum lines after that too, and still insisted upon using a mirror to look at the bottom side of the cat. Which is precisely all that any smog technician needs to do before testing. Just verify the presence of the Emissions Label, and then ensure that the vacuum lines and other equipment listed on it are present and functioning on the car. If they decline to do that, then it's time to find another shop.

[DMCVegas]

Sorry should have mentioned that the 2009 test was with a stick Exhaust System and the test in 2015 was with a DPI SPEC I system. That's why there is a difference. The SPEC I cats brought the CO down but aren't as efficient at removing NOx. My car has passed emissions with SPEC I ever since it's been installed in 2010. In fact my 2015 emissions test had the lowest numbers since I installed SPEC I, I I don't know what's going on there. I've set my dwell correctly with a dwell meter.

No worries, man. But it does look as though there is something going on with that fuel mixture. Dwell is good and all when you know everything else is working, but you really need to go by the factory procedure of disabling LAMBDA, setting a static coolant temp, cleaning sensors, etc. That way you eliminate all the variables.

[mr_maxime]

Well I dont have any emissions testing in Alabama, so if anyone has a catless DPI system I'd be interested in one. Exhaust is already leaking anyways so good thing there are no emissions here.

[vwdmc16]

Hey Clint, DMC-CA sells Stage 1 exhausts so you would think they would get them to pass!!!.....




Ive spoken with Espry Directly, its not legal. He did say there is a new one in the works that will be retrofittable to their 2nd Gen Stage1 exhaust that will be CARB approved, but im not holding my breath for that and I have the older generation anyways.

Besides changing the manifolds to tubular headers is not legal in this state either sadly...

[vwdmc16]

If that is the case, then you need to find a new shop.

Replacement of the exhaust system itself isn't the problem. The reason why there are not any "CARB Approved" systems is because that doesn't fall under their jurisdiction. CARB is strictly concerned about the Emissions Controls that were equipped with a vehicle. That is why you have "cat-back" systems which are legal to install, as well as intake systems.

Legally you are allowed to replace the Catalytic Converter so long as it is warranted. This is where it gets tricky because you're *supposed* to have the work done by a garage with the paperwork stating that it was due to a failed part. But after 7 years, or the manufacturer's warranty period has expired, you are then legally allowed to replace your catalytic converters, provided it is necessary (though theft excludes that time requirement). CARB recognizes this, and as such has an approved list of aftermarket Catalytic Converters.....


Absolutely I need to find another shop. The problem is locally ive been having trouble finding any shop that wants to touch it at all, the places that will are wise and will research what this car should have....

One of the places that I try to take it to did not know deloreans but would do it anyways. I had my stage 1 exhaust installed at the time, they failed it immediately because they saw that it had two catalytic converters. Not just the one that the book told him it had.


I know exactly what you mean about these alternative California legal cats that you can buy from the aftermarket. I've gone through a lot of that process trying to smog old BMW E30 since they have trouble passing smog with their old catalytic converters these days.

Sure I can replace just the muffler, but that is not going to unlock the full free flowing power potential my engine may have. I really need full headers and dual Inlet to a muffler. When someone says they have changed the exhaust I take that as meaning they replaced everything, not just the muffler.

But the fact remains that I still would only be allowed to install one of these aftermarket catalytic converters, this is not something I wish to do since what I'm really after is a proper dual exhaust system like DPI or dmch. I would much rather use a factory catalytic converter which is still available brand new for just a bit more money and will last far longer than any of these cheap aftermarket Replacements possibly could.

[DMCVegas]

Sure I can replace just the muffler, but that is not going to unlock the full free flowing power potential my engine may have. I really need full headers and dual Inlet to a muffler. When someone says they have changed the exhaust I take that as meaning they replaced everything, not just the muffler.

But the fact remains that I still would only be allowed to install one of these aftermarket catalytic converters, this is not something I wish to do since what I'm really after is a proper dual exhaust system like DPI or dmch. I would much rather use a factory catalytic converter which is still available brand new for just a bit more money and will last far longer than any of these cheap aftermarket Replacements possibly could.

Oh, no. That's not what I'm saying at all. What I am saying is that the Catco Catalytic Converters ARE CARB-approved for use in the DMC-12 application. The rest of the exhaust system, as long as it has the LAMBDA system in place is perfectly legal.



Besides changing the manifolds to tubular headers is not legal in this state either sadly...

Nope, that's not true at all. The only law about muffler differences is that you cannot install a muffler that exceeds 95db, or the noise level of the OEM muffler, whichever is greater. And that cut-outs and whistle tips are totally illegal too. You can't have either installed, even if they're not functioning. Check this out: CA. V.C. 27156, Section h, along with subsections 1 & 2. It states that no vehicle's exhaust system for mufflers and emissions controls can be modified, UNLESS the equipment being installed either doesn't interfere with existing factory emissions items, or if it replaces them, they either maintain or improve the emissions levels. You can read it all right here for yourself. (http://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displayText.xhtml?lawCode=VEH&division=12.&title=&part=&chapter=5.&article=2.)

There is absolutely no law on the books that says you cannot install aftermarket manifolds, let alone a dual exhaust system. Nor does it state that you cannot install an additional catalytic convertor. You must have a functional one installed, and you can replace it with a CARB-approved model. But California has no law that says you cannot install a second cat, nor install an entirely new system. You just need to ensure that your emissions equipment remains in place and that you comply with the noise law of 95db. Hell, even if you did get a citation for excessive noise, you can take the vehicle to a shop to get certified as legal with an affixed label.

But manifolds are perfectly legal to modify. And the law totally allows for the installation of additional equipment that improves emissions on cars. That's why CARB has started approving EFI conversion kits for pre-1988 vehicles.

The shops you've gone to absolutely have the right to refuse service to you. Again, I also understand why they'd rather play it safe, and arguing with them is pointless, but with all due respect, they don't know jack about the law. Don't listen to them.

[vwdmc16]

Im afraid that is simply not true in the real world, I have a friend that works for CARB, ( he is an engineer that spent years building a set up to allow 1.8T vw engines to be swapped into old vw vanagons. We began a short study ourselves to discover a possible engine conversion for Deloreans, still haven't found anything suitable that could be profitable, but that is another story) and I inquired at great detail about what is allowed in the eyes of the law for CA emissions.

Simply put: EVERYTHING from engine to cat MUST be OEM, or E.O. approved and not to be modifed at all.

If not then Why is there CA E.O. certified headers for cars like mustangs? Here is quick an example, scroll down it has a EO #

https://m.summitracing.com/parts/big-12124flt

"Unless the aftermarket headers you purchase and install have an EO stamp, meaning they have been tested by the California Air Resource Board and been issued an Executive Order number, yes they will fail the smog inspection; as a tampered emission component. Exhaust headers, not to mention the entire AIR Air injection system is an "emissions component". Any modification to the headers, intake manifold, or exhaust manifold, including removal of a "Y" tube from the exhaust pipes (if equipped) is considered an emissions tamper. Your vehicle will fail the smog inspection even before the tailpipe exhaust is checked"



Its a very stupid law, but it was put in place to be a blanket protection against adding unknown variables to the throughly tested components that they have approved. This is California, this state is not fucking around with that stuff anymore

Im a professional automotive mechanic and ive had many smog tech friends, ive asked all of them aboit loopholes, we all have to follow these rules that we dont agree with.

Do you have first hand experience with tubular headers and dual aftermarket cats passing on your Delorean? I would love to hear how/where that happened because for the last 5 years ive been working to make it happen but not been able to.

[vwdmc16]

As for that legislation link you posted, the first half yes talks about mufflers and noise only. Im not talking about mufflers or sound at all. And the rest of the article mentions Nothing about Catalytic converters but does state:

"No person shall operate or leave standing upon a highway a motor vehicle that is required to be equipped with a motor vehicle pollution control device under Part 5 (commencing with Section 43000) of Division 26 of the Health and Safety Code or any other certified motor vehicle pollution control device required by any other state law or any rule or regulation adopted pursuant to that law, or required to be equipped with a motor vehicle pollution control device pursuant to the National Emission Standards Act (42 U.S.C. Secs. 7521 to 7550, inclusive) and the standards and regulations adopted pursuant to that federal act, unless the motor vehicle is equipped with the required motor vehicle pollution control device that is correctly installed and in operating condition. No person shall disconnect, modify, or alter any such required device.
(c) No person shall install, sell, offer for sale, or advertise any device, apparatus, or mechanism intended for use with, or as a part of, a required motor vehicle pollution control device or system that alters or modifies the original design or performance of the motor vehicle pollution control device or system"



Installing non approved headers IS altering the Original design and performance of the pollution control device.


Do you have a reference where it states you can add cats or change manifolds?

Again in my experience in the real world, At the end of the day, its up to the smog tech who sees the car has Two cats, not one and since it does not follow the requirements dictated by the state and Federal government, they HAVE TO fail it.

[DaraSue]

Mine came with a DPI Spec I exhaust, and while I've never driven a stock one to compare it to, I feel like it (the car in general) performs better than its reputation. On my last drive to CA from SLC, I got over some 6000' passes without even downshifting out of 5th, and it passed emissions (Salt Lake City, pretty stringent) on the first try.

[DMCVegas]

You know what? You're absolutely correct. CARB does state on their website (https://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/aftermkt/replace.htm) that the headers MUST have an EO to be legal for street use in California.

Then there is this half-assed written law.

(h) This section shall not apply to an alteration, modification, or modifying device, apparatus, or mechanism found by resolution of the State Air Resources Board to do either of the following:
(1) Not to reduce the effectiveness of a required motor vehicle pollution control device.
(2) To result in emissions from the modified or altered vehicle that are at levels that comply with existing state or federal standards for that model-year of the vehicle being modified or converted.

It's not that the devices alters the performance at all. The damn car could actually run cleaner, but CARB would ban the more efficient parts because they're not approved. And if you can't even modify the design at all, you couldn't add a second cat. So I stand corrected on all counts.

[Chris 16409]

The state doesn't care unfortunately. They would rather see all old cars off the road. Like you said, even if Emmisions are improved with new equipment, it doesn't matter. All vehicles prior to 1976 for require a Smog check. The DeLorean would have been eventually exempt, but they froze the year at pre. 1976 cars. The funny thing is, there are so many more polluting cars on the road than the DeLorean. Not to mention all those gas powered leaf blowers that belch all sorts of pollutants into the air. The state will want to regulate those next!!!